Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

[WispBae]

Advice against Samus? Maybe its just For Glory modes stag choice limited to FD, but I find her among the most annoying matchups when playing DH.

• Gunmen seem a lot less useful in here than other MUs, since just her missiles kill them in one hit. I can still shield myself from her projectiles, but I can't use them to pressure her like I do to most everyone else.
• Her UpB OoS terrorizes me at high percents.
• Missiles seem to destroy my clay pigeons very easily
• Her Charged Shot is scary to go up against wen I try to recover back, and scary to go against in general.

Samus is not an easy feat for Doggy, as she can do what he does, and with some debate, better. FD will most likely work against you. Never go there with her.

Approaching with gunmen will be you best bet, I think, once you land the fastest gunmen. Or a can from above while shielding. Once you get in, NEVER LET HER LAND. Don't let her charge the beam, don't let her set-up. You want fast, safe punishes every time she lands. Dash attacks, jabs, grabs, don't go for big punishes in the early percent.

 

[Funkermonster]

Another question: In a ditto match against another Doggy who spams projectiles without moving a muscle, is there a reliable way to deflect the cans back at them so I can advance on and bypass their zoning? Normally, I can advance onto my opponents myself and place pressure on them by jumping while shooting a can/clay pigeon and forcing reactions with gunmen, and approaching usually isn't all that problematic for me. Against another DHD who shoots his projectiles without moving or even trying to pressure/harass me, we have the same moveset but I rarely come across other duck hunts and I'm not used to fighting myself. From my time playing DH, I've learned that he isn't really as good at zoning as tons of people make him out to be since his projectiles are too slow, and I've switched from a campy playstyle to a carefully aggressive/semi-offensive gameplan using my projectiles for pressure, mindgames, approaching people myself instead; unless I'm facing heavies or characters with poor approaches like or , then I go back to camping. When I fight another Duck Hunt on For Glory who does just that, my passive aggressive style quits working and then I get zoned out myself since I don't really fight against other duck hunts very often at all, let alone ditto matches. When I do fight a campy one though, its mostly just the cans that grind my gears when I try to approach when I try to jump I get hit by them, the other two projectiles don't really bug me as much since they just there like couch potatoes while shooting them; no shorthops, foxtrots or most any movement. I know that the can can be reflected so it'll be shot the other way, but when I'm playing Duck Hunt myself I don't know how to since I have low experience with this ditto. I heard somebody once say here that he finds in DHD dittos, its usually the less campy Duck Hunt who wins the ditto, but I've also heard statements that say otherwise (even though I do end up winning in the end most of the time).

In short: Against another Duck Hunt who just camps with no harassment attempts, is it possible for me to stop their cans the other way and keep playing (careful) aggressively like I normally do, or should just abandon that and do the same thing they're doing? I mean, since many other characters can get past his zoning, can Duck Hunt do it to himself?

 

[BSME/misc]

Another question: In a ditto match against another Doggy who spams projectiles without moving a muscle, is there a reliable way to deflect the cans back at them so I can advance on and bypass their zoning? Normally, I can advance onto my opponents myself and place pressure on them by jumping while shooting a can/clay pigeon and forcing reactions with gunmen, and approaching usually isn't all that problematic for me. Against another DHD who shoots his projectiles without moving or even trying to pressure/harass me, we have the same moveset but I rarely come across other duck hunts and I'm not used to fighting myself. From my time playing DH, I've learned that he isn't really as good at zoning as tons of people make him out to be since his projectiles are too slow, and I've switched from a campy playstyle to a carefully aggressive/semi-offensive gameplan using my projectiles for pressure, mindgames, approaching people myself instead; unless I'm facing heavies or characters with poor approaches like or , then I go back to camping. When I fight another Duck Hunt on For Glory who does just that, my passive aggressive style quits working and then I get zoned out myself since I don't really fight against other duck hunts very often at all, let alone ditto matches. When I do fight a campy one though, its mostly just the cans that grind my gears when I try to approach when I try to jump I get hit by them, the other two projectiles don't really bug me as much since they just there like couch potatoes while shooting them; no shorthops, foxtrots or most any movement. I know that the can can be reflected so it'll be shot the other way, but when I'm playing Duck Hunt myself I don't know how to since I have low experience with this ditto. I heard somebody once say here that he finds in DHD dittos, its usually the less campy Duck Hunt who wins the ditto, but I've also heard statements that say otherwise (even though I do end up winning in the end most of the time).

In short: Against another Duck Hunt who just camps with no harassment attempts, is it possible for me to stop their cans the other way and keep playing (careful) aggressively like I normally do, or should just abandon that and do the same thing they're doing? I mean, since many other characters can get past his zoning, can Duck Hunt do it to himself?

LOL I was the other Doggy. But seriously a DH ditto is unlike most MU's as it's simply a game of capture the flag with the flag being the center of the stage. The other DH has to approach eventually and the one in the center doesn't have to since he can just pop cans and pigeons all day. Lazy yes, effective yes. I think DH is REALLY good at zoning out most characters save for a few like Sonic, Captain Falcon and a few others. There are times where you have to maneuver to reset the position so you can keep zoning but that's just my play style and it works.

The best time to reverse the direction of the can is when it's on the ground because short of a short hop clay pigeon there aren't many safe ways to do it or risking the other DH player detonating earlier anticipating an attack.

 

[Spirst]

Duck Hunt MUs are probably one of the most grating/boring MUs in the game. It really is like capture the flag and then camp the heck out of the other DH once you've got a stock lead. I almost always prefer to switch to Greninja against DH rather than do the ditto.

 

[Funkermonster]

LOL I was the other Doggy

Well that came outta nowhere But technically it wasn't just you, it was pretty much plenty of other Duck Hunts I meet on FG, and I actually met a total of 3 day before playing sets against you that day, which was coincidental since I don't normally come across DH on For Glory very often (and most of of those opponents I did encounter were rather underwhelming when I'm not playing Duck Hunt). You kinda spooked me there.... But seriously if you were the only other Doggy I speak of, I'd probably have nothing to speak about lol since it'd have happened with only one other guy

LI think DH is REALLY good at zoning out most characters save for a few like Sonic, Captain Falcon and a few others. There are times where you have to maneuver to reset the position so you can keep zoning but that's just my play style and it works.

Ehh.. I know you beat me like 5/6 times those two days ago, but I would say that's a questionable statement as I've heard and learned otherwise.

From someone critiquing my gameplay videos, since I used to camp like you did: SH OoS nair and SH FF bair are good KO moves you should make more use of. You could also use some more general mobility. In particular, I noticed you had a tendency to remain stagnant as you shot your projectiles. SH gunmen/clay pigeon and jumping with a can being shot are all good ways to add pressure to your opponent. If you were to incorporate projectiles into your game to build momentum rather than seemingly remain stagnant while doing so, you'd start to overwhelm the opponent. DHs projectiles are generally slow, so it's not like you can camp with Falco's SHDL back in Brawl. I also noticed you sometimes became a bit too smash heavy which isn't a good idea for DH as his smashes should be used as general surprise mixups and heavy punishes rather than making it telegraphed. Also, to every Duck Hunt, USE THE WALL JUMP. Duck Hunt's recovery is really not that great and if you're recovering low and vertically, it's pretty much a stage spike/meteor smash against a competent opponent as DH is left completely helpless and locked in the move. If you can wall jump (works well with walled omegas), it gives you some horizontal/vertical distance and sometimes you won't even need to recover as you'll snap the ledge that way.

Basically for the green words, this why I was trying to approach you myself rather than camp back, and why I was playing DH offensively in the first place.

Even then, DH is pretty lacking. (this guy was basically saying he thinks Duck Hunt is Low Tier, to which I disagreed and made my own response to it)

Folks have this idea in their heads that DH is really hard to get in on, but that's only really true of some of the cast. Any character with good aerial mobility that isn't too big can actually get around his Trick Shot and Clay Shooting without too much trouble. Trick Shot would be utterly broken if someone like, say, Diddy Kong had it... but DH just doesn't have the tools to capitalise on it very much. Their tilts are fairly laggy, yet have unspectacular range and power, and (save for UTilt, which has poor range) don't set up for anything much.

DH also has trouble setting up kill moves well. All three smash attacks have good kill power... but have that awkward issue where sometimes, for no apparent reason, the last hit will whiff. Bair has an awkward hitbox, and is incredibly telegraphed. Uair is easily one of DH's best moves, but even that has issues where the first two hits will connect, and the third one won't. That level of unreliability is never good.

And the recovery, just... wow. It's like the bad parts of Dedede's Super Jump, mixed with the bad parts of Brawl Zelda's Farore's Wind, minus any sort of hitbox to dissuade opponents from attacking you. If they're knocked off-stage in such a way that they can't get back with just a mid-air jump, there is no good reason that they shouldn't lose the stock right there. And their aerials, as mentioned, have huge blindspots, so any aerial that hits at least somewhat diagonally works incredibly well against them off-stage.

DH still fares decently against bulky, slow characters, but against the cast as a whole? Not so much.

While I was in disagreement with most everything that dude was saying and I made a huuuuge response saying otherwise, I did think he had a bit of a point when he said the bold part (and also the recovery thing, I paaartly agreed with that...) about zoning being effectively only against some of the cast.



I don't see Duck Hunt as a very zoning-heavy character. With the exception of the gunmen (which still aren't fast unless the fast gunmen custom is used), his projectiles can be pretty easily interrupted and are generally slow/can be beaten by a disjointed hitbox. The Can can be hit so that it shoots the other way (though not the end of the world) and the clay pigeon travels at a relatively slow velocity/is broken by a disjointed hitbox. Duck Hunt functions best, in my opinion, as a pressure/trap character. For all the people who keep touting Duck Hunt as a long-range zoning character, I wonder how much experience they have with him. As said above (I think he was referring to the counter-post I made to the other guy, but I dunno), unless it's a heavy or a character with very poor approach options, DH as a long range zoner just doesn't work well and you generally gain nothing from doing so because of the awkward projectiles.


But hey, if your playstyle works like that and you enjoy doing it, by all means, keep doing it. Just saying that I think its easier said than done for those words I heard. Maybe I said a little too much there....

But seriously a DH ditto is unlike most MU's as it's simply a game of capture the flag with the flag being the center of the stage. The other DH has to approach eventually and the one in the center doesn't have to since he can just pop cans and pigeons all day. Lazy yes, effective yes.

The best time to reverse the direction of the can is when it's on the ground because short of a short hop clay pigeon there aren't many safe ways to do it or risking the other DH player detonating earlier anticipating an attack.

Ok now that's where I'm at loss for words, I've got nothin. I gotta remember that one...

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Duck Hunt's close range options are far too limited...most of his moves are best at mid to long range plus his smash attacks are far too weak to do much good(aside from his charged side smash....but that can be the case with a lot of characters)unless You've already done enough damage to send them flying with even the simplest smash attack in the arsenal although i can see how his up smash and forward smash can be good(the charged version has some decent range on it)

his arsenal gives him no chance to be anything except a keep away character but hey what do i know I'm just speaking from how it looks to me I'm not an expert or anything on the matter

just saying they didn't do DH any favors if they didn't want him to be a projectile character

 

[Diamond DHD]

Duck Hunt's close range options are far too limited...most of his moves are best at mid to long range plus his smash attacks are far too weak to do much good(aside from his charged side smash....but that can be the case with a lot of characters)unless You've already done enough damage to send them flying with even the simplest smash attack in the arsenal

his arsenal gives him no chance to be anything except a keep away character

I disagree, he has plenty of options, he has a good jab, good aerials and his down-throw is okay for comboing. His perfect pivot is great too since his smashes come out quickly and it goes a good distance. His projectiles complement his close range game, close range moves can instantly combo in to a projectile when they're knocked away.

 

[DunnoBro]

I disagree, he has plenty of options, he has a good jab, good aerials and his down-throw is okay for comboing. His perfect pivot is great too since his smashes come out quickly and it goes a good distance. His projectiles complement his close range game, close range moves can instantly combo in to a projectile when they're knocked away.

Nah he's right. DHD has few good options for dealing with super close opponents while they have the momentum.

Jab, grab, and nair are the best ones though they're only decent still.

He's a zoner though. You're playing him wrong if you're at close-range while you don't have the momentum.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Nah he's right. DHD has few good options for dealing with super close opponents while they have the momentum.

Jab, grab, and nair are the best ones though they're only decent still.

He's a zoner though. You're playing him wrong if you're at close-range while you don't have the momentum.

i picture DHD just like sir arthur from MVC3/UMVC3 sure you can get in close with arthur if you want just for that downward spike but it's not really worth the risk especially considering that the character's arsenal is mostly made up of projectile's

i don't see why it's so hard to picture DHD as a zoner/keep away character.....his move set doesn't lie

 

[DunnoBro]

i picture DHD just like sir arthur from MVC3/UMVC3 sure you can get in close with arthur if you want just for that downward spike but it's not really worth the risk especially considering that the character's arsenal is mostly made up of projectile's

i don't see why it's so hard to picture DHD as a zoner/keep away character.....his move set doesn't lie

He is a zoner but that doesn't mean he doesn't ever go in. He needs to go in for mix-ups and added pressure, especially shield pressure otherwise they're free to just sit in theirs. A duck hunt that plays the keep away game to the point it'd be considered the bulk of his strategy would not come across as a very effective player to me.

 

[BSME/misc]

He is a zoner but that doesn't mean he doesn't ever go in. He needs to go in for mix-ups and added pressure, especially shield pressure otherwise they're free to just sit in theirs. A duck hunt that plays the keep away game to the point it'd be considered the bulk of his strategy would not come across as a very effective player to me.

The question is where do you draw the line between going in and camping for different MUs? I know attempting to gimp yoshi or Rosalina is always a bad time with yoshi's super armor on his jump and Rosa's stupid luma shenanigans. My thought process is to maintain stage control and only go in if they're about mid range trying to hide in their shield but that usually removes the option of early kills via charged forward smash set ups when they're trying to come back on the stage. I'm going to experiment more being aggressive though.

 

[Spirst]

DH does best, in my opinion, as a pressure/mixup character. Like I've said before, he has a decent zoning game but it wont carry him all the way against competent players who realize his projectiles aren't overly hard to work around. The keepaway game is good vs big characters like Bowser but overall, the strategy as the staple of the character is not a good idea. DH can add immense pressure with disjointed hitboxes, projectile harassment, and his grab game (which is good for the kind of character he is). The line to be drawn is rather fuzzy considering DH's lack of polarization. Vs a character like Rosalina, it helps to be aggressive since the zoning game won't do much with Luma there and gravitational pull being annoying (though not as big a deal as it's claimed). Vs characters like Sheik, I also don't see zoning as overly helpful since any whiffed clay pigeon/Trick shot generally means you're going to get punished. Sheik is actually one of our harder MUs I'm sure considering she's hard to gimp, has so many frame advantages, is safe in almost everything she does, has quick speed, and can be hard to KO since our smashes aren't too great (and don't even work sometimes). DH's kind of like Mii Gunner in that he uses his projectiles to find an opening to exploit with grabs/close-range shenanigans as opposed to someone like Villager who is more content to keep people out.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

and yet his close range options are a bit pathetic....logic apparently doesn't work with duck hunt
he doesn't have great keep away tools yet his close range moves are almost non existent

is duck hunt secretly bowser jr?

 

[DunnoBro]

Being good at super close range or keep away range are not the only aspects a character is measured. Duck hunt has fine close range options, the only issues he has are at super close range where he desperately needs combo/momentum breakers like sex kicks or escape options like sonic's spring. However, even so he's one of the harder characters to combo/juggle in general due to the can.

I'll say it again, duck hunt probably has the best neutral game of any character in sm4sh. But he suffers during pressure, both when giving and receiving, and likely needs to take on very specific methods per matchup to compensate for it.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Hmm, I think rush down characters are DH's hardest matchups like Sonic, Sheik, Fox, ZSS. If they don't give you time to setup, you have to play a completely different style & punish OOS a lot more w/ jabs/grabs/ect...

I noticed this today when playing DHD in tournament today, I was so surprised by the other guy's aggression it took me a game to adapt.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea, though stage choice is extremely important too. Never take sonic, sheik, fox, etc to FD or town and city. Take ZSS anywhere but battlefield, or town and city. Her vertical string and juggling potential are ridiculous.

Do whatever seems to hinder and slow down the characters general playstyle most, don't focus too much on what DHD wants since he can adapt to any stage almost. (Castle siege x.x)

At least that's how I'm starting to feel.

 

[WarioWaft]

Hey all, I've been addicted to Duck Hunt this past weekend! I'm a Wario Main but man Duck Hunt is awesome! Has really found a place in my heart.

When I use Wario the matches are interesting because I have to hustle a lot and because his fsmash is delayed I have to really on a Waft KO often.

But with Duck Hunt I can completely take control of a match and just completely keep my opponents guessing on their toes not knowing what's going to come next.

So these are the match ups after like 200 or so matches on 1v1 glory that I've found.

------


Captain Falcon - Can neutralize his speed with projectiles. Make him move so fast his player won't know how to react or what to do and catch him off guard. The clay pigeon can neutralize his ground falcon kick if you time it to hit him halfway before his kick. Once the kick is in midstream it breaks it.

Ganondorf - Almost too easy. I played a really good Ganondorf who knew how to move around efficiently but all I had to do was keep my distance and from there it was game set match.

Bowser/DK - Man felt sorry for the guys who mained these. One dude had DK and while he made it close he lost 5 times in a row. Same for a Bowser guy who had it in his user name and mained and he just kept coming back for more and kept getting disappointed. He lucked on one match because I sd (was trying to fly but for some reason it threw a pigeon). These two are probably the best to go against. DHD's quickness and projectiles will hit them 99% of the time if you keep your distance.

FOX - One of my favorites. Whenever I beat someone 2 in a row they go to Fox because they think they're going to utilize that reflector shield faster than I can throw items. Once they realize it was all for nothing I just start grabbing and throwing, keep shooting the can. Anticipate the Fox illusion comebacks heights. Throwing a can in the air he'll hit the can and destroy it every time if he tries to illusion over your head to get back on the map.

Marth/Ike - Can handle them pretty well. Projectiles and distance gives them headaches. Start using the gunmen to bait a shield and grab and throw them around.

Link - It took me a while to find a good strategy against Link. Because he can spam projectiles as fast as DHD. The good news is Link is slow and his moves have a lot of delay, so I can take full advantage of it. Also I love using the boomerang gust against them, throw myself right in the gust and use any smash and he can't time it because it shoots so fast.

Zelda - One of the tougher ones I had to go against. Her teleportation annoys the hell out of me and her reflector thing can mess up my timing sometimes.

Ness - Another one that took me a while to figure out. I had to play enough matches against Ness to see which moves of mine canceled out his and vice versa. I've now found a solid strategy against Ness. Sometimes players get too PK Fire happy, a quick dodge and pigeon will keep him honest. He tries to switch to the aerial game you throw the cans up to screw with his head and don't forget to utilize the Uair.
King Dedede - I struggled against this one at first because when using the can he can fly higher than the trajectory before it explodes. Like Bowser and DK his body is huge so you can jump and throw a pigeon and it will land. Best strategy for him is keep dodging away and using projectiles as diversions. I love that the pigeon knocks back Dedede's spike ball in the same direction it came from if timed correctly. A

Mario - This one was surprising one of the only losses I had and I blew a 2:1 lead. If you play a Mario that knows how to use fireballs int the air and on the ground to keep you moving it's tough. And he moves very smooth through the air so you have to time any cans or pigeons precisely.

Samus - This one is tough. As a Wario main a great Samus gives me fits because it becomes hard to penetrate her defense plus knock her out. With Duck Hunt it's more even as I can spam projectiles back. The good news is every projectile you have including gunmen will cancel out a fully charged Samus energy blast. If you can navigate your way around missiles and know how to use your Gunmen as a shield, then make Samus move you're in good shape. I stll need more practice to come up with a more consistent strategy but Samus seems to be my biggest foe Wario or DHD.

Falco - This one I had a lot of trouble with. Because I play the grab and go game a lot, his reflector screws my timing up and some of his smash attacks can cancel out a lot of DHD's moves.

Shiek/Sonic - Don't get intimidated by their speed. You won't be able to use as many projectiles because of their speed and quickness but be patient. My strategy which has been hugely successful, is to dance around and around and around. Throw a random can on the ground and make them run and chase you. Once they hit the can you can throw a pigeon and start attacking. Go for a grab and throw down and attack. Also because they're fast, if your timing is great you can use fsmash as they're running at you. I've done it now against Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Sonic. Just have to time it right. Use their aggression to your advantage.

Villager - Seems like once I beat someone's 2 mains on glory, they switch to Villager just because they want to try the pocket trick. Well once they pocket a pigeon if you throw a gunmen he'll shoot both your new pigeon and the Villager's and make them pay. I also faced a Villager main and the key is to keep throwing them and use less projectiles. Your'e gonna have to dodge a bunch of missiles but throw a pigeon up before the missile fires and you can shoot the pigeon as Villager is jumping off.

Mega Man - If you play a Mega man that plays head on you have the advantage. If you play a projectile spammer, it's tough like Samus. You'lll get into jumping mode which you have to get used to.
Peach - For people who like to float with Peach, time the can throw perfectly and you'll hit every time. Also jump and throw the gunman in the air and time the gravity so the shot happens on the same plain as Peach. Once you take away her air game, you can own the ground game.

Pit - Actually one of my easier opponents. Best thing is to keep dodging and rolling with DHD make Pit charge you and throw the pigeon to neutralize him. When they try to use Pit's reflection special, the delay once they land on the ground gives you plenty of time to throw him.

Jigglypuff/Kirby - Grouping them the same because they're both small and light. Best course of action I had was let them come at you, shield and roll. Once they play the air game throw projectiles high especially the can to make them come back to the ground.

That's all I can think of now. I saved a bunch of replays too that I want to upload and post here but I have no idea how to transfer the video over to my Mac. If I missed a character and you guys are curious on my strategy to beat them please post. Or even a character I did post and you'd like some more details. Seems like the only person I haven't played yet is Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Hiemie]

ROB always gives me a lot of trouble, the one thing I've been doing lately is stealing his gyro and holding it while peppering him with projectiles. I've been doing better because of it. It's a lot like Diddy's Bananas.

 

[WarioWaft]

ROB always gives me a lot of trouble, the one thing I've been doing lately is stealing his gyro and holding it while peppering him with projectiles. I've been doing better because of it. It's a lot like Diddy's Bananas.

Rob is tough if he continuously spams the gyro and the laser.

It's harder to use the projectile and gunmen shield to get around him but if you constantly use the trick shot to move it towards him and push him closer to the edge, you can get an upper hand. From there you just don't let him get that far from you. Because he's so big he has a nice little hit box with DHD's tilts and smash attacks.

 

[Funkermonster]

Hey all, I've been addicted to Duck Hunt this past weekend! I'm a Wario Main but man Duck Hunt is awesome! Has really found a place in my heart.

When I use Wario the matches are interesting because I have to hustle a lot and because his fsmash is delayed I have to really on a Waft KO often.

But with Duck Hunt I can completely take control of a match and just completely keep my opponents guessing on their toes not knowing what's going to come next.

So these are the match ups after like 200 or so matches on 1v1 glory that I've found.

------


Captain Falcon - Can neutralize his speed with projectiles. Make him move so fast his player won't know how to react or what to do and catch him off guard. The clay pigeon can neutralize his ground falcon kick if you time it to hit him halfway before his kick. Once the kick is in midstream it breaks it.

Ganondorf - Almost too easy. I played a really good Ganondorf who knew how to move around efficiently but all I had to do was keep my distance and from there it was game set match.

Bowser/DK - Man felt sorry for the guys who mained these. One dude had DK and while he made it close he lost 5 times in a row. Same for a Bowser guy who had it in his user name and mained and he just kept coming back for more and kept getting disappointed. He lucked on one match because I sd (was trying to fly but for some reason it threw a pigeon). These two are probably the best to go against. DHD's quickness and projectiles will hit them 99% of the time if you keep your distance.

FOX - One of my favorites. Whenever I beat someone 2 in a row they go to Fox because they think they're going to utilize that reflector shield faster than I can throw items. Once they realize it was all for nothing I just start grabbing and throwing, keep shooting the can. Anticipate the Fox illusion comebacks heights. Throwing a can in the air he'll hit the can and destroy it every time if he tries to illusion over your head to get back on the map.

Marth/Ike - Can handle them pretty well. Projectiles and distance gives them headaches. Start using the gunmen to bait a shield and grab and throw them around.

Link - It took me a while to find a good strategy against Link. Because he can spam projectiles as fast as DHD. The good news is Link is slow and his moves have a lot of delay, so I can take full advantage of it. Also I love using the boomerang gust against them, throw myself right in the gust and use any smash and he can't time it because it shoots so fast.

Zelda - One of the tougher ones I had to go against. Her teleportation annoys the hell out of me and her reflector thing can mess up my timing sometimes.

Ness - Another one that took me a while to figure out. I had to play enough matches against Ness to see which moves of mine canceled out his and vice versa. I've now found a solid strategy against Ness. Sometimes players get too PK Fire happy, a quick dodge and pigeon will keep him honest. He tries to switch to the aerial game you throw the cans up to screw with his head and don't forget to utilize the Uair.
King Dedede - I struggled against this one at first because when using the can he can fly higher than the trajectory before it explodes. Like Bowser and DK his body is huge so you can jump and throw a pigeon and it will land. Best strategy for him is keep dodging away and using projectiles as diversions. I love that the pigeon knocks back Dedede's spike ball in the same direction it came from if timed correctly. A

Mario - This one was surprising one of the only losses I had and I blew a 2:1 lead. If you play a Mario that knows how to use fireballs int the air and on the ground to keep you moving it's tough. And he moves very smooth through the air so you have to time any cans or pigeons precisely.

Samus - This one is tough. As a Wario main a great Samus gives me fits because it becomes hard to penetrate her defense plus knock her out. With Duck Hunt it's more even as I can spam projectiles back. The good news is every projectile you have including gunmen will cancel out a fully charged Samus energy blast. If you can navigate your way around missiles and know how to use your Gunmen as a shield, then make Samus move you're in good shape. I stll need more practice to come up with a more consistent strategy but Samus seems to be my biggest foe Wario or DHD.

Falco - This one I had a lot of trouble with. Because I play the grab and go game a lot, his reflector screws my timing up and some of his smash attacks can cancel out a lot of DHD's moves.

Shiek/Sonic - Don't get intimidated by their speed. You won't be able to use as many projectiles because of their speed and quickness but be patient. My strategy which has been hugely successful, is to dance around and around and around. Throw a random can on the ground and make them run and chase you. Once they hit the can you can throw a pigeon and start attacking. Go for a grab and throw down and attack. Also because they're fast, if your timing is great you can use fsmash as they're running at you. I've done it now against Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Sonic. Just have to time it right. Use their aggression to your advantage.

Villager - Seems like once I beat someone's 2 mains on glory, they switch to Villager just because they want to try the pocket trick. Well once they pocket a pigeon if you throw a gunmen he'll shoot both your new pigeon and the Villager's and make them pay. I also faced a Villager main and the key is to keep throwing them and use less projectiles. Your'e gonna have to dodge a bunch of missiles but throw a pigeon up before the missile fires and you can shoot the pigeon as Villager is jumping off.

Mega Man - If you play a Mega man that plays head on you have the advantage. If you play a projectile spammer, it's tough like Samus. You'lll get into jumping mode which you have to get used to.
Peach - For people who like to float with Peach, time the can throw perfectly and you'll hit every time. Also jump and throw the gunman in the air and time the gravity so the shot happens on the same plain as Peach. Once you take away her air game, you can own the ground game.

Pit - Actually one of my easier opponents. Best thing is to keep dodging and rolling with DHD make Pit charge you and throw the pigeon to neutralize him. When they try to use Pit's reflection special, the delay once they land on the ground gives you plenty of time to throw him.

Jigglypuff/Kirby - Grouping them the same because they're both small and light. Best course of action I had was let them come at you, shield and roll. Once they play the air game throw projectiles high especially the can to make them come back to the ground.

That's all I can think of now. I saved a bunch of replays too that I want to upload and post here but I have no idea how to transfer the video over to my Mac. If I missed a character and you guys are curious on my strategy to beat them please post. Or even a character I did post and you'd like some more details. Seems like the only person I haven't played yet is Wii Fit Trainer.

I'm not so sure about these, because For Glory mode is a poor indication of skill and matchup strategy. I wouldn't even call it a good competitive scene, because it has several issues:

• Latency problems and massive lag.
• FD being the only stage, which forces you to play with and against a limited number of tactics. FD is barely a balanced stage.
• Most of its players are honestly aren't that good anyway. There's a pretty good chance that at least a quarter or half of the opponents you've had are either inexperienced or just not as good as you thought. Maybe if you find people who actually know what they're doing with their own characters, you just might have to change up your gameplan a ton.

That said, I find some of those matchups to be questionable and probably could be way different in an offline setting. Can't talk about it much right now though, got Math to do.

 

[WarioWaft]

I'm not so sure about these, because For Glory mode is a poor indication of skill and matchup strategy. I wouldn't even call it a good competitive scene, because it has several issues:

• Latency problems and massive lag.
• FD being the only stage, which forces you to play with and against a limited number of tactics. FD is barely a balanced stage.
• Most of its players are honestly aren't that good anyway. There's a pretty good chance that at least a quarter or half of the opponents you've had are either inexperienced or just not as good as you thought. Maybe if you find people who actually know what they're doing with their own characters, you just might have to change up your gameplan a ton.

That said, I find some of those matchups to be questionable and probably could be way different in an offline setting. Can't talk about it much right now though, got Math to do.

I've kept an open mind.

I remember when Wes came to my city in 2005 he schooled me and opened up my eyes to what real competition is. I base a lot of my opinion on what I saw tactically. I know Melee is another animal but aggressive pursuit and constant pressure have always been staples in every smash game for success.

Do agree on lag. It works both ways though.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! We are discussing the Duck Hunt match-up on the Marth Match-up thread! It would be awesome if you could give us your input.

 

[WispBae]

Hey guys! We are discussing the Duck Hunt match-up on the Marth Match-up thread! It would be awesome if you could give us your input.

A lil knowledge about Marth to help us out? We scratch your back, you... scratch under our chins? Maybe a belly rub? =3

 

[Locuan]

Jaja sure I'll add some info when I get the chance. Right now Im on mobile and its a bit difficult to type D:

 

[Spirst]

I vote that lady boy gives us his butterknife as a nice chew toy

 

[WispBae]

Added a ton of stage info talked about here and a few MU's talked about as well (Samus, dittos, Link, ROB, etc).

List of people to credit for feedback:
@ DunnoBro
@ Spirst
@ BSME/misc
@ Funkermonster
@ Locuan
@ ThatGuyYouMightKnow
@ Hiemie
@ W WarioWaft

I'll try not to let too much info build up next time and update the front all at once.

As for the nifty lil chart @SmashCapps made for our stages, it seems we won't be able to use it, since I was having a hard time adding info to all that formatting and he couldn't figure out why Smashboards is being odd with the formatting. Sorry guys.

Any thoughts on the Little Mac MU? As people get better with him, it's been an uphill battle with my villager. Really need doggy for him, and even then it's very hard. It seems like a strong grab and projectile game are necessary, considering his Smash attacks being THE MOST GODLIKE THING IN THE PLANET.

 

[WarioWaft]

As people improve with Mac it's very important to learn how to use DHD's tilts to neutralize Mac's speed and power.

Because DHD's projectiles are so slow to develop and Mac has so much quickness and move priority, you'll have to actually play Mac with the boxer style. Jab here jab there, move him into a corner (off the stage) and go from there. For counter happy Mac's, they can't hurt you with projectile counters. Grab and throw is probably your best tactic.

 

[Locuan]

Duck Hunt vs. Marth:

Projectiles. Duck Hunt's specialty. Use them to your advantage. Duck Hunt's Down B has transcended priority so Marth is limited to blocking, rolling, spot dodging, short hop air dodge (the air dodge animation ends before touching the ground for Marth) or jumping to evade it. Duck Hunt's side B can lead up to different follow ups if it connects, I have been grabbed, smashed, f-aired, b-aired, n-aired. You get the idea. Marth here has an additional option to deal with Duck Hunt's side B. He could attempt to break it with his sword with f-tilt, jab, or f-air but if the Duck Hunt player times it correctly he can shoot his side-B and Marth would end up getting hit regardless. Now the can is something that is easier to deal with. Marth have all of the options to evade previously mentioned. The can needs eight hits to explode, that or it hits Marth and explodes at that moment. If there is enough distance between Duck Hunt and Marth, Marth should be hitting the can away from him. Duck Hunt can use this as an advantage though. If you bait your opponent to hit the can away you can punish the end lag of his moves if you are quick enough. You are able use the can to edge-guard Marth. His recovery isn't the best and can be gimped if timed correctly.

If Marth gets in the range he wants to be in your neutral game should shift. Utilizing projectiles could leave you open for attack due to their end lag animations. You should be looking for ways to reset the distance that Marth gained against you. This can be done by grabbing Marth and throwing him away from you. You could also throw him upwards. Utilize your tilts or jabs. Duck Hunts smash attacks could be utilized just be careful not to miss the attack. Marth is limited to his responses against an opponent below him. If Dair does not connect has a lot of landing lag. Marth is able to harass with d-tilt traps or dancing blade setups in order to keep the damage going. Dancing Blade setups are a complete chapter on EternalFlames Marth guide. One of the most common that I utilize involve utilizing DB until the second hit. The second hit would be the upwards variant. This places Marth's opponent slightly in the air. Marth will observe the way you respond after he stops DB in this situation in order to punish. One of the most common things opponents do is try to air dodge out of a DB3 that is non-existent and get punished by an f-smash or another attack. Be wary of these situations. Marth might also try to place Duck Hunt in the air. If I'm not mistaken if your opponent is below you, Duck Hunt has limited options to respond against Marth. Be careful in this situation. Marth is still able to pressure an opponent that is above him.

Duck Hunt should be careful when out of stage. If you are coming in from an upwards angle try to utilize the can to cover your recovery. If you are below Marth you need to find a way to make him think you are coming in from different angles or more vulnerable than you truly are. Using your second jump and u-air to keep a hungry Marth away could be a good option. Regardless, Duck Hunt's recovery is pretty bad and Marth can take the advantage here. Our aerials do have a lot of end lag, but their start up is fast. F-air has a 6 frame start up while B-air has a 7 frame start up. They also cover quite a large range and can gimp Duck Hunt fairly easily. Stage spikes are also a real possibility. D-air is always there if you recover from below Marth where he does not have to worry you will hit him during the process if you are under your up-b animation.

I wish I could add more information but I am not as knowledgeable as I would like to be in this match-up. Most of these things are pretty general knowledge. Anyways, I hope this helps and if I for some reason I am wrong on any of my observations, please feel free to correct me. Also @ EternalFlame maybe you could add a bit more input on this match-up.

 

[Wafty]

So i second Duck Hunt, I've been thinking of using DH as my Diddy counter. Opinions?
I played a Diddy this past weekend and was using his projectles to keep the diddy from getting the grabs he needs.
Anyway, question for the real DH mains... Would DH be a useful counter for Diddy? or should i just learn the MU with Wario?

 

[WispBae]

So i second Duck Hunt, I've been thinking of using DH as my Diddy counter. Opinions?
I played a Diddy this past weekend and was using his projectles to keep the diddy from getting the grabs he needs.
Anyway, question for the real DH mains... Would DH be a useful counter for Diddy? or should i just learn the MU with Wario?

Diddy's mobility is the main problem for everyone yes?

You could do it with doggy, though it may be hard. Your safest projectiles would be gunmen and cans only. Trying to wall out diddy though with only projectiles is likely not to happen, he has a ton of options and a banana to work with. Doggy crumbles under pressure, so against a good diddy, you're gonna have a tough time, monkey flip will always keep him nearby.

It's doable, imo, though I think there maybe someone better for Diddy. Perhaps Bowser for easy damage, a huge wall of pain, and fast KO's. It would probably be easier with someone else, but a great doggy can beat Diddy, and solidly too, as long as you can keep control of the situation (don't get grabbed, play defense, make him come to you).

 

[EternalFlame]

Duck Hunt vs. Marth:

Projectiles. Duck Hunt's specialty. Use them to your advantage. Duck Hunt's Down B has transcended priority so Marth is limited to blocking, rolling, spot dodging, short hop air dodge (the air dodge animation ends before touching the ground for Marth) or jumping to evade it. Duck Hunt's side B can lead up to different follow ups if it connects, I have been grabbed, smashed, f-aired, b-aired, n-aired. You get the idea. Marth here has an additional option to deal with Duck Hunt's side B. He could attempt to break it with his sword with f-tilt, jab, or f-air but if the Duck Hunt player times it correctly he can shoot his side-B and Marth would end up getting hit regardless. Now the can is something that is easier to deal with. Marth have all of the options to evade previously mentioned. The can needs eight hits to explode, that or it hits Marth and explodes at that moment. If there is enough distance between Duck Hunt and Marth, Marth should be hitting the can away from him. Duck Hunt can use this as an advantage though. If you bait your opponent to hit the can away you can punish the end lag of his moves if you are quick enough. You are able use the can to edge-guard Marth. His recovery isn't the best and can be gimped if timed correctly.

If Marth gets in the range he wants to be in your neutral game should shift. Utilizing projectiles could leave you open for attack due to their end lag animations. You should be looking for ways to reset the distance that Marth gained against you. This can be done by grabbing Marth and throwing him away from you. You could also throw him upwards. Utilize your tilts or jabs. Duck Hunts smash attacks could be utilized just be careful not to miss the attack. Marth is limited to his responses against an opponent below him. If Dair does not connect has a lot of landing lag. Marth is able to harass with d-tilt traps or dancing blade setups in order to keep the damage going. Dancing Blade setups are a complete chapter on EternalFlames Marth guide. One of the most common that I utilize involve utilizing DB until the second hit. The second hit would be the upwards variant. This places Marth's opponent slightly in the air. Marth will observe the way you respond after he stops DB in this situation in order to punish. One of the most common things opponents do is try to air dodge out of a DB3 that is non-existent and get punished by an f-smash or another attack. Be wary of these situations. Marth might also try to place Duck Hunt in the air. If I'm not mistaken if your opponent is below you, Duck Hunt has limited options to respond against Marth. Be careful in this situation. Marth is still able to pressure an opponent that is above him.

Duck Hunt should be careful when out of stage. If you are coming in from an upwards angle try to utilize the can to cover your recovery. If you are below Marth you need to find a way to make him think you are coming in from different angles or more vulnerable than you truly are. Using your second jump and u-air to keep a hungry Marth away could be a good option. Regardless, Duck Hunt's recovery is pretty bad and Marth can take the advantage here. Our aerials do have a lot of end lag, but their start up is fast. F-air has a 6 frame start up while B-air has a 7 frame start up. They also cover quite a large range and can gimp Duck Hunt fairly easily. Stage spikes are also a real possibility. D-air is always there if you recover from below Marth where he does not have to worry you will hit him during the process if you are under your up-b animation.

I wish I could add more information but I am not as knowledgeable as I would like to be in this match-up. Most of these things are pretty general knowledge. Anyways, I hope this helps and if I for some reason I am wrong on any of my observations, please feel free to correct me. Also @ EternalFlame maybe you could add a bit more input on this match-up.

My experience is limited on the subject, but I'll do what I can to elaborate things from Marth's perspective xD

As Locuan has established, Marth will have a bit of difficulty dealing with all the projectile spam that comes around. DHD does not want Marth at sword length at all, as DHD will have a bit of difficulty getting Marth off of him when it does happen. The biggest problems going for DHD is the ending lag from throwing his projectiles at the beginning (though Im sure all of you guys already know that xD). Unless there's good spacing, Marth will close that distance and poke you out of it as quickly as possible. Probably the best advice I can give is vary the timing that you guys throw your projectiles. Typical range play involves throwing projectiles as quickly as possible; but do this too often and it will become a pattern that Marths can run through or perfect shield through to get to you. Don't be afraid to engage Marth at close range either. Just throwing off his reading tactics can be the key to success, and Marth has a blind spot at point blank range for most of his attacks, so if you can somehow get in that space, you have a free chance to hit him and reset the spacing.

Another good thing to do probably is utilizing the momentum from jumping while you throw your projectiles (particularly Down B). You will likely be more defensive than Marth, but I do believe DHD's a attacks aren't too bad either for occassionally going up close. Marth will rely on reading you to get his kills early, so maintain control and keep cool when he pressures. As long as you vary the timing of your attacks, switch tactics occassionally, and close off Marth's movemet options like what Locuan talked about (along with the other parts Locuan mentioned of course xD), I'd say you guys have a good running to beat Marth. Marth already struggles against projectile users, though not to the extent of say Villager or Link/Toon Link unfortunately (for DHD players that is xD).

I'mma need to fight actually good DHD players to give a full description of how the MU may go, but hopefully this surface analysis will help with understanding the MU. Perhaps I can ask around here for a match in the future xD

 

[WispBae]

My experience is limited on the subject, but I'll do what I can to elaborate things from Marth's perspective xD

As Locuan has established, Marth will have a bit of difficulty dealing with all the projectile spam that comes around. DHD does not want Marth at sword length at all, as DHD will have a bit of difficulty getting Marth off of him when it does happen. The biggest problems going for DHD is the ending lag from throwing his projectiles at the beginning (though Im sure all of you guys already know that xD). Unless there's good spacing, Marth will close that distance and poke you out of it as quickly as possible. Probably the best advice I can give is vary the timing that you guys throw your projectiles. Typical range play involves throwing projectiles as quickly as possible; but do this too often and it will become a pattern that Marths can run through or perfect shield through to get to you. Don't be afraid to engage Marth at close range either. Just throwing off his reading tactics can be the key to success, and Marth has a blind spot at point blank range for most of his attacks, so if you can somehow get in that space, you have a free chance to hit him and reset the spacing.

Another good thing to do probably is utilizing the momentum from jumping while you throw your projectiles (particularly Down B). You will likely be more defensive than Marth, but I do believe DHD's a attacks aren't too bad either for occassionally going up close. Marth will rely on reading you to get his kills early, so maintain control and keep cool when he pressures. As long as you vary the timing of your attacks, switch tactics occassionally, and close off Marth's movemet options like what Locuan talked about (along with the other parts Locuan mentioned of course xD), I'd say you guys have a good running to beat Marth. Marth already struggles against projectile users, though not to the extent of say Villager or Link/Toon Link unfortunately (for DHD players that is xD).

I'mma need to fight actually good DHD players to give a full description of how the MU may go, but hopefully this surface analysis will help with understanding the MU. Perhaps I can ask around here for a match in the future xD

Think our best doggy may be @ ThatGuyYouMightKnow but I'm sure any of us would be up to spar!

 

[EternalFlame]

Think our best doggy may be @ ThatGuyYouMightKnow but I'm sure any of us would be up to spar!

always appreciate the offer xD well, once I've settled on my new school schedule, I'll get around to looking for various MUs to practice with. Hopefully I'll be able to make more progress towards developing my playstyle and the Marth guide as best as possible.

 

[Blumiere]

Against Rosalina: I've found that the most consistent way of punishing her on Omega stages at least is getting her to gravitational pull a can aimed at her when you're about half the stage away, then getting a running tilt/tackle (what's that called?) in on her while she's still doing the wand waving animation.

 

[WarioWaft]

Diddy's mobility is the main problem for everyone yes?

You could do it with doggy, though it may be hard. Your safest projectiles would be gunmen and cans only. Trying to wall out diddy though with only projectiles is likely not to happen, he has a ton of options and a banana to work with. Doggy crumbles under pressure, so against a good diddy, you're gonna have a tough time, monkey flip will always keep him nearby.

It's doable, imo, though I think there maybe someone better for Diddy. Perhaps Bowser for easy damage, a huge wall of pain, and fast KO's. It would probably be easier with someone else, but a great doggy can beat Diddy, and solidly too, as long as you can keep control of the situation (don't get grabbed, play defense, make him come to you).

Not exactly. You absolutely can find great success with clay against Diddy. Against really good Diddys they seem to go right through the gunmen. i use gunmen moreso to bring up Diddy's shield than anything. Trickshot for Diddy players who love the mid-high air game.
Again, I don't use clay against Diddy as frequently because he's just too fast and it gets too risky if he gets close but I still make really good use of it nonetheless.

Think our best doggy may be @ ThatGuyYouMightKnow but I'm sure any of us would be up to spar!

I want to challenge him for the bragging rights. lol

Not a DHD vs. DHD, that'd be way too annoying. His main vs. my DHD, and vice versa.

 

[DunnoBro]

His main is DHD tho lol

 

[WarioWaft]

His main is DHD tho lol

Have to figure it out somehow. A DHD clone match is just meh.

 

[WispBae]

Added info for marth MU. Thanks @ Locuan and @ EternalFlame !

I'd like to talk about Kongo Jungle 64, I quite like the format if the Marth MU thread where everyone talks about one thing at once. Following with @ DunnoBro 's format:

Pros:

• Plenty of space to run around!
• Spinning platforms give cans an interesting place to set up.
• Doggy's recovery let's him easily get into the cannon under stage.

Cons:

• The dip in the middle of the stage messes up projectiles (clays and gunmen).
• The slant on the platforms on both sides of the stage also mess up projectiles.
• Not sweetspotting the ledge here leaves you open for the biggest punishes, since doggy's recovery can't be cancelled.
• Cannon under stage is a double edged sword.

Verdict: Doable, but not preferable. Avoid.

Notes:It would seem like this place is great for doggy, though the slants on stage are very annoying. This won't affect an aggressive doggy, but playing defense here is not easy. Not to mention this stages's very high ceiling, making it harder to get those up-air KO's.

Thoughts?

 

[Spirst]

I personally don't like KJ64 too much for DH because of the odd slant and high platforms. Platforms are good for DH when they're low, like Lylat, and can offer adequate cover/cover both fronts. For KJ64, I feel like the moving platforms as well as the highly-placed platforms make coverage more situational. Can drops from ledges are more telegraphed because of the distance that needs to be covered. As you said, the dip in the middle of the stage messes with projectiles in that you're either in the middle and it gets lodged on the slant or you're on the edge and it goes over smaller hurtboxes in the middle. It's also easier for people to avoid being harassed offstage with Cans due to the barrel and the stage being able to be jumped through. Overall, I wouldn't say it's awful but I wouldn't use this as a CP.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

As far as I know right now best DHD could be FOW, I'm only at my best when I'm actually playing at my level of potential...which happens rarely. Even then, not sure if you could call me best DHD just yet. I need to prove myself first.

Last Tuesday was a sad day for me. DunnoBro messed me up. BUT I'M THE BEST HUNTER IN THE EAST AND YOU'LL ALL KNOW IT.

Although personally, I DO think I know the character better than most, as well as how to abuse him the best.