Funkermonster
The Clown
Can we still challenge you for bragging rights (or at least for the experience)?
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I really hate Yoshi as DH. I try to play defensively/opportunistically against him due to how absurd his airspeed/eggs are. I'd say to always keep something in between him and you since once he gets in, he can do some stupid stuff. If you're having issues with gunmen not shooting in time, this might be a MU that's suitable for quick gunmen. I was thinking of mega gunmen to avoid eggs but I think having a quickfire option might be more useful than wall since if you have the latter, you're still stuck with being defensive rather than having a move you can throw out there at any point. One thing that's on our side is that we have good aerial disjoints to outmatch his own. I find the fair to be a great tool vs a Yoshi playing too aggressively. Would love to hear more input on this MU since it's an irritating one.Bump.
Can we talk about Yoshi? How the hell are we supposed to deal with him? When I talked to a good Yoshi main at Paragon, he was telling me that you pretty much have to play super defensive against Yoshi, wait for the Nair attempts and telegraphed moves.
His eggs make cans in mid-air a pain in the bum, clay pigeon works ok but it's not a major tool you can rely on without getting predictable, and to use gunmen you'll either have to get lucky with which one is summoned, or protect him before he shoots, to open for a grab or attack follow up. Even then, his Nair comes out so quickly. I really can't figure out a decent strategy that doesn't involve camping a ton, and trading eggs with clay pigeons.
Recently I was playing a ness who batted everything back at me, it was so annoying... He never ever approached unless his damage was higher. He'd try to time me out too.With me personally I just find it best to zone Ness out and punish. I play a little less aggressive to avoid his grabs and pk fire. Setting up traps with gunmen, can and Frisbee is ideal as well. You want to wrack up as much damage as you possibly can without getting caught with the fire or grab because DH is very vulnerable in the air. Also try not to challenge Ness in the air, his aerials beat out ours. @ Mr.Pikachu
I'm unbelievably bad at the Shulk MU, his disjoint basically forces defensive options since there's no chance of challening his attacks with anything more than a clank, and my defense is probably my worst aspect, I can't spot dodge, my rolls are more of a spacing tool, I often get shield broken when I use shield, and otherwise I'd rather use an offensive option to avoid an attack, but then they just beat it out with aerial or counter it. So any help with Shulk is appreciated.Do you think we could talk about the shulk match up? Most of the time I encounter shulks I can't get past his Nair pressure and he just demolishes all my projectiles. His monado arts are also such a pain to deal with.
The main thing that makes Shulk so hard to beat is his absurd range along with his fast auto canceling aerials, making it incredibly hard to punish if we even can. His monado arts is also is another huge problem since he can easily rack up damage, recover fairly well, can kill easily, and let's not forget make it incredibly hard to kill him especially as DHD. He's pretty much like a Marth on steroids. The thing I'm actually seeing now is Shulks are pretty predictable when they use their arts. For instance, speed form, they usually try to abuse their increased pivot grab range, use more nairs and try to apply more pressure and punish more often. I see most shulks use this at low %s and sometimes at high % to get a grab kill. With jump arts, 95% of them always chase you offstage with this making it extremely hard to get back onstage, not to mention they get a boosted recovery. Now shulk will only use buster arts at low %'s to rack up damage and it's really annoying when they go into this mode since the low knockback will guarantee them for some follow-ups and extra damage although if we can avoid that, all of our attacks will do extra damage to him since the downside effect of buster arts is they take increased damage. They'll use nair a lot more to start their combos and grab follow ups. Smash arts is when they want to finish you off and they'll be searching for a fsmash/usmash and you still need to be careful because his tilts can take your stocks as well. Even though their downside effect is they take increased knockback we can barely kill unless we get a good bair, uair either a dair spike on them. Trying to abuse their downside effect with smash attacks will only get you killed so what I try to do is play safely and continue to can and run then finish them off when the power subsided. The one that gives DHD the most trouble is his shield arts since we already can't kill and he gets drastically low knockback when we attack him the only thing we can do is camp him out since he can still autocancel into safe jabs. Although if he's offstage time your dair on him, he won't auto sweet spot the ledge which gives us a chance to capitalize on his reduced recovery.I'm unbelievably bad at the Shulk MU, his disjoint basically forces defensive options since there's no chance of challening his attacks with anything more than a clank, and my defense is probably my worst aspect, I can't spot dodge, my rolls are more of a spacing tool, I often get shield broken when I use shield, and otherwise I'd rather use an offensive option to avoid an attack, but then they just beat it out with aerial or counter it. So any help with Shulk is appreciated.
For what I can actually offer in terms of the MU, it's not much, but I find gunman as my best friend in this MU, use it to force certain options then punish. If they block it, grab, if they jump over, uair, if they eat the hit, do whatever. Once they switch to Shield monado or get your in a disadvantaged situation, then I dunno. I can sometimes win the neutral game against Shulk, but when it comes to getting the KO, getting out of a disadvantaged situation, or anything in-between, I'm absolutely clueless. Sometimes I don't even win the neutral, I just end up getting rushed-down with nairs.
Jump art doesn't reduce ground speed, it only makes it look slow compared to air speed.The main thing that makes Shulk so hard to beat is his absurd range along with his fast auto canceling aerials, making it incredibly hard to punish if we even can. His monado arts is also is another huge problem since he can easily rack up damage, recover fairly well, can kill easily, and let's not forget make it incredibly hard to kill him especially as DHD. He's pretty much like a Marth on steroids. The thing I'm actually seeing now is Shulks are pretty predictable when they use their arts. For instance, speed form, they usually try to abuse their increased pivot grab range, use more nairs and try to apply more pressure and punish more often. I see most shulks use this at low %s and sometimes at high % to get a grab kill. With jump arts, 95% of them always chase you offstage with this making it extremely hard to get back onstage, not to mention they get a boosted recovery. Although you won't have to worry about them trying to rush for a grab or pressure you offstage with this because the downside of this art is reduced ground speed. Now shulk will only use buster arts at low %'s to rack up damage and it's really annoying when they go into this mode since the low knockback will guarantee them for some follow-ups and extra damage although if we can avoid that, all of our attacks will do extra damage to him since the downside effect of buster arts is they take increased damage. They'll use nair a lot more to start their combos and grab follow ups. Smash arts is when they want to finish you off and they'll be searching for a fsmash/usmash and you still need to be careful because his tilts can take your stocks as well. Even though their downside effect is they take increased knockback we can barely kill unless we get a good bair, uair either a dair spike on them. Trying to abuse their downside effect with smash attacks will only get you killed so what I try to do is play safely and continue to can and run then finish them off when the power subsided. The one that gives DHD the most trouble is his shield arts since we already can't kill and he gets drastically low knockback when we attack him the only thing we can do is camp him out since he can still autocancel into safe jabs. Although if he's offstage time your dair on him, he won't auto sweet spot the ledge which gives us a chance to capitalize on his reduced recovery.
The main things going for shulk is his powerful, but safe ranged moves and his arts. I think if we can neutralize this then we could beat him.
(P.S- Sorry about the long post!)
Mario is an odd character to give advice on since he's such a balanced all-rounder, to the point where the best advice would be based on habits that most Mario mains have, so I'll do dat:Mario.....I am having the hardest time with his speed and aerials. I usually play an aggressive and I know I have to be more campy, but I can never get the chance to. His speed and stage presence is too much. Help please!
Alright cool, thanks! Will be applying thisWe dropping the system of talking about the MU in the title or wut? Don't think anyone has any more Sonic advice, my best advice is pick a secondary. Why don't we go like the R.O.B. boards and make individual threads for our worst and hardest MUs? It'll be easier to get people from that character's board to come in and give advice, and it'll be easier to keep it on-topic. What do you think @ Spirst @ WispBae ?
Mario is an odd character to give advice on since he's such a balanced all-rounder, to the point where the best advice would be based on habits that most Mario mains have, so I'll do dat:
This one's not really for help against common habits, but it's pretty much the main thing we have in the Mario MU.
- Marios tend to be very cape-happy against DHD players, one of the worst mistakes being that they attempt to cape the gunman's bullet, which works, except it won't hit DHD, it'll hit the gunman as long as you aren't in the way. This gives you an opportunity to get in against the Mario.
- At low percentages, keep a watchful eye for grabs, to the same extent you'd be wary of a Diddy player, because Mario can immediately take you to around 50% with up-tilt strings and up-b/up-smash. This is where being good at spot-dodging comes in helpful, you can expect the grab and dodge it, then grab them yourself for a throw follow-up.
- A fireball happy Mario is hell for DHD since it demolishes all of our projectiles, this kind of limits our camping prowess, so I do believe an aggressive-style helps in this MU to an extent, as long as you keep a balance between the two. Our best camping tool is that we can have a can come in over the fireballs, as long as you also keep them pressured from the front.
- DHDs edge-guarding game is very good, and Mario's recovery is very predictable, that means getting a nair or bair off-stage is one of your best bets for gaining the KO.
I'd be on board with that idea. Given that this is a board that doesn't see much activity for a character seldom used, having one big MU thread seems like it'd take forever for relevant activity to take place. I believe the Link boards do that too and have a stickied index that lists each thread. Sometime down the line, if someone feels like contributing/asking something relevant to a specific MU, they can do so in the individual thread rather than having to go off-topic in a centralized MU thread.We dropping the system of talking about the MU in the title or wut? Don't think anyone has any more Sonic advice, my best advice is pick a secondary. Why don't we go like the R.O.B. boards and make individual threads for our worst and hardest MUs? It'll be easier to get people from that character's board to come in and give advice, and it'll be easier to keep it on-topic. What do you think @ Spirst @ WispBae ?
I'm down for it, I'll do it later tonight.@ WispBae Since we seem to be doing separate pages of discussion now rather than all in one thread, would you be against turning the OP into an index? The Link boards seem to have done it nicely.
http://smashboards.com/threads/book-of-mu-dora-index.374493/
Yesss, plz lets discuss the DHD Yoshi MU. I just got destroyed by a yoshi main today, and I can never ever get any projectiles out cause he's always nairing me and even if I did I can't chase him into the air god it's so frustrating when the only option you have is to uair him and even that doesn't work. His fair is nasty and gimps our recovery ridiculously early.His dair destroys everything we have.... :/@ Spirst So I tried turning the thread into an index, but it seemed like way too much work considering there were only 2 specific threads about specific MU's. I would prefer to keep MU talk here so we could keep it all organized, though if others would like to make threads for problem characters that still have a lot of debate (insert all high tiers) I wouldn't mind.
I'm still totally up for voting for MU's and talking about them. If anything, I'll keep discussions about each character open for a week, and then change it every week, inviting people here to chat about it. Even if I'm the only one to join in the discussion, I'll still change it every week.
I think the next options should be...
Unless anyone wants to suggest another MU to discuss. My vote is still for Yoshi, that damned dinosaur ruffles my feathers...
- Shiek
- RosaLuma
- Yoshi