Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

[Nu~]

Edit: Hey! So I was gonna talk about Pac Man yesterday, but there was something funny going on with Smashboards. Sorry 'bout that-- ANYWAY ONTO PACMAN!!

~Pac Man and Duck Hunt star in the much anticipated remake of Oliver & Company. "It's ruff stuff", quote The New Yorker. "Not that great", according to Chucks VHS Emporium...

All of my writings on this are based offa playing my friends Pac Man a bunch. If you disagree with me, please sound off below! I'd love ta hear your thoughts on him.

Vs
Pro's for Dogger:

• Pac Man will keep his distance from Dawg most of the time, allowing for set ups and campiness to ensue.
• Pac Man is pretty dang slow. His approach options are slightly predictable. IF he approaches, that is...
• Stage control is slightly easier for Duck Hunt, due to his not-as-laggy-as-Pac Man moves.

Con's for Dogger:

• Pac Mans fruit and fire hydrant can shut down a lot of DH's bag of tricks. Key goes right through everything. There's no stopping it.
• Pac Man is superior off stage (then again, who isn't) and following him into the air is not advised due to the swiftness of the fire hydrant.
• It's easier for Pac Man to wall Duck Hunt out than the other way round, I reckon.

The fight for control is real here! Both characters are good at keeping the other away and both characters have flaws the other can exploit! Duck Hunt's less-than-stellar recovery and Pac Man's poor grab cooldown spring to mind. Similar again to the Megaman matchup where it's important to learn the length that each projectile can travel, the same is true here. Only you have to deal with the different percents that each fruit will bring. I'll list them below*:

Cherry- 4%, travels about a third of Battlefield.
Strawberry- 6%, travels about halfway across Battlefield.
Orange- 8%, has pretty good knockback, travels about two thirds of the way across Battlefield.
Apple- 9%, has a sharp downward angle when thrown in the air, travels about two thirds of the way across Battlefield.
Melon-12%, moves very slowly, is a good kill fruit at higher percents, travels slowly across the entirety of Battlefield.
Galaxian Boss- 9%, launches opponents, can be regrabbed after it's loop de loop. travels across most of Battlefield.
Bell- 8%, Stuns opponents for a few seconds, has a weird trajectory, travels about a third of Battlefield.
Key- 15%, Huge knockback, great killpower, Once Pac Man reaches this item he has to throw it to restart the cycle, super fast and can cut through all of Duck Hunts traps. Get ready with that shield button and remember what fruit he has in rotation.


All of Pac Mans fruit stops the Clay Pidgeon. The hydrant can take the hit from all the projectiles Duck Hunt throws out, while Pac Man charges up fruit. Try and close the gap between the two of you and get rid of the hydrant. Don't let Pac Man set up.

Offstage is definitely in Pac Man's favour, as Duck Hunt is at the mercy of the fire hydrant during his up-B. You'll have to recover differently here. I like to save my 2nd jump and hug the wall, wall jump and air dodge the hydrant, then proceed to immediately up-B to the edge. Of course, mixing it up is recommended but don't up-B from below unless you're confident that you won't get hit.

"Is there any place in specific to recommend the next MU discussion? I've been having difficulties with Pac Man's side B and how it bounces the Trick Shot back, so some discussion about that match up would be nice in the future." - @ chaos11011

In that instance, I would sit and wait in shield and then punish accordingly. I can't imagine Pac Man getting much milage out of that after one or two tries. Use the can as bait if you're confident that's what he's gonna do. You can just leave the can lying around. That's what I would do, anyway...

My thoughts when playing this match up is play aggressively. Duck Hunts aerials and close up game are better against Pac Man in this instance! Less lag and superior grab-game. Just keep at him. Avoid the hydrant. You should be fine.

I give this match-up a solid 0 to -1 for doggy, seeing as our two projectile amigos are too evenly matched to really stand out. From a long distance/zoning standpoint, I'd give it to Pac Man. For the the close up game, I'd give it to Duck Hunt.

I don't have much experience with the customs side of things for Pac Man. Anyone care to comment on that?

*Percentages taken from Welcome to the Maze, a Pac Man guide.

Uhhhh...less lag? You have both more startup and end lag than pacman overall. 3/5/9/9/6 are the frames in which our aerials come out. Yours are 6/7/7/6/14. Our jabs and dash attack are the same speed, while Pac-Man's ftilt and utilt come out faster than yours. Your dtilt is one frame faster than ours though. Bair auto cancels, Fair has IASA frames, Nair and up air have low landing lag...

I don't see where this confusion came from. You have better range, but we should outspeed you pretty easily in attacks.

Pac-Man doesn't have to approach because we can just pellet shield your fruit once we have the lead, but if we do approach, all we have to do is Fair launch a hydrant at you and run behind it. It will destroy all of your projectiles and give us a free approach. This is why it doesn't faze me if you have my fruit.

Also, if you want to approach, good luck finding a safe way over the trampoline considering you have no aerials that you can land with (or beat out the Invincible u-tilt that we'll throw out on your way over)

I think DHD should stay on the defensive. Pellet shielding can't stop everything if you follow up behind it so try to zone him out while looking for a hit confirm.

+2 for Pac-Man imo

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

Uhhhh...less lag? You have both more startup and end lag than pacman overall. 3/5/9/9/6 are the frames in which our aerials come out. Yours are 6/7/7/6/14. Our jabs and dash attack are the same speed, while Pac-Man's ftilt and utilt come out faster than yours. Your dtilt is one frame faster than ours though. Bair auto cancels, Fair has IASA frames, Nair and up air have low landing lag...

I don't see where this confusion came from. You have better range, but we should outspeed you pretty easily in attacks.

Pac-Man doesn't have to approach because we can just pellet shield your fruit once we have the lead, but if we do approach, all we have to do is Fair launch a hydrant at you and run behind it. It will destroy all of your projectiles and give us a free approach. This is why it doesn't faze me if you have my fruit.

Also, if you want to approach, good luck finding a safe way over the trampoline considering you have no aerials that you can land with (or beat out the Invincible u-tilt that we'll throw out on your way over)

I think DHD should stay on the defensive. Pellet shielding can stop everything if you follow up behind it so try to zone is out while looking for a hit confirm.

+2 for Pac-Man imo

Ah sorry man, my mistake! Thank you fer clearing that up! I'll amend that right now.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

@ chaos11011 : Clays can be spaced so as to be parked on the ledge (or sailing downwards to where he would be holding onto the ledge from), and when it's there, shooting it up can hit Villager there on the regrab. Cans too are capable of this. Clays can work whenever our Zigzag/Default Can is gone & we're too far from the ledge to DSmash him, and you're free to move and trigger it while it's floating downwards. Do remember that if Clay's out, we can't B-Press the Can until Clay's gone. Getting Clays to that position will require sneaking it past (Pushy) Lloids, Slingshots, and most importantly, the Explosive Balloons. Cans too will have to sneak past all of them. Mega Gunmen can at least block off Slingshots, but it'll lose to Pushy Lloids (regular Lloids will lose to Megas) and possibly the Balloons.

I'd personally rep Zigzag, because we get multiple B presses to catch him with, plus default can is avoidable by hiding under the stage or even hugging the wall, IF you don't properly set it up beforehand by starting it while close to the ledge and then BAiring or fastfall (Sweetspot) NAiring it (make sure your back is facing the ledge before NAiring it) towards the ledge. While it's rocketing over and away from the ledge, if you B press it then, the Can will bounce towards the ledge. On a walled Omega stage, if default Can collides with the wall with bounces remaining, those bounces will send it away from the ledge. Zigzag, however, upon colliding with the wall with bounces remaining, can be sent right back to that wall with every B button press quickly & easily. Despite Zigzag having less B-Button presses to hang out off-stage with, it can hang out below the ledge longer than Default is able to, and we're free to close in from the air via short and full hops. Villager's wall-jump will extend his air hang time, giving him more chances to counterattack (most notably with his BAir, the more powerful of his 2 Slingshots) before needing to use Up 2. This setup IS possible if you're wary of the Hidden Missiles during this assembly time, but for speed, air hang time, and ease of use, Zigzag might be the Can of choice against ChrisG styled Villagers.

I may edit this post to report more intel later today if no one else posts here by the time I come back.

 

[chaos11011]

I really need to work on my custom dog then. I've been reading up on the zigzag can from our threads and watching videos of @ DunnoBro (props to what you can do with the character btw) and man, does it feel awkward using it in practice. I'm gonna try a lot harder now to learn to use it as it's becoming more and more apparent that it's a custom that cannot be slept on. How did you all get into the habit of getting used to zigzag? I'm going to study it in training and probably beat up some computers to break into the new can (and then later use it in practice with my friends) but if there's a better way then please let me know!

My brother plays Pac Man but he doesn't make much use of the trampoline in neutral nor has he mastered the use of pellet healing so sharing my experience with the character would be outdated info really. I do think DH is a better zoner though and full hoping the clay pigeons to go over the hydrant and use as land mines when they reach the floor is pretty nifty though. That might be because my brother is worse than I at the zoning game though. I'll direct him to the Pac Man forums so he can learn more about his character so that in the future, I can have better words of wisdom against the character, as I fight his Pac Man with my DH practically a half a dozen times a day.

 

[DunnoBro]

I used zigzag a lot on cpus to get the feel for the inputs down, since it isn't like regular comboing.

You gotta get used to cutting the can combos short and jumping to combo yourself, because just one extra shot that you didn't need to do means you can't combo. Often they'll air dodge right too, and this lets you punish the air dodge when zigzag couldn't. This is most worth it during edgeguards.

I usually just mash shoot twice for max coverage/likeliness to hit but less likely to waste shots. Most good players will at least air dodge and this lets me consistently punish that.

Also remember, mega gunmen is needed to make zigzag worth it. It provides the perfect zoning and neutral option that zigzag needs to be more potent.

I'll be putting up my DHD combo video later today/this week. It's done but I just need to finish the intro/ending. It has footage from nearly a year of DHD useage (3ds to Wii U to Customs) so hopefully you can get some ideas from that

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

As some of you may remember, I've once made a big post in the Q&A Thread in response to Galaxian the Pac-Main's query about fighting us. To start off, here's the whole post, minus the Mario/Bowser Jr counterpick suggestions:

Allow me to begin by quoting myself from a thread in the Pac-Man character boards:

Against , Galaga ship (?), Bell, and Key will beat ALL of DH's projectiles, letting you get in on him. Every Fruit between Cherry & Melon, however, lose to all of DH's projectiles.

Your namesake, Galaxian, is what you'll want to charge up to, at least, for....

Another quote from myself in another thread in the Pac-Man boards regarding this MU from DH's perspective:

Perhaps has what it takes? Any fruit between Cherry and Melon are going to be blocked by the dog's Gunmen, Cans, and Clays. Said blocked Fruit will also be up for grabs once it collides with your arsenal, especially Gunmen, due to its quick & low endlag. Do note that you'll have to dash or air attack it to pick it up, otherwise said blocked Fruit will still hit you. However, as soon as Pac-Man reaches Galaxian Ship (?), consider your projectile shields ripe for piercing. Hydrants knocked your way will also pierce your entire arsenal. The water from Hydrants will simply pass through your arsenal without messing with any of them.

If you DO catch a Fruit, you can try to hold on to it as long as you can to deny him the ability to throw any more Fruits. Of course, by doing so, you'll also deny yourself the ability to use any A button attacks (including Smashes!) and grabs as well. As the canine, your overall mobility is pretty good (you can even crawl & wall-jump!), and you'll still get to chuck Cans, Gunmen, and especially Clays. These will become your main sources of damage dealing if you decide to hold on the Fruit, because without his Fruit, he'll likely try to approach you, especially once he sends the Hydrant flying your way. Hitting him out of Power Pellet before he eats it by hitting the Pellet itself will allow you a chance to heal yourself a bit from the Pellet he drops. If you're still holding on to a Fruit when you try to go pick up the Pellet, you may have to throw it away in order to heal yourself with the Pellet. If there's a way to pick up the Pellet without having to throw away the Fruit first, please let me know. Trampoline will beat your Can, which is one way he'll defend himself against your edgeguards. A DH without access to A moves & grabs (due to holding on to Fruit) will have to play a ranged game like Marth, and possibly even counter-camp.

And a quote from xzx from the same thread as the above quote from me that I liked:

Hey Splooshie Splashy, you can Z-drop the Bonus Fruit, then eat the Power Pellet, then regrab the Bonus Fruit.

If you really want to safely chuck any Fruit between Cherry & Melon, 1. KO the Gunmen, 2. Get past the Can, and 3. Be close enough for Clay to be too risky for the dog's comfort. Power Pellets are one option for accomplishing this, as are Trampolines, Hydrants, powershields, jumps, spotdodges, and rolls. As the above quote may imply, if the dog's carrying your Fruit, you're in trouble.

Definitely try to get in on him, since that's probably the hardest part of this MU for Pac. If the dog player's upclose game is any good, you'd better get ready for a slugfest with his FAirs (his longest range melee move), NAirs, FTilt, 6 frame DTilt, and 4 frame Jab. If/Once you do get in, in terms of sheer speed, however, you win, due to your generally faster A button moves, particularly your 4 frame FTilt, your seemingly spammable FAir (ala Luigi), and your low cooldown Dash Attack (which can push away Cans). Your KO moves are more reliable than his, and you can go deeper for the edgeguards against him than he can against you, even with wall-jumps off of walls, which the both of you are capable of.

To add to the above, airdodging towards the Fruit is another way to steal it (and Mechakoopas (Thanks AceStarThe3rd for this detail)). I'd also like to add that with good timing, our UAir can harmlessly clank with down-thrown Hydrant.

I'm still very much in agree-ance with my above post, and certain points in it seem to coincide with Pacman9's post (Hydrant usage and upclose melee attack speeds being in Pac's favor).

Match Vid references:
MVD's DH VS Abadango's Pac-Man at EVO 2015 (1 match only): https://youtu.be/2VSz_mTf9Lk?t=9m

DunnoBro's DH VS Zage's Pac-Man, Customs are On: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUchmO1TLAI

All non-wall-jump-able Omegas stagelist here in this livestreamed Loser's Bracket match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqPlmlm9L6g

Brood VS Abadango game 1 & 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWs0uMvTWkw
^, game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bZAGYv6-uM
@ Nu~ has shared great tech for countering our Fruit thieving: The Power Pellet & Trampoline. Pellet shielding is a wonderful way to ward off our arsenal (Sticking out a Pellet when Zard's Flare Blitzing towards you is a hilariously awesome way to stuff it, btw), including the stolen Fruit and especially our Clays, and if we're far away from the Pellet when it falls to the ground, Pac gets to heal off of it. As he also stated, if we're close by to the Pellet when it falls, not only do we get a chance to approach Pac, but we may also get to heal off of the Pellet.

All Power Pellet types (both the Pellet itself and the "Waka-Rush") will pierce all Gunmen types. All PP types can have their pellets attacked to stop them. If Pac reaches the "Waka-Rush" phase of PP, its super armor will help him pierce the entirety of our arsenal.

Trampoline during neutral is certainly a powerful space controlling option, since it makes our approach arcs more predictable, even when our arsenal's out to cover our approach. Pac's UTilt can beat even DH's fastfall NAir? Wow, I didn't even know Pac's UTilt was that good, since I don't play Pac as often as I do others. Now that I run Tap Jump OFF (including 3DS), next time I play him, I'll start challenging attacks with UTilt more often.

Pac-Man can immediately go from charging Fruit to any of his other specials by pressing the shield button and then immediately inputting Down/Side/Up B. He can do this both on the ground and in the air, so just because you're closeby while he's charging Fruit, it doesn't mean that we're going to punish him that easily.

For us Doggies, seeing Pac-Man reach Galaxian/Bell/Key and/or being 1 hit away from launching Hydrant and/or the Waka-Rush phase of PP is like seeing Super Turbo or 3rd Strike Chun-Li fill up a full bar of meter; The pace of the match drastically changes as our normally sturdy fortress becomes pierce-able with those 3 options. If we carelessly bring out our arsenal too close to him, aggressive Pac-Men will use 1 or more of those options to get in on us by breaking through our walls & freely moving around while said options are active (except for PP).

I definitely agree with rushing Pac down, especially when the above paragraph is occuring, because we can stop him from reaching Galaxian/Waka-Rush or launching Hydrants towards us with our arsenal & longer ranged A button moves, enhancing our close zoning abilities. As said earlier, we'll want to keep him at a range while rushing him down, since his A button moves generally outspeed ours.

Ratio without Customs: 0 or +1 when Pac has yet to reach the states of: Trampoline set up, Galaxian, Waka-Rush, or Hydrant's health being 1 hit away from being launched. 0 or -1 when such conditions has been reached.

Custom Loadouts:

Pac-Man will probably want to use either x312 or x322 or x212 or x222 or x112 or x122.
If I were to rep Pac in this MU, I'd probably run either 3122 or 1112.

We Doggies will want 3123.

Explanations are still under construction (as are FG Team strats for Villager & Pac, sadly. For now, I can at least say that having them as partners is like having Mega Man as a partner, in terms of how strong your campsite can be, as well as the amount of cover fire that can be generated as the both of you approach the other team).

EDIT: Here's FG Team strats for Pac-Man:

Before I get started here, I just want to say that Pac-Man has some of the strongest stage presence out of everyone. Once he sets things up, there is practically no ignoring him, whether as an ally or as a foe. His best Omega form is Walled stages, since he has a wall-jump.

As an ally: Like with Mega Man, the temptation to set up a fortified campsite is quite strong. Conversely, our ability to break into campsites are just as strong, especially if Pac reaches the above states. Pac-Buddy can do much for us (and anyone, really) when he's on our side.

Pac-Buddy can use his Trampoline to rescue you if you fail to recover, but Pac-Buddy must make sure to only bounce on his Trampoline once after starting it up instead of twice, since we'll take 1 of those bounces, leaving Pac with 2 instead of 3. If this point is forgotten, either you or Pac will helplessly fall into the abyss. Our recovery may be vulnerable to gimps (especially if Gunmen or Can is not out there), but if Pac's nearby, he can cover us wonderfully.

If you catch Pac's Fruit, do be courteous and throw it at the other team as soon as you can, hopefully setting up big damage or even KO chances with Pac-Buddy at your side while it's flying around.

Try to cover for Pac-Buddy as he's trying to reach the above states, especially if there's a campsite to invade. He may try to use Power Pellets to block off some attacks & provide a chance for you or him to heal off of dropped Pellets (especially potent if the attack in question is something like Zard's Flare Blitz), serving as practically the only Team Medic to be able to provide healing for the entire team instead of just energy absorbers or Robin via Nosferatu.

DO be wary of Hydrants near the edges, because if either you or Pac are pushed out by the water far enough to fail to recover, you will lose not only 1 point for falling, but also 2 points for the SD, making it a total of 3 points lost for this. Thus, leaving Hydrants near the edges when either you or Pac is trying to recover is a risky proposition.

Pac-Buddy will have to carry the burden of scoring KOs, but we can at least cover his already wonderful edgeguarding with our own arsenal while keeping the stage safe for him to return on. Hydrants can also KO at 100+%, so we can help knock it towards the other team. If we somehow have Bell or Key, those can either setup (Bell) or directly score a KO (Key).


Against him: Recall the Chun-Li meter comparison? The stakes here can either be greater or lessened, depending on the other 2 people that are in the room:
Allies like Triple D & DK will be hoping for you to help them get in on Pac before he figuratively fills up that bar of meter.
Allies like (T)Links & Sonic can either add to the projectile output of your team, or provide sheer pressure speed to help challenge Pac's states, including stopping him from reaching said states.
Allies like Falco & Roy not Koopa can help handle Pac's filled-up meters with their reflectors & counters, should he somehow reach those states.

If you've been defensive until those states, it's advisable to Paradigm Shift to the offensive with your partner once/if those states are reached, because those states are when your fortress will likely crumble.

Stealing Fruit, as much of a momentum stealer as it can be, may either create more or less gain for your team, depending on who the partners are. Also try to steal fallen Power Pellets for HP whenever you can (if you're at 0%, try to let your partner have it).

If Pac-Foe's running over to his recovering partner, he may be trying to set up Trampoline for the rescue (especially if said partner is someone like Little Mac or Dr. Mario or Ganondorf). If you read this, do your best to intercept it.


This applies to both above cases: Hydrants will likely have the entire room gather around it in hopes of knocking it towards the other team. Whoever wins this clash will likely be getting in on the other team, and may gain strong momentum as well.
Pacs should not expect to be able to use the water spewing part of Hydrants too often if both sides are at neutral, but the water can be easier used if Pac's side has the momentum.

 

[WispBae]

In regards to the Pac-Man MU, I honestly don't feel it's +2 in Pac's favor, as @ Nu~ mentioned. I think this MU is closer to even, honestly, or even +1 in Pac's favor, due to the fact that Pac has a hard time dealing with Trick Shot pressure overhead without risking getting hit or giving up stage control. His fruit are fantastic for dealing with it on the ground, though, so Doggy can't really use Trick Shot as a trap in this MU, more as a way to safely pressure.

Fire Hydrant pressure is annoying, but pretty easy to see coming, due to the nerf to the move (not being able to fall off Bair the hydrant so easily). In involves either Z-Dropping items, which the set up can be broken by a stray Clay Pigeon hit or Gunmen hit, F-Smashing, or doing the turnaround Pac-Pellet, the other two situations leaving Pac open to light punishes by ducking under the hydrant. I do think the Hydrant being an annoyance tool, however, is great in this MU, as it pushes Doggy and Trick Shot away, giving Pac-Man great stage control with a single move on flat stages, such as Smashville and Final Destination.

I'd give this MU more of a 0 or -1 for Doggy for the time being. I could see it being a -2 as @ Nu~ mentioned earlier in the future with some more new tech to deal with Doggy's Trick Shot, but for the time being I find it hard to agree with, as it mostly boils down to stage control.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Custom Loadouts for the DH VS Pac-Man MU:

Pac-Man's Custom Deck would probably be one of these: 1x12 or 2x12 or 1x32 or 2x32 or 1x11 or 2x11 or 1x31 or 2x31
Of these, 1x12 or 2x12 or 1x32 or 2x32 would probably be the more likely picks.

While I'd personally run 3322 as Pac against most folks, DH's arsenal will likely warrant a change in decks just for him. A fully Custom'd deck would be 2232. 2132 is almost fully Custom'd, and it's the deck I'd personally run for this MU.

Earlier, I wasn't really sure which of the Fruits to run here. I may mess with Pac's Customs from time to time, but I don't main him. There's been quite the debate between Freaky & Lazy Fruits over at the Pac boards as of late. Considering the might of our arsenal, we might see Freaky Fruit from him, if this guide (http://smashboards.com/threads/erratic-apple-a-small-guide-for-freaky-fruit-now-complete.383826/) and their recent debate at their Customs thread are anything to go by. Freaky Orange is as fast as Freaky Galaxian, but without its piercing powers. Freaky Galaxian is THEE Fruit to take notice, because its movement speed is the greatest of the 3 Galaxians, and it can still pierce our entire arsenal, truly making it like Chun-Li's SA2, Houyoku-Sen, in terms of being a power threat. Thus, either Bonus or Freaky will be the Fruits of Choice here. I may have thought Lazy Fruit was going to be used here, but as much as I love Lazy's long lingering time on the Fruits, Lazy Galaxian & Lazy Key's lack of forward distance hurts his ability to pierce DH's arsenal.

I'm really not sure which Pellet he'll bring. Enticing Power Pellet is my personal fav, due to its reliable KO-ing power in comparison to default via the Pellet's wind suction powers, but its slow startup (Waka-Rush speed is definitely faster than Distant's, at least) and its lack of forward distance, again, hurts his ability to pierce our arsenal. Distant's Pellet distance and start-up time may be wonderful, but its Waka-Rush speed is the slowest of the 3, and its KO power is the least reliable of the 3 as well. Thus, you MIGHT see default most likely, followed by Distant and then Enticing.

Again, I'm not sure which of the 3 Trampolines he'll be bringing. Power Pac-Jump, as far as I'm aware, has good synergy with Lazy Fruits. However, since he'll likely be running either Bonus or Freaky Fruit, this may not be picked. Up 2 also sacrifices default & Up 3's stage control powers during the neutral game, which he'll want to halt our approaches with. Meteor Trampoline is the worst of the 3 in terms of recovery distance, but it can still retain default's neutral game powers, and makes said neutral more punishing, due to it spiking or grounding anyone who lands on it when it's red. MT can also spike us in the same manner as Jr's Meteor Ejection, but faster without frame 9 super armor, and it requires being above us instead of on us. All 3 make wonderful guard cancel | OoS options that can make reckless approaches and juggle/follow-up overcommittals very risky. Of the Trampolines, default and Meteor will be the more likely options, with Meteor possibly being the most likely, given how vulnerable our recovery can still be, even with our Up 2 & 3. Since he'll not want to run Lazy Fruit, he'll probably not want to run Up 2 either.

I'm certain that either default or On-Fire Hydrant will be the Hydrant of choice against us Doggies. On-Fire Hydrant will spew actual fire 3 times on both sides (or just the top part if someone's above/standing on the Hydrant) before dissipating. Default's water does nothing to our arsenal, whereas On-Fire's, well, fire, not only pierces our entire arsenal (Gunmen and Cans, at least. I THINK Clay goes through the flames...*Testing required*), but it also bullies everything & everyone around it, Pac included. At high enough percents close to the edges, the flames can actually KO folks. At 100+%, it will for sure push folks off-stage, and if it's us it hits, it'll set up Pac-Ruled edgeguards. If positioned at the edges and you're at said edges, it can generate heavy pressure and possibly be a key component in edge lockdowns. If positioned on a platform like Smashville's 1 platform, it will practically deny anyone from being on or around that platform. While it can heavily restrict our movement, it can also restrict some of Pac's movement as well, given the last sentence. Galaxian/Bell/Key can safely go through it, unlike our arsenal (Clays being exception?), so keep an eye out for that.

With all of the above, Pac-Man's arsenal piercing abilities improve with these Custom decks.


We Doggies will likely want to run 3123.

Zigzag Can, as wonderfully demonstrated by our own DunnoBro, is a solid anti-air that, when coupled with our own upclose attacks, can EASILY rack up 20+% damage in 1 go, and it can also set up for crazy-early ceiling KOs (most apparent in DL64, Halberd, and Delfino). Said ceiling KOs are easier to do with this when Hydrant's not out on the field when we attempt to chase Pac upwards.

Duck Jump Snag will allow us to escape Pac-Man's juggles as quickly as he does with his Trampolines. It'll also help us not only hold on to stolen Fruits by virtue of an extra OoS anti-air attack we get to use while we're holding the Fruit, but also get us back to the stage against his deep edgeguards.

Mega Gunmen synergizes excellently with Zigzag, as DunnoBro also stated & shown, plus they are huge stop signs against all actual Fruits, making it easier for us to defend ourselves against those, and even steal them. It'll still lose to Galaxian/Bell/Key, however. Power Pellets (& and the Waka-Rush in its 2nd half) and launched Hydrants will also pierce it, as will On-Fire's... fire.


Maybe later today, I'll finally get around to FG Team strats with Villager...

 

[WispBae]

Thank you to all our participants, we shall begin Week 8 soon! This week we will be talking about the Lean Green Mr. L Luigi, the Amphibian Assassin Greninja, and one more random MU to be voted on! If nobody chooses, it shall be Kirby!

Why is this a thing... ugh...

VS

PROS! (For Doggy)

• Never has to approach in MU.
• Disjoints reach farther than Luigi's move set
• Trick Shot and Gunmen protect from fireball approaches.

CONS! (For Doggy)

• Luigi gets so much from getting in, very good at making games even.
• Many fast KO options.
• Slippery feet make it hard to punish him at times.

WHAT?! A MATCH UP WE ACTUALLY HAVE AN ADVANTAGE IN!? AND AGAINST A TOP TIER!? WHAT IS THIS, MELEE!?

Haha, in all seriousness though, this MU isn't too bad once your know what tools you have at your disposal. Luigi is character who has a hard time dealing with camping, and it just so happens Doggy is good at that.

On doggy's side, we've got Trick Shot. Most luigi's (at least in the current metagame) are always going for 1 of two options: Fireball and Grabs. Dash attack is very unsafe for him, and approaching from the air really isn't an option, due to his less than stellar air speed. Hence, why these are two of his best tools int the neutral, both being fast and relatively safe (although fireball being safer). This is an MU where Trick Shot lends itself to both roles of offense and defense. Gotta fireball happy luigi? Trick Shot will absorb hits while not moving, allowing you to safely set up gunmen, or attempt to poke with fairs from behind the safety of the Can. Now if you have a grab happy Weegee, then it's time to use Trick Shot offensively, by keeping him away from you on the ground and gaining stage control, or having it ready nearby in case you do get grabbed to immediately punish him and stop his amazing combo game. Pivot clay pigeons also work wonders on grab happy characters in general, although it does become predictable over time.

On weegee's side, however, you've got the fact that 1 grab can put you up to 50% in one go, meaning once he gets in, it's gonna hurt. Alot. Learning to properly DI will save you many headaches, but even then, once Luigi is close by and grabbing, he's got the advantage by a long shot. There is also the fact of Luigi's slippery traction making it a bother to punish him, as he can get free upsmashes with them. If you don't shield, well, you're KO'd. If you do shield, he slides away. Spotdoge? Another free smash attempt. Rolling towards him? Grabs. Mix in the fact that he can KO off a grab, has multiple mix-up options, and way to frame lock characters into more grabs, and it makes for a scary character who controls the up close game. Offstage he is also a tear, and the missle is not something I would mess with, unless you are feeling lucky.

I'd give Doggy a +1 in this MU, as it can be very, very easy if you keep a cool head and use the tools you have to break Luigi's neutral game. The fact that Luigi can bring games back to even so fast, however,with his many KO set ups and KO options means I don't see this MU getting a better score or even getting easier. Don't sleep on Luigi, he's the comeback king. Respect the spacing, keep stage control, run away even if you have to, and you'll be OK. Normally I don't like Duck Hunt for Doggy, but I think this is a pretty decent stage for camping, sooo... abuse it.

 

[Steelballray]

Hello. I would say this match up is a skill match up with us having the advantage cause zoning the entire match doesn't seem all that realistic. I played vs. doggy players who zoned so well with all of their tools and never let me approach, but once they decided to step in for the kill one throw and some boxing managed to take them out for good. I know the can can kill so you don't even have to approach at all, but our fire ball can take out some of your projectiles and the percentage of the can killing is slightly below 200% if I remember correctly (do correct me) so sneaking in might not be all that hard after all, and once we are in, I don't think anything beats our framedate so you will definitely die.
Doesn't seem like a very bright match up for you guys, unless I'm mistaken about the can and it can kill way below what I thought.

 

[WispBae]

Hello. I would say this match up is a skill match up with us having the advantage cause zoning the entire match doesn't seem all that realistic. I played vs. doggy players who zoned so well with all of their tools and never let me approach, but once they decided to step in for the kill one throw and some boxing managed to take them out for good. I know the can can kill so you don't even have to approach at all, but our fire ball can take out some of your projectiles and the percentage of the can killing is slightly below 200% if I remember correctly (do correct me) so sneaking in might not be all that hard after all, and once we are in, I don't think anything beats our framedate so you will definitely die.
Doesn't seem like a very bright match up for you guys, unless I'm mistaken about the can and it can kill way below what I thought.

When talking about MU discussion, we must keep in mind both players are playing at "their absolute best", so skill isn't really a factor to consider. While I do mention it from time to time, it is often with regards to habits players have (constant rolling, spamming moves, etc), rather than the determining factor of the MU. Sure, it may matter in tourney, and the player with more skill will always win, but in MU talk, always assume it's both people playing fantastically.

Doggy usually starts netting KO's around 150+ while playing in a safe manner (not searching for hard reads like Smashes). 200+ KO's, like you mentioned, are actually the result of staling, so playing Doggy's who only use projectiles are the ones having the harder time KO'ing, where players will more variety will be able to get KO's much more easily from an up-tilt, up-air, or fresh Trick Shot.

Fresh Can KO's, (especially from off stage) are usually going to kill around 120, semi-stale at around 150, and completely stale at around 200. As long as you don't approach and keep using all his moves, finishing stocks still won't be the easiest, but you won't have your opponent living up to super high percentages.

You bring up a good point, however, that the moveset does have to be fresh (especially Trick Shot) for it to KO, which is a bit harder since the Can is such a good tool in the neutral.

Edit: I forgot to mention up close, Doggy totally crumbles under pressure, so while I do think the MU is slightly in Doggy's advantage, a Luigi who is very good at reading techs and patterns will obliterate Doggy, due to his amazing combo game. As for the recent buffs and changes, I'm not sure how they would affect things, to be honest. Could you explain to us how the buffs affect Weegee, @ Steelballray ?

 

[Steelballray]

When talking about MU discussion, we must keep in mind both players are playing at "their absolute best", so skill isn't really a factor to consider. While I do mention it from time to time, it is often with regards to habits players have (constant rolling, spamming moves, etc), rather than the determining factor of the MU. Sure, it may matter in tourney, and the player with more skill will always win, but in MU talk, always assume it's both people playing fantastically.

Doggy usually starts netting KO's around 150+ while playing in a safe manner (not searching for hard reads like Smashes). 200+ KO's, like you mentioned, are actually the result of staling, so playing Doggy's who only use projectiles are the ones having the harder time KO'ing, where players will more variety will be able to get KO's much more easily from an up-tilt, up-air, or fresh Trick Shot.

Fresh Can KO's, (especially from off stage) are usually going to kill around 120, semi-stale at around 150, and completely stale at around 200. As long as you don't approach and keep using all his moves, finishing stocks still won't be the easiest, but you won't have your opponent living up to super high percentages.

You bring up a good point, however, that the moveset does have to be fresh (especially Trick Shot) for it to KO, which is a bit harder since the Can is such a good tool in the neutral.

Edit: I forgot to mention up close, Doggy totally crumbles under pressure, so while I do think the MU is slightly in Doggy's advantage, a Luigi who is very good at reading techs and patterns will obliterate Doggy, due to his amazing combo game. As for the recent buffs and changes, I'm not sure how they would affect things, to be honest. Could you explain to us how the buffs affect Weegee, @ Steelballray ?

Well, the down tilt is now faster and has a chance to trip, but its range is too low for it to be that useful. but if it does connect and it trips that means a free Jump Fire Punch for us, which is the second thing that was buffed in our arsenal. as it now kills around 10% earlier and has a larger, easier to hit hitbox. Fair is one percent weaker, hitting for 8% instead of 9% BUT thats also kinda a buff because several famous Luigi players reported that they have the ability to do more combos with it now since less damage equals less knockback equals more combos. the fireballs received a straight up nerf tho, we used to spam it a lot to gain distance and inflect damage and set up for grabs very easily, but with its endlag increased now it can be punished even if it hits if the enemy is close enough since we cant move till a bit later.. its only a few frames tho so the fireball is still very useful for spacing but throwing it in a short distance can prove to be a fatal mistake against a speedy character.

About the match up versus Duckhunt, I dont think much changes, our ability to break your projectiles with the fireball is only a little bit reduced. the fire jump punch is useful but the move remains a very risky option, though if a player is too used to its hitbox and Dunkhunt's hurtbox he can go for it with a little bit of less fear.

I still think this match up is for us, its not impossible to perfect shield your projectiles and avoid them and once we get in I don't think you have anything that beats us.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Whens Kirby?

 

[WispBae]

Whens Kirby?

Soon! I've just been swamped this week with college work, so the rest of the MU discussions will probably be delayed until Monday or Tuesday. I'll leave it open for the whole week though, and will have plenty to say on Greninja and Kirby, as they are two MU's I have fought and played as (Kirby) a lot!

Sorry for the delays, 'tis the sad truth of a college student. -.-

 

[WispBae]

Time for the pink puffball, Kirby!

"...wait a minute... something isn't right here..."

"Much better!"

VS
PROS! (For Doggy)

• Doggy out ranges Kirby on most of his attacks.
• Trick Shot shuts down many of Kirby's approaches.
• Ducking against gunmen is very risky, since Doggy can approach with a grab and be covered.

CONS!(For Doggy)

• Kirby's option coverage is ridiculously good.
• Some of the best edgeguarding in the game.
• Multiple jumps makes baiting very easy, impatient players will crumble.

I'd just like to note, if Doggy and Robin weren't in Smash 4, this would probably be my main. I love Kirby, the games, and the character so much. I just wish he was my PM puffball<3.

...ahem... anyways...

This MU is quite the intricate game of baiting on both ends, but I would give Doggy the slight advantage because of his fast moveset and Kirby's light weight.

On Doggy's side, Trick Shot is a great tool in the MU. Without a projectile to counter it, having it out stops Kirby's safe approaches, as it can cover the blind spot Kirbs loves to use on most projectile characters (above them, slightly in front of them). Since Trick Shot can be controlled as well, it gives Kirby quite the hard time when it is being used correctly, stopping aerial and grounded approaches. He can roll around it, but it is punishable with a grab, and it is usually not recommended in Smash that you approach anyone in any MU's by rolling into them. Clay pigeon is a no-no in this MU, as Kirby can just duck under it and get in easy. The endlag on it does not help either. Gunmen can be somewhat useful in this MU to stop ground approaches and stop Kirby from crouch camping, but isn't really recommended in the MU, since just jumping over it is a hard counter, and if Kirby knows how to do one thing, it's jump. Fairs with Trick Shot pressure are the way to go, along with pivot tilts to keep poking and chipping at the puffball. With Kirby being on the lighter side as well and U-Air being pretty disjoined, getting KO's won't be as bad as other MU's.

On Kirby's side though, when he gets in, he's very much a combo machine like Luigi. Frame traps, his great up-tilt, and some of the best edgeguarding in the game give Kirby some serious bite once he's up close and personal. His fast moveset can be hard to combat, which is why I tend to keep away from him as much as I can. If Doggy is offstage too, you better be ready with a Trick Shot to cover your recovery, lest the drill stomps, footstools and stage spikes take you.

I'd give Doggy a +1 for this MU. He has the tools to deal with Kirby, but 1 mistake can cost you the whole game, especially when you are offstage. Stay away, use big stages, treat it similarly to the Luigi MU.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I think this MU is in DH's favor also. Kirby's big weakness is his inability to approach, and duck hunt can keep Kirby away really well, and Kirby can't get in cuz his approach options are limited.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Sorry for stealing your photo schtick, folks, but I REALLY want to use this one:

For those who are inexperienced with fighting off Kirbies who have successfully copied our default Cans and make good use of them, that might be a Face of Evil kicking a Can of Worms....


DH VS Kaabi </Japanese Anime Dub (aka the original not-ruined-by-4Kids version) Fanboy who actually LIKES Fumu 'n Bun (aka Tiff 'n Tuff)>


Pros (for Doggy)

We're heavier than him, allowing us to last longer with good DI. Thus, our normally low power KO is somewhat mitigated by his light weight.
While we're very much capable of rushing him down, we benefit more from laming him out with our arsenal, since he struggles in reaching us (less than King Dedede at least).
Unlike many abilities, our Can isn't as straightforward to use, it's blockable by our entire arsenal, and it can even backfire on him for (direct) damage/KO setups.
Our melee range generally outranges his.
Our arsenal can help us juggle him from a farther distance.
Said arsenal can also be produced faster than Kirby's (including our copied Can if he has it).


Cons (for Doggy)

Superior recovery
^ is also why he can go to the depths of the edges for the deep edgeguards and still come back safely, especially if he's running Upper Cutter (Up 3).
Up 1 CAN spike us. Up 3 can stage spike us if we don't tech it.
Can Kirbicide you with Neutral 1 if you go very far off-stage for the edgeguard (this can somewhat be mitigated with a wall for the wall-jump). Said Kirbicide becomes more horizontal and aggressive in use at virtually any percent with Neutral 3 at stages like Smashville, Castle Siege, and Delfino.
If he copies our default Can and has actually practiced using it, the whole pace of the match can turn around in that instant.
The projectile part of his Up 1, Final Cutter, and his Up 2, Wave Cutter, can pierce our entire arsenal (pushes Cans, breaks Clays, and OHKOs Default/Quick Gunmen. It pierces Megas.) and still hit us. Subtract this point if Upper Cutter is being run.


Match vid references:

Most recent tournament match vid, courtesy of Croi (as he said, skip to games 4 & 5): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-bQd998pUk

Most recent Weekly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgatq_n3ZLY

CATI Smash 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSeIj840KGU


Our basic starting question: Can we lame out the Batamon? Despite his short stature, yes. It's in our best interests that we do so, considering not only his sheer juggle powers, but also for our Copy Ability that, unlike what some characters have (Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Ness, etc.), he will actually want to have.

Can he be rushed down? Yes, due to our greater melee range and the cover fire we can generate. Do you gain more from laming him out? Yes! The risk of him copying our default Can is too great for us to take comfortably, and his juggle damage output upclose can exceed ours at that range, especially now that his FThrow is a genuine juggle throw.


Here are some of Kirby's approach options outside of the traditional defensive options (rolls, spotdodges, jumps, powershields, etc.):

Crouch: Clays and Gunshots sail right over his head when he's crouching. If you can catch him looking away from the screen, that's your time to Clay or Gunshot him, since him looking away from the screen increases his height, and therefore makes him unable to easily duck under Clays. 'Course, actually catching him crouching that long is rarely going to happen, so don't count on this. I'd recommend listening to both Wispy and Croi about the use of Clays, in that we should use them sparingly against the Batamon. At least Gunmen and especially Cans in general will threaten his crouch (Gunmen sets up grabs), so they will be your most distant & reliable anti-crouch options.

DTilt: Unlike Jigglypuff's DTilt, this maintains his lowered profile, and it can trip you, possibly setting you up for a damaging follow-up due to the disadvantageous position it can put you in.

Giant Hammer: Constant super armor makes traversing our arsenal a breeze, even when he's in the air... until you grab him. Make sure you're behind him when you go for the grab, since he can't immediately swing his hammer behind him. While seeing him fully charge it is incredibly intimidating, if he's below 100%, it'll build up his percentage until he either gets grabbed or swings the Hammer.

Stone?? While it COULD be the most obvious of methods, I DO want to note that one of their notable tricks involving Stone is to mash out of Stone and then mash out an aerial after recovering from Stone in anticipation of you running in for either a grab or a high damage/KO power move. If/When you decide to run in for the punish, be wary of his aerial follow-ups post-Stone if he makes it to that point. Default Stone also makes chasing him upwards very risky, since it can beat our UAir if we don't time it right. If you're going to chase him upwards, go from the sides instead of directly underneath him.

Final Cutter: When Customs are off, this will be his only projectile, and it'll pierce through our entire arsenal. Unlike Wave Cutter, the blade itself can hit you at all times, and if you're hit by it without both the last upward-launching hit and any solid ground below you, you'll be strongly spiked.

Upper Cutter: While this is not a projectile, this does make some aerial approaches quite risky, due to how fast this move comes out. This move triggers Counters without actually getting hit by them (Iai Counter will probably catch it, though). It's THAT fast.


And now for one of Kirby's basic questions: Is our Copy Ability worth taking? Yes, our ability is definitely worth stealing for Kirby, so do your best in preventing this with your arsenal, aerials, and sheer movement speed. Those 3 are what makes it easier for us to keep him out in comparison to most other characters. However, the 1.1.0 patch has sped up his default Inhale, both in start-up and in recovery, making his ability-stealing and Kirbicide threats stronger.

Our Trick Shot, should Kirby succeed in copying it, gives him an approach option, more stage control, an eventual KO move, a supplement to his already fantastic edgeguards, and more. Combatting his Can will require disrespecting it with aerials (FAir is one of our best moves for this), our own arsenal (Gunmen & hopefully Zigzag Can in particular), and DTilt, much like it is in the DH Ditto MU. Dealing with a Kirby that takes advantage of his greater aerial freedom when the Can's out MIGHT be a daunting force to be reckoned with, but we can still outrange him, and our projectile output still exceeds his.

The sheer fear of him copying our Can might be enough for him to sneak in free hits on us, due to betrayal of expectations. If he senses your fear, he can capitalize on it by using other attacks in place of (Jumping) Inhale. He very much can beat you without ever copying your Can if he senses great fear of that idea in you, so being prepared and having plans for the idea that he'll succeed in copying our Trick Shot will help us combat it. While Croi had marvelously prevented him from copying our default Can during the entire set, we must still prepare for that one time where Kirby DOES sneak in the (Jumping) Inhale past our arsenal.


Custom Loadouts:

Kirby will likely run 323x or 333x or 322x or 332x. Most likely decks will be 323x or 333x.

Neutral 2, Ice Breath, will not be seen, because he'll likely want our default Can too much to give it up.

Jumping Inhale lets Kirby rocket towards you off the ground with his mouth wide open, making it easier for him to copy our default Can. Thankfully for us, he canNOT copy our Zigzag Can, only our default Can. This boosts his horizontal movement speed, including his recovery, IF he doesn't have our ability, and if we're both close to the edges (especially at stages like Smashville, Castle Siege, and Delfino), he can Kirbicide us horizontally, especially if he's up a stock. Its start up is slower than the new default Inhale, and its horizontal movement distance is half the length of FD. Its horizontal suction range is shorter than default Inhale's, as indicated by the lack of white wind suction details.

Hammer Bash is the fastest of his 3 Hammers, and it's also THEE Brawl Hammer, minus the charging. It boosts his air-time if used in the air, extending his stalling powers.

Giant Hammer has super armor all throughout, letting him slowly walk or jump (this is faster than walking) through our entire arsenal, including our melee attacks, but its start-up, walk speed, and charge time is very slow. He's also left wide open to grabs from behind, and anything he walks or jumps through will still deal damage to him.

Wave Cutter can wreck our entire arsenal all at once, even Clays if they're close to the ground, and hit us as well if we're close by. Unlike the other Cutters, the blade does NOT hit at any point during the move, only the ground rocks, which CAN KO us at 150+% near the edges. It's also the 2nd fastest of the 3 Cutters.
Upper Cutter does much for him. It boosts his recovery distance & speed, gives him an actual anti-air KO move (including stage spikes), and helps him escape our juggles while possibly hitting us in return. This is the absolute fastest of his 3 Cutters, yet it has no projectile, removing an option for him to confront our arsenal with.

Not sure which Stone to run here. Meteor Stone can devastate our recovery earlier than default Stone can, due to its start-up being the fastest of the 3, but he loses an early on-stage anti-ground/roofchase KO threat (IF the opponent DOES tech the groundbounce. If he does NOT tech it, then it'll take some more percent than default Stone to score the KO, depending on how close the opponent is to the floor when you land it), and its endlag is the worst of the 3. The KO percent to look out for if Down 3 is in use is 150+%. Grounding Stone's startup is the slowest of the 3, but its endlag is the least of the 3 (The Bleach DS style of move strength versions seem to apply here. :D), and its upwards KO power is lower than default and even Meteor Stone's.


We'll run either 3122 or 3123. I'd personally pick 3122.

Zigzag Can will definitely harass Kirby's air space, especially since his horizontal air speed is terrible, and while his small size can make it harder to land thee Zigzags, pulling it off can rack up 20+% damage in 1 go. Zigzag can definitely compete with Kirby's copied Trick Shot, due to its sheer movement speed, its anti-air-friendly arcs (sharks platforms!), and the fact that if our Zigzag clashes with his copied Trick Shot, our Zigzag will win the clash, due to his Trick Shot blowing up while our Zigzag sticks around, remaining able to be B-pressed after the clash.

Duck Jump Snag lets us escape juggles as well as Kirby can with his Upper Cutter. It'll also help us return to the stage against his far-out edgeguarding powers, especially if there's a wall for us to wall-jump off of. DO be wary about trying to challenge his Stones with this?? (This point could use some testing). While it CAN challenge copied Trick Shots, if it's being actively B-Pressed, don't expect to reliably beat it with this move.

QDA can be more useful here, since he'll likely trade in his 1 projectile for Upper Cutter, essentially removing the 1 default threat he has against our arsenal. If he copies our Can, it can still guard us from those explosions, though not for as long as the other 2 Gunmen can. I personally would run QDA, since his projectile output is lower than ours, and Final/Wave Cutters will pierce all Gunmen anyways, so at least they'll be able to get their shots out faster.

Mega Gunmen, coupled with Zigzag, DOES create the kind of pressure that DunnoBro mentioned, since again, his horizontal air speed is poor. If he runs Final or Wave Cutter, even Megas will be pierced (but not KO'd in 1 go), so keep that in mind. It'll also serve as a stop sign against default Cans if Kirby succeeds in copying our ability.


Stage Picks: As Wispy said, big stages are great for defensive Doggies to run around in and away from Kirby. I'd personally recommend picking Walled Omegas and thee Duck Hunt stage if walled Omegas are forbidden to help us survive Kirbicides. While Hyrule Castle 64 is likely a banned stage, Tourney Mode visitors will probably wind up there at some point, so you'll have its walls for the wall-jump as well.


FG Teams:

As an ally: Like with the King of Dreamland, you'll need to escort him inside any campsites. However, he is at least faster and smaller than the King, plus he has Final Cutter and even Inhale to help out with breaking into campsites. If folks like Rosalina, Pac-Man, or ROB are on the other team, do all that you can to help him copy their abilities. A Kirby with their abilities can definitely turn the tides of battle for whoever he's with. Even if he doesn't bother going for the abilities, it's still important to escort him inside, so he can get his high-damaging juggles started.

He definitely can handle the burden of KO-ing folks, due to his plethora of reliable KO moves. He can also go incredibly deep for the edgeguards, due to his awesome recovery, which you yourself can help make both safer & more threatening with both yourself & your arsenal, including his return to the stage.

You're heavier than he is, and you can fight folks from farther away, so you'll likely be the Point Tank.

If your Kirby buddy decides to go for the Kirbicide, help set him up for it, and wall out the victim's partner for as long as you can. If the victim breaks free, hope you're nearby for both punishing the victim and covering your buddy, who might actually be in danger of getting counter-gimped for the attempted Kirbicide, depending on who he tried to do that to.


Against him: If a Kirby actively tries to take abilities from folks, rather than Kirbiciding, you better hope there aren't any Alphs, Robins, or especially Shulks on the field. If there is, and said person is your partner, protect your team by laming him out! Good Batamons that have practiced using such abilities will quickly reverse the momentum against your team with them, so try to prevent them from doing so for as long as you can. You'll probably have to double up on your wall-outs, considering how appealing our Can and our partner's ability may be to him. If Kirby's allied with someone like Jr, Sonic, or Zelda, your fortress can be threatened, making lameouts harder to do. An ability-taking Kirby that is unable to take abilities is a boon for the wallers, for that means free damage for every Swallow attempt that fails.

Stone spammers are easy to tell, IF his partner doesn't distract you long enough. Wait it out, approach from the sides, or even bait it for a hard punish.

Now if you're like me and you consciously pick folks like Alph and Pac-Man and even Robin against Kirby, you're either a gutsy troll looking to teasingly tantalize them like as if you're one of the members of the Mice Mafia-- er, Rat Yakuza-- er, *sigh* "Squeak Squad" pre-Mass (Moe) Attack, or you're a thrill-seeker looking to engage in a high-stakes game of tag where the fate of the match can very much depend on whether or not the enemy Kirby can not only copy your ability, but also make proper use of it if/when he DOES copy it.

I personally find fighting Kirbies that actively try to take abilities to be among the most enjoyable Kirbies to challenge, since it's a test of who can use Neutral B the best if they DO catch you, and before that, it's a heated tag tussle to stay out of Kirby's mouth for as long as possible. Said tussle becomes really heated in Teams, since there's multiple people around to raise the stakes surrounding this struggle. A Kirby with a copied ability that he's practiced with can really transform the entire pace of the match, and the consequences of getting tagged are room-wide, and can possibly last to the end of the match.

Against a Kirbicider, try to keep your distance with your arsenal. If he's close enough to make using your arsenal uncomfortable (or if Can's knocked away/going to be B-pressed away from him, and/or Gunman's KO'd), try to shorthop FAir from max range, preferably from behind. While you can come in from above or behind, it won't be necessary... IF you're with a partner that can join you in keeping distance. It's possible that your partner will be someone that has no choice but to risk getting up close to him (ex. Falcon, Ganondorf, Marthcina), so you'll be carrying the burden of distantly stuffing his Inhale. If you get caught in his Inhale somehow, mash buttons & spin the stick as fast as you can to escape, and hope there's a wall for you to wall-jump off of. If your partner gets caught, hopefully you're close by and away from Kirby's partner for the rescue. Either way, this can also be your chance to counter-gimp Kirby for this.


With a Kirby AND against another Kirby:
An odd question of priorities: "Should I let myself get swallowed by the enemy Kirby so can I try to setup my buddy Kirby for the ability steal? Or is the enemy Kirby's partner's ability worth trying to set up my buddy Kirby for the copy?"
Such questions can exist, because there's no friendly fire. I'd suggest err-ing on the side of safety by denying the enemy Kirby the chance to steal your ability. If you happen to get caught long enough for the enemy Kirby to secure the copy, THEN you can try to setup your Kirby buddy for the ability steal, which if you succeed, will allow your buddy Kirby to have your Neutral B move while completely robbing the enemy Kirby of that B move (thanks Loading Screen Tips~). Otherwise, I'd recommend saying yes to the latter question.
With 2 or more Kirbies on the field, multiple Kirbicides can occur, and if both Batamons are closeby when one of them is actively attempting to Kirbiciding, a counter-Kirbicide could very well happen. Do your best in keeping track of which Batamon is on whose team, otherwise you may be lobbing your arsenal at the wrong one.


Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: +1 in DH's favor if Kirby does NOT have our default Can copied. 0 even if Kirby DOES have it.
With Customs: 0 even, regardless of whether or not Kirby has our default Can.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I have 50:50, but I havn't faced any recently so I can't contain a summery. If I play one soon I'll post a summery

 

[TriTails]

Just popping in to say Luigi's Fireballs neutralizes both your Side-B and gunmen. Trick Shot (Can, right?) is, well, tricky. But in general, it shouldn't be too hard mixing up options. Luigi can shield, roll, run under it if you're being too B happy, SHAD, etc. I honestly rarely ever got the problems going around the can due to its inability to go backwards.

Up close, we can combo you hard. I'm pretty sure all of your aerials lose to U-smash, and Luigi's aerials hit hard (F5 11% U-air, F6 14% B-air) enough to ramp up your damage quick. I'm a fan of SHFF aerials with Luigi, but I'm unsure how DHD's aerials go against them.

Off-stage, Luigi can gimp DHD quite well. Ranging from poking in with a 8% F-air to 10% D-air spiking to going for 14% B-air that kills. Again, I'm unsure how DHD gimp Luigi.

And also, Luigi is more than just a grab mecha with the ability to shoot out flames. Keep this in mind. Last thing you want is to get hit in the face by 14% B-air or U-tilt/sour N-air to Nado shenanigans.

On a side note (Not directed directly at anyone): Honestly. It kinda irks me when people think Luigi is just a grab bot. He can get grabs, he wins. He can't, he lose. Yeah, well, I have fought this MK that constantly switch his rolls around with DC and is basically pretty darn hard to get a grab. Still won due to Luigi's amazing aerials and smashes. Luigi's original power comes from his aerials, never, ever forget that. Without his aerials, his D-throw is just another D-throw.

 

[-Shiro-]

Das me

 

[Shady Penguin]

I personally don't like the Luigi match-up simply because his fireball is verrrrry good at neutralizing Trick Shot and things become an absolute slaughter up-close.

It's also worth noting that Duck Hunt's lack of kill power often gives Luigi great opportunities to use rage for crazily early kills.

I think it's in Luigi's favor, but that might just be me personally struggling with the match-up.

 

[MJG]

I know I'm late but one thing I'd like to add for villager: I usually prefer to use slingshots to stop the can and Frisbee (idk the official names) and it's obviously dependent on what's going on in regards to my pocket game since I don't wanna be punished easily. I think the best projectile to pocket is the gunslinger's shot due to its priority. I don't find that easy to pocket. It's a giant food fight

Bye

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I'd say against Luigi, it's a fairly even match-up, with one exception - his down-B spin (which breaks/interrupts everything and is difficult to punish from shield).

Frisbee will disrupt his forward-B (even slow-down or stop if done right with a shot) and will override one of his fireballs once it gets past mid-range (which, given Luigi's already short distance for fireballs, works to DHD's advantage). The gunmen can easily counter fireball given the distance factor.

Duck hunt duo's real issue is close range combo-locks from the green man, which given the down-B goes into a spin lock without disruption, becomes decidedly dangerous if you don't use can to break combo lock or air dodge with good speed.

Most Luigis in my experience do a jump before entering a down-B, and it can be 'punished' (if you can call it that?) by roll dodging, using a frisbee at it's end (that forces shield) and then either a jab or grab as appropriate on the shield.

Greninja, on the other hand, is a speedster nightmare. Against DHD's frame lag on attacks, it means GN gets easy punishes, where-as DHD gets little opportunity to respond. He also runs faster than the frisbee, which means he can literally outrun it, rendering it moot. It's the same issue you'd encounter as with Sonic types.

 

[WispBae]

Howdy Doggies, sorry for the delay, but we are back on and barking up trees!

This week we will be discussing the Aquatic Amphibian Assassin, Greninja, making more animal abuse claims with Micheal Vick Little Mac, and one more random MU to be voted on! If nobody votes, it shall be Mr. Game & Watch!

"...uhm..."

VS

Pros! (For Doggy!)

• Greninja being a heavy fast faller makes him easier to combo.
• Doggy never has to approach in the MU, even with water shurikens.
• Very punishable recovery.

Cons! (For Doggy!)

• Doggy also has a very punishable recovery.
• Greninja has many frame traps once he gets in.
• Being so low to the ground makes him a pain to hit at times.

This MU is tricky to me... Not only because there aren't too many Greninjas around me, but I know when I played them, I was playing very badly...

On Doggy's side, you'll want to avoid using Clay Pigeon too often, as Greninja can just run underneath it. I would only use it at a very safe distance, and even then, cautiously. Keeping Trick Shot on the ground can stop him from running up, and Gunmen are decent with a good distance of closing his ground options. Once he's in mid-air, you just have to play cautiously, as his Nair has barely any lag on landing, and his Fair reaches a pretty good distance. Uncharged Water Shurikens can turn Trick Shot around, but it's not too big a deal, as it just means we can hit it back, or hide behind it if they like the light shurikens. As for the charged ones, they are very predictable and punishable, so they will likely not use this too much in the neutral, probably more as a mix up. Shadow Sneak is also very punishable, but remember to keep an eye out for it, as it will go past all the projectiles. If you see if coming, I would just shield and go for a grab or dash attack. They can also use it for escaping rapid hit moves (like rapid jab), but in my experience, this is still very punishable, with Greninja doing his cool "I DID IT!" pose.

On Greninja's side, once he gets in, things get tricky, he has a few frame traps with his u-airs and down throws. While not as strong as Luigi's, it is the same mindgame you have to play, with throws leading into 50/50 situations. He does have a much easier time getting KO's, in comparison, but they either will come from hard reads for reading options, again, leading into those 50/50 options. Greninja's recovery pretty exploitable, although Doggy's is as well, neither of them having hitboxes. Doggy does do a bit better offstage, however, as he does not fall that fast and it is a bit harder to gimp Doggy.

I'd give Doggy a -1 in this MU. Greninja can be walled out, but it can be a bit tricky. Once he gets in, however, he can do some real damage with a keen eye and mindgames. However, I avoid giving Doggy a worse score because when Doggy is in these bad situations, proper DI and knowing when to airdodge can mitigate the scenarios. It's much too hard to judge mindgames in an MU thread, as we should be considering both players are of maximum skill. I will say however, if the Greninja is in the Doggy's head, this is easily a -2 or -3 for Doggy. This MU needs more testing though, and this really isn't the place to be arguing over who has the best "mental game", as it varies from player to player.

 

[FullMoon]

Very punishable recovery.

No.

Just no.

Greninja has one of the safest and most reliable recoveries in the game, easily in the top 5. You must have played some really bad Greninja players if you think his recovery is punishable

Sorry if I came out as abrasive here but that is just so wrong.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Little Mac

It's hit and miss (figuratively speaking) with Little Mac: he has the advantage with his power moves when in close quarters combat against DHD's easy light launches, but DHD has the advantage when in the air over the edge, which means they both have advantages and disadvantages to each other.

Defeating Little Mac requires more technical ability than brute force: his running animation has the same issue as Greninja's in that frisbees miss, and his 'no flinch' when attacking is nightmarishly hard to beat and makes face-to-face fighting dangerous (as DHD is light and easily launched, which means if you fail to interrupt a heavy punch, usually means KO).

In-fact, he's one of the few fighters where DHD's projectile game is nullified on the ground:

Frisbees miss when running.
He can cover the entire length of an omega stage in the time it takes to deploy a gunman and deliver a punch.
Even if frisbee makes contact, if he's performing a punch, it will either break the frisbee (and because he's fast he can follow up with a repeat attack), or even if it hits, he will have 'no flinch'.
Cans do not cause him to flinch during standard punches, and definitely not against the charge-B punch.
His slip-counter will protect against frisbee and gunman, although he'll attack when hit by a can, he'll take explosive damages but not flinch.
Using the can when he's off-stage runs the risk of resetting his recovery when he might otherwise fall to his death, which means you have to make quick judgement calls whether or not to impact.

Normally DHD's game is to use projectiles to interrupt as an opening and attack. With Little Mac you're actually forced to fight close combat which is ironically where DHD is weakest. Once LM reaches high percent projectiles have a better effect - but most times he falls to his death during this period making them useless.


Essentially DHD has to rely on his air game to get an early KO, but if the Little Mac has decent shielding/counter/dodge technique this is easily nullified. Once over the ledge Little Mac can be forward/back aired out of his range safely, however the precise nature required to get the duck's beak and Mac's shield/counter/dodge makes this a risky move.

The addition of his KO move gives him an additional edge - so even if you damage him, he gets a potential free kill, which can occur twice in a single life (if it's drawn out), and at least once in most lives.

I'd say DHD is somewhat disadvantaged to Mac by -1, but only for one reason - the lack of flinching. If frisbee could flinch it'd be a fairer match up.

 

[WispBae]

Alright, onto Little Mac!

"Stock Alert is there for you!"

VS

PROS (For Doggy)

• Gets a ridiculous amount from camping.
• Fast and large grab helps with dealing with Mac up close.
• Trick Shot and Gunmen both stop approaches.

CONS (For Doggy)

• Mac is small enough to make pigeon almost useless.
• When he gets close, Doggy almost always loses.
• Stage counterpicks can make this MU feel unwinnable.

Man, this is an odd MU. Basically it's either one of two things: So free your opponent is forced to switch mid-set, or a bloody nightmare.

If I may, however, a little story.

I know this MU well because there is a Lil Mac and Sonic main in my area. I've only won in tourney against him, I haven't dropped a set to him yet. He often says after our sets "You should change your name to The Wall, I don't get how you're supposed to even get in!".

So at CEO2015, this friend and I are hanging out, and we start to play friendlies. I tend to not camp in friendlies, since I want the other person to have fun. But he told me "no, play me like you would in tourney". I normally play a bit of a mix of aggro and campy doggy, but I decided to go all camp on his Little Mac on Smashville.

I stayed on the platform the whole game. The WHOLE game. He couldn't even get on it. I took under 30% and the game almost went to time. He then turned to me and said "I never want to do that again."

Anyways, on Doggy's side, you got camping. So much camping. If the stage has platforms, abuse them like crazy. Forcing Mac into the air is cheesy, but it works very, very well. While I hesitate for timeouts, that will want to be your goal. Gunmen can slow approaches by Mac, and Trick Shot is good at just cutting off so many of his options. Clay Pigeon does not do well in the MU, however, as the lag is sooo punishable, not to mention Jolt Haymaker going past it easy as well as being able to run underneath it. If you do have to face him up close, quick, safe options are the name of the game. Don't stay near him. Grab and toss away, use your jab wisely, just stay as far away as you can. Don't be scared, but play cautiously.

On Mac's side. he wants to stay in Doggy's face. He racks up damage fast and KO's even faster. If FD isn't banned, he will probably take you there, where you have nowhere to hide. That or T&C, where platform camping is a little bit harder. Doggy can't fight him up close, he's much too fast and KO's very easily, which is a huge problem since, even in this MU, Doggy has a hard time finishing those stocks. Gunmen don't kill until super later, and Trick Shot will be very stale at high percents. Even then, it sends at a very safe angle, diagonally

This is really an MU that is wildly in either characters favor depending on the stage. As long as Doggy is hardcore set on camping, it's a +2 for Doggy, but if Little Mac can get in his face, it's a -2. Don't go to FD, and use those platforms to your advantage.

 

[jet56]

hm...ill be honest here, i don't face a lot of duck hunts but there is some things that little mac can do to get past the projectile wall.
1. projectiles, meet little macs side b, which was designed specifically for projectile spammers. it has invincibility on start up, and is fast enough to punish a slow projectile.
2. regarding the can, little mac can hit it back at Duck hunt, and he has super armor on his moves, so he can blow past projectiles as well.
3. little mac CAN jump over stuff, just because its not optimal doesn't mean it should be overlooked. i can't tell you how many times ive hopped over a pigeon or can, used nair (which comes out frame 2 btw), then went into smash doggys face in.

platforms, yeah they are a nuisance, but a patient mac is a good mac. and powershield is our best friend. i will admit its easier for DU to camp than it is for mac to shield and dodge everything, but if a mistake happens, and DU lets up, mac will come after you. TBH, a veteran mac player will already have a TON of experience in dealing with projectiles, and will look for an opening. if we have an FD stage, it becomes much easier for us. we could also just take the lead, then powershield the projectiles and force DU to approach us.

 

[WispBae]

we could also just take the lead, then powershield the projectiles and force DU to approach us.

The inherent problem with this though is that due to the nature of projectiles characters, even in the the percent deficit, projectile characters will force everyone to always approach. If Little Mac camps, it simply means free pressure from Duck Hunt. Shielding only gets you so far, eventually Clay Pigeon and Gunmen will poke through shield (sometimes Trick Shot as well, but it's much less rare since you have to use the reticule hitbox as opposed to the can hitbox).

If Mac camps against Toon Link, they will likely not move and just use bombs and boomerangs to get as much free, safe damage as possible. That's why the stage is so important to Mac, camping is inevitable, but with the correct stages Mac can control most of the area easy and make it hard. I'd think perhaps Caste Siege, Lylat, FD and T&C would be the best stages for him to deal with campers much more easily. Once he controls space, he's amazing, and his D-Smash is a fantastic tool against Doggy's poor recovery (especially with Trick Shot coverage, since he can power through the can's explosion, definitely a trade worth taking).

 

[jet56]

very true, i never said powershielding and camping as mac is a reliable strategy, but its a good way to get the other player nice and cozy with their projectile spamming, before, they throw out a pigeon or something else thats punishable, and think they can get away with it. or they grow impatient and approach. sometimes ill just do this for 20 to 30 seconds and see what they do.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

On Mac's side. he wants to stay in Doggy's face. He racks up damage fast and KO's even faster. If FD isn't banned, he will probably take you there, where you have nowhere to hide.

It's worth noting, if you're on a stage with no platforms (EG omega stages), jumping is usually the safest way to dodge a little Mac with no air game (he can up-B but one air dodge and it's punishable). Especially do this with his charge punch B attack as his attack can override shields and catch even well timed dodges. Roll dodging runs the risk of Mac's down-A attack (which is wide enough to catch the end roll). However, be wary on landing as Little Macs like to rush punish either with run and punch or side-B - frisbee usually does a good job with dealing with both, although air dodge also offers a possible defence.

Jumping is not advised when on high percentages though, as one lucky hit will launch to KO, however roll dodging offers shield and no free opening.

Be sure to back air punish little Macs who rush you near the edge, against low percents with poor reactions, it's fatal, and against high percents it pushes them out of range...

(Try to avoid staying near the ledge or making such a trick obvious as little Macs will become wary.)

 

[WispBae]

Soooo I was gonna start the G&W discussion...

But honestly I don't know the MU =[

If anyone would like to start it for me, I'd appreciate it!

The only G&W I've fought regularly is a pocket one from my friend (I usually win) and JKBUK's (which is on wifi, I'm always hesitant on MU's based off ONLY wifi, with Doggy being much harder with lag).

Edit: Adding visual bookmark!

 

[jet56]

ironically, i play G&W, he isn't my main though, but a solid secondary. G&W is a relatively slow character, and has difficult ways of approaching duck hunt. his down b doesn't help any here, and his neutral b gets beat out by DU's other moves. jumping in and either attacking with an aerial, or empty hopping and baiting out a shield are his best options, as he combos out of his throws well, and his jank hammer is always a danger.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Soooo I was gonna start the G&W discussion...

But honestly I don't know the MU =[

If anyone would like to start it for me, I'd appreciate it!

The only G&W I've fought regularly is a pocket one from my friend (I usually win) and JKBUK's (which is on wifi, I'm always hesitant on MU's based off ONLY wifi, with Doggy being much harder with lag).

I can speak of For Glory experience with game and watch.

He's pretty much a beatable character for duck hunt, the only main dangers are his '9' and his down A key attack, although his throw packs a punch too, it's pretty slow in execution.

Game and watch is one of those annoying characters to fight, where most moves will be cancelled, and essentially you're forced into the domain of frisbee interrupt spam. His down A key attack (which seems to have '360' effect) will make bairs and fairs tricky without risking a 'punish', however the attack has the same flaw as Link's down A: heavy landing. It's slightly faster than Link's in recovery time, but it's optimal for smash forward A finishes. On the ground game and watch is vulnerable to surprise back airs.

Your main issue in general will be frying pan spam (those food items might interrupt frisbee and make approach difficult), aerial attacks and the manhole cover attack - these can all be easily shielded, but be wary of a grab punish.

The real issue for DHD is if they become number happy - a '9' can KO pretty early, and avoiding being hit with DHD's slow frames of recovery is a nightmare. It's recommended to keep distance and projectile harass until they change tactics.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Before I get started here, I want to give shoutouts to and link 3 matches featuring GimR's G&W and DunnoBro's DH, who I'm certain do meet each other at the Xanadu Weeklies pretty often.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU1BS8O_G_w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyGVzwiH354

https://youtu.be/XoIdyCRiH_s?t=5m11s

All 3 matches linked have Customs On, and the decks are 332? (Not sure what his Down B was) for G&W during the 1st linked match (and 1111 during the 2nd & 3rd linked matches) and 3123 for DH during all matches.

These matches are certainly worth studying, even though they're pre-patches and months old, since not too much about these two changed between then and now, aside from G&W's DTilt gaining knockback, his UTilt's knockback direction being anti-throw-followup-y, his BAir having less landing lag, and DH's FSmash connecting slightly more consistently, his invincibility frames on his defensive maneuvers being reduced, and his jab strings dealing more damage. If I missed any patch notes, do let us know.

There anyone else other than these two, you may ask? Well there's... this: https://youtu.be/cIkzgsusARs?t=1m24s
While its presentation leaves me grasping for grains of salt, it at least seems to be a legit tournament match.

Now then, as someone who has been dabbling in G&W more often since his DTilt & BAir buffs (and also because of how uncommon/rare he can be in FG Anywhere & Tourney Mode, and even due to him being on the lower half of the tier list), G&W does have ways to get in on DH. Default Chef is one of such tools, because it can clash with our entire arsenal (Pushes Cans, breaks non-shot-up Clays, and KOs default Gunmen with 2-3 flapjacks). 'Course, Flat Men going for this approach method should expect Gunmen to pop up in response to this, especially if Customs are On for Mega, for default Gunmen can take 2-3 flapjacks before getting KO'd, which should help us forge a long enough opening for us to get in on G&W.

Chef is useful as cover fire. If customs are allowed, Short-Order Chef would likely show up, due to the amount of flapjacks he can flip onto the dog's arsenal to forge a path to him, so long as there's no Mega Gunmen to stop them.

As stated at the G&W boards, shot-up Clays can be Bucketed, as can stray Cans that self-detonate?? Considering both the rarity and the toughness in actually Bucketing those projectiles, if possible, running Efficient Panic would be advised, for he'll only have to pull it off once to fill up the whole Bucket.

Another way for G&W to break in is with his FTilt and DTilt, due to their great disjointed ranges that end surprisingly quick. Of the 2, DTilt starts up faster. They can bully our Can quite safely, so putting up a Gunman & or Clay Guardian in anticipation of this would be wise.

A theme surrounding his moves is that while they generally start up slowly (especially his Smashes), they generally end quickly. Bleach DS 1 & 2's Medium versions of many Specials comes to mind.

DTilt is a great move to use, due to its range & disjoint. He can disrespect the Can with it, much like how Bowser Jr is able to do so with his own DTilt.

If G&W takes to the air over our arsenal and we're expecting it, he'll have to get ready to clash with our long-range FAir, which we'll want to tipper with for max damage & knockback.

DH is not as vulnerable as he used to be when landing with his NAir active, since NAir's landing lag is reduced now.

G&W can duck low enough to avoid our normal/up-angled FTilt and USmash, as this vid by GimR himself shows: https://youtu.be/oDvk3PMTVH0?t=2m7s
He can also duck under our Clay (only if it's NOT shot-up), and yet not all of our Gunmen (Sombrero for sure catches him).

DTilt's & UAir's windboxes can keep you suspended in the air for a surprisingly long time, which can help setup for some of G&W's more risky options like anti-air Chefs and his Smashes (USmash in particular). At high enough percents, said wind can potentially even KO you without G&W himself actually hitting you with those moves, though this most often happens against Mewtwo & Jigglypuff & another Flat Man, due to them being among the 3 lightest characters out of everyone.

What's normally a problem for DH, KO-ing folks, isn't AS much of a problem here, due to G&W being one of the 3 lightest characters out of everyone (only Mewtwo & Puff are lighter than him). Speaking of KO-ing, G&W may have trouble landing his KO moves, but the KO power of those moves generally exceeds ours.

One of his most common Judge setups without Customs is Down Throw to Hopefully 9 at low percents.
Flat Men that are behind in stocks may fish for 9s in hopes of quickly evening out the stocks. Unlike some other characters, he does have a pseudo X-Factor in the form of 9s that he can try to spam.

Custom Loadouts: G&W: 32x2 or 33x2 or 12x2 or 13x2 would probably be his decks of choice for this MU. Of these decks, I'd personally run 3332 if I were G&W.

Short-Order Chef is his fastest Chef out of the 3, and its arc, while being a worse up-close anti-air, reaches further ahead, making confronting DH's arsenal easier. However, DH will likely be using Mega Gunmen in response to this, so while S-O's flapjacks will be completely blocked off by Mega, S-O's low cooldown will help with handling DH's Clay & Zigzag Can. S-O's damage output per flapjack is the lowest of the 3, but their interruption abilities can exceed even default Chef's, due to their sheer speed.

Efficient Panic will be his most reliable way to make sure he'll have something to spill onto DH, due to how difficult it'll be to absorb energy from shot-up Clays. Catching Zigzag Can naturally exploding on its own without any B Button Presses will be quite difficult, so being able to fill up the Bucket in 1 go will be very handy in confronting DH's arsenal. It may not KO as early as Default Bucket, but it'll be a more frequently usable move here. Its ability to maintain air hang time is on par with Default Bucket, so it still can be used for that purpose if it's empty.

It's a toss-up between Extreme & Chain Judges. Extreme is more reliable at getting the 9 out, but its KO power is lower. It's also more unreliable, due to the 1 showing up more often as well. You're basically flipping a coin every time you throw out Side 2, hoping that the 50% 9 happens and not the 50% 1.
Chain is the most reliable Judge in terms of usable hits, due to the number indicating the amount of hits that the hammer will deal. 9 is still the miracle KO move, but not getting it is nowhere as devastating as it would be with the other 2 Judges. Chain Judge would also help with confronting Mega Gunmen, due to the amount of hits it can deal. This will likely be the Judge of choice for this MU.

The Up B of choice here is up to personal preference??? I'm... really not sure which one would be best here. I personally am not a fan of Up 2, due to its short vertical distance worsening his recovery, but for a time, GimR DID make this work against DunnoBro and some other players.
I'm personally a fan of Up 3, due to how Melee-like it is, and yet its vertical height is superior to Up 1 (its horizontal distance is lacking, due to the lack of parachute). Its start-up is FAST in comparison to Up 1 as well, and it does more damage than it too?? For sure, it makes a great panic move to throw out to escape trouble with. It definitely launches people on startup farther than Up 1 does??
Once he starts falling, UNLIKE Melee, G&W is free to use any attack that's not Up 3 on the way down, as well as airdodges and fastfalls.

DH's deck is probably going to be either 3121, 1121, 3123, or 1123. I wholeheartedly agree with DunnoBro's 3123 deck pick here.

Zigzag is a wonderful anti-air that, sadly, won't be as easy to get the Zigzagging hits on as it would be against some other characters, due to his low weight, but DunnoBro has made this work wonderfully against GimR, so pay attention to Bro's use of it in the above matches for ideas.

Duck Jump Snag is our trusty wakeup DP.

Mega Gunmen will be big stop signs for his flapjacks. It'll take several servings of them to KO them, even the XXL Chef version, so if he wants them out of his way, he'll have to either melee attack them with moves like NAir or UAir or DTilt, or find another way past them. A single jab string may not deal enough damage quickly enough to work. He can duck under Mega's shots if he hears & sees it coming and isn't distracted by any of DH's other moves when the shot's about to start, so be wary of that.

Character Counterpick Ideas if your dog does not seem to be up to the challenge: Junior (while it may be expected of me to say this, I've read that folks on the Jr boards seem to think Jr has this MU in the bag), Shulk, Bowser, Dedede, Donkey Kong, other heavyweights, and if you're okay with being called a "sellout" or otherwise insulted for this, the many high 'n top tiers (especially Sheik).

On that note, I would like to request @GimR 's presence here, seeing as how he 1. does have an account here, 2. is one of the most publicly famous G&W mains out there (ex. The TootToot Twitch Emoticon, "The Gimz Always Winz!", being the 1st person that folks usually think of when naming great G&W players...), and 3. has squared off against our fellow doggy @ DunnoBro , whose presence I'd also want to request. I'd mention Guy (aka ThatGuyYouMightKnow) if I was able to find a match vid featuring him against GimR, but alas, I was not able to find any. You're a busy man, so any intel you can share with us will be of much help for and greatly appreciated by both us Doggies and your fellow Flat Men.

It may have been a while since those 3 sets above happened, but hopefully they'll help jog memories of how this MU goes.

My post here does seem personally sloppy in comparison to my earlier posts, but I really want this intel out there to help us get started. Hopefully later today I can refine this post with more details if no one else posts in the meantime. For now, my part-time job calls for me. Perhaps I myself later or someone else can rally the other Flat Men over here in the meantime.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd have used 3113 if it was available. Only in very few MUs do you want 3123 (ones you need to snap asap and no need to mix-up. Or need a hitbox like vs villager or OoS option vs sheik/fox.)

That's my bad though so i can't complain.

 

[NouveauRétro]

As a G&W main who also enjoys playing DH, I say the neutral is very in Duck Hunt's favor, but once G&W forces Duck Hunt off the stage it's open season. Generally Duck Hunt's defensive style is pretty effective on G&W(G&W isn't as fast as he looks lol). However, I personally find Duck Hunt easy to juggle due to his kinda poor landing options, usually leading to an offstage situation. Both characters have the ability to kill very early. G&W has great gimping ability but will have trouble getting the Duck Hunt offstage, while Duck Hunt will be able to have a field day onstage and kill a light character like G&W much more easily than with most of his MUs.

Honestly, even though I play both characters I haven't enough experience pitting them against each other to get much more specific than that. Probably in Duck Hunt's favor, no clue how much.

 

[WispBae]

As a G&W main who also enjoys playing DH, I say the neutral is very in Duck Hunt's favor, but once G&W forces Duck Hunt off the stage it's open season. Generally Duck Hunt's defensive style is pretty effective on G&W(G&W isn't as fast as he looks lol). However, I personally find Duck Hunt easy to juggle due to his kinda poor landing options, usually leading to an offstage situation. Both characters have the ability to kill very early. G&W has great gimping ability but will have trouble getting the Duck Hunt offstage, while Duck Hunt will be able to have a field day onstage and kill a light character like G&W much more easily than with most of his MUs.

Honestly, even though I play both characters I haven't enough experience pitting them against each other to get much more specific than that. Probably in Duck Hunt's favor, no clue how much.

I wouldn't think by too much, really. I consider G-Dubs one of the the guys in the "Well rounded" class (Mario, Pit, Palutena, etc), and I think he can keep up with Doggy with a few tricksies and mix ups. His D-Throw combos, and his edgeguarding is actually really good.

I'd agree with ya on the neutral, I do kind of think G-Dubs' neutral is really lacking and is based on baits, but he gets so much from an opening and has very fast smashes (as in endlag is almost Pikachu levels fast).

I do think Doggy wins the MU, but not by a whole ton. I tend to treat G&W like Ganon in the fact that I should avoid trading at all costs, since I feel like G-dubs really shines when he has pressure going.

@ Splooshi Splashy what do you think? Do you have a score in mind for non customs and customs on?

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Before I begin this post, I would like to do something I wish I did for the Jr MU (not exactly the pic below, but hopefully you'll get what I mean):

The Duo's foreshadowing nightmare is Flat Man's hype fantasy. Jab Locking with either a sourspot FAir or default 2 Judge can help make their Hopefully 9 Judge hit Missile the Duo OTG like what Phoenix Wright's QCB + 2 Attack Buttons Super pictured above can do after scoring the knockdown. No matter how far behind in the match Flat Man may be, so long as he can get close enough to us to land that Gavel.... and with enough luck for a 9 to be attached to that, he'll always be capable of being the Judge who can enforce order in the court.

Now then, I can confirm that stray Cans that explode naturally on their own ARE Bucket-able, but only 1/3 of it will be filled. Efficient Panic is thus highly recommended, due to the sheer difficulty in Bucketing our arsenal. In teams (even the FG variety), if a G&W is your ally and there's enough free space on the stage available, you COULD try to set up this method of Bucket filling, however long it may take, though with Efficient Panic, you'll only need to pull this off once before the Bucket is fully filled. For faster filling speed, we doggies could try using Neutral 2 (an occasion for High-Explosive Shot at last!? You don't say!) with G&W's Down 2, which explodes the fastest out of the 3 Cans (even Zigzag's slower than this).

Gunmen's shots are NOT Bucket-able, so they will destroy any such attempts on the spot, especially if we're nearby to add onto that trap. Clays will most likely be Bucketed from the air when G&W is either short-hopping or falling onto the shoot-ups.

The Spilled Oil from all filled Panic Buckets can pierce through our entire arsenal, though Efficient's payoff is rather low, though its damage is decent. Even at 100+%, it won't really KO us for quite a while, but if the spillage hits us off-stage (after piercing our arsenal), it will probably gimp us.
Panic Overload's spill range is half of FD, and while its power is above Efficient's, it's still lower than Default's, and it's absorption range is the shortest of the 3.

Against a G&W that attempts to hold the line with default Chef on-stage and there's no platforms nearby to use, Gunmen will be key in inching ground for your Can to occupy (B-pressing the Can too much/high will put it in danger of being Flapjack'd back to you), which will then inch ground for your Clay to sneak past the Flapjack Rain. In FG Teams at least (not sure about real teams, due to my lack of personal experience there), your ally will thank you for this, especially if said ally is someone like the many projectile-less sword-wielders or heavyweights, though you may want to omit the Can, so as to avoid exploding your ally.
Jumping over the Chef rain is an option, but if Flat Man expects that, be wary of what & where you come down (with), because his USmash is one of his best Smashes, due to its invincibility, its short cool-down time (start-up's long, though), and its reliably high KO power. Fastfall NAiring onto him when his USmash is being charged is not advisable, due to the previous sentence. Keeping you suspended in the air with DTilt & UAir might also be an option here, as can chasing you to the air with NAir, FAir, and BAir, so be wary of those options as well.
The Pan during any of the Chefs CAN actually hit you, and if it does, you'll be knocked back some distance (not very far), though it's not a KO move by itself, even at around 100%, but if done at the edges, it can knock you off-stage, giving G&W a chance to gimp us.
Powershielding the Flapjacks is another option, and it's a pretty good one at that, provided your Just Defending of them is on point (as a Garou: Mark of the Wolves player myself, I'd rather call Powershielding "Just Defending"), and your arsenal's out there to help you out ((Mega) Gunmen being the most recommended for this).

G&W's Jab can also disjointly push back Cans, and it outranges our Jab too. DTilt, as much of a great poke as it may be against the Can, could lift it upwards with its windboxes has a low vertical range, so if the Can is 45-ish degrees above G&W, it's more likely safer for him to go for FTilt or FAir or Chef or even Up B instead (Up 2 & Up 3 will be able to hit it when it's on the ground, but not Up 1). EDIT 2: After some further testing, DTilt & UAir's windboxes seem to have NO effect on any of the Cans whatsoever.

G&W DOES have some quick methods for KO-ing Mega Gunmen: 2 Up Tilts, 2 NAirs, and 2 UAirs in a row can KO Megas in seconds. As one of the above matches shows, his Jab string is NOT one of them. Of course, if we read this action, we can punish him from either a distance via our Clays and Cans (brace yourself for the Bucket against your Clays if he's expecting it), or upclose with our melee moves if we can catch him recovering from those moves.

Oh yeah, and if G&W has the percent/damage dealt (Tourney Mode only) lead, he can attempt to "timer scam" us with default/Short-Order Chef, DTilt/UAir windboxes, and his overall mobility (which we can compete with, thankfully).

DunnoBro: 3113 against G&W? Huh. How'd I forget to include Up 3-- *recalls all the previous times I've been suggesting Up 2 and usually leaving out both Up 1 and even Up 3* Oh, right. I've been such an Up 2 fanboy that I've not been believing that there would be any MU where we'd want either Up 1 or Up 3, aside from maybe Little Mac-- Speaking of him, maybe later on in this post if no else posts here when I come back, I'll edit it to state what Custom Loadouts we'll likely bring to the Mac MU. I'm quite surprised to see you desire to run 3113 and not 3133, which actually would've been my next guess, had I not been hailing Up 2 for so many MUs. As your matches with GimR have shown, I can see why you'd want Up 1, due to G&W's aerials outranging Up 2. I myself would next pick Up 3 for this MU if Up 2 gets blown up at even a stage with walls, which G&W seems capable of doing with his disjoints and windboxes.

All Chefs aside from XXL (which we doggies likely won't be seeing) aren't too threatening to our bodies knockback-wise from afar (though they do add up % with every flapjack that hits us), but his disjointed power aerials that he'll likely be chasing us off-stage with is why I'd be wanting Up 3 or even Up 2 for warding those off (despite the previous paragraph stating G&W's ability to disrespect Up 2), since Mega Gunmen won't be able to fire off a shot before plummeting off-stage, Clays make us plummet too close to the bottom blast zone for comfort, and Zigzag doesn't explode on contact, weakening its pushback potential if B is not mashed. Oh, and if we recover too high, the wind from his DTilt & UAir can force us to stay that far up & away from the ground, leaving us vulnerable to whatever anti-air mixup he may plan to use against us.

Aside from Megas, G&W's aerials can bulldoze through our entire arsenal prior to us Up B-ing, which can make him quite reminiscent of Bowser Jr with his incredible edgeguarding abilities, minus the Side B Jump Cancels. Come to think of it, he CAN be like Jr in terms of disjointed attacks, except he:
1. Can't fight from as far away as him without customs,
2. Has a much better grab & followups from throws (DThrow to Hopefully 9 at low %, anyone?),
and 3. Can't hang out off-stage for as long as Jr can (but he won't necessarily need to against us), despite his Up 1 & Up 2 providing him a parachute (Up 3 takes that away for more vertical height, essentially making it Melee's Up B, minus the freefall state).

While we CAN lame him out, a Flat Man that makes good use of his Tilts, aerials, Chef, and even the Bucket will pose a threat to our fortress. For defensive doggies, if he breaks in, Paradigm Shift to the offense until we can get him out, and resume our zoning. Of course, if you're anything like me, I'd be rushing him down myself with my arsenal set up before going in for the majority of the match, with Chef & Windbox disruption/prevention being one of my biggest reasons for rushing him down.

Ratios: W/OUT Customs: +1 in favor of DH if defensive styles are used (GimR himself at the G&W boards DID consider G&W to be at a slight disadvantage against DH, and his matches with DunnoBro and maybe Guy would likely be a part of the reason for that assessment.).
0 even if DH goes on the offensive (we'd probably be doing half of G&W's work at getting in on us this way).

W/ Customs: 0 Even for both sides. For every Custom Special we gain, G&W gets one as well. While we'd stick to default Clay, the odds of him filling up even Efficient Panic's Bucket is slim.

As an aside, I'm very happy to have gotten the Custom deck of choice for the ChrisG's UMVC3 Morrigan/Doom/Vergil styled Custom Villager MU right.

EDIT: Custom Loadouts for the Little Mac MU:

Mac himself will probably bring 2111, 2121, 2113, 2123, 2311, 2321, 2313, or 2323. Of these decks, 2311 or 2313 would be quite likely, though 2113 or 2111 would probably be the most likely. I'd personally run 2323 if I were Mac, even though the more preferred/optimal deck would probably be 2313.

Neutral 2 (Flaming Straight Lunge) is his fastest charging Neutral B, making it the most usable of them all. It still has super armor (most of it is at start-up, I think), but unlike default, its charge time is fast enough to make some punishes possible. It can pierce through your entire arsenal if fully charged up, and it can still hit you for full force afterwards if you're closeby. Its KO power is the lowest of the 3, and its range (even when fully charged) is merely 1/3 of FD, but simply having a whole new move to add to his mixups might be worth the price, and at 100+%, it'll at least send you off-stage, setting up for the high-stakes ledge recovery mixups. Of all of Mac's Customs, this will be the most immediately useful one he'll want to put on.

Side 3 is Guard Breaker, the super armored variant that, like Neutral 2, can pierce through our entire arsenal. Its damage output is the highest of the 3, and its KO power either matches or exceeds Side 1's. Said super armor works like his Smashes in that all of our non-grab moves will be pierced by this, though he'll still get hurt by our attacks for full damage. Since he's in the air and we cannot airgrab people like in Melty Blood or USF4 (we're not Dorf or Falcon or Diddy either), we'll have to respect it upclose.
However, the horizontal distance he gets from it in the air can be drastically worse than his Side 1 if he's lost his 2nd jump and he immediately does Side 3 without making sure he's moving towards the stage before using it (this might be pre-patch intel).
Blocking this is NOT recommended, given that the name of his Side 3 IS Guard Breaker. It doesn't break shields. Instead, like Meta Knight's Down 2, it IGNORES shields, so if you see this move coming and you're not confident that you can Just Defend it, pretend you do NOT have a shield and spotdodge/roll/jump/airdodge/otherwise get away like as if it's SF3 Ryu's unblockable Denjin Hadouken (it IS Parry-able, and if this is on top of you when you're getting up with NO meter whatsoever, it'll be your ONLY defense against it), minus its dizzying powers.

Up 2, Tornado Uppercut (Fatal Fury Special's Axel Hawk, where you at-- Oh wait, his move is Tornado Upper. No cut at the end of Upper. Whoops. XD, slightly improves his recovery to the point of making him a bit more comparable to Dr. Mario, which is why I would use Up 2 with Mac. Combine this with a wall-jump, and his odds of returning to the stage will practically double, provided we Doggies simply let him do so, which we certainly won't. Its damage & KO power are incredibly low, and it still doesn't easily snap to the ledge. As a move to guard cancel into, he'd rather use Up 1, which he'll more likely use, for it's more damaging and a higher KO-powered move than this. At best, he'll merely push you away with this, even at 100+%.

Down 3, Dash Counter, increases the distance that his Counter can take him, at the expense of a shorter active window time for actually Countering an attack. He can use this against our arsenal to close the distance easier, and if he successfully Counters something while he's off-stage, the extra distance that Down 3 can send him actually HELPS his recovery more than Down 1 does. At a close enough range, this can make (Rising) Clay & (Down 2) Gunmen risky to throw out if he predicts/reads it and times Down 3 correctly.
Its KO power does not seem to be as good as Slip Counter, but having an extra tool to break through our arsenal with might be worth his while.
However, if he dares fire up Down 3 when he's facing the edge, is close to it, and we trigger it, said move can send him surprisingly far off-stage, allowing us a chance to gimp him.

We'd likely run 31x2 or 32x2 or 11x2 or 12x2 or 31x1 or 32x1 or 11x1 or 12x1. Of these decks, 31x2 or 32x2 or 11x2 or 12x2 would be the most likely. I'd personally run 3232 or 1232.

I am hesitant to recommend Zigzag without platforms. How come? While I'd normally run Zigzag against virtually every other fighter, Mac's a special case, due to how rarely he'll be in the air on his own volition. We'll likely have to pressure him into jumping with our arsenal, directly send him there ourselves, or distract him long enough while he's standing on top of Zigzag for us to B-mash him upwards with it.
On stages with platforms, yes, I'd be recommending Zigzag more eagerly, due to its anti-air sharking abilities that we can abuse against a Mac that's been launched upwards onto a platform. Even there, however, Zigzag doesn't have the ability to spontaneously explode both us and Mac out of upclose pressure like what default Can offers, simply because Zigzag doesn't immediately detonate upon enemy contact after a single B-press, so if none of your arsenal's nearby when Mac's in, you may have to mash out of his pressure with NAir or your 2nd jump or DI-ing away from him or possibly QDA or even Up 3 if there's any platforms above you (not so much airdodge...).

Rising Clay naturally goes low enough to the ground that even Mac's low-profile run will NOT allow him to directly run under it. While its damage output is pitiful, much like in the Sonic MU, it can seriously harass his approaches better than default Clay can. Seeing as how it canNOT be detonated, however, Mac can still break it with something like a Dash Attack, or go over it with any of his Side B moves.
If Mac's running Neutral 2, he can potentially super armor through it and still hit you with Neutral 2 full force if you're close enough.
The neat thing about Rising is that if the Can's already out, you can freely B-press it around without having to shoot-up Clay first, boosting our anti-air abilities. Against Mac's poor air game, we can tempt him to take to the air with Rising and/or QDA, then B-mash Zigzag while he's in the air, and if he airdodges Zigzag, we can close in with our aerials for the bait 'n punish. 'Course, if Rising gets Just Defended (powershielded), it will go the other way and not through him. Said reflection doesn't seem capable of tagging us, thankfully.

While I'm normally not one to recommend this particular move, this MU warrants the use of Up 3, Super Duck Jump, because our vertical recovery & movement speed is strengthened, which can help us out when recovering at the more anti-Mac stages. It may not be the traditional Wakeup DP that our Up 2 is, but depending on the stage that we may be sent to, we can retreat to the upper platforms at a faster rate than the other Up B moves (especially at Battlefield/Miiverse/Dream Land 64), and its windboxes, as weak as they may be, can help us stay safe as we retreat upwards regardless. Speaking of windboxes, we COULD gimp Mac with Up 3 if we read his Dash Counter attempt, for Up 3 doesn't have a hitbox to trigger his Counter, only windboxes to push him away from the stage. It reliably snaps to the ledge quickly if below said ledge, making it hard for Mac to Smash Attack us on our return. Its extra vertical height is a boon for us against Macs that are gutsy enough to chase us off-stage for the DAir spike, which he DOES have (aside from jump-in NAirs into Jab string, this is probably the most noteworthy part of Mac's air game). While the wall-jumps work wonderfully in conjuction with Up 3, considering the stages that we'll want to send him to that lack walls, we likely won't have walls to help us survive DAir spikes with.

"But what about the Wakeup DP that is our Up 2 that you keep recommending throughout all these MU discussions thus far? Wouldn't you want that here too?" That has indeed been my most frequently recommended Up special, yes. However, this is one of those few matches that I'm *gasp* not wanting Up 2 for. Mac going off-stage to edgeguard us is a rarity. Some may have the guts to try for the DAir spike, which our Up 2 CAN help fend off, but unless there's a wall, I wouldn't expect too many Macs to risk it. Up 2's active hitboxes off-stage is not only overdoing it, but presuming we won't have a wall to work with, its overall short recovery distance will hurt us here significantly. Would it be a good move to guard cancel into? Yes. Yet Mac going for literal jump-ins is not too common as well. He'll often be spacing us from the sides on the ground, not so much the air (NAir's his most likely aerial of choice), and Up 2's horizontal start-up range is not the greatest. How often do good Macs blindly come at us with Dash Attack, anyways? That would be a moment to guard cancel into Up 2 yes, but I reckon good Macs would sooner walk towards us than run during neutral, so as to keep access to his quick Tilts, Jab, and non Up Smashes.

Quick Draw Aces can fire fast enough for us to play footsies against Mac, who will likely be close enough to make QDA's short-range a non-issue. Mac's Neutral 2 & Side 3 can armor through this as well, but its cooldown time is shorter than Rising's, so retreating is easier.
Mac's duck CAN lower his profile, but like G&W, he won't be ducking under all our Gunmen (Sombrero for sure catches his duck??).
A neat trick we can do with Rising Clay & Quick Draw Aces in the same deck is to alternate throwing out those moves. Basically, Rising Clay --> QDA --> Rising --> QDA --> repeat is possible. Memories of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo's Old Sagat and UMVC3 Morrigan during Astral Vision flow strongly with this tech, to the point where I want to trollishly shout "TIGER!" or "SOUL FIST!" with every shot. X3
If Mac doesn't make good use of his anti-arsenal tools against us, this MIGHT be a "classic-cheap-looking" technique to try to use.

Personally, to be honest, I'd most certainly switch to Bowser Jr against Mac if Customs are off and I'm certain that I'll be going to FD/Omegas/T&C against him, due to his higher weight, faster disjointed ground buttons (4 frame DTilt especially), and default Mechakoopas wrecking havoc on his ground game more than any of DH's arsenal when Customs are off. Side B Jump Cancels in general can strongly misdirect & harass him, and Short-Hop Side B JC juggles can rack up double-digit percents worth of damage easily. Jr's comfort range in terms of being off-stage (including hang time spent there) exceeds DH's to the point of being overkill (even Air Cannon is a safer edgeguarding move than Super Duck Jump, due to Air Cannon's greater horizontal range). I'm straight up more confident challenging Mac's ground game on the ground myself at FD/Omegas as default Jr than I am with DH if I'm not allowed 3132 or 3232 or 1232 or 1132 as the Duo.

However, before I end this post, I do want to point out that DH's DTilt is a surprisingly good option against Mac's A buttons (not including Smashes), due to its surprisingly far range, surprisingly good priority, its 6 frame speed, DTilt itself lowering your profile (I've ducked under Pikachu's fully charged Side 1 with this after his Neutral 1 KO'd my Gunman, which would've stopped his Side 1, were it still around.), and the ability to crawl back 'n forth before & after throwing it out for spacing/baiting/footsie powers.

 

[WispBae]

Week 10!! Yayyyyy!

Sorry for the slow updates, just had finals last week so lots of testing. Let's just jump into it!

4Kids MexiKnight wants your cookies!

VS

PROS! (For Doggy!)

• Trick Shot slows down MK considerably on the ground.
• Heavy weight allows for easier combos and strings (multiple u-airs, d-throw/f-throw to attacks).
• MK always has to approach, due to lack of projectiles and rush down playstyle.

CONS! (For Doggy!)

• Dimensional cape is a fantastic tool against projectile users and KO's reliably.
• Frame traps and juggles means when he gets in, it's going to hurt a lot.
• Multiple jumps gives him many more options for mix-ups.

I'll post my thoughts on it soon, just opening up the discussion!