SmashGamer112
Smash Apprentice
True, but isn't it a disjoint hitbox? It's not hard to hit because of it's range.
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Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion
- Thread starter WispBae
- Start date
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
It is a disjointed hitbox, yes, but they have the "nudge of mercy" (aka Brawl Wolf Syndrome), where not all the hits will connect correctly, and cause the opponent to live. It happens fairly often, and is just something doggy mains have to get used to.
Hopefully they'll fix it in a patch soon, it's quite annoying. Maybe cause each hit to do set knockback rather than proportional.
NEXT FOR OUR DISCUSSION IS KING DEDEDE!
(Sneak King 2: Melee)
VSPROS (For Doggy)
- D3 is very large, easy hitbox.
- D3's airspeed is a bit on the slow side, making Trick Shot great for anti-air approaches.
- Most projectiles win against tossed gordos.
- Heavy weight and huge size makes smash attacks connect fairly reliably.
- D3's superior ground and air game (outranges doggy is pretty much all aspects).
- Gordos sometimes clank, depending on angle.
- Very low end-lag on many moves (similar to Yoshi).
- Kill throw and follow ups into KO moves.
- Has low% advantage in neutral, due to how heavy he is (not as easy to follow up in clay combos).
- IS A GIANT F***ING PENGUIN.
- Fantastic edgeguard game and tricky recovery.
As opposed to his appearance, it's pretty hard to punish D3 after a move, being as fast to recover as Yoshi or Lil Mac, making his neutral game very strong. Given he also has a projectile, and you have a forced to be reckoned with in neutral.
Doggy's projectiles can beat gordo, but it depends on the angle of how they were hit. Sometimes can will fling back gordos, sometimes they "clank", can being sent at doggy and gordo being sent at D3, and sometimes gordo just ignores can and comes to greet me with a spikey hug. Clay pigeon at best will clank with gordo, while gunmen can hit gordos back reliably, but is hard to time with the bounces.
Doggy's can does work wonders once it is out in the MU, D3 has a pretty hard time getting around it with an average run speed and pretty slow air speed. Against a camping doggy, D3 would either have to take the hits, or knock the can back to get close to a camper, which sucks in either scenario. Having the can close to doggy means it can be knocked back again, or protects doggy from grabs.
Up close and personal, however, D3 rules. Outranges all of doggy's moves except Fair (and just BARELY), and racks up damage fast. D3's down throw links into a plethora of options as well, including KO moves, and D3's godly Nair breaks anything that is not a true combo. Since doggy's recovery is very easy to punish as well, it makes capitalizing a breeze for D3, just by putting hitboxes out by the ledge. It doesn't help Doggy that D3's Fair, Bair, Uair and Dair are all (mostly) reliable KO moves to boot. Even worse, because of Doggy's unreliable access to KO moves, D3 can build up rage very fast and live long enough to use it. Ouchies x_x
Overall, I'd give doggy a +1 in this MU. Camping doggies will have their way with how the game flows, but once D3 gets in, you are going to have a rough time. Keep in mind Doggy's jab comes out frame 4, and use it to escape confrontation if possible. While doggy has the slight advantage (in my opinion), player skill is what really determines the MU. D3 will have to be good at dealing with projectiles (powershield, safe rolls) while Doggy will have to be good at traps (option coverage, proper spacing).
Splooshi Splashy
Smash Journeyman
Before I begin speaking of the MU, I just want to say that I'd TOTALLY be down with waking up with that king. :D Especially if that hamburger was just a plain cod or salmon fish with nothing extra. 
And now, for DH VS Triple D:
Pros (for Doggy)
Can camp out the King for days, especially if you scare him from chucking Gordos.
Can juggle the King quite easily, racking up much damage this way.
Triple D's recovery, while not Villager great, is definitely not as safe as that kid's. Cans + Gunmen + Yourself can wreck havoc on his recovery.
Your attacks are generally faster than his, especially your jab & Up 2, so you DO have answers for when he DOES close in on you.
You can generally outrun him, both on the ground and in the air.
You can wall-jump and the penguin can't, so you gain more recovery (and thus deeper edgeguarding abilities, including that of baiting him into overcommitting on his edgeguarding attempts into the abyss) from walled (Omega) stages than he does, especially if you run Duck Jump Snag. This will also help you survive Dededecide attempts if you're close enough to the wall when he tries it.
Cons (for Doggy)
Triple D's the 3rd heaviest character around, so he'll stick around for quite a long while.
His recovery ability, while not Villager safegreat, is among the best amongst everyone, particularly among the heavies, which will definitely extend his stocks if he evades your edgeguard attempts. Said recovery ability is what he'll use to chase you very far off-stage for very deep edgeguards.
He's among the fastest fastfallers around, which makes his NAir a very potent approach move, so keeping him in the air & KO-ing him upwards may be difficult.
If he gets in, he can rack up damage pretty quickly, especially if he lands an upclose Gordo Toss (w/ the hammer swing) for a quick 20%.
You're lighter than he is, so he doesn't need to rack up too much damage on you before going for his numerous KO moves that definitely can KO you at around 100%. Some can even KO you at around 80-ish%.
His melee range generally outranges yours.
Can Dededecide you if you yourself chase him too far to the edges or off-stage, especially if he's got the stock lead, IF he's running Neutral 1. Subtract this Con if he's running Neutral 2 or 3.
Let us begin with the basic question that usually surrounds any MU featuring the dog: Can the trio lame out the opponent? Answer = Very Yes, he can do so very well here. Triple D is slow overall, he's a big & heavy target, and his only projectile, Gordos, can be easily reflected, whether with Clays (furthest & smallest option), Cans (most reliable, yet slowest answer), Gunmen (his quickest & safest option, especially in teams), or your NAir or FAir, among other moves. One of your top priorities when fighting Triple D is warding off Gordos. If you can consistently pull this off, then you take away one of his best approach options, and he'll have to use his other moves to try to get in on you.
Approach attacks to look for from him when you scare off his Gordos are his:
DTilt (his absolute fastest move at 6 frames that advances him forward, knocking away Cans, KO-ing Gunmen, and either clanking with or even breaking non-shot-up Clays)
FTilt (outranges all your ground A moves except for charged FSmash, and it can break Clays (if started early), KO Gunmen, and push away Cans)
Fastfall NAir (its sheer speed exceeds yours (the fastfall part, that is))
BAir (unlike FAir, it'll autocancel when you land after shorthopping it)
Inhale (Clays and Cans are edible, but gunshots are not, and if you're close by, you CAN punish him for eating your Clays & Cans. Do note that if he's deliberately waiting by the edge and you try to rush him down when he's there (especially if none of your arsenal is out there to cover you), he may be trying to set you up for a Dededecide, which is more effective in non-walled stages, since you won't get to use your wall-jump to help you recover. He may also try to do this if you yourself try to chase him far offstage, especially if your Can or Gunmen are nowhere nearby.)
These, along with powershields, jumps, rolls, and spotdodges will be among his most prominent approach moves.
He'll want to toss Gordos after your Gunman's KO'd, he's past your Can (& Gunman if he's not yet KO'd), and he's too close for you to comfortably Clay him. If he makes it to this point, your NAir, FAir, and angled FTilts can quickly ward off Gordos, especially (shorthop) NAir. You could try his U & D Tilts and Jab, and aside from DTIlt and the later Jab parts, I wouldn't put too much trust in those moves to reliably hit Gordo.
If Triple D DOES get in and you're stuck on the ground, try to be closer to him, so your jab & tilts & grabs will connect, which will generally come out faster than his moves, especially your 4 frame jab against his 6 frame DTilt. If you're running Up 2, it'll be one of your greatest escape moves, especially if guard cancelled into out of shield. Try to shorthop FAir towards him from beyond his FTilt range if you're looking to approach him. He'll want to make like Marth and keep you spaced at a range to take advantage of his hammer's reach, which exceeds nearly all of your melee moves except for FAir, which will be one of your best friends in not only this part of the MU, but generally all parts of it. If you're running Down 2, it can help you out here by giving you a quick ranged attack to help you get in on him. If the Can's nearby at this point and it can be pointed at him, then it can serve as an escape tool, provided it doesn't get knocked away or prematurely exploded.
While my MO is aggressive rushdown, it's just simply better for the dog to fight him like how the general public perceives him as: a campy runaway pooch. It's like how Infiltration picked Hakan against a famous Dhalsim player when Infil himself already has an awesome Akuma in Winter Brawl for SSF4 AE 2012 a few years back (or was that a different tournament in January?): Hakan just straight up has it better against Dhalsim than Akuma, due to how Dhalsim is unable to keep the oil wrestler away from him, especially once Hakan's oiled up, which Dhalsim himself also struggles with stopping, as well as the sheer damage output that Hakan has, once he DOES get in.
Can DH rush down Triple D? Yes, especially after landing one of your projectiles, which if you're close enough can be followed up with aerial juggles for good damage. Does DH get more payoff from laming him out like UMVC3 Morrigan/Doom/Vergil? Yes. Triple D HAS to approach you to do anything. Gordo's generally too slow for him to try to compete with your fortress.
Custom Loadouts
I'd recommend 3322 or 3321 or 3323 or 3121 or 3122 or 3123. Of those decks, I'd personally recommend 3323 or 3322 or 3321, since the King's wide enough for Clay Break to consistently hit at least twice. The smarter option would probably be 3121 or 3122 or 3123, and of those 3 decks, the smartest pick is probably either 3122 or 3123.
Zigzag Can is definitely easier to fully land on him for 20+%, considering how tall & wide he is.
Duck Jump Snag is your "wakeup DP" for getting the King off of you, including his edgeguards. You'll really want to be at walled Omegas and reaching the walls if you run this.
Mega Gunmen would basically be a big stop sign against his Gordos, plus it'll survive a few of his other attacks before getting KO'd, which might make it the best of the 3 to run against him. You could also try Quick Draw Aces to have gunshots as an extra way to ward off Gordos, for the price of shorter ranges.
Triple D's deck will probably be 3312 or 3322. Taste Test is his fastest Neutral B, and it MAY be one of his new tools for breaking through your arsenal wall, except for Gunmen's shots (even Down 2's shots can blow him up for it). He does lose Dededecides if he runs this.
Bouncing Gordo arcs over the majority of your wall, plus it stays at a certain spot on stage, controlling the space around it (until you hit it, that it).
Rising Dedede will help cover his recovery with the upward leap being where the damage & even KO power is, and it CAN make for a quick anti-air KO as well.
Armoured Jet Hammer grants him another tool for breaking through your arsenal by simply walking straight through it. He still takes damage though, and you CAN grab him out of it.
Stages: Take him to walled Omega stages if possible. Him getting in on you without platforms is going to be HARD, and your recovery & edgeguarding abilities will be boosted with wall-jumps. Smashville, T&C, and possibly Battlefield may be worth considering as well.
Don't let him take you to Castle Siege or Halberd or Delfino or Duck Hunt. Lylat Cruise & Kongo Jungle may also be stages to consider avoiding, since Triple D's recovery surpasses yours. If he does take you to Halberd or Delfino somehow, hopefully customs are on and you get to bring Zigzag Can.
W/Out Customs, I'd say it's +1 in favor of Doggy, if the traditional defensive style is used. 0 if you plan to rush him down.
W/ Customs, I'd say it's +2 in favor of Doggy, if the traditional defensive style is used. +1 in favor of Doggy if you plan to rush him down.
Teams:
FG Teams if he's your ally: It's amazing how bad MUs make for good teammates. Triple D gets more freedom in chucking Gordos if the dog's nearby, since his wall of projectiles can re-reflect any Gordos knocked his way, boosting your already excellent (anti-)camping abilities even further. You will be the Assistant (Escargoon?? XD) in charge of escorting the King through the opposing campsite if there is one. Otherwise you're welcome to either cover the King's approaches with your Clays & Gunmen, or try to create a fortress of projectiles with him. When it's KO percent time, try to setup his laggy KO moves with Clays, rapid jab enders, Gunmen (may force shields), grabs, and even Cans if your buddy's safely away from it.
Fighting against Triple D in FG Teams: Setup the wall of projectiles ASAP. Scare him from chucking Gordos to protect yourself and your teammates. This is one of those fights where the idea of the role of Guard Dog becomes real, especially when the opposing team is DoubleDeities D's Dededes. However, I'd advise against reckless Cans, since those explosions will damage your partner, who if at 100+% can lead to getting KO'd if you're blocked off by the opposing teammate(s) when you're trying to rescue your partner.
Real Tournament Teams if he's your ally: ...
Fighting against Triple D in Real Tournament Teams: ...
I'll have to admit, I've not had the privilege to play in Real Tournament Team battles where friendly fire is on, customs are on, and the legal non-Omega stages are on, so I'm not entirely sure how such matches will go, let alone with these 2 involved at once. :<
And now, for DH VS Triple D:
Pros (for Doggy)
Can camp out the King for days, especially if you scare him from chucking Gordos.
Can juggle the King quite easily, racking up much damage this way.
Triple D's recovery, while not Villager great, is definitely not as safe as that kid's. Cans + Gunmen + Yourself can wreck havoc on his recovery.
Your attacks are generally faster than his, especially your jab & Up 2, so you DO have answers for when he DOES close in on you.
You can generally outrun him, both on the ground and in the air.
You can wall-jump and the penguin can't, so you gain more recovery (and thus deeper edgeguarding abilities, including that of baiting him into overcommitting on his edgeguarding attempts into the abyss) from walled (Omega) stages than he does, especially if you run Duck Jump Snag. This will also help you survive Dededecide attempts if you're close enough to the wall when he tries it.
Cons (for Doggy)
Triple D's the 3rd heaviest character around, so he'll stick around for quite a long while.
His recovery ability, while not Villager safegreat, is among the best amongst everyone, particularly among the heavies, which will definitely extend his stocks if he evades your edgeguard attempts. Said recovery ability is what he'll use to chase you very far off-stage for very deep edgeguards.
He's among the fastest fastfallers around, which makes his NAir a very potent approach move, so keeping him in the air & KO-ing him upwards may be difficult.
If he gets in, he can rack up damage pretty quickly, especially if he lands an upclose Gordo Toss (w/ the hammer swing) for a quick 20%.
You're lighter than he is, so he doesn't need to rack up too much damage on you before going for his numerous KO moves that definitely can KO you at around 100%. Some can even KO you at around 80-ish%.
His melee range generally outranges yours.
Can Dededecide you if you yourself chase him too far to the edges or off-stage, especially if he's got the stock lead, IF he's running Neutral 1. Subtract this Con if he's running Neutral 2 or 3.
Let us begin with the basic question that usually surrounds any MU featuring the dog: Can the trio lame out the opponent? Answer = Very Yes, he can do so very well here. Triple D is slow overall, he's a big & heavy target, and his only projectile, Gordos, can be easily reflected, whether with Clays (furthest & smallest option), Cans (most reliable, yet slowest answer), Gunmen (his quickest & safest option, especially in teams), or your NAir or FAir, among other moves. One of your top priorities when fighting Triple D is warding off Gordos. If you can consistently pull this off, then you take away one of his best approach options, and he'll have to use his other moves to try to get in on you.
Approach attacks to look for from him when you scare off his Gordos are his:
DTilt (his absolute fastest move at 6 frames that advances him forward, knocking away Cans, KO-ing Gunmen, and either clanking with or even breaking non-shot-up Clays)
FTilt (outranges all your ground A moves except for charged FSmash, and it can break Clays (if started early), KO Gunmen, and push away Cans)
Fastfall NAir (its sheer speed exceeds yours (the fastfall part, that is))
BAir (unlike FAir, it'll autocancel when you land after shorthopping it)
Inhale (Clays and Cans are edible, but gunshots are not, and if you're close by, you CAN punish him for eating your Clays & Cans. Do note that if he's deliberately waiting by the edge and you try to rush him down when he's there (especially if none of your arsenal is out there to cover you), he may be trying to set you up for a Dededecide, which is more effective in non-walled stages, since you won't get to use your wall-jump to help you recover. He may also try to do this if you yourself try to chase him far offstage, especially if your Can or Gunmen are nowhere nearby.)
These, along with powershields, jumps, rolls, and spotdodges will be among his most prominent approach moves.
He'll want to toss Gordos after your Gunman's KO'd, he's past your Can (& Gunman if he's not yet KO'd), and he's too close for you to comfortably Clay him. If he makes it to this point, your NAir, FAir, and angled FTilts can quickly ward off Gordos, especially (shorthop) NAir. You could try his U & D Tilts and Jab, and aside from DTIlt and the later Jab parts, I wouldn't put too much trust in those moves to reliably hit Gordo.
If Triple D DOES get in and you're stuck on the ground, try to be closer to him, so your jab & tilts & grabs will connect, which will generally come out faster than his moves, especially your 4 frame jab against his 6 frame DTilt. If you're running Up 2, it'll be one of your greatest escape moves, especially if guard cancelled into out of shield. Try to shorthop FAir towards him from beyond his FTilt range if you're looking to approach him. He'll want to make like Marth and keep you spaced at a range to take advantage of his hammer's reach, which exceeds nearly all of your melee moves except for FAir, which will be one of your best friends in not only this part of the MU, but generally all parts of it. If you're running Down 2, it can help you out here by giving you a quick ranged attack to help you get in on him. If the Can's nearby at this point and it can be pointed at him, then it can serve as an escape tool, provided it doesn't get knocked away or prematurely exploded.
While my MO is aggressive rushdown, it's just simply better for the dog to fight him like how the general public perceives him as: a campy runaway pooch. It's like how Infiltration picked Hakan against a famous Dhalsim player when Infil himself already has an awesome Akuma in Winter Brawl for SSF4 AE 2012 a few years back (or was that a different tournament in January?): Hakan just straight up has it better against Dhalsim than Akuma, due to how Dhalsim is unable to keep the oil wrestler away from him, especially once Hakan's oiled up, which Dhalsim himself also struggles with stopping, as well as the sheer damage output that Hakan has, once he DOES get in.
Can DH rush down Triple D? Yes, especially after landing one of your projectiles, which if you're close enough can be followed up with aerial juggles for good damage. Does DH get more payoff from laming him out like UMVC3 Morrigan/Doom/Vergil? Yes. Triple D HAS to approach you to do anything. Gordo's generally too slow for him to try to compete with your fortress.
Custom Loadouts
I'd recommend 3322 or 3321 or 3323 or 3121 or 3122 or 3123. Of those decks, I'd personally recommend 3323 or 3322 or 3321, since the King's wide enough for Clay Break to consistently hit at least twice. The smarter option would probably be 3121 or 3122 or 3123, and of those 3 decks, the smartest pick is probably either 3122 or 3123.
Zigzag Can is definitely easier to fully land on him for 20+%, considering how tall & wide he is.
Duck Jump Snag is your "wakeup DP" for getting the King off of you, including his edgeguards. You'll really want to be at walled Omegas and reaching the walls if you run this.
Mega Gunmen would basically be a big stop sign against his Gordos, plus it'll survive a few of his other attacks before getting KO'd, which might make it the best of the 3 to run against him. You could also try Quick Draw Aces to have gunshots as an extra way to ward off Gordos, for the price of shorter ranges.
Triple D's deck will probably be 3312 or 3322. Taste Test is his fastest Neutral B, and it MAY be one of his new tools for breaking through your arsenal wall, except for Gunmen's shots (even Down 2's shots can blow him up for it). He does lose Dededecides if he runs this.
Bouncing Gordo arcs over the majority of your wall, plus it stays at a certain spot on stage, controlling the space around it (until you hit it, that it).
Rising Dedede will help cover his recovery with the upward leap being where the damage & even KO power is, and it CAN make for a quick anti-air KO as well.
Armoured Jet Hammer grants him another tool for breaking through your arsenal by simply walking straight through it. He still takes damage though, and you CAN grab him out of it.
Stages: Take him to walled Omega stages if possible. Him getting in on you without platforms is going to be HARD, and your recovery & edgeguarding abilities will be boosted with wall-jumps. Smashville, T&C, and possibly Battlefield may be worth considering as well.
Don't let him take you to Castle Siege or Halberd or Delfino or Duck Hunt. Lylat Cruise & Kongo Jungle may also be stages to consider avoiding, since Triple D's recovery surpasses yours. If he does take you to Halberd or Delfino somehow, hopefully customs are on and you get to bring Zigzag Can.
W/Out Customs, I'd say it's +1 in favor of Doggy, if the traditional defensive style is used. 0 if you plan to rush him down.
W/ Customs, I'd say it's +2 in favor of Doggy, if the traditional defensive style is used. +1 in favor of Doggy if you plan to rush him down.
Teams:
FG Teams if he's your ally: It's amazing how bad MUs make for good teammates. Triple D gets more freedom in chucking Gordos if the dog's nearby, since his wall of projectiles can re-reflect any Gordos knocked his way, boosting your already excellent (anti-)camping abilities even further. You will be the Assistant (Escargoon?? XD) in charge of escorting the King through the opposing campsite if there is one. Otherwise you're welcome to either cover the King's approaches with your Clays & Gunmen, or try to create a fortress of projectiles with him. When it's KO percent time, try to setup his laggy KO moves with Clays, rapid jab enders, Gunmen (may force shields), grabs, and even Cans if your buddy's safely away from it.
Fighting against Triple D in FG Teams: Setup the wall of projectiles ASAP. Scare him from chucking Gordos to protect yourself and your teammates. This is one of those fights where the idea of the role of Guard Dog becomes real, especially when the opposing team is Double
Real Tournament Teams if he's your ally: ...
Fighting against Triple D in Real Tournament Teams: ...
I'll have to admit, I've not had the privilege to play in Real Tournament Team battles where friendly fire is on, customs are on, and the legal non-Omega stages are on, so I'm not entirely sure how such matches will go, let alone with these 2 involved at once. :<
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axelalexzander
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2015
- Messages
- 71
DDD main here.
Strategy as Dunt Hunt against DDD is very simple. Camp him hard. Force him to apprach. You should never approach DDD, there's no reason to. Run away and spam everything you've got the whole match. If you get up close, DDD is way ahead so don't let that happen. Yeah, it's a strategy that many people give Duck Hunt mains a hard time about and its not how you always want to play but it's the best strategy here.
DDD's biggest weaknesses are his below average mobility and huge hitbox. You need to exploit that.
Don't try and gimp D3. Challenging DDD offstage is usually a bad idea. He is great in the air, outranges you and dededecide is a big threat if you're down a stock on him.
A good DDD will powershield your spam and approach cautiously. The battle comes down to whether you can keep D3 out or not.
Strategy as Dunt Hunt against DDD is very simple. Camp him hard. Force him to apprach. You should never approach DDD, there's no reason to. Run away and spam everything you've got the whole match. If you get up close, DDD is way ahead so don't let that happen. Yeah, it's a strategy that many people give Duck Hunt mains a hard time about and its not how you always want to play but it's the best strategy here.
DDD's biggest weaknesses are his below average mobility and huge hitbox. You need to exploit that.
Don't try and gimp D3. Challenging DDD offstage is usually a bad idea. He is great in the air, outranges you and dededecide is a big threat if you're down a stock on him.
A good DDD will powershield your spam and approach cautiously. The battle comes down to whether you can keep D3 out or not.
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CELTiiC
Dong 2 Strong
Hey guys! DK boards are currently discussing the DK vs Duck Hunt matchup and would love to get some input from some Duck Hunt mains on how the matchup plays out with or without customs.
http://smashboards.com/threads/monk...atchup-thread-wave-2-falcon-charizard.396228/
http://smashboards.com/threads/monk...atchup-thread-wave-2-falcon-charizard.396228/
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Alrighty! Thank you to all the guests for helping us discuss last week's MU's!
Week 2 is in now! We will be rediscussing Yoshi, cracking down on Diddy, and choosing one more random MU to look at! I'll vote for Donkey Kong, so perhaps we can scratch each other's backs @
CELTiiC
(rub each others' bellies?). If the other doggies would like to chat about DK as well, I'm all for it! If not, cast a vote!
I'll also be updating the scores for MU's soon, so do not fret, m'doggies~
Due to the streamlining to "smoothen" Yoshi for SSB4, Sakurai took drastic measures to make sure he was a force to reckon with... including plastic surgery...
VS
Pros! (For Doggy)
Yoshi has a small bit of trouble getting in, but his eggs are a pretty good counter to doggy's camping. You are going to have to play aggressively, using projectiles like cans more as traps instead of walls, pigeons to punish bad moves, and gunmen to force options. You really can't outcamp Yoshi, nor should you, you will most likely lose.
Yoshi players (based on my experience, playing our regions best Yoshis a few times @Poltergust and @kirbydabest) really seem to rely on momentum. Once you get a decent hit in, flutter is a great option to escape strings, but also leaves Yoshi in an odd position. Generally, you never want to be above a character, and doggy has moves to punish up high (Trick Shot). Yoshi can ground pound, but it can be punished with an aerial upon landing, Dair, but is laggy upon dodging, or float down with a retreating Nair, Fair or Bair.
This MU though, I'd have to say either a -2 or -1 for doggy. I'd wager to say it's closer to even than we think, but the fact that Yoshi has so many KO options that are relatively safe, it's not great for doggy once he's off stage. His mobility also makes dealing with camping doggies fantastic as well. I'd switch, in my opinion. If you are determined to fight Yoshi with doggy, however, Duck Hunt, Battlefield and Halberd will be your friends, the platforms or obstacles in the way make dealing with eggs much easier.
Week 2 is in now! We will be rediscussing Yoshi, cracking down on Diddy, and choosing one more random MU to look at! I'll vote for Donkey Kong, so perhaps we can scratch each other's backs @
CELTiiC
(rub each others' bellies?). If the other doggies would like to chat about DK as well, I'm all for it! If not, cast a vote!I'll also be updating the scores for MU's soon, so do not fret, m'doggies~
Due to the streamlining to "smoothen" Yoshi for SSB4, Sakurai took drastic measures to make sure he was a force to reckon with... including plastic surgery...
VSPros! (For Doggy)
- Many more projectiles than Yoshi.
- Mobility enough to avoid Yoshi's amazing mobility.
- Better access to KO moves.
- Eggs are great for camping and decent at approaching.
- Has very fast moves with low endlag (his F-Smash is almost safe on shield too).
- Flutterjump's armor makes escaping strings easy.
Yoshi has a small bit of trouble getting in, but his eggs are a pretty good counter to doggy's camping. You are going to have to play aggressively, using projectiles like cans more as traps instead of walls, pigeons to punish bad moves, and gunmen to force options. You really can't outcamp Yoshi, nor should you, you will most likely lose.
Yoshi players (based on my experience, playing our regions best Yoshis a few times @Poltergust and @kirbydabest) really seem to rely on momentum. Once you get a decent hit in, flutter is a great option to escape strings, but also leaves Yoshi in an odd position. Generally, you never want to be above a character, and doggy has moves to punish up high (Trick Shot). Yoshi can ground pound, but it can be punished with an aerial upon landing, Dair, but is laggy upon dodging, or float down with a retreating Nair, Fair or Bair.
This MU though, I'd have to say either a -2 or -1 for doggy. I'd wager to say it's closer to even than we think, but the fact that Yoshi has so many KO options that are relatively safe, it's not great for doggy once he's off stage. His mobility also makes dealing with camping doggies fantastic as well. I'd switch, in my opinion. If you are determined to fight Yoshi with doggy, however, Duck Hunt, Battlefield and Halberd will be your friends, the platforms or obstacles in the way make dealing with eggs much easier.
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Fuerzo
Smash Apprentice
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I think this is a very good MU for Yoshi. Duck Hunt really struggles against rushdown-oriented characters, eggs can neutralize DH's camping/zoning, though as you suggested a smarter and more aggressive DH can neutralize some of this, with his small size granting greater mobility. I'll say 62.5/37.5, since I'm not willing to pick between 60 and 65.
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WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Alright! Diddy Kong Next!
"PETA's gonna be pissed about this one..."
VS
PROS! (For Doggy!)
I quite disagree with this statement, but I don't have to prove it to anyone, Diddy still places high regularly and is THE MOST played character (in the current meta, Sheik is giving him a run for his money).
I don't like this MU for doggy, but it isn't impossible. A great Diddy is pretty much no match for doggy due to his kit. Banana can be used in all sorts of ways, including pressure, grabs, getting rid of trick shot and dealing with Gunmen. Clay pigeon can deal with bananas, but Diddy's who know the Doggy MU WILL punish the long endlag of the move. Not to mention how well Diddy can combo into KO moves.
Offstage, however, Diddy performs quite poorly, which is how I approach the MU. Once Monkey Flip is punished (by U-air or a Fair, the disjoints of both moves beat is more of the time), Diddy has very poor options off stage, due to his less than great recovery that needs to be charged. Doggy's recovery is bad, but it is faster than Diddy's, meaning Doggy can go offstage and pressure Diddy very easily.
This offstage performance is really the best Doggy can muster in this MU. You have to camp to beat Diddy, he's honestly too fast and has many options to deal with aggressive doggies. Keeping him offstage is the best plan, but smart diddies will eventually come back, and any Kong with rage is scary.
I'd give doggy a -2 or -3 in this MU, since it really is quite hard to deal with him. It doesn't help Doggy either that Diddy's meta is constantly evolving, due to how much he is played and explored, as opposed to Doggy's, which is severely underdeveloped at the moment. Over time, I think this MU could be -1 or perhap even +-0, but as it stands now, I can't give it to Doggy.
"PETA's gonna be pissed about this one..."
VSPROS! (For Doggy!)
- Very similar mobility between the two of them, Doggy can keep up with him.
- Clay Pigeon beats banana.
- Trick Shot is just as annoying as banana for traps.
- Diddy is very easily gimped during his Up-B.
- Diddy is still a combo machine to any character.
- Nearly true combos and strings that lead to KO.
- Banana is more versatile than Trick Shot.
- Monkey Flip gives diddy extra mobility as well as a command grab.
- Nearly lagless moveset.
- Peanut Popgun adds extra pressure and lets Diddy camp.
I quite disagree with this statement, but I don't have to prove it to anyone, Diddy still places high regularly and is THE MOST played character (in the current meta, Sheik is giving him a run for his money).
I don't like this MU for doggy, but it isn't impossible. A great Diddy is pretty much no match for doggy due to his kit. Banana can be used in all sorts of ways, including pressure, grabs, getting rid of trick shot and dealing with Gunmen. Clay pigeon can deal with bananas, but Diddy's who know the Doggy MU WILL punish the long endlag of the move. Not to mention how well Diddy can combo into KO moves.
Offstage, however, Diddy performs quite poorly, which is how I approach the MU. Once Monkey Flip is punished (by U-air or a Fair, the disjoints of both moves beat is more of the time), Diddy has very poor options off stage, due to his less than great recovery that needs to be charged. Doggy's recovery is bad, but it is faster than Diddy's, meaning Doggy can go offstage and pressure Diddy very easily.
This offstage performance is really the best Doggy can muster in this MU. You have to camp to beat Diddy, he's honestly too fast and has many options to deal with aggressive doggies. Keeping him offstage is the best plan, but smart diddies will eventually come back, and any Kong with rage is scary.
I'd give doggy a -2 or -3 in this MU, since it really is quite hard to deal with him. It doesn't help Doggy either that Diddy's meta is constantly evolving, due to how much he is played and explored, as opposed to Doggy's, which is severely underdeveloped at the moment. Over time, I think this MU could be -1 or perhap even +-0, but as it stands now, I can't give it to Doggy.
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
The last one we will be talking about this week is Ganondorf! I'll leave this discussion open until Tuesday, as I know I am posting this rather late.
"With great power, comes great noses..." -Benjamin Franklin, Before the battle for Hogwarts
VS
PROS! (For Doggy!)
This MU is actually pretty deceptive. While I think it to be easy with spacing, it really depends on who gets the first stock, making a comeback against a great Ganon is ridiculously hard.
Rage is the biggest obstacle for doggy in this MU. We all know Doggy has issues finishing stocks, letting characters reach 150% without a hard read. Ganon's weight makes it even more tricky to deal with as well, since he is gonna be sticking around for a while without a gimp off the side. Ganon can also go for a pretty risk free flame choke off stage, making the situation neutral if he lands it by Ganonciding, or make it back to the ledge. His Up B is also not easy to punish, being a command grab, and getting it at the wrong angle can end up leading to a stage spike from a missed tech. So with those options hard to punish, Ganon will comeback often, giving him a chance to KO us at 50% with a good read. His Dash Attack can break through clay pigeons, making that harder to use, as well as his wizard kick. F-Smash pushes doggy away, has a ton of shield damage and reaches far as well, making it hard to punish. Most of his moveset can KO very easy, and doesn't have too much endlag either, aside from Wizard Kick and the obvious wind-up attacks.
At the same time, if Doggy gets a stock up, the MU suddenly becomes much easier. Doggy never has to approach against Ganon, and can run away from him very easily. He always has to approach, making projectile walls a pain in the rear to deal with. Jumping over projectiles grants free Fairs, and blocking them gives free grabs or set ups for more projectiles.
Go to flat stages to abuse Ganon's movement. Out camp him, and don't risk the chance of an easy KO for him.
I'd give Doggy a +2 against Ganon, but it could easily turn into a -1 if you lose the stock lead, giving Ganon a scary amount of extra options, including access to rage and the Ganoncide win. Even if you are down a stock and still don't have to approach, the staling of the can gives doggy a bad time getting a safe KO against him, bringing him ever close to one good, rage-filled hit. Use your clay pigeons and gunmen to camp, save the can to keep it fresh, and send it out to KO.
"With great power, comes great noses..." -Benjamin Franklin, Before the battle for Hogwarts
VSPROS! (For Doggy!)
- Much more mobile than Ganon.
- Way cuter as well...
- Can outzone fairly easily.
- Poor offstage game easy to capitalize on.
- Neutral game largely in Doggy's favor.
- Weight makes hard to KO.
- Benefits like crazy with Rage (Doggy's crappy KO options make it even worse).
- Certain moves power through projectiles.
- Racks up damage easy.
- Relatively fast moveset despite slow speed.
This MU is actually pretty deceptive. While I think it to be easy with spacing, it really depends on who gets the first stock, making a comeback against a great Ganon is ridiculously hard.
Rage is the biggest obstacle for doggy in this MU. We all know Doggy has issues finishing stocks, letting characters reach 150% without a hard read. Ganon's weight makes it even more tricky to deal with as well, since he is gonna be sticking around for a while without a gimp off the side. Ganon can also go for a pretty risk free flame choke off stage, making the situation neutral if he lands it by Ganonciding, or make it back to the ledge. His Up B is also not easy to punish, being a command grab, and getting it at the wrong angle can end up leading to a stage spike from a missed tech. So with those options hard to punish, Ganon will comeback often, giving him a chance to KO us at 50% with a good read. His Dash Attack can break through clay pigeons, making that harder to use, as well as his wizard kick. F-Smash pushes doggy away, has a ton of shield damage and reaches far as well, making it hard to punish. Most of his moveset can KO very easy, and doesn't have too much endlag either, aside from Wizard Kick and the obvious wind-up attacks.
At the same time, if Doggy gets a stock up, the MU suddenly becomes much easier. Doggy never has to approach against Ganon, and can run away from him very easily. He always has to approach, making projectile walls a pain in the rear to deal with. Jumping over projectiles grants free Fairs, and blocking them gives free grabs or set ups for more projectiles.
Go to flat stages to abuse Ganon's movement. Out camp him, and don't risk the chance of an easy KO for him.
I'd give Doggy a +2 against Ganon, but it could easily turn into a -1 if you lose the stock lead, giving Ganon a scary amount of extra options, including access to rage and the Ganoncide win. Even if you are down a stock and still don't have to approach, the staling of the can gives doggy a bad time getting a safe KO against him, bringing him ever close to one good, rage-filled hit. Use your clay pigeons and gunmen to camp, save the can to keep it fresh, and send it out to KO.
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adom4
Smash Lord
I mostly agree with Wispy, though i want to add on Ganondorf's offstage game, Ganondorf can abuse Duck hunt's horrible recovery as well with his amazing edgeguarding.
if you get choked the only guaranteed follow up on Duck hunt is jab so it's not THAT bad to miss a tech.
i'd say it's +1 in Duck hunt's favor in default for the reasons you mentioned above.
About the customs matchup i have experience from fighting NCJacobT from smashladder (though he used vanilla duck hunt so take my impressions with a grain of salt) & it's MUCH easier for Ganondorf because of wizard dropkick & dark fists.
Wizard dropkick is important here because:
1. It makes recovering much easier
2. It doesn't slow down when it hits Duck hunt's projectiles.
Wizard dropkick can be used pretty much on reaction when used against vanilla can & clay pidgeon because it doesn't slow down on hit like the default kick making it a good approach option.
Dark fists is incredibly dangerous & must be respected, it has super armor on startup & it hits like a truck KOing in the 70% range without rage, also one thing a lot of Ganondorf mains like to do is to intentionally miss the ledge to hit with the uppercut of Dark fists which still hits incredibly hard.
I don't really want to give a ratio for the custom matchup because i haven't faced a custom duck hunt yet.
if you get choked the only guaranteed follow up on Duck hunt is jab so it's not THAT bad to miss a tech.
i'd say it's +1 in Duck hunt's favor in default for the reasons you mentioned above.
About the customs matchup i have experience from fighting NCJacobT from smashladder (though he used vanilla duck hunt so take my impressions with a grain of salt) & it's MUCH easier for Ganondorf because of wizard dropkick & dark fists.
Wizard dropkick is important here because:
1. It makes recovering much easier
2. It doesn't slow down when it hits Duck hunt's projectiles.
Wizard dropkick can be used pretty much on reaction when used against vanilla can & clay pidgeon because it doesn't slow down on hit like the default kick making it a good approach option.
Dark fists is incredibly dangerous & must be respected, it has super armor on startup & it hits like a truck KOing in the 70% range without rage, also one thing a lot of Ganondorf mains like to do is to intentionally miss the ledge to hit with the uppercut of Dark fists which still hits incredibly hard.
I don't really want to give a ratio for the custom matchup because i haven't faced a custom duck hunt yet.
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Shmeckie
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- shmeckie
I'd also like to add that Ganon has a surprising amount of options for stuffing Duck Hunt's range game. I used to find this MU personally impossible until I found this out, then the feel of the matchup went a full 180. Ganon's Dash attack beats the clay pigeon clean like Wispy pointed out, and can easily eliminate doggy's pixelated cowboy friends. Furthermore, Ganon is built to punish openings and capitalize on downtimes, making going for a smash attack very risky against the Dark Lord. If he blocks your smash, you can practically hear Duck Hunt give that Looney Tunes-esque murmur of "mother..."
I agree with Wispy's rundown of the matchup overall. The matchup is probably 55:45 Duck Hunt. Dog & Friends need to get a stock lead, otherwise the whole matchup practically switches to being in Ganon's favor. But if he does get the stock lead, Ganon has to work even harder to get in, which just makes life more comfortable for Duck Hunt.
Also don't go in too hard and get desperate for kills. Ganon likes it when his opponents get offensive, it just means less work for him. Treat him like a Judo master. Keep him at bay with projectiles, space him with duck tilts, and don't do anything you have to commit to if he's in the air above you or there's a f-air fist or Wizard Foot coming straight for your cranium. Also be careful when using the can, as Ganon can not only send it back to you, but send it back with some force.
I agree with Wispy's rundown of the matchup overall. The matchup is probably 55:45 Duck Hunt. Dog & Friends need to get a stock lead, otherwise the whole matchup practically switches to being in Ganon's favor. But if he does get the stock lead, Ganon has to work even harder to get in, which just makes life more comfortable for Duck Hunt.
Also don't go in too hard and get desperate for kills. Ganon likes it when his opponents get offensive, it just means less work for him. Treat him like a Judo master. Keep him at bay with projectiles, space him with duck tilts, and don't do anything you have to commit to if he's in the air above you or there's a f-air fist or Wizard Foot coming straight for your cranium. Also be careful when using the can, as Ganon can not only send it back to you, but send it back with some force.
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Blobface
Smash Lord
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Just a few quick pointers.
I agree with pretty much everything thusofar. Don't overextend your combos/advantage. Wizkick and Fair are disjointed and will beat anything you try if he has time to start them. Stock advantage will play a big part of this matchup. I'd say it's slightly in Duck Hunts favor with even stocks, significantly in Duck Hunts Favor when DER HUND has the stock advantage, and significantly in Ganon's favor when Ganon has the stock advantage. Above all else, be patient. Ganon will take a very long time to kill, and if you get overaggressive, Ganon's smash attacks will kill below 60% easily with 100-150% rage.
One final thing: Spacing is key against Ganon. Nearly ALL of his attacks have disjoint at the tip. You never want to fight him at his ideal range (between 1/3rd and 1/5th FD, roughly). The most significant disjoints are:
I agree with pretty much everything thusofar. Don't overextend your combos/advantage. Wizkick and Fair are disjointed and will beat anything you try if he has time to start them. Stock advantage will play a big part of this matchup. I'd say it's slightly in Duck Hunts favor with even stocks, significantly in Duck Hunts Favor when DER HUND has the stock advantage, and significantly in Ganon's favor when Ganon has the stock advantage. Above all else, be patient. Ganon will take a very long time to kill, and if you get overaggressive, Ganon's smash attacks will kill below 60% easily with 100-150% rage.
One final thing: Spacing is key against Ganon. Nearly ALL of his attacks have disjoint at the tip. You never want to fight him at his ideal range (between 1/3rd and 1/5th FD, roughly). The most significant disjoints are:
- D-tilt: Covers about 1/5th of FD total and has a disjoint the size of DHD's head at the tip
- Dash Attack: Covers about 1/3rd of FD and has a character sized disjoint in front of him
- U-smash, F-air, and B-air: 100% disjointed
- U-air: Roughly a D-tilt sized disjoint at the tip of his boots all through his flip. Don't challenge this move from above.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Hello Doges and Hunters, the Fox boards have started preliminary MU discussion of how to fight the Duck Hunt Duo (Trio?).
vs
Please join us here for discussion of Man's Best Friend vs Swiper from Space.
vsPlease join us here for discussion of Man's Best Friend vs Swiper from Space.
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
- Thank you to all our guests for helping us your respective MU's! Onto the Week 3! We will be re-discussing Sheik, taking on our old friend Mario, and talking about one random MU! If anyone would like to choose our random MU, feel free to suggest it!
Even in yarn form, she's still a threat...
VSPROS! (For Doggy!)
- Many of Doggy's moves out range Sheik's.
- Both have trouble killing, but doggy doesn't have to get in close for Trick Shot KO's.
- More projectiles than Sheik.
- Not as fast or agile.
- No guaranteed combos like Sheik.
- Needles deal with all projectiles.
- Sheik is one of the fastest fighters in the game.
Aggressive doggies can do decently, but you'll really need to rely on camping and really work on your confirmed combos to take advantage of your entire kit against the ninja. Even then, Doggy will still have a rough time if he's not good at mixing up and covering options.
Needles also allow Sheik to camp, though it is not as strong as Doggy's camp game. Still, fully charged needles can deflect Trick Shot, knock down Gunmen and break Clay pigeons. If Sheik likes to not charge the needles, however, it only deflects Trick Shot.
Up close and personal, both characters have trouble finishing stocks without hard reads, however Sheik is still much faster and racks up damage much better than poor poochy. Not to mention Sheik's plethora of options on stage and off stage.
This MU feels like a -1 to me in my opinion. Although Sheik can camp, it is not as strong as Doggy's, meaning patient doggies will eventually force Sheik to come to them. Keeping her out with disjointed aerials and pivot moves will be key. But once Sheik gets in, it's going to hurt, and you better learn how to recover against Sheik. Luckily, Sheik has issues getting KO's as well (though is great at gimping), which is a partial saving grace for Doggy. If Sheik had those reliable KO options, the MU would definitely be a -2 or -3. Since Sheik is so agile, just go to any stage you feel comfortable on, I'd personally to to a flatter stage, probably Smashville or Town and City.
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Alrighty, next for the plumber himself, Mario!
Mario confirmed a furry...
VS
PROS! (For Doggy!)
On Doggy's side you have many projectiles to keep the plumber out. He's not super fast, but is fast enough that you can't mindlessly toss projectiles, you really gotta set up traps effectively with Trick Shot and Gunmen. While things can be reflected back, it's not so huge of an issue as Trick Shot when caped on the ground blows up immediately, clay when hit back only does around 2% damage, and you can jump or shield the reflected shot of gunmen. When I notice Mario's get cape happy, this is my cue to punish with fairs or descending Nair into jab combo. Disjointed moves also help keep the plumber away with pivot tilts, and Fair to cover options such as jumping over gunmen. A small trick for dealing with heavy fireball users is setting up the can as a shield, and letting it take hits, as it stops bouncing after one fireball, while setting up gunmen behind the can. It forces Mario to stop the fireball spam or re-position him to keep tossing them.
However, Mario also has tools for doggy in the MU. Just landing a single grabs gives him combo options and stage control. His moves are very quick as well, meaning he's going to stay on top of you for a while. Caping the correct projectiles makes stage control hard to take back, and if Mario doesn't like his situation, retreating Fireballs are a real hassle. On top of that, Mario's KO options are great with almost all of his moves being able to finish stocks, as well as F.L.U.D.D being great at eating double jumps and options when off stage. While the recovery for Mario is quite fast, it's very predictable at the same time, which is where I think Mario is not too great (not terrible though, he's very good at living for a long time).
I'd give Duck Hunt either a -1 or +-0 in this MU, if anyone has the slight advantage, it would be Mario, due to his excellent KO options. Otherwise, it's really based on player skill I feel. Myself against the best Marios in my area, it's pretty even record for all of us, which also helps me think this is how the MU feels. Both players will have to recognize patterns and abuse them. Doggies, don't just spam projectiles and run away, mix it up. Marios, keep the pressure up with fireballs and combos, and read Doggy's defensive strategies.
Edit: Also, would anyone want to talk about Olimar this week? I've been having issues with them lately...
Mario confirmed a furry...
VSPROS! (For Doggy!)
- Many of Doggy's moves are disjoined against Mario.
- Cape reflecting is hard against projectile walls.
- Very predictable recovery.
- Mario has no "glaring weaknesses" / Has tools for most scenarios.
- Fast KO moves that are fairly safe.
- One of the best combo and pressure games, especially with fireballs.
On Doggy's side you have many projectiles to keep the plumber out. He's not super fast, but is fast enough that you can't mindlessly toss projectiles, you really gotta set up traps effectively with Trick Shot and Gunmen. While things can be reflected back, it's not so huge of an issue as Trick Shot when caped on the ground blows up immediately, clay when hit back only does around 2% damage, and you can jump or shield the reflected shot of gunmen. When I notice Mario's get cape happy, this is my cue to punish with fairs or descending Nair into jab combo. Disjointed moves also help keep the plumber away with pivot tilts, and Fair to cover options such as jumping over gunmen. A small trick for dealing with heavy fireball users is setting up the can as a shield, and letting it take hits, as it stops bouncing after one fireball, while setting up gunmen behind the can. It forces Mario to stop the fireball spam or re-position him to keep tossing them.
However, Mario also has tools for doggy in the MU. Just landing a single grabs gives him combo options and stage control. His moves are very quick as well, meaning he's going to stay on top of you for a while. Caping the correct projectiles makes stage control hard to take back, and if Mario doesn't like his situation, retreating Fireballs are a real hassle. On top of that, Mario's KO options are great with almost all of his moves being able to finish stocks, as well as F.L.U.D.D being great at eating double jumps and options when off stage. While the recovery for Mario is quite fast, it's very predictable at the same time, which is where I think Mario is not too great (not terrible though, he's very good at living for a long time).
I'd give Duck Hunt either a -1 or +-0 in this MU, if anyone has the slight advantage, it would be Mario, due to his excellent KO options. Otherwise, it's really based on player skill I feel. Myself against the best Marios in my area, it's pretty even record for all of us, which also helps me think this is how the MU feels. Both players will have to recognize patterns and abuse them. Doggies, don't just spam projectiles and run away, mix it up. Marios, keep the pressure up with fireballs and combos, and read Doggy's defensive strategies.
Edit: Also, would anyone want to talk about Olimar this week? I've been having issues with them lately...
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A2ZOMG
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I hate this matchup and personally would more readily argue Duck Hunt's favor. Duck Hunt's superior neutral game is not a joke, when he can easily take advantage of Mario's limited forward facing options. He's also way too short for Mario to use rising aerials against usually. The main thing Mario has in this matchup is an easy low percent combo game.
Both characters usually need to catch a landing for the KO in this matchup. But Duck Hunt gets more opportunities because his neutral is better and unlike Mario his Uair is a viable KO move.
Mario fundamentally can't kill if you do the following:
*Ledge resets
*recover low and tech stage spikes
*air dodging FLUDD and Fair on reaction offstage
*know the telegraphed spacing required to kill with Dair
*don't land next to him
*don't let Mario go for Bthrow shenanigans.
All of these are simple things you can do proactively. Duck Hunt at least has viable air KO moves and can opt to deep edgeguard Mario out of his UpB recovery range.
Both characters usually need to catch a landing for the KO in this matchup. But Duck Hunt gets more opportunities because his neutral is better and unlike Mario his Uair is a viable KO move.
Mario fundamentally can't kill if you do the following:
*Ledge resets
*recover low and tech stage spikes
*air dodging FLUDD and Fair on reaction offstage
*know the telegraphed spacing required to kill with Dair
*don't land next to him
*don't let Mario go for Bthrow shenanigans.
All of these are simple things you can do proactively. Duck Hunt at least has viable air KO moves and can opt to deep edgeguard Mario out of his UpB recovery range.
DunnoBro
The Free-est
It's about even until it becomes time to kill imo. Mario's disadvantaged stage with fireballs and high priority/low lag aerials to cover landings makes it hard to actually frame trap him into kills, DHD's biggest issue. The neutral is DHD's favor (as it usually is) but mario has better advantage/disadvantage states in general. Considering rage mode, thus mario's inherently allowed to lose the neutral more, I'd say it's pretty clearly his favor.
Also, duck hunt cannot edgeguard mario really. He can pressure his recovery options with the can, but the angle/strength of fair mixed with his slow fall speed don't allow DHD to really gimp anyone straight up. Nair linger also generally doesn't work on mario due to the priority of his upsecial.
Also, duck hunt cannot edgeguard mario really. He can pressure his recovery options with the can, but the angle/strength of fair mixed with his slow fall speed don't allow DHD to really gimp anyone straight up. Nair linger also generally doesn't work on mario due to the priority of his upsecial.
A2ZOMG
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Duck Hunt can beat Fireballs with his aerials directly and Mario's B-air also loses directly to Duck Hunt's F-air/B-air. RAR B-air or close range N-air have listed KO percents at like 150% without rage which by all means is pretty viable for KOs. If you're directly below Mario, he can't contest U-air which also KOs at reasonable percents depending on position.
KOs I don't think is a problem for Duck Hunt in this matchup unless you insist on landing F-smash reads (which isn't exactly out of the question due to its range). Mario actually kills later with all his aerials in contrast and his Smashes are slower than Duck Hunt's and have no real trap setups outside of reading a ledge getup or hoping you make one of the above mistakes I mentioned. Duck Hunt might have a weak positive state for KOs compared to most characters, but Mario especially has a bad time with KOs when you force him to only go for ledge reads to get them. Both have bad negative states, and this works out in Duck Hunt's favor for getting the KO with his better aerials.
KOs I don't think is a problem for Duck Hunt in this matchup unless you insist on landing F-smash reads (which isn't exactly out of the question due to its range). Mario actually kills later with all his aerials in contrast and his Smashes are slower than Duck Hunt's and have no real trap setups outside of reading a ledge getup or hoping you make one of the above mistakes I mentioned. Duck Hunt might have a weak positive state for KOs compared to most characters, but Mario especially has a bad time with KOs when you force him to only go for ledge reads to get them. Both have bad negative states, and this works out in Duck Hunt's favor for getting the KO with his better aerials.
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DunnoBro
The Free-est
Literally all mario's smashes are faster, either via startup or endlag, and also have better hitboxes and shield push. He also has a kill throw, which is very relevant against a character who has trouble killing so tends to leave mario in rage.
And lmao, dhd always has issues killing. Duck hunt can only kill generally if they make a mistake during the disadvantaged state, mario has a pretty good disadvantage state, especially in this MU.
Fair, yes. Bair? Not really, the position you'll be bairing DHD with mario generally let his superior hitbox win the exchange. Duck hunt's bair is very precise and doesn't linger like mario's. It's also very laggy so don't expect DHD's to throw it out as a combo breaker often.
Fair has a similar issue with how linear the trajectory is, it can't stop a rising bair.
Not really, only fair and it has to be spaced and timed perfectly. It also leaves DHD open for a dash grab depending on the timing mario used it. And DHD doesn't want to be in the air anyway, he wants to stay grounded and set-up.
His projectiles are supposed to be in front of him generally, if he needs to be in front of them himself just to beat fireballs, that's absolutely awful. Duck hunt loses close-range with mario, so his threatened ability to set-up is crippling.
Mario has a much, MUCH easier time killing than DHD. His smashes are safe, strong, and he has both a kill throw and a better frame trap throw. To deny DHD's killing ability is worth than mario's is absurd.
Mario's upsmash alone covers more options than all DHD's smashes combined.
You're pretty much just describing mario's ability to kill as a whole and acting like it's matchup specific. Mario kills in this MU just as well as he does in most others, while duck hunt has both a weaker trap/pressure game, and killing ability. It's mario's favor. I'd say 60-40 at best.
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A2ZOMG
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A few things. DH Fsmash is 12 frames compared to Mario's 15 frame Fsmash, neither of which is really safe on shield except at maximum space. DH has either an 8 or 7 frame USmash compared to the 9 frames on Mario's Usmash. Outside of missing by the ledge, Mario's Usmash is safe on block. Mario has a 5 frame Dsmash but it's awful and both weak and unsafe, while DH's 7 frame Dsmash has okay KO power.
Secondly you don't need to do anything special against Mario's fireball. Mario can't just land directly near Duck Hunt's aerials. Just powershield and anti air if he gets too close. Mario does not exert stage control advantage either way. Once you land a hit, Mario is facing forward meaning he has to retreat and you have full stage control and can beat Mario's landing with many options. Don't over commit against B reverse baits and Mario's negative state sucks.
Mario's Bthrow is one of his only good KO moves, but he will not kill you with it earlier than you can kill him with aerials as long as you don't get grabbed near the edge. Even factoring DH being a moderate lightweight.
Mario gets no kill setups out of Dthrow, so acting like it's a good frame trap setup is laughable. Just go for the ledge and use your jump to do it if you absolutely have to. Mario has massive trouble killing you for playing conservatively given unlike DH, he literally can't kill you in the air. At least you can sorta KO in the 120-150 range with a fresh aerial from Duck Hunt depending on Rage. Mario likely won't kill earlier than 150 if you avoid getting grabbed backwards by the ledge and never let him get Smash reads on stage.
Mario really sucks at getting KOs against someone that knows the matchup given he can't even kill you with air traps, and generic air traps for even Duck Hunt suffice for killing him.
Secondly you don't need to do anything special against Mario's fireball. Mario can't just land directly near Duck Hunt's aerials. Just powershield and anti air if he gets too close. Mario does not exert stage control advantage either way. Once you land a hit, Mario is facing forward meaning he has to retreat and you have full stage control and can beat Mario's landing with many options. Don't over commit against B reverse baits and Mario's negative state sucks.
Mario's Bthrow is one of his only good KO moves, but he will not kill you with it earlier than you can kill him with aerials as long as you don't get grabbed near the edge. Even factoring DH being a moderate lightweight.
Mario gets no kill setups out of Dthrow, so acting like it's a good frame trap setup is laughable. Just go for the ledge and use your jump to do it if you absolutely have to. Mario has massive trouble killing you for playing conservatively given unlike DH, he literally can't kill you in the air. At least you can sorta KO in the 120-150 range with a fresh aerial from Duck Hunt depending on Rage. Mario likely won't kill earlier than 150 if you avoid getting grabbed backwards by the ledge and never let him get Smash reads on stage.
Mario really sucks at getting KOs against someone that knows the matchup given he can't even kill you with air traps, and generic air traps for even Duck Hunt suffice for killing him.
DunnoBro
The Free-est
While perhaps quicker start time, longer animations and endlag, and less shield push make them fundamentally less safe. (and also have worse hitboxes) End of story.
Duck hunt's downsmash is directly inferior to mario's. Slower, less linger, more endlag, and the back hitbox makes it kill consistently less often due to the trajectory it sends people.
If you're trying to say DHD's downsmash is better, you're insane.
Downthrow > Bait air dodge > Fsmash/Upsmash
Downthrow > Bait air dodge by ledge > fair (floaties/midweights generally)
I do it all the time and boss is the one who taught me. I see ally do it all the time too. It's way more consistent than anything DHD has off downthrow, that's for sure.
Time and time again you prove you have literally no idea what you're talking about. I hate to seem rude, but I won't be able to respect myself if I keep debating in your magical world where DHD doesn't have trouble killing. I'll let your summary of the matchup as "not bad if you don't get hit" speak for itself.
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A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Their Smashes both aren't great. Mario has a decent U-smash, but it's not hard to avoid at KO percents. Also Duck Hunt's F-smash outranges Mario's, so it's not a bad whiff punish if Mario is trying to fish, which he WILL have to do in order to score KOs if you never let him get free land traps.
Firstoff, you NEVER need to airdodge after Mario's D-throw at KO percents. He cannot do a single thing to beat jumping back and ledge resetting that will kill you. Let Mario hit you with U-air, N-air, or B-air if you have to. All you need to do to avoid getting killed by Mario is refuse to ever airdodge near the ground.
As for the F-air, you never need to be baited offstage. Wait for it and react to it. Mario hitting you with anything else is not a threat except B-air at very high percents, but at the percents where B-air would KO, Mario's D-throw doesn't usually set up for much anyway. From there just recover low and tech stage spikes. Mario for the most part can't gimp anyone who just follows this simple flowchart.
Thus, it's not a "consistent" KO setup by any means. This is in contrast with almost every character in the game who actually have aerial attacks that kill. I don't care that boss showed you a low level setup that works on bad players. There's many things boss doesn't know about Mario in all Smash games in spite of his great technical skill. In Melee he goes Doc instead of Mario against ICs even though the matchup is 15 points better for Mario (Jab combo can't be punished by CC, F-smash walls the ICs). In Brawl he barely ever uses Jab2 Jab cancels even though they're blatantly superior than Jab1 Jab cancels. I've only seen very limited footage of his Mario in Smash 4, but what little exists barely compares to his familiarity and results with Luigi.
None of the stuff you mentioned for Mario is any more consistent than Duck Hunt going for a generic bait after his throws and killing with his B-air, N-air, or U-air, which are moves that ACTUALLY have some KO power. Duck Hunt's recovery range is also long enough to pressure Mario offstage outside of his Up-B recovery range, so Mario isn't exactly safe offstage against Duck Hunt just because his Up-B has decent priority.
So to recap, Mario's only really seriously viable ways to kill you are to either get a B-throw at high percents (or somehow near the ledge, which is telegraphed) or to hard read your ledge getup (and Duck Hunt actually has good ways to keep Mario guessing since Mario has to respect stuff like ledgehop F-air). Duck Hunt definitely isn't great at KOs, but because he has SOME fast and not hard to land aerials that KO and decent range on his Smashes, he has more viable situations where he can score a KO at reasonable percents. We both agree Duck Hunt wins neutral. This matchup is Duck Hunt's favor.
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WispBae
Tsundere Princess
So I actually won't be posting a third MU this week, as it's already Sunday and the new week starts on Tuesday, I don't want to give another MU so little time for discussion.
However, since we are talking about Mario this week, perhaps we could get a bit of input from a local Mario main I know, @-Sensei-, if he feels like it.
However, since we are talking about Mario this week, perhaps we could get a bit of input from a local Mario main I know, @-Sensei-, if he feels like it.
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
Week 4! Yay!
This week will be an attempt at stopping an army with Olimar, re-discussion of Luma & Rosalina, and one more random MU that any of the doggy mains can choose from! Just leave a message casting your vote! Otherwise, we will be talking about the King of Koopas, Bowser!
"Is this love? That I'm feeling? Is this the one? That I've been looking for?!"
VS/
PROS! (For Doggy)
On paper, you'd think this MU wouldn't be so rough, but Olimar is pretty much counters camping... with camping? Yeah... So aggro doggy is going to be your best bet.
The biggest struggle in this MU is dealing with Pikmin toss and Olimar's superb grab range. Because Oli never has to approach, he can pretty much just keep tossing Pikmin, which is rough considering they break nearly all of Doggy's projectiles. Gunmen is a bit safer to use and can be used to start the offense, but purple pikmin will destroy them with ease. Olimar can't camp as well with purple though, so that would be your time to camp (even though I'd reccomend you don't this time).
While Olimar does play similar to doggy at times, he has much better KO options in the form of safe smashes (at least safer than doggy's) and a kill throw with blue pikmin. His offstage game is almost identical to Doggy's. with both of them having a similar recovery. So both players in the MU will want to abuse the player off stage. I'd say Olimar could come back more safely, however, with pikmin covering options and always having the option of going underneath the stage. Trick Shot harrassment off stage is possible, but remember, if a pikmin touches it, Can blows up immediately, so I'd stick to aerial attacks if they have non-purples, and Trick Shot if they do have purples.
Playing aggro is your best bet, as I've mentioned earlier. Practice your strings, and as you attack Olimar, his pikmin will start to go away, limiting his options. Just don't give him room to breathe, similar to how other MU's work against Doggy.
I'd give this a -1 for Doggy, due to the fact that Olimar has better options for KOs and the priority Pikmin have over Trick Shot and Clay Pigeon. Both characters crumble under constant pressure, however, making them more similar than we think.
Trying my best not to be biased in the MU, however, is hard, due to my personal experience. I was temped to give this a -15646548, only because my region houses one of the best Olimars who has bopped me consistently offline and online (paging @
Myran
), a local amigo plays olimar, and I was bopped at a weekly by a pocket olimar. While Olimar can be hard at times, I more so think people are just better players who happen to be olimars around me, rather than being a hard counter to Doggy.
This week will be an attempt at stopping an army with Olimar, re-discussion of Luma & Rosalina, and one more random MU that any of the doggy mains can choose from! Just leave a message casting your vote! Otherwise, we will be talking about the King of Koopas, Bowser!
"Is this love? That I'm feeling? Is this the one? That I've been looking for?!"
VS/PROS! (For Doggy)
- Gunmen can deal with most pikmin.
- Fair beats most aerial approaches of Olimar.
- Dispatching pikmin and constant pressure severely limits Olimar's options.
- Pikmin toss either clanks or destroys all of Doggy's projectiles (Can is nearly unusable).
- Olimar has better KO options and a kill throw.
- Suberb recovery in most cases.
On paper, you'd think this MU wouldn't be so rough, but Olimar is pretty much counters camping... with camping? Yeah... So aggro doggy is going to be your best bet.
The biggest struggle in this MU is dealing with Pikmin toss and Olimar's superb grab range. Because Oli never has to approach, he can pretty much just keep tossing Pikmin, which is rough considering they break nearly all of Doggy's projectiles. Gunmen is a bit safer to use and can be used to start the offense, but purple pikmin will destroy them with ease. Olimar can't camp as well with purple though, so that would be your time to camp (even though I'd reccomend you don't this time).
While Olimar does play similar to doggy at times, he has much better KO options in the form of safe smashes (at least safer than doggy's) and a kill throw with blue pikmin. His offstage game is almost identical to Doggy's. with both of them having a similar recovery. So both players in the MU will want to abuse the player off stage. I'd say Olimar could come back more safely, however, with pikmin covering options and always having the option of going underneath the stage. Trick Shot harrassment off stage is possible, but remember, if a pikmin touches it, Can blows up immediately, so I'd stick to aerial attacks if they have non-purples, and Trick Shot if they do have purples.
Playing aggro is your best bet, as I've mentioned earlier. Practice your strings, and as you attack Olimar, his pikmin will start to go away, limiting his options. Just don't give him room to breathe, similar to how other MU's work against Doggy.
I'd give this a -1 for Doggy, due to the fact that Olimar has better options for KOs and the priority Pikmin have over Trick Shot and Clay Pigeon. Both characters crumble under constant pressure, however, making them more similar than we think.
Trying my best not to be biased in the MU, however, is hard, due to my personal experience. I was temped to give this a -15646548, only because my region houses one of the best Olimars who has bopped me consistently offline and online (paging @
Myran
), a local amigo plays olimar, and I was bopped at a weekly by a pocket olimar. While Olimar can be hard at times, I more so think people are just better players who happen to be olimars around me, rather than being a hard counter to Doggy.
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I'm gonna agree with you wispy. I'd say Olimar wins this MU, you broke down the big reasons why so I won't really touch on that. A couple things to keep in mind when fighting Olimar is that his fsmash is safe on shield, and his purple usmash has a lot of shield knockback. He can cancel his pluck animation into any action so don't think he's super vulnerable when on the ground with know Pikmin. Clay pidgeon is probably your best projectiles to consistently use since I believe it beats all side-b colors except purple (Don't quote me on that, this MU is a rare one)
As for CQC I'm not to sure how DHD's frame data is, but you wanna go for the fastest move most of the time. Olimar's fastest attack is frame 4 and it's his jab. Alternatively dtilt and utilt both come out on frame 6, and catch a plethora options that the opponent will try. So abuse fast stuff, and pay attention to the lineup are the two biggest tips I could give.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
As for CQC I'm not to sure how DHD's frame data is, but you wanna go for the fastest move most of the time. Olimar's fastest attack is frame 4 and it's his jab. Alternatively dtilt and utilt both come out on frame 6, and catch a plethora options that the opponent will try. So abuse fast stuff, and pay attention to the lineup are the two biggest tips I could give.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
Splooshi Splashy
Smash Journeyman
Before I say anything else, *looking at the above pic* I just want to say that Olimar doesn't have to go home to be a family man towards his Pikmin. X> The mo~e is real~ *Cue the sweet slow 'n tender songs from animes like Kanon, Air, Clannad, True Tears, Angel Beats, etc.* XD;
Anyways, I'd like to vote for Bowser Jr, the Prince ofJuggles Koopas instead, considering that Tweek recently won VGBootCamp's Xanadu Weekly going Jr all day, blowing up many folks there for not knowing the MU. If folks like Tweek show up at CEO this weekend or the next Xanadu Weekly (Customs will be on! Air Cannon, Grounding Dash, Koopa Drift, Meteor Ejection, and Impatient/Big Mechas will likely be present!), or even EVO a month from now, it may be in our collective interest to speak of Jr to quell his rebellious uprising (which might sound strange of me to say, since I main Jr as well....). Plus, between the 2 Koopas, I believe Jr's the more threatening of the 2, due to Mechas & especially Cannonballs piercing our entire arsenal, making the idea of camping him out with just our arsenal alone more difficult to do than against his dad.
I'm also voting for Jr, because I've made claims that our MU against him is slightly in Jr's favor without Customs, which no one has challenged yet, despite me having recommended folks to counterpick doggies with Jr a couple times (I myself am guilty of deliberately doing just that). I am very curious to see if my claim can hold up through the fires of other mains. I'll admit to giving much tech on Jr's side, which might have helped Tweek considerably if he had read my posts regarding Jr's view of that MU, so I would like to make it up to us doggies by giving ourselves tech against him as well.
Possible tournament match footage as a reference for the DH VS Olimar MU (skip to 6 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmSoGyLJk3A
As for DH's frame data, DH's Jab is 4 frames, his DTilt is 6 frames, and both USmash & DSmash are 7 frames. In the air, NAir & UAir are 6 frames, and BAir & FAir are 7 frames. With Customs, we get Frame 1 (!?) Up 2 (Duck Jump Snag), which we can guard cancel into out of shield, along with USmash, Grab (8 frames), and any aerial due to jump cancels.
I also want to add that if any Pikmin get thrown onto the dog, he does have good options for KO-ing them, such as UTilt, DTilt & FTilt if thrown Pikmin fall short of catching the dog, and if in the air, especially NAir, because not only does it come out on frame 6, but it circles around his entire body, and since the latched-on Pikmin are really closeby when NAir starts up, it'll be the powerful sweetspot hit that can possibly OHKO White Pikmin and deal big damage to the other ones as well. As of the 1.0.8. patch, NAir's landing lag has been reduced, making fastfalling to the ground with it safer & quicker, possibly allowing for Jab or DTilt frame traps. With Customs on, DH gets Up 2 to shred them with, even OoS.
I may speak more of this MU at some point...
Anyways, I'd like to vote for Bowser Jr, the Prince of
I'm also voting for Jr, because I've made claims that our MU against him is slightly in Jr's favor without Customs, which no one has challenged yet, despite me having recommended folks to counterpick doggies with Jr a couple times (I myself am guilty of deliberately doing just that). I am very curious to see if my claim can hold up through the fires of other mains. I'll admit to giving much tech on Jr's side, which might have helped Tweek considerably if he had read my posts regarding Jr's view of that MU, so I would like to make it up to us doggies by giving ourselves tech against him as well.
Possible tournament match footage as a reference for the DH VS Olimar MU (skip to 6 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmSoGyLJk3A
As for DH's frame data, DH's Jab is 4 frames, his DTilt is 6 frames, and both USmash & DSmash are 7 frames. In the air, NAir & UAir are 6 frames, and BAir & FAir are 7 frames. With Customs, we get Frame 1 (!?) Up 2 (Duck Jump Snag), which we can guard cancel into out of shield, along with USmash, Grab (8 frames), and any aerial due to jump cancels.
I also want to add that if any Pikmin get thrown onto the dog, he does have good options for KO-ing them, such as UTilt, DTilt & FTilt if thrown Pikmin fall short of catching the dog, and if in the air, especially NAir, because not only does it come out on frame 6, but it circles around his entire body, and since the latched-on Pikmin are really closeby when NAir starts up, it'll be the powerful sweetspot hit that can possibly OHKO White Pikmin and deal big damage to the other ones as well. As of the 1.0.8. patch, NAir's landing lag has been reduced, making fastfalling to the ground with it safer & quicker, possibly allowing for Jab or DTilt frame traps. With Customs on, DH gets Up 2 to shred them with, even OoS.
I may speak more of this MU at some point...
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Olimar's fastest smash is his DSmash which is frame 10.
DunnoBro
The Free-est
IMO Olimar is DHD's worst, or at least most infuriating matchup in customs. He's the ONLY character who completely outcamps DHD, since pikmin ignore gunmen and DHD has a lot of trouble getting pikmin off him. Even sonic, who while I think is an overall worse matchup, is punished for not approaching.
Mega and default gunmen are worthless, if olimar sees you trying to camp behind them, he'll just throw pikmin at you. (most megas cant even shoot him)
Quick gunmen make the MU manageable by having the timings to trade with pikmin tosses, challenge olimar in the mid-range game, and make the most of being super aggressive... They also make up for the fact that olimar's small, floaty body doesn't get comboed by zigzag very well. But since DHD can still NEVER force an approach, he still loses the MU overall, but it's only 40-60 as opposed to 70-30 in default.
In default, not only can you not force an approach, but pikmin stuff can. Even for covering your recovery. Default gunmen are slow enough that olimar can throw a pikmin and shield it, even preemptively when you tried to set-up gunmen. Thus demanding you take time to get it off or take huge damage. Clay pigeon is the only tool that really gives us mileage here.
Unsure about bowser Jr. I money matched Tweek and lost, but I hadn't used default duck hunt in weeks. (Went all yoshi/roy at xanadu for the first time) took lots of damage for doing stuff that was safe with custom DHD(mainly offstage) after game 1 and remembering how to use him, the MU felt pretty decent. Though of course MU inexperience could've been on his side, too.
Mega and default gunmen are worthless, if olimar sees you trying to camp behind them, he'll just throw pikmin at you. (most megas cant even shoot him)
Quick gunmen make the MU manageable by having the timings to trade with pikmin tosses, challenge olimar in the mid-range game, and make the most of being super aggressive... They also make up for the fact that olimar's small, floaty body doesn't get comboed by zigzag very well. But since DHD can still NEVER force an approach, he still loses the MU overall, but it's only 40-60 as opposed to 70-30 in default.
In default, not only can you not force an approach, but pikmin stuff can. Even for covering your recovery. Default gunmen are slow enough that olimar can throw a pikmin and shield it, even preemptively when you tried to set-up gunmen. Thus demanding you take time to get it off or take huge damage. Clay pigeon is the only tool that really gives us mileage here.
Unsure about bowser Jr. I money matched Tweek and lost, but I hadn't used default duck hunt in weeks. (Went all yoshi/roy at xanadu for the first time) took lots of damage for doing stuff that was safe with custom DHD(mainly offstage) after game 1 and remembering how to use him, the MU felt pretty decent. Though of course MU inexperience could've been on his side, too.
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oogamania
Smash Cadet
With all of this being said about the DHD Olimar MU, what secondary should us DHD mains should use to counter Olimar?
DunnoBro
The Free-est
Yoshi beats both olimar and sonic.
I think Mario's a better secondary though, goes even with those chars + others like sheik, and takes less investment to be good with. Both Yoshi and DHD are so weird, I've had lots of trouble switching between them..
I think Mario's a better secondary though, goes even with those chars + others like sheik, and takes less investment to be good with. Both Yoshi and DHD are so weird, I've had lots of trouble switching between them..
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oogamania
Smash Cadet
I wanted to main Yoshi in this game, but after trying to play a grounded, can throwing character like DHD and THEN switching to an air mobile, egg throwing character like Yoshi in a competitive setting, no thanks. Mario is definitely a better secondary, considering the fact that he is a balanced and easier character to pick up.
outfoxd
Smash Ace
Mario is an interesting prospect for me. Plus Ally is around so I can jock his style XD
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
We will talk about Jr then this week, since I was also recently fighting a BJ main this week, which was super fun.
If someone would like to start the Rosalina discussion, I've been at CEO all day and will most likely be busy all weekend. If not, we'll just extend this week later to allow for more analysis, but for now I'm exhausted...
edit: Visual bookmark added!
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Splooshi Splashy
Smash Journeyman
As someone who mains both Jr & DH, this MU is one of my most favorite MUs to watch and participate in, no matter which side of that MU I'm on. I've spoken on this MU from Jr's perspective before in anoher thread on another character board, and I'm also very pleased that we'll be talking about Bowser Jr, the Koopa Prince of Juggles, for the next few days. So today (or tonight), I'll be starting off this MU examination from DH's perspective here, and how he can win this:
Pros (for Doggy)
Our sourspot NAir?/non-shot-up Clay?/Gunmen?/Jab 1 can gimp him post Up 1 or even Up 2 at very early percents off-stage or possibly near the edges, even if Jr mashes R (or whatever the airdodge button may be set to) to try to get his Car back?? (I've not actually confirmed these yet except for Jab 1, sadly. If Jr can actually survive these, then cross out this bullet point)
CAN lame out Jr, IF he doesn't make good use of Mechas (especially if we KO or even steal it) & especially Cannonballs. If Grounding Dash or Koopa Drift aren't being used, then our camping ability improves.
Our NAir & FAir can challenge many of Jr's moves, most notably non-Jump Cancelled Side 1/2, due to their range & disjoint (FAir), lingering time (NAir), and speed (both).
Near the edges, our FSmash can KO him at 100+%.
Our above-average mobility isn't tied to Side B Jump Cancels, making us less predictable.
We can wall-jump, not Jr (his Side 1 bounces off the wall for timer scamming power)
Headshots boost the amount of damage & knockback we can do to him.
Our Clay, when its not broken by Jr's arsenal or disjoints or Side 2/3, can heavily harass him.
We have a faster grab that we can more reliably follow up from than his.
Because of how slow Jr's grab is, he won't want to grab us too often, so we can shield many of his moves without being heavily threatened by his grab.
Cons (for Doggy)
Mechas & Cannonballs rip through DH's entire arsenal, making the idea of using our arsenal alone for laming him out harder. That becomes even harder to do if Grounding Dash or Koopa Drift are in use AND/OR you're at Castle Siege or Duck Hunt's own stage.
Side B Jump Cancels let him do so much: 1. extra aerial on-stage mobility (helps him maintain the high ground better than DH can), 2. boosting the damage he deals on a punish (Side B --> JC --> aerial juggles will generally match or even exceed your Clay --> FAir strings, so if he finds an opening somewhere, expect him to capitalize on it heavily with this), and 3. even KO power as well (Side B --> JC --> Up B --> A (Hammer) KOs reliably at around 95%). Speaking of Side B, Jr can shorthop before using Side B to start it up faster and score punishes that he normally would miss.
More KO power than us (he can KO us sooner than we can KO him if we don't gimp him early)
Heavier than us (almost as heavy as Charizard!), allowing him to hold on to his rage longer than we can (boosts his already better-than-ours KO power further).
Better recovery, even without walls, thanks to Side B Jump Cancels (so long as you don't gimp him out of his Up 1/2, that is)
Carshots weaken the amount of damage & knockback we can do to him.
Trying to catch him out of his Up 1/2 with strong hits (ex. Smashes & sweetspot aerials) will fail to gimp him, due to his ability to press the airdodge button to bring back his Car, giving him another Up B, and thus another chance to run it back.
As slow as Jr's grab is, his Back Throw at the edge KOs us sooner than our Up Throw does to him. Said Back Throw by itself also does more damage than any of our throws do.
Most recent FG 1v1 footage I can find as a reference (featuring a Jr player named Deomage, aka D!, aka Glitch This!, that linked to his YouTube channel at the Jr board's Video thread): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvtFNhimXNk
Most recent Tournament footage I can find as a reference (skip ahead to 16:15. I must warn you, it's a long single round): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_GSLFMzXUE
Another warning regarding these match vids (Legit spoilers! If you don't want to know the outcomes of those matches right here right now, do NOT click the Spoiler):
First things first: Can the trio lame out the Koopa Prince of Juggles? Unless you don't see Mechakoopas (or its in your mouth) & especially Cannonballs and/or Grounding Dashes, no! Both of his projectiles, even tapped/uncharged Cannonballs, will pierce through your entire arsenal. Once either one is out, especially Cannonball, consider your wall broken. Jr's Side 1 can plow through Gunmen, and if you're not B-pressing these, Cans & Clays too. Jr's numerous disjoints can also disrespect your Can, Gunmen, and any Clays you don't shoot up, especially his FAir & NAir. I myself have gotten hit countless times thinking I can stop Cannonballs with Gunmen & Clays when I actually can't, due to reflexive habits against most of the cast. So if Jr's charging up a Cannonball upon your landing, do not stick out any of your projectiles in an attempt to block it off, and instead respect it with our various defensive options (block/perfect-shield, spotdodge, evasion, etc.) You can try to clank with it with NAir or FAir, but be wary of your spacing and whether or not Jr's close by.
With such wall-breaking powers, this makes the idea of defensively laming him out with projectiles alone a bad idea. If you still insist on laming him out, take to the skies against him and aerial him. Your FAir will be key in outranging him. Jr does not have the best of options to deal with our fastfalling NAir outside of simply blocking or spotdodging or getting out of the way if he's not expecting it, especially now (as of the 1.0.8 patch) that its landing lag has been reduced. If his execution is on point, he's in position to anti-air you, and he's expecting it, expect a UTilt (to miss you if you cross him up, since it doesn't cover behind him like his Dad's buffed UTilt), UAir, or more likely, a USmash for the KO if you're at 100+%. Both matches I linked to feature doggies that tried to lame him out, so studying them (especially the tournament match during their 1st stocks) may help out in refining this approach.
Our projectiles are not the best at clearing out Mechas. Rising Clay generally does too little damage to KO them, and Clay Break will likely sail right over it. It walks past default & Zigzag Cans, and all 3 Gunmen, but only default has the power & range to (semi-)reliably OHKO it (Mega's too high up). Hi-Explosive Can can definitely challenge it (and blow it up in 1 go!), but regular Cannonballs straight up destroy it and retain its KO power too. However, our melee moves fare better in clearing out Mechas, most notably our DTilt (it OHKOs it!), which we can position ourselves to time it via our crawl. Do note that our crawl will fail to go under Cannonballs if Jr throws it out while on the ground, as well as his FTilt in general. Picking up his Mecha with moves like upclose Dash Attack is a great way to steal stage control from Jr, and if you're as aggressive as I am, it'll be one of your best ways to get in on him on your terms. While Mecha's in your mouth, you still have access to your entire arsenal to zone/approach him with, and Jr's Cannonball becomes his only usable projectile. Just make sure to throw it away somewhere before it blows up in your face (as HASL Fang found out why, the hard way), since unlike ROB's Gyro or Pac-Man's Fruits, it'll eventually explode in your mouth.
Personally, rushing him down is a great idea, since your arsenal will likely be busted by Mechas and Cannonballs anyways, so being upclose will at least allow your arsenal to be out long enough to cover your approaches. Once we start landing hits on Jr, he, much like us w/out Customs, doesn't have the easiest of ways to elude our juggle strings.
When rushing him down, one of our top priorities should be headshotting him like a sniper whenever possible. He gets damaged & knocked back more on the head than he does on the Car. Unlike everyone else, there is no place on him to deal 1x damage, so you're either dealing more damage than average on his squishy head, or less damage than average on the armored Car. Tippered FAirs will score 11% or 12% per hit if headshotted with them, likely making it one of our key moves to land on him for damage building, since range-wise, FAir is our longest reaching aerial that can challenge Jr's numerous disjoints, and we can land multiple FAirs on him after 1 shot-up Clay (including a sweetspot NAir at low percents). This may just be patch placebo talking, but the super armor area of his Clown Car seems to have grown larger now, allowing his Side 1 to pierce through more moves than it used to....
One of the reasons for maintaining the high ground is denying him panic Up B escapes, which is what your lingering NAir becomes very useful in stuffing. If he's close to the edge when he goes for it, and if he's at high enough percent, even a sourspotted hit will send him far enough off-stage in such a way that even if he mashed the airdodge button to try to bring back the Car, it'll fail?? (Testing will be needed, but if this is true...)
The gutsy doges can physically go off-stage and hover above him with our NAir sticking out in anticipation of his Up 1 or even Up 2 after the initial ejection (This could use some confirmation), making sure it's the lingering sourspot we hit him with. This is what Side B Jump Cancels can prevent from happening to him, so if he's been using Side B JCs throughout the match, then expect it during his recovery to challenge your NAir gimp with aerials. Said gimp attempt is harder punished if he's running Up 2, which grants him super armor, so if you're physically very close to him when it starts up, you'll probably get counter-spiked for your troubles. Side B Jump Cancels also give him the option to recover above the ledge, an ability that most of the cast lacks, so plan for him to return to the stage that way as well. When edgeguarding him, you'll need to involve not only your arsenal, but also yourself, and if there's a wall to wall-jump off of, you can afford to go deeper than usual for the gimp.
Of course, good Jrs will expect you to try to hold the high ground, so you'll be jockeying against him for that position. Expect him to take to the skies very often for this reason, using Side B Jump Cancels to hold the high ground, which he'll likely succeed in doing, because nothing we have, including our customs, can help us gain air time. In the skies, definitely expect FAir, which is one of his best aerials, due to the damage it does, the priority it has (ex. Your NAir will often lose to it), the speed at which it comes out, the area it covers, and it's auto-cancel-ability from a shorthop that leads into many a juggle option (ex. Jab, DTilt, UTilt, USmash). Our FAir can definitely compete with his FAir in terms of speed as well, but not its auto-cancel-ability, despite us being able to land multiple FAirs without needing Clays beforehand. Our DAir and even fastfall NAir will probably lose to his UAir if he's got good timing. While Jr's NAir covers only his sides, it's his 2nd fastest aerial behind his UAir, and its great disjoint range can challenge many of our aerials.
You'll have to brace yourself if you dare challenge his ground A button moves while you're on the ground yourself, especially if none of your arsenal is out there to cover you. Jr's Jab & DTilt are both 4 frames, with DTilt having more range and lingering time than your DTilt. If he reads a roll or spotdodge, he'll lick you up for it. Jr's FTilt is 7 frames, and at 140+%, it will KO you from the edges, so if you make it to that point, this will be one of the big moves to look for.
When it's KO time, Jr has more options to reliably KO you with than you do against him. To quote myself from the Jr MU thread regarding Jr's perspective:
Stuffing Side 1 without Jump Cancels is easy: Shoot up Clays, B-press default Cans onto his head, Quick Draw Ace him, aerial him (NAir & FAir are easiest), and block it (and then guard cancel into grab/USmash/Up 2/jump cancelled aerials afterwards).
Stuffing Side 1 with Jump Cancels is harder, since he can use them for multiple purposes, whether for baiting out certain moves from you (such as Clays), faking you out into committing to a move, or as a way to traverse the skies (likely over your arsenal). Expecting this? Block if you think he'll ram into you first before JC-ing and guard cancel from there. Otherwise go straight to the air with FAir or run under him for the Run-Up Smash.
If you're off-stage trying to recover, this is where Jr takes over, due to the sheer distance he can go off-stage and yet still come back safely, making him come off as ROB or Villager. Jr's recovery is better than yours without customs and walls. With customs, Jr's recovery also becomes safer with super armor on Side 3 & Up 2. Your recovery with customs becomes safer as well with Up 2, so long as you have a wall to wall-jump off of to compensate for its short distance, as well as having the fortune to not get Meteor Ejected out of it by Jr himself. You'll want Can or Gunmen out before you go for your Up 1. UAirs after spending your 2nd jump are good to throw out if Jr's close to you. If you're running Up 2, hope the stage you're at has a wall to wall-jump off of, so you can not only buy yourself some air time to dodge Jr's edgeguards, but also some vertical height to ensure you'll come back. You'll also be able to possibly trick Jr into overcommitting on his edgeguards with walls, depending on how eager he is to overextend himself for the gimp confirm. If he reads the wall-jump, he'll try to intercept with BAir/NAir stage spike, DAir, Down 1, and Up 1/2, so anticipate them with airdodges, preemptive UAirs after spending the 2nd jump, and waiting until the danger is past before reaching for the ledge (and the wall for the wall-jump if you're rather close to the bottom blast zone).
Custom Loadouts
3121 or 3122 would be the decks of choice for this MU.
3122 is what I'd run if I were DH.
Zigzag Can is a wonderful anti-air that, if properly set up & mashed, can rack up 20+% in one go. Jr's pretty wide, so it'll be easier to juggle him with it, especially since he'll likely be in the air very often.
Duck Jump Snag is our frame 1 (!?) "wakeup DP" that can get Jr off of us when he's approaching or juggling us. It'll also help protect us from Jr's strong edgeguarding abilities except for well-timed Meteor Ejections due to its super armor. However, its short recovery range will limit our ability to chase him far off-stage, so we'll likely want walls to wall-jump off of to boost our recovery.
Quick Draw Aces will actually get to its shots fast enough to be usable. It can definitely challenge Side B rushes that aren't Grounding Dash and his other disjointed pokes. While its range is short, Jr will likely be close by often enough for that to not matter too much.
Would Super Duck Jump (Up 3) be worth bringing? Hi-Explosive Can (Neutral 2)? Clay Break (Side 3)? Those I do wonder...
Which moves would I advise against bringing? Rising Clay (Side 2), because Jr can cleanly Side B through it, netting him a free punish. It's also too weak to reliably destroy default Mechas in 1 go (and it'll likely walk up to you for a possibly big punish afterwards), and default Cannonballs crushes it, even when tapped/uncharged.
I'd also advise against bringing Mega Gunmen (Down 3), because Cannonballs and walking Mechakoopas can go right through him as if he's not even there. Impatient Mechas and even thrown default & Big Mechakoopas pierce him completely. If it can survive Jr's onslaught, then MAYBE it might be worth bringing...
Jr would probably bring 1321 or 1311 or 1211 or 1221 or 1322 or 1312 or 1223 or 1213.
As Jr, I'd pick 1321 or 1311 for most stages and 1223 or 1213 for Castle Siege & Delfino. 1322 or 1312 is for Lylat Cruise.
If he reads a Clay, Jr's Side 3 will tear through it if neither Mecha or Cannonball are out to snuff it. If there's anything else out there, Jr's Side 3 will plow through 'em. That is, except for grabs. If we read a Side 3 and we're in position to act on it, that's either a free grab or possibly a bigger punish after dodging it. Too bad our most reliable KO throw, UThrow, will require upwards of 150+% with rage in order for it to reliably KO Jr.
Meteor Ejection will deny you DAir spikes and other upclose edgeguards, because If you're too close to him when he starts Up 2, you may get counter-spiked for your troubles.
According to this thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-jr-players-i-implore-you-to-learn-side-b-2.377021/), Koopa Drift can completely clank with default Clays, which might make it a decent alternative to Side 3 in this MU. Its horizontal distance is phenominal (exceeds Grounding Dash, that's for sure), which can help offset Up 2's low height. The height he gets from JC-ing out of it is the lowest of the Side B moves, so if this move is paired with Up 2, then his vertical recovery worsens to the point of being like Donkey Kong or his Dad.
Big Mecha can survive an entire shot-up Clay and still be picked up & thrown afterwards. Its active time is shorter than default, but longer than Impatient. Its KO power on its own is the best of the 3, and like default, no part of your arsenal will reliably stop it (except Neutral 2?? That's untested, btw).
Stages: As DH, if we're going to an Omega stage, we'll want walled stages like Wii Fit Studio, so we can maximize our recovery distance with wall-jumps (and thus increase our off-stage time to allow for dodging Jr's edgeguard attempts) and deny Jr the ability to go under the stage, hampering his ability to traverse our arsenal (including ourselves) when he's recovering.
However, Jr wants non-walled Omega stages like Smashville, so he can decrease your recovery distance (as in, no wall-jumps) while maintaining his own. In both of the matches I've linked to, Jr got this wish, and Deomage in particular took advantage of the lack of walls by sticking out the Up B to capitalize on the doggie's haste in reaching the ledge, since there's no walls to extend his off-stage time via wall-jumps.
Dodging Mechas become harder without platforms, and Jr can UAir you multiple times for big damage before you get to land if he pops you up somehow.
To an extent, the Omegas can be seen as neutral stages for the both of them, due to how much they gain from being there. However, DH's lack of landing options to mix up with here is painful, since Clay & Can are disrespectable, all Gunmen block nothing (not even thrown Mechas), and FAir & even fastfall NAir can be punished by Jr's disjoints, Mechas, & even Smashes if read. Jr has Side B JCs to give him more flexibility in this regard, and his DAir beats your UAir. Mechas & Cannonballs beat your arsenal, even when Jr's landing from being launched upwards.
Outside of Omegas, stages with platforms would help us escape default Mechas, mix up our landing options, and possibly get in on or lame out Jr easier. Smashville, Battlefield, DL64, and Miiverse certainly supply us with platforms to retreat to (so long as we can dodge Jr's UAir & UTilt sharking attempts).
Jr would only want Lylat Cruise if he's running x3x2. If he really wants to go there, 1322 or 1312 will probably be his decks of choice. Impatient may not be as good at breaking through your arsenal as default is, but it's the most functional of the 3 Mechas at regular Lylat Cruise.
If you catch Jr running Side 1/2 and/or Down 1/3, feel free to counterpick him to LC, where his default & Big Mechas will struggle to stay on the stage and the tilted surfaces will sometimes stuff his Cannonballs. While Air Cannon functions better on Lylat Cruise, he won't want it against your arsenal, which it does barely anything to. Do be wary of Side 3 counteracting the slowdowns that his Side 1 & 2 experience on LC, though.
Castle Siege may disrupt both the dog's arsenal and Jr's default Cannonballs (and default Mechas in the walk-off area), but we're hurt more by the walk-off area than Jr is. There is possible "jank" that Jr is capable of here that's probably on the level of Charizard's Dragon Rush in the walkoffs: Side 2, Koopa Drift. If you see a Jr pick Side 2, you can probably expect either CS or Delfino to be his target locations, because during the walk-offs, if he can land Side 2's Spinouts near the edges, he can KO you somewhat early, but higher percents do not make this any more likely, making it weaker than DR. Unlike DR, it's safer on block, and if he hasn't Spun Out yet, he can Jump Cancel into whatever he wants (said JC height is the lowest of the 3 Side B moves, though).
Jr wants Duck Hunt's own stage, since like Castle Siege, DH's arsenal is hampered more than his own there, but we at least get walls to boost our recovery with.
The low ceilings of T&C, Halberd, Dream Land 64, and Delfino are what our Zigzag Can benefits from, for it can carry folks upwards quite a bit before the explosion finishes them off. However, I believe Jr will generally benefit more from these low ceiling stages, since his heavy weight can help him stick around longer, and his already good KO moves become better with the lessened distance needed to score KOs.
Teams:
FG:
As an ally: Their synergy is phenomenal. You could either create one of the most unusually strong campsites this side of (T)Links & Mega Men (with Jr likely being the bullrushing leader, though DH is definitely capable of it as well), or you can use your arsenal to provide dense cover fire for Jr (and vice versa) as he (or you too) rushes down the opposing team. You definitely can get tipper FAirs & BAirs, sweetspot NAirs, and UAirs off of Mechas, and the last 3 are KO moves at 100+%. Any (Side B JC) juggles he misses are what you can catch with your own aerials.
These two WILL pierce through the most fortified of campsites (possibly even the likes of Double S(p)amuses...!), and if the campers in question haven't brushed up on upclose melee and you (& your Jr buddy) have, you'll clean house. Approach move spammers like those from Charizard, Ike, and Peach will also be ruined by this team's arsenal, due to said moves being halted by our arsenal, leaving them open to our big punishes.
Just try not to chuck Clays in the Cannonball's pathway, because your Clay will break if you do.
The burden of KOs will definitely fall on Jr, and he certainly has the KO power to meet that demand. Your arsenal can help in setting those up, as can your rapid Jab string.
It'll take a team-up like Yoshi & Sonic or Rosalina & Olimar to threaten this duo. At least Jr can stand up to Sonic and Rosalina without customs, as far as I'm aware.
The sheer amount of pressure these two can exert with their arsenal together is loudly pronounced during Sudden Death. Their entire arsenal can KO there, as can all of their aerials (Shorthop NAir is one of both Jr's & DH's absolute best opening moves, due to its speed, lingering time, and even KO power), and Jr's Side B not only KOs with the ram itself, he can JC into any aerial that can also KO at that point. Your FTilt & especially your DTilt are some of your quickest & sneakiest immediate KO options upclose, and you can position yourself with your crawl before throwing DTilt out. This duo can stand up to notable Sudden Death Rulers like Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and even the King of Sudden Death himself, Lucario. Even on their own, Jr & DH are among the best folks to have on your side going into Sudden Death, due to the sheer pressure they can exude with their arsenal as they close in on their opponents.
Against him: Get in. Your cover fire abilities will be hampered by his Mechas & especially Cannonballs, so you'll likely be joining your partner in rushing him down. If you try to lame him out, not only will Jr's arsenal pierce through all of yours, but Jr & his ally will take advantage of this to get in on you. You or your ally can still provide cover fire (yours may not last long if Jr gets his Mechas & Cannonballs going) as you fish for headshots. If Jr's partnered with someone like King Dedede or his Dad or Ike, focus on them instead and let your partner deal with him, especially if your partner's someone like Yoshi, whose default moveset is pretty much built to beat default Jr. Sheik, Jigglypuff, and Villager would also make good allies that can pick on Jr for you. If Jr's ally is someone like Sonic, Rosalina, or Olimar, then you'll want to focus on Jr yourself.
Actual Tournament Team Terms (Friendly fire on, legal stages on, customs on):
As an ally: ...
Against him: ...
I'll admit this: I've yet to experience actual team battles featuring these two, let alone find match vids of these two in teams, aside from this goofy little clip featuring AceStarThe3rd as DH (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZ_Sbi_qxw). It'd be nice to find data for these two in actual team battles.
Closing:
With customs on, I'm really not sure if this MU is in anyone's favor. Like Mario VS Dr. Mario, this could be one of the more fair MUs, which could explain why this is one of my favorite MUs, no matter whose side I'm on. Both of them have what it takes to royally body each other quickly, and yet the both of them can wage a lengthy chess match of attrition. Stage picks and MU familiarity are what will likely tip the scales here.
WithOUT Customs, I'm more inclined to give the nod to Jr if we doggies try to lame him out.
Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: -1 in Jr's favor if you employ the traditional defensive strats and/or you are at a non-walled Omega stage or any of Jr's other good stages.
+0 Even, if you employ the aggressive rushdown strats and/or you are at a walled Omega stage or any of your other good stages.
With Customs On
+0 Even. Add or Subtract 1, depending on whether you're on Jr's good stages (-1 us) or your good stages (+1 us)
Character Counterpick Ideas if you think your DH is not up to the challenge:, , , , , , , (Bring Reflector Void if Customs are on), , , , /, , , (if you're like me, the MU is another one of my favorite MUs in all of Sm4sh, along with the MU)
Pros (for Doggy)
Our sourspot NAir?/non-shot-up Clay?/Gunmen?/Jab 1 can gimp him post Up 1 or even Up 2 at very early percents off-stage or possibly near the edges, even if Jr mashes R (or whatever the airdodge button may be set to) to try to get his Car back?? (I've not actually confirmed these yet except for Jab 1, sadly. If Jr can actually survive these, then cross out this bullet point)
CAN lame out Jr, IF he doesn't make good use of Mechas (especially if we KO or even steal it) & especially Cannonballs. If Grounding Dash or Koopa Drift aren't being used, then our camping ability improves.
Our NAir & FAir can challenge many of Jr's moves, most notably non-Jump Cancelled Side 1/2, due to their range & disjoint (FAir), lingering time (NAir), and speed (both).
Near the edges, our FSmash can KO him at 100+%.
Our above-average mobility isn't tied to Side B Jump Cancels, making us less predictable.
We can wall-jump, not Jr (his Side 1 bounces off the wall for timer scamming power)
Headshots boost the amount of damage & knockback we can do to him.
Our Clay, when its not broken by Jr's arsenal or disjoints or Side 2/3, can heavily harass him.
We have a faster grab that we can more reliably follow up from than his.
Because of how slow Jr's grab is, he won't want to grab us too often, so we can shield many of his moves without being heavily threatened by his grab.
Cons (for Doggy)
Mechas & Cannonballs rip through DH's entire arsenal, making the idea of using our arsenal alone for laming him out harder. That becomes even harder to do if Grounding Dash or Koopa Drift are in use AND/OR you're at Castle Siege or Duck Hunt's own stage.
Side B Jump Cancels let him do so much: 1. extra aerial on-stage mobility (helps him maintain the high ground better than DH can), 2. boosting the damage he deals on a punish (Side B --> JC --> aerial juggles will generally match or even exceed your Clay --> FAir strings, so if he finds an opening somewhere, expect him to capitalize on it heavily with this), and 3. even KO power as well (Side B --> JC --> Up B --> A (Hammer) KOs reliably at around 95%). Speaking of Side B, Jr can shorthop before using Side B to start it up faster and score punishes that he normally would miss.
More KO power than us (he can KO us sooner than we can KO him if we don't gimp him early)
Heavier than us (almost as heavy as Charizard!), allowing him to hold on to his rage longer than we can (boosts his already better-than-ours KO power further).
Better recovery, even without walls, thanks to Side B Jump Cancels (so long as you don't gimp him out of his Up 1/2, that is)
Carshots weaken the amount of damage & knockback we can do to him.
Trying to catch him out of his Up 1/2 with strong hits (ex. Smashes & sweetspot aerials) will fail to gimp him, due to his ability to press the airdodge button to bring back his Car, giving him another Up B, and thus another chance to run it back.
As slow as Jr's grab is, his Back Throw at the edge KOs us sooner than our Up Throw does to him. Said Back Throw by itself also does more damage than any of our throws do.
Most recent FG 1v1 footage I can find as a reference (featuring a Jr player named Deomage, aka D!, aka Glitch This!, that linked to his YouTube channel at the Jr board's Video thread): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvtFNhimXNk
Most recent Tournament footage I can find as a reference (skip ahead to 16:15. I must warn you, it's a long single round): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_GSLFMzXUE
Another warning regarding these match vids (Legit spoilers! If you don't want to know the outcomes of those matches right here right now, do NOT click the Spoiler):
The Jr players win both of them. Decisively.
First things first: Can the trio lame out the Koopa Prince of Juggles? Unless you don't see Mechakoopas (or its in your mouth) & especially Cannonballs and/or Grounding Dashes, no! Both of his projectiles, even tapped/uncharged Cannonballs, will pierce through your entire arsenal. Once either one is out, especially Cannonball, consider your wall broken. Jr's Side 1 can plow through Gunmen, and if you're not B-pressing these, Cans & Clays too. Jr's numerous disjoints can also disrespect your Can, Gunmen, and any Clays you don't shoot up, especially his FAir & NAir. I myself have gotten hit countless times thinking I can stop Cannonballs with Gunmen & Clays when I actually can't, due to reflexive habits against most of the cast. So if Jr's charging up a Cannonball upon your landing, do not stick out any of your projectiles in an attempt to block it off, and instead respect it with our various defensive options (block/perfect-shield, spotdodge, evasion, etc.) You can try to clank with it with NAir or FAir, but be wary of your spacing and whether or not Jr's close by.
With such wall-breaking powers, this makes the idea of defensively laming him out with projectiles alone a bad idea. If you still insist on laming him out, take to the skies against him and aerial him. Your FAir will be key in outranging him. Jr does not have the best of options to deal with our fastfalling NAir outside of simply blocking or spotdodging or getting out of the way if he's not expecting it, especially now (as of the 1.0.8 patch) that its landing lag has been reduced. If his execution is on point, he's in position to anti-air you, and he's expecting it, expect a UTilt (to miss you if you cross him up, since it doesn't cover behind him like his Dad's buffed UTilt), UAir, or more likely, a USmash for the KO if you're at 100+%. Both matches I linked to feature doggies that tried to lame him out, so studying them (especially the tournament match during their 1st stocks) may help out in refining this approach.
Our projectiles are not the best at clearing out Mechas. Rising Clay generally does too little damage to KO them, and Clay Break will likely sail right over it. It walks past default & Zigzag Cans, and all 3 Gunmen, but only default has the power & range to (semi-)reliably OHKO it (Mega's too high up). Hi-Explosive Can can definitely challenge it (and blow it up in 1 go!), but regular Cannonballs straight up destroy it and retain its KO power too. However, our melee moves fare better in clearing out Mechas, most notably our DTilt (it OHKOs it!), which we can position ourselves to time it via our crawl. Do note that our crawl will fail to go under Cannonballs if Jr throws it out while on the ground, as well as his FTilt in general. Picking up his Mecha with moves like upclose Dash Attack is a great way to steal stage control from Jr, and if you're as aggressive as I am, it'll be one of your best ways to get in on him on your terms. While Mecha's in your mouth, you still have access to your entire arsenal to zone/approach him with, and Jr's Cannonball becomes his only usable projectile. Just make sure to throw it away somewhere before it blows up in your face (as HASL Fang found out why, the hard way), since unlike ROB's Gyro or Pac-Man's Fruits, it'll eventually explode in your mouth.
Personally, rushing him down is a great idea, since your arsenal will likely be busted by Mechas and Cannonballs anyways, so being upclose will at least allow your arsenal to be out long enough to cover your approaches. Once we start landing hits on Jr, he, much like us w/out Customs, doesn't have the easiest of ways to elude our juggle strings.
When rushing him down, one of our top priorities should be headshotting him like a sniper whenever possible. He gets damaged & knocked back more on the head than he does on the Car. Unlike everyone else, there is no place on him to deal 1x damage, so you're either dealing more damage than average on his squishy head, or less damage than average on the armored Car. Tippered FAirs will score 11% or 12% per hit if headshotted with them, likely making it one of our key moves to land on him for damage building, since range-wise, FAir is our longest reaching aerial that can challenge Jr's numerous disjoints, and we can land multiple FAirs on him after 1 shot-up Clay (including a sweetspot NAir at low percents). This may just be patch placebo talking, but the super armor area of his Clown Car seems to have grown larger now, allowing his Side 1 to pierce through more moves than it used to....
One of the reasons for maintaining the high ground is denying him panic Up B escapes, which is what your lingering NAir becomes very useful in stuffing. If he's close to the edge when he goes for it, and if he's at high enough percent, even a sourspotted hit will send him far enough off-stage in such a way that even if he mashed the airdodge button to try to bring back the Car, it'll fail?? (Testing will be needed, but if this is true...)
The gutsy doges can physically go off-stage and hover above him with our NAir sticking out in anticipation of his Up 1 or even Up 2 after the initial ejection (This could use some confirmation), making sure it's the lingering sourspot we hit him with. This is what Side B Jump Cancels can prevent from happening to him, so if he's been using Side B JCs throughout the match, then expect it during his recovery to challenge your NAir gimp with aerials. Said gimp attempt is harder punished if he's running Up 2, which grants him super armor, so if you're physically very close to him when it starts up, you'll probably get counter-spiked for your troubles. Side B Jump Cancels also give him the option to recover above the ledge, an ability that most of the cast lacks, so plan for him to return to the stage that way as well. When edgeguarding him, you'll need to involve not only your arsenal, but also yourself, and if there's a wall to wall-jump off of, you can afford to go deeper than usual for the gimp.
Of course, good Jrs will expect you to try to hold the high ground, so you'll be jockeying against him for that position. Expect him to take to the skies very often for this reason, using Side B Jump Cancels to hold the high ground, which he'll likely succeed in doing, because nothing we have, including our customs, can help us gain air time. In the skies, definitely expect FAir, which is one of his best aerials, due to the damage it does, the priority it has (ex. Your NAir will often lose to it), the speed at which it comes out, the area it covers, and it's auto-cancel-ability from a shorthop that leads into many a juggle option (ex. Jab, DTilt, UTilt, USmash). Our FAir can definitely compete with his FAir in terms of speed as well, but not its auto-cancel-ability, despite us being able to land multiple FAirs without needing Clays beforehand. Our DAir and even fastfall NAir will probably lose to his UAir if he's got good timing. While Jr's NAir covers only his sides, it's his 2nd fastest aerial behind his UAir, and its great disjoint range can challenge many of our aerials.
You'll have to brace yourself if you dare challenge his ground A button moves while you're on the ground yourself, especially if none of your arsenal is out there to cover you. Jr's Jab & DTilt are both 4 frames, with DTilt having more range and lingering time than your DTilt. If he reads a roll or spotdodge, he'll lick you up for it. Jr's FTilt is 7 frames, and at 140+%, it will KO you from the edges, so if you make it to that point, this will be one of the big moves to look for.
When it's KO time, Jr has more options to reliably KO you with than you do against him. To quote myself from the Jr MU thread regarding Jr's perspective:
How have I gone this far without gushing over Jr's Side B Jump Cancels? These do so much for him, it's one of his core moves that allow him to be as good as he is. Without that, this MU would easily be at least +1 in DH's favor. Jr can use Side B Jump Cancels for numerous purposes, from maintaining the high ground against you, to maneuvering around your arsenal, to delivering devastating damage-building punishes at virtually any percent (at 0%, Side B --> JC --> DAir --> SH FAir --> Jab string (juggle ends here) or DTilt (juggle ends here) or UTilt x? --> UAir x? is possible, dealing over 30+%), to even setting up a reliable KO method via Side B --> JC (at 75-ish%, put UAir here before the next step) --> Up B --> (A) Hammer. THIS is why I call Jr the Prince of Juggles.
Stuffing Side 1 without Jump Cancels is easy: Shoot up Clays, B-press default Cans onto his head, Quick Draw Ace him, aerial him (NAir & FAir are easiest), and block it (and then guard cancel into grab/USmash/Up 2/jump cancelled aerials afterwards).
Stuffing Side 1 with Jump Cancels is harder, since he can use them for multiple purposes, whether for baiting out certain moves from you (such as Clays), faking you out into committing to a move, or as a way to traverse the skies (likely over your arsenal). Expecting this? Block if you think he'll ram into you first before JC-ing and guard cancel from there. Otherwise go straight to the air with FAir or run under him for the Run-Up Smash.
If you're off-stage trying to recover, this is where Jr takes over, due to the sheer distance he can go off-stage and yet still come back safely, making him come off as ROB or Villager. Jr's recovery is better than yours without customs and walls. With customs, Jr's recovery also becomes safer with super armor on Side 3 & Up 2. Your recovery with customs becomes safer as well with Up 2, so long as you have a wall to wall-jump off of to compensate for its short distance, as well as having the fortune to not get Meteor Ejected out of it by Jr himself. You'll want Can or Gunmen out before you go for your Up 1. UAirs after spending your 2nd jump are good to throw out if Jr's close to you. If you're running Up 2, hope the stage you're at has a wall to wall-jump off of, so you can not only buy yourself some air time to dodge Jr's edgeguards, but also some vertical height to ensure you'll come back. You'll also be able to possibly trick Jr into overcommitting on his edgeguards with walls, depending on how eager he is to overextend himself for the gimp confirm. If he reads the wall-jump, he'll try to intercept with BAir/NAir stage spike, DAir, Down 1, and Up 1/2, so anticipate them with airdodges, preemptive UAirs after spending the 2nd jump, and waiting until the danger is past before reaching for the ledge (and the wall for the wall-jump if you're rather close to the bottom blast zone).
Custom Loadouts
3121 or 3122 would be the decks of choice for this MU.
3122 is what I'd run if I were DH.
Zigzag Can is a wonderful anti-air that, if properly set up & mashed, can rack up 20+% in one go. Jr's pretty wide, so it'll be easier to juggle him with it, especially since he'll likely be in the air very often.
Duck Jump Snag is our frame 1 (!?) "wakeup DP" that can get Jr off of us when he's approaching or juggling us. It'll also help protect us from Jr's strong edgeguarding abilities except for well-timed Meteor Ejections due to its super armor. However, its short recovery range will limit our ability to chase him far off-stage, so we'll likely want walls to wall-jump off of to boost our recovery.
Quick Draw Aces will actually get to its shots fast enough to be usable. It can definitely challenge Side B rushes that aren't Grounding Dash and his other disjointed pokes. While its range is short, Jr will likely be close by often enough for that to not matter too much.
Would Super Duck Jump (Up 3) be worth bringing? Hi-Explosive Can (Neutral 2)? Clay Break (Side 3)? Those I do wonder...
Which moves would I advise against bringing? Rising Clay (Side 2), because Jr can cleanly Side B through it, netting him a free punish. It's also too weak to reliably destroy default Mechas in 1 go (and it'll likely walk up to you for a possibly big punish afterwards), and default Cannonballs crushes it, even when tapped/uncharged.
I'd also advise against bringing Mega Gunmen (Down 3), because Cannonballs and walking Mechakoopas can go right through him as if he's not even there. Impatient Mechas and even thrown default & Big Mechakoopas pierce him completely. If it can survive Jr's onslaught, then MAYBE it might be worth bringing...
Jr would probably bring 1321 or 1311 or 1211 or 1221 or 1322 or 1312 or 1223 or 1213.
As Jr, I'd pick 1321 or 1311 for most stages and 1223 or 1213 for Castle Siege & Delfino. 1322 or 1312 is for Lylat Cruise.
If he reads a Clay, Jr's Side 3 will tear through it if neither Mecha or Cannonball are out to snuff it. If there's anything else out there, Jr's Side 3 will plow through 'em. That is, except for grabs. If we read a Side 3 and we're in position to act on it, that's either a free grab or possibly a bigger punish after dodging it. Too bad our most reliable KO throw, UThrow, will require upwards of 150+% with rage in order for it to reliably KO Jr.
Meteor Ejection will deny you DAir spikes and other upclose edgeguards, because If you're too close to him when he starts Up 2, you may get counter-spiked for your troubles.
According to this thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-jr-players-i-implore-you-to-learn-side-b-2.377021/), Koopa Drift can completely clank with default Clays, which might make it a decent alternative to Side 3 in this MU. Its horizontal distance is phenominal (exceeds Grounding Dash, that's for sure), which can help offset Up 2's low height. The height he gets from JC-ing out of it is the lowest of the Side B moves, so if this move is paired with Up 2, then his vertical recovery worsens to the point of being like Donkey Kong or his Dad.
Big Mecha can survive an entire shot-up Clay and still be picked up & thrown afterwards. Its active time is shorter than default, but longer than Impatient. Its KO power on its own is the best of the 3, and like default, no part of your arsenal will reliably stop it (except Neutral 2?? That's untested, btw).
Stages: As DH, if we're going to an Omega stage, we'll want walled stages like Wii Fit Studio, so we can maximize our recovery distance with wall-jumps (and thus increase our off-stage time to allow for dodging Jr's edgeguard attempts) and deny Jr the ability to go under the stage, hampering his ability to traverse our arsenal (including ourselves) when he's recovering.
However, Jr wants non-walled Omega stages like Smashville, so he can decrease your recovery distance (as in, no wall-jumps) while maintaining his own. In both of the matches I've linked to, Jr got this wish, and Deomage in particular took advantage of the lack of walls by sticking out the Up B to capitalize on the doggie's haste in reaching the ledge, since there's no walls to extend his off-stage time via wall-jumps.
Dodging Mechas become harder without platforms, and Jr can UAir you multiple times for big damage before you get to land if he pops you up somehow.
To an extent, the Omegas can be seen as neutral stages for the both of them, due to how much they gain from being there. However, DH's lack of landing options to mix up with here is painful, since Clay & Can are disrespectable, all Gunmen block nothing (not even thrown Mechas), and FAir & even fastfall NAir can be punished by Jr's disjoints, Mechas, & even Smashes if read. Jr has Side B JCs to give him more flexibility in this regard, and his DAir beats your UAir. Mechas & Cannonballs beat your arsenal, even when Jr's landing from being launched upwards.
Outside of Omegas, stages with platforms would help us escape default Mechas, mix up our landing options, and possibly get in on or lame out Jr easier. Smashville, Battlefield, DL64, and Miiverse certainly supply us with platforms to retreat to (so long as we can dodge Jr's UAir & UTilt sharking attempts).
Jr would only want Lylat Cruise if he's running x3x2. If he really wants to go there, 1322 or 1312 will probably be his decks of choice. Impatient may not be as good at breaking through your arsenal as default is, but it's the most functional of the 3 Mechas at regular Lylat Cruise.
If you catch Jr running Side 1/2 and/or Down 1/3, feel free to counterpick him to LC, where his default & Big Mechas will struggle to stay on the stage and the tilted surfaces will sometimes stuff his Cannonballs. While Air Cannon functions better on Lylat Cruise, he won't want it against your arsenal, which it does barely anything to. Do be wary of Side 3 counteracting the slowdowns that his Side 1 & 2 experience on LC, though.
Castle Siege may disrupt both the dog's arsenal and Jr's default Cannonballs (and default Mechas in the walk-off area), but we're hurt more by the walk-off area than Jr is. There is possible "jank" that Jr is capable of here that's probably on the level of Charizard's Dragon Rush in the walkoffs: Side 2, Koopa Drift. If you see a Jr pick Side 2, you can probably expect either CS or Delfino to be his target locations, because during the walk-offs, if he can land Side 2's Spinouts near the edges, he can KO you somewhat early, but higher percents do not make this any more likely, making it weaker than DR. Unlike DR, it's safer on block, and if he hasn't Spun Out yet, he can Jump Cancel into whatever he wants (said JC height is the lowest of the 3 Side B moves, though).
Jr wants Duck Hunt's own stage, since like Castle Siege, DH's arsenal is hampered more than his own there, but we at least get walls to boost our recovery with.
The low ceilings of T&C, Halberd, Dream Land 64, and Delfino are what our Zigzag Can benefits from, for it can carry folks upwards quite a bit before the explosion finishes them off. However, I believe Jr will generally benefit more from these low ceiling stages, since his heavy weight can help him stick around longer, and his already good KO moves become better with the lessened distance needed to score KOs.
Teams:
FG:
As an ally: Their synergy is phenomenal. You could either create one of the most unusually strong campsites this side of (T)Links & Mega Men (with Jr likely being the bullrushing leader, though DH is definitely capable of it as well), or you can use your arsenal to provide dense cover fire for Jr (and vice versa) as he (or you too) rushes down the opposing team. You definitely can get tipper FAirs & BAirs, sweetspot NAirs, and UAirs off of Mechas, and the last 3 are KO moves at 100+%. Any (Side B JC) juggles he misses are what you can catch with your own aerials.
These two WILL pierce through the most fortified of campsites (possibly even the likes of Double S(p)amuses...!), and if the campers in question haven't brushed up on upclose melee and you (& your Jr buddy) have, you'll clean house. Approach move spammers like those from Charizard, Ike, and Peach will also be ruined by this team's arsenal, due to said moves being halted by our arsenal, leaving them open to our big punishes.
Just try not to chuck Clays in the Cannonball's pathway, because your Clay will break if you do.
The burden of KOs will definitely fall on Jr, and he certainly has the KO power to meet that demand. Your arsenal can help in setting those up, as can your rapid Jab string.
It'll take a team-up like Yoshi & Sonic or Rosalina & Olimar to threaten this duo. At least Jr can stand up to Sonic and Rosalina without customs, as far as I'm aware.
The sheer amount of pressure these two can exert with their arsenal together is loudly pronounced during Sudden Death. Their entire arsenal can KO there, as can all of their aerials (Shorthop NAir is one of both Jr's & DH's absolute best opening moves, due to its speed, lingering time, and even KO power), and Jr's Side B not only KOs with the ram itself, he can JC into any aerial that can also KO at that point. Your FTilt & especially your DTilt are some of your quickest & sneakiest immediate KO options upclose, and you can position yourself with your crawl before throwing DTilt out. This duo can stand up to notable Sudden Death Rulers like Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and even the King of Sudden Death himself, Lucario. Even on their own, Jr & DH are among the best folks to have on your side going into Sudden Death, due to the sheer pressure they can exude with their arsenal as they close in on their opponents.
Against him: Get in. Your cover fire abilities will be hampered by his Mechas & especially Cannonballs, so you'll likely be joining your partner in rushing him down. If you try to lame him out, not only will Jr's arsenal pierce through all of yours, but Jr & his ally will take advantage of this to get in on you. You or your ally can still provide cover fire (yours may not last long if Jr gets his Mechas & Cannonballs going) as you fish for headshots. If Jr's partnered with someone like King Dedede or his Dad or Ike, focus on them instead and let your partner deal with him, especially if your partner's someone like Yoshi, whose default moveset is pretty much built to beat default Jr. Sheik, Jigglypuff, and Villager would also make good allies that can pick on Jr for you. If Jr's ally is someone like Sonic, Rosalina, or Olimar, then you'll want to focus on Jr yourself.
Actual Tournament Team Terms (Friendly fire on, legal stages on, customs on):
As an ally: ...
Against him: ...
I'll admit this: I've yet to experience actual team battles featuring these two, let alone find match vids of these two in teams, aside from this goofy little clip featuring AceStarThe3rd as DH (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZ_Sbi_qxw). It'd be nice to find data for these two in actual team battles.
Closing:
With customs on, I'm really not sure if this MU is in anyone's favor. Like Mario VS Dr. Mario, this could be one of the more fair MUs, which could explain why this is one of my favorite MUs, no matter whose side I'm on. Both of them have what it takes to royally body each other quickly, and yet the both of them can wage a lengthy chess match of attrition. Stage picks and MU familiarity are what will likely tip the scales here.
WithOUT Customs, I'm more inclined to give the nod to Jr if we doggies try to lame him out.
Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: -1 in Jr's favor if you employ the traditional defensive strats and/or you are at a non-walled Omega stage or any of Jr's other good stages.
+0 Even, if you employ the aggressive rushdown strats and/or you are at a walled Omega stage or any of your other good stages.
With Customs On
+0 Even. Add or Subtract 1, depending on whether you're on Jr's good stages (-1 us) or your good stages (+1 us)
Character Counterpick Ideas if you think your DH is not up to the challenge:
, , , , , , , (Bring Reflector Void if Customs are on), , , , /, , , (if you're like me, the MU is another one of my favorite MUs in all of Sm4sh, along with the MU)
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Mario & Sonic Guy
Old rivalries live on!
To all Duck Hunts out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Duck Hunt. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Duck Hunt match-up? Then head to the following thread link...
http://smashboards.com/threads/408234/
In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/
http://smashboards.com/threads/408234/
In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/
WispBae
Tsundere Princess
@
Splooshi Splashy
Thanks for starting the discussion!
The FG vid was not the best example, as the duck hunt was pretty bad, to be honest. The other tourney vid was better, and although I think the Duck Hunt could have played better, it showed a couple of quirks of the MU, as you mentioned.
Aggro doggy with complimenting projectiles is definitely the way to go. While the fact that he can up B to escape strings and retaliate is scary, it's very punishable when whiffed. Use time when the situation is neutral to set up cans as traps in this MU, rather than an active offense. For example, keeping cans on platforms to eliminate options and have a "kill throw" (up throw into trick shot at high percent.
I would never mess with Jr offstage, as he's a beast in the air with the kart mix-ups and being able to attack after his side B and up B, but if you can limit his options off stage with trick shot harrassment, sour spot nairs will definitely gimp his recovery. Just save your double jump or jump before doing the Nair, as it puts you fairly deep off stage.
While Jr does have better KO options, they are a bit tricky to set-up (or so it seems, from my experience). Mecha Koopas into moves, hard reads with Up and Side Smash, and harder side B reads seem to be the most of the KO's. BJ's nair is perfect for gimping and harassment as well, but gimping isn't really a thing you can do to doggy easy, so it's really just free harassment offstage.
Mecha koopas give BJ a great neutral game as well, but keep in mind they have a ton of ending lag when summoned, like our clay pigeons, so spammy Jr's can get free fairs to the face or tomahawk options of your choice.
The MU really feels like a 0 or -1 in my opinion for Doggy. While Jr does have better KO options, his lack of of speed makes it pretty easy to out juke and stay away from him. It's really more on who is the better player I feel. Against a great Jr, it'll be negative one due to how heavy he is and how he can limit options as well as we can with proper mecha koopa usage. I wish I could give a more solid answer on the scoring, but I need to explore this MU a bit more. I have played against a great Jr in my area, who could probably give us more insight (paging @
The_ToolBag
)
Splooshi Splashy
Thanks for starting the discussion!The FG vid was not the best example, as the duck hunt was pretty bad, to be honest. The other tourney vid was better, and although I think the Duck Hunt could have played better, it showed a couple of quirks of the MU, as you mentioned.
Aggro doggy with complimenting projectiles is definitely the way to go. While the fact that he can up B to escape strings and retaliate is scary, it's very punishable when whiffed. Use time when the situation is neutral to set up cans as traps in this MU, rather than an active offense. For example, keeping cans on platforms to eliminate options and have a "kill throw" (up throw into trick shot at high percent.
I would never mess with Jr offstage, as he's a beast in the air with the kart mix-ups and being able to attack after his side B and up B, but if you can limit his options off stage with trick shot harrassment, sour spot nairs will definitely gimp his recovery. Just save your double jump or jump before doing the Nair, as it puts you fairly deep off stage.
While Jr does have better KO options, they are a bit tricky to set-up (or so it seems, from my experience). Mecha Koopas into moves, hard reads with Up and Side Smash, and harder side B reads seem to be the most of the KO's. BJ's nair is perfect for gimping and harassment as well, but gimping isn't really a thing you can do to doggy easy, so it's really just free harassment offstage.
Mecha koopas give BJ a great neutral game as well, but keep in mind they have a ton of ending lag when summoned, like our clay pigeons, so spammy Jr's can get free fairs to the face or tomahawk options of your choice.
The MU really feels like a 0 or -1 in my opinion for Doggy. While Jr does have better KO options, his lack of of speed makes it pretty easy to out juke and stay away from him. It's really more on who is the better player I feel. Against a great Jr, it'll be negative one due to how heavy he is and how he can limit options as well as we can with proper mecha koopa usage. I wish I could give a more solid answer on the scoring, but I need to explore this MU a bit more. I have played against a great Jr in my area, who could probably give us more insight (paging @
The_ToolBag
)
Splooshi Splashy
Smash Journeyman
I'll admit to the FG example being terrible on DH's part. I must've been too awestruck by the Jr player to have noticed how bad the DH player in that match was. Then again, I did say that it was the most recent example I've found. I didn't necessarily say that it was a good example, or that it was the most recent one I found on YT with search tags "Jr VS Duck Hunt" sorted by Upload date as of the making of that post, and I actually wish I had mentioned those details earlier in my last post. Whoops. >_< Well, if anything, it can serve as an example of what NOT to do as DH, as well as what TO do as Jr (minus the Side B Jump Cancel juggles, which I'm certain D!'s later vids would feature, due to my comment there). While FSmash CAN be used to KO Mechas, it's not recommended, due to its endlag & inconsistency, and if Jr's close by, he gets a free punish.
Using Up B on-stage as an escape option... I cannot help but think that Meteor Ejection would be better for this than Up 1, due to its super armor (even though said super armor starts on frame 9, which is actually worse than Charizard's frame 5 Rock Smash). Grounding Dash can also be used as an escape option, not only for its super armor (which starts on frame 1, like Zard's Rock Hurl), but if he shorthops before using it, it'll scoot him quite far back before actually rocketing forward, provided there IS land for him to scoot backwards with.
It's rather surreal how slow Jr can be, despite having shorthop Side B Jump Cancels. Jr actually moves faster in the air than he does on the ground (except for running, that's still faster than jumping) when (SH) Side B JCs aren't factored in. Speaking of Side B JCs, what we can expect to NOT happen after JC-ing the Side B are Jab, Tilts, Smashes, and Grabs, due to Jr ALWAYS being in the air after cancelling his Side B, hence the predictability. Clays will be the most useful part of our arsenal, as can Quick Draw Aces when customs are on, when we're trying to at least space him out of our face, for Jr will need time to bring out a Mecha or especially a Cannonball (even untapped) to challenge it, and since we'll generally shoot up our Clays seemingly immediately, it'll make his aerials & tilts not as good of ideas as they would be if you were to throw out Clays closer to him. 'Course, if he's running Side 3, this becomes riskier, due to its frame 1 super armor soaking up the Clay and still being able to JC out of it into an aerial.
Using Up B on-stage as an escape option... I cannot help but think that Meteor Ejection would be better for this than Up 1, due to its super armor (even though said super armor starts on frame 9, which is actually worse than Charizard's frame 5 Rock Smash). Grounding Dash can also be used as an escape option, not only for its super armor (which starts on frame 1, like Zard's Rock Hurl), but if he shorthops before using it, it'll scoot him quite far back before actually rocketing forward, provided there IS land for him to scoot backwards with.
It's rather surreal how slow Jr can be, despite having shorthop Side B Jump Cancels. Jr actually moves faster in the air than he does on the ground (except for running, that's still faster than jumping) when (SH) Side B JCs aren't factored in. Speaking of Side B JCs, what we can expect to NOT happen after JC-ing the Side B are Jab, Tilts, Smashes, and Grabs, due to Jr ALWAYS being in the air after cancelling his Side B, hence the predictability. Clays will be the most useful part of our arsenal, as can Quick Draw Aces when customs are on, when we're trying to at least space him out of our face, for Jr will need time to bring out a Mecha or especially a Cannonball (even untapped) to challenge it, and since we'll generally shoot up our Clays seemingly immediately, it'll make his aerials & tilts not as good of ideas as they would be if you were to throw out Clays closer to him. 'Course, if he's running Side 3, this becomes riskier, due to its frame 1 super armor soaking up the Clay and still being able to JC out of it into an aerial.
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The_ToolBag
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2014
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- NNID
- mr.kasabii7
@
The MU really feels like a 0 or -1 in my opinion for Doggy. While Jr does have better KO options, his lack of of speed makes it pretty easy to out juke and stay away from him. It's really more on who is the better player I feel. Against a great Jr, it'll be negative one due to how heavy he is and how he can limit options as well as we can with proper mecha koopa usage. I wish I could give a more solid answer on the scoring, but I need to explore this MU a bit more. I have played against a great Jr in my area, who could probably give us more insight (paging @
I would say it is in BJ's favor, but I mostly say that because BJ has the option to outcamp campy characters until he finds an opening, once BJ finds an opening, it is all about applying pressure, which is hard to get out of for DHD. It's just like Melee, creating a neutral game that looks for that one opening to start a constant array of pressure. Characters that can also apply a lot of pressure, (like Olimar) BJ has an issue with. Honestly, the best way to beat BJ as DHD would be to look for an opening with the Clay and then apply your own pressure. Down throw to uAir is always a good option too, and your nAir is also deadly.