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Meta Sic 'Em! Duck Hunt MU Discussion

WispBae

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Whoever screws up first will likely die
Generally applies to all games of competitive nature =P haha, but I agree with what you mean.

After seeing all these comments and notes, I think I'd give Doggy a +1 against Lucario. The fact that Doggy's neutral is better than Lucario's and is safer is good avantage to have, but the lack of KO power in tandem with Rage + Aura mechanics makes for a bad time when things get rough. Keeping the space between the two of you and not taking unnecessary risks seems the way to go, treating it similar to the Ganon and DK MU, like Splooshi Splashy Splooshi Splashy mentioned.
 

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 24, 2015
Messages
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You said you didn't know which moves
I told you which moves
I said that in response to smbmaster99MFGG, who already told us the moves because he thought I was suggesting all of Lucario's moves extended based on aura. I explained myself, saying I didn't know which ones, just I knew that 'some of them do'.

Also, while I wouldn't call myself experienced in the MU, Aura Sphere has hitboxes all over it, so if your Gunman has his hurt boxes all over his visual, the two should collide before anything behind the Gunman can get hit regardless of aura
Again, should
It's more akin to Samus' charge shot or Charizard's side-B. If anyone doubts that position, go into smash (not training as there's no rage mechanics), grab a DHD and lucario, set handicap to 300% (or 150% if you prefer), fully charge, then have DHD deploy gunman, fire charge - it should hit DHD. If it doesn't bypass gunman (because aura size and damage expands) I'd be quite surprised given that's how I've been KO'd previously.

You'll also see it (150% upwards, might be lower) go pass frisbee. I have absolutely no motive to lie to other duck hunt players, because what would I gain? Remember, different gunmen have different HP, so it might vary.
 
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Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 24, 2015
Messages
164
Right off the bat, saying that Lucario is dangerous but not because the player might be skilled is a huge scrub mentality. Lucario's Aura is part of the match up, and without it, he's massively underpowered. People who complain about how "good" Lucario gets in the late stock never talk about how poorly equipped he is in the early stock. If Lucario wins against you, it's because he was better skilled than you. There's a reason he's not #1 or even top 10.
No-one complains when we argue that Ike gets early KOs or DHD is underpowered in launchability. Is that scrub mentality too? Saying Lucario is dangerous because he has a passive ability regardless of skill is still a valid point. Would you be daring to say Little Mac's KO punch isn't still dangerous simply because the player using it is inexperienced?

The 'more skilled than you' is a cliche argument that is assumed despite the fact you didn't see the match-up. There's a reason why people consider DHD underpowered and it isn't because of skill.

(I might add I'm a games programmer, and I can certainly tell you Nintendo have their share of bugs and balances issues. It's to be expected. That's why Diddy was nerfed. Do you blame people who lost to his intrinsic advantages pre-nerf as being unskilled? I wouldn't.)

Remember, I did document and replicate the slide glitch, as well as the 0% Little Mac KO move. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Force Palm's flame won't kill until very late in the stock. Force Palm grab is quite strong and will kill early (if Lucario is at 150%, it'll kill Duck Hunt at maybe 50%) but it's a 1 frame window (and it's late, on frame 9) and requires Lucario to be in grab range, which Duck Hunt doesn't ever have to be in if he doesn't want to.
The fact it kills DHD at 'maybe 50%' is what makes aura dangerous. To put this in context, a final smash often requires players be about 45-50% before it KOs them. And Lucario only has to bait one badly timed smash from DHD or get in on some nice end lag, which down-air, u-smash, d-smash, f-smash and frisbee all nicely provide.

And sure, I suppose you could look at Aura Sphere and Force Palm as neutralizing your projectiles, but it's much fairer to say the opposite, since Force Palm takes so long and Aura Sphere isn't worth anything without a bit of charge. If Lucario hits the Can with a projectile but doesn't knock it off stage, you can hide behind it and it'll absorb absolutely any other projectile, no matter how strong, without moving.
Except Lucario's main game isn't projectiles. So it's better to say it can neutralise ours because ours is more projectile centric. Hiding behind can is null because anyone with a basic grasp just dash attacks the can (or spikes it at a distance with some other move). Sure you could counter-dash but then can juggles and due to DHD being one of the frame-slowest characters and he gets an explosion. You could roll dodge but it's broken at the moment from what I can see (people can hit DHD... mid roll dodge) and thus prone to being caught. Jump and can says 'hi'.

Like I keep saying, Force Palm isn't as scary as you think because its frame data is atrocious, and Aura Sphere is stopped by anything, except the disc, when Lucario is at a high enough percentage that you shouldn't be throwing discs anyway. You've only talked about how Aura buffs his specials without talking about literally every other aspect of Lucario's moveset: Lucario's neutral game (approaches, tilts, jabs, aerials, everything but grab) is so bad no matter what percent he's at, it's hugely incorrect to say that "the deck" is stacked against Duck Hunt.
You haven't explained how his neutral game is 'so bad'. Slow, maybe (but I did say he was slow)? But as DHD with terrible end lag on a chunk of moves, it's not something that is entirely disadvantageous. But it does matter what percent he's at because it dictates how likely those moves are to KO.

As for aura sphere, you're assuming on-stage where it's a level playing field. When you're airborne, an aura sphere that can KO at low percents becomes pretty scary and your only options are:

1) Ledge grab for invincibility
2) Hope air dodge works (it tends not to - dodge issues)
3) Crazy tech that landing with the fastest shielding known to mankind
4) Hope your projectile doesn't get beat out by aura sphere, and if it's a can, hope it doesn't kill you on reflect

That's assuming above stage. If you're off-stage he can just toss it regardless then try to spike, back air the recovery. Force palm does decent coverage for roll on/get up (which given we have our nearly non-functional roll dodge, becomes problematic).

Duck Hunt's fsmash will start killing at about 100%, so if you're antsy for the kill, you can start looking for it twenty percent earlier than that. But moreover, you should never stop piling on the damage just because you're afraid of Aura. Lucario gets enormously powerful as early as 70% and you wouldn't start fishing for the kill then; why should you later? Lucario's fsmash will kill you whenever it feels like it, but it's slower than Ganondorf's. If you get hit by a kill move, it's your own fault.
Getting killed by anything in any game is whoever's fault in playing, it goes without saying. That doesn't mean it's the only issue to contend with. But that's the thing, my statement here isn't intrinsically wrong: you just disagree with my tactical approach in withholding damage from Lucario, which is a difference in tactics, not a particular flaw.

Why hold discussions in match-ups if you guys only want to agree to the same approaches? I'd much rather withhold damage than give Lucario a free 2.5 times damage, because if he kills me the first time, he retains the damage multiplier for the second life I have. Which as you said yourself, kills at about 50% done right.

It's good to know that, based on this information, you, who played Lucario once against Duck Hunt, think you know more about the match up than me, who mains both and plays against other Lucario mains every other day. And that is what you are inferring, since you wrote your response challenging my own points while telling me that I didn't challenge yours.
It's good to know that you prefer, rather than explaining what points are flawed, to try to take some sort of 'appeal to authority' by berating what is your incorrect perception of my playing Lucario which you assume (incorrectly) occurred once. Tell me, how did I learn to play duck hunt duo against other players whilst somehow only ever playing Lucario once?

You'd rather trying to turn me into some 'noob' by falsefully claiming I've only done one match (I gave an example match: I didn't say it was my only match) and how long have I been here for? I'm no idle contributor, either - low percent can KOs, 0% KO moves, slide glitche demos (and tests in newer versions), upthrow kill percents. But apparently I've just played Lucario 'once'.

Is this not true for every match up, though? "Hit them with a hard move when you have an opening and they're in kill percent."
No. Because in most other matches you want to stack up as much damage as possible. Lucario actually demands a withdrawal of that approach.

I've already explained why trying to punish their landing isn't likely to work against a decent Lucario. If they recover low, a Can will make it harder for them to make it back, but remember that he can curve ExtremeSpeed, so much that he can almost do a full circle. Granted, that's really dangerous and it's not likely that Lucario will risk something that extreme, but unless your control over the Can is absolute, it's not that hard to either dodge it or for you to miss.
Even if not likely, you still have to try. Players aren't likely to beat people like ZeRo, but as is the human condition, we still must try.

Putting yourself center stage while he's recovering just tells Lucario where not to go.
Which is good, because you don't want him centre stage. You gain coverage on both sides, and the shortest distance regardless of where he lands, except the edge (but a good DHD should be able to read an edge landing). If a DHD truly is worried about an edge grab, they can just perch a can (which denies get-up or camp) and then hold centre stage - which gives open gunman/frisbee coverage options (which is a free interrupt or force to shield). If they really are slow or land next to you, you get a free smash move in.

But this information of players not going where you are, is as you say "platitude". Common, trite information.

Let's talk about your other post.



Saying that Force Palm, Aura Sphere and ExtremeSpeed go farther the more Aura Lucario has is what is called a "platitude." It's common, trite information that's said as though it were wise or insightful. Everyone knows that Lucario's specials get better with his Aura, this isn't news.
Most people believe only his damage increases, not just his range.

Okay, first of all, what I said was "Lucario becomes dangerous at 70%." Lucario at 150% is overkill: at that percent, a particularly sturdy sneeze will knock Duck Hunt into the bubble. It's as unfair to base Lucario's strength at that percent as it is to assume he'll even survive that long.
But you just earlier said 'don't withhold damage if you're afraid of aura', but are now contradicting the point by saying he's overkill at 150% - which is what I'm saying. This doesn't prove my post as being wrong.

Second, I don't assume Lucario is at 0% either. I even said at the end of my post that, as much as I try to base match ups on that, it's not fair in this one because Duck Hunt has such a hard time killing. My entire post assumes that Lucario has at least some Aura.
Any aura below kill ranges I personally treat as par for the course.

And finally, by "overriding early Aura Spheres," I'm assuming you mean the disc. Disc will actually clank with Aura Sphere until something like 100%, which is weird for how strong Aura is at that time, but it's also highly useful, since it does at all. If you're referring to gunman or Can, or both, Aura Sphere will never ever ever ever ever beat them. Try it yourself: go to Training; put Lucario at 999% (I know Aura caps at 190% but 999% is faster), then shoot a fully charged Aura Sphere at the Can or a gunman. They'll stop the sphere entirely. If you're scared of it, putting either one down and hiding behind it is a valid strategy. It's just like what AlmostDoug said.
I didn't say gunman doesn't stop the aura sphere or the can.

I said if you're next to gunman when the aura sphere hits, it classically also hits you. Like Flare Blitz or Samus' charge shot (fully charged). Can tends to reflect in a 'return to sender' bent, which if the aura sphere would of killed you, isn't a biggie, but if you're on about 150% as DHD (which I tend to be), having a can pop back in your face is just as fatal as the sphere. And I know you'd say to shield, but that dreaded end lag often stops shield (and I think shields act 'weaker' the more damage you have - which is why you can take on a Little Mac full charge punch with a non-perfect during early percents without it breaking but later on it will break - which means at that percent shielding the can might entail dying anyway).

It's the same reason why Aura Sphere doesn't pass through, say, Nabbit.
If I ever deploy a nabbit I'll bear that in mind.

Lucario's frames and hitboxes (except his specials) are so piddly, no matter what percent he's at, that if you get hit by something hard, either it was a punish or it was your own fault.
Aren't his specials the ones that do the super KO damage? I'm not bothered about Lucario's light moves, he can keep those. I'm concerned about being murdered at 50% early on.

Let's assume Lucario is at maximum Aura and you are at 0%. Lucario can uthrow to uair you, and that'll do maybe 30% right there, but it won't kill. He can Force Palm grab to Force Palm flame (which is a true combo at high Aura and you are at low percent), but this will not kill. He can use any smash attack, and fsmash could very well kill at 0 with some charge (assuming center stage), but they're all so laggy and precise that it's your fault for getting hit by them.
You're going on about that 'fault' thing again. Like the OP of this thread states, I assume Lucario is being played competently (although I cover both bases and assume incompetence too), and they would bait you into a situation where they can get force palm in, and given it covers both sides, they don't have to be all that accurate - just well timed. And in a game where perfect shielding is a few frame and people do that regularly, I'd have a hard time believing a competent Lucario would miss a force palm.

My point being, all that strength doesn't mean jack if Lucario has no guarantees himself. He has to rely on Aura Sphere (which is rejected by gunman/Can) and Force Palm (which, if he spams, leaves him predictable and wide open). His run speed is too slow to chase you and his frame data doesn't help him at all. Remember how, in Dragonball Z, Trunks found a way to get much stronger and buffer than Vegeta, but when he tried to use that against Cell, he just got opened up because he was too slow? It's the same idea here.
But the problem is, as I did mention, all of DHD's distance attacks just add damage (buffing Lucario's damage), and DHD's speedy ones just don't kill. The ones that kill Lucario (with the exception of a well timed backair or up-air but you can't even read his up-B landings so it's a moot point) just so happen to be the slow ones that leave you vulnerable to his lower percent KOs.

On the disc, I was arguing that disc neutralizes Aura Sphere until high percents, not the other way around. Granted, this is a bit confusing since we're arguing the same thing, but from "glass-half-full/empty" perspectives.
Yeah, I get that. But I meant it more in contrast to say Samus' charge shot in that never will it ever break through. I am trying to aim my comments both at new players (stating the range and the frisbee bypass) and experienced players (damage management, stage control) but neither party will be happy with my 'overview'.

Like I said, Aura Sphere will never beat the Can or the gunman. It'll vanish the frame its first hitbox touches the gunman's hurtbox. It will never "extend" beyond him and has zero chance of hitting you at all. Same goes for Can. The only attack that will do these is Force Palm.
I'll go double-check this, but I've had the experience of being KO'd despite having gunman out to block, and I thought it was the same thing as Charizard's side-B and Samus' charge shot so I shrugged it off.

Aura Sphere hitting the Can will send it rocketing to the moon, sure, but it's better than getting hit by the sphere yourself. Unless, of course, it's already been hit by one of Lucario's own projectiles, in which case, it won't move at all.
See my DHD 150% comment about can above. A can can kill DHD at about 144% if it's close to edge, but I'm assuming mid-stage.

Shielding a fully-charged Aura Sphere at maximum Aura is very dangerous because it's crazy good at breaking shields. And since I know you'd rather sit in your shield than protect yourself with a gunman, here comes another one, which you either have to take or risk getting your shield broken, leaving you open to a fully charged fsmash.
Assuming the gunman thing is true (I will go double check), as is frisbee, they don't work at the higher percents of Lucario's damage, which makes them more risky than a possible shield failure (which shouldn't happen if you've got perfect shielding down, which I do use). Can will work at before DHD's 140% (144% risks self-KO), but I don't like having a dead can on the playing field (because it's vital in KO'ing off-stage opponents), especially if they can jab it back at me.

"Space" and "stay all up in your grill" are two different things. You make it sound like Duck Hunt is completely immobilized by Lucario.
You can space with projectiles... but you're contributing damage to Lucario. Which is great at early percents, but not if you want him to stay out of the 'overkill' range.

Of course using a smash attack in neutral is risky as hell, don't be obtuse. If you're close enough to use a smash attack, but it whiffs, no "smart" Lucario will use the flame of Force Palm as a punish: they'll either go for Force Palm grab or a smash attack. The flame is for spacing, and since Duck Hunt gave that up for the attack, Lucario will punish with something much more severe than an intentionally whiffed Force Palm.
You still know what I mean. This is just pedantry on movesets.

You could play the long-distance game with Lucario, but if you want to get the kill with less laggy moves, you're going to have to get your hands dirty. This is not a unique problem to Duck Hunt. Mario isn't about to kill Lucario with fireballs, or Sheik with needles, or Diddy with bananas. Even Villager needs to get in close if he wants the slingshots to kill. Duck Hunt's alternative is to hope that the Can will eventually get the kill, which, if you don't do anything else but throw Cans, won't work because they're easy as hell to shield or Double Team. You have to risk approaching. Suck it up.
Again with the patronising attitude. Mario, Sheik and Diddy all have primarily melee movesets (and their smash moves are far faster compared to DHD). All you're doing is verifying my point DHD has to go close range, which if you forgotten, contradicts your earlier point about 'not getting close to Lucario'.

So which is it? Stay close and KO at risk of force palm etc KO'ing you? Or stay safe and distant?

Feel free to feel like I'm "ganging up on you" because I had to spend an hour of my time painstakingly telling you why you're wrong.
You do know a gang has more than one person, right? I asked you to explain your points, which besides trying to insinuate I'm a "scrub" who only played Lucario "once", have to "suck it up", you didn't really contradict any points except maybe gunman which I'm going to double-check rather than utilising what is a vague form of personal abuse.
 

Joshua Flynn

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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Went and tested it, and I will hold up my hands and say that I'm wrong:

Aura sphere even at 200% does not bypass gunman. I am utterly confused because I am absolutely sure that previously I had been hit by an aura sphere when standing next to gunman. I feel like I'm going nuts...


...Edit: In retrying different scenarios, it turns out I wasn't nuts. I'll upload the demo video in short order. There is an instance where it can happen, although it is unlikely.
 
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Croi

Smash Lord
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You put up the gunman way too late in that video. Holy ****, how could you possibly think that was correct? It's like you tried to get the timing wrong.

I'm neither going to read nor dignify your other post because I don't appreciate being told I'm wrong by someone that is wrong when I know I'm right.
 

WispBae

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J Joshua Flynn please try to avoid double or triple posts in a rowin such a short time, they're actually against Smashboards rules. We don't have a mod for the doggy forums but if one of them sees that, you might get a warning. =\
 

Joshua Flynn

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You put up the gunman way too late in that video. Holy ****, how could you possibly think that was correct? It's like you tried to get the timing wrong.
Does the same thing at close range, too. I'll be uploading a video example of that as well.

I'm neither going to read nor dignify your other post because I don't appreciate being told I'm wrong by someone that is wrong when I know I'm right.
That's very circular. But calling people "scrub" (which is pretty unprofessional, especially the "once" match remark) just because you disagree with them isn't proof they're wrong. And the gunman was one point out of several. You actually agreed with the frisbee, early KO and acknowledged Lucario does become dangerous (such he just had to 'sneeze') and yet called me a "scrub" for saying the same thing? Madness!

J Joshua Flynn please try to avoid double or triple posts in a rowin such a short time, they're actually against Smashboards rules. We don't have a mod for the doggy forums but if one of them sees that, you might get a warning. =\
Noted. I thought it was best to keep distinct replies separate. I'll append the next video to this and I think best I drop this issue because I don't think Croi wanted a level debate.

 
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AlmostDoug

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The fact it kills DHD at 'maybe 50%' is what makes aura dangerous. To put this in context, a final smash often requires players be about 45-50% before it KOs them. And Lucario only has to bait one badly timed smash from DHD or get in on some nice end lag, which down-air, u-smash, d-smash, f-smash and frisbee all nicely provide.
You mean those moves we say you shouldn't be using without a guarantee or when he's at low aura for the frisbee
Is Falcon vulnerable when he's going for reverse Falcon punch too
Except Lucario's main game isn't projectiles. So it's better to say it can neutralise ours because ours is more projectile centric. Hiding behind can is null because anyone with a basic grasp just dash attacks the can (or spikes it at a distance with some other move). Sure you could counter-dash but then can juggles and due to DHD being one of the frame-slowest characters and he gets an explosion. You could roll dodge but it's broken at the moment from what I can see (people can hit DHD... mid roll dodge) and thus prone to being caught. Jump and can says 'hi'.
Yes Lucario can hit the can back
It still blocks out AS
And the risk of the can coming back to you is something you should be used to managing because literally anyone can do it
It's still an obstacle for Luc that should consistently be in your favor
You haven't explained how his neutral game is 'so bad'. Slow, maybe (but I did say he was slow)? But as DHD with terrible end lag on a chunk of moves, it's not something that is entirely disadvantageous.
Unlike you, we have no effective spammable projectiles for our neutral (you can shut down AS), little in the way of disjoints and definitely no quick ones, AND we're slow
You have end lag? So do we, but you have disjoints to make it safer, and better projectiles
As for aura sphere, you're assuming on-stage where it's a level playing field. When you're airborne, an aura sphere that can KO at low percents becomes pretty scary and your only options are:

1) Ledge grab for invincibility
2) Hope air dodge works (it tends not to - dodge issues)
3) Crazy tech that landing with the fastest shielding known to mankind
4) Hope your projectile doesn't get beat out by aura sphere, and if it's a can, hope it doesn't kill you on reflect

That's assuming above stage. If you're off-stage he can just toss it regardless then try to spike, back air the recovery. Force palm does decent coverage for roll on/get up (which given we have our nearly non-functional roll dodge, becomes problematic).
First off, we're gonna prefer Aura Sphere to cover your get up.
Second off, yes you're more vulnerable to AS in the air. But in the air isn't where you have to be the vast majority of the time, given you can safely wall us on the ground.
OH AND DID I MENTION that AS is one of our least potent kill moves, requiring high aura and for you to be at a high percent, which again, you probably won't get to, as either your walling is on point or it isn't and we already killed you
Why hold discussions in match-ups if you guys only want to agree to the same approaches?
Because one is optimal and intuitive?
I'm no idle contributor, either - low percent can KOs, 0% KO moves, slide glitche demos (and tests in newer versions), upthrow kill percents.
Yes you've contributed data for playing Duck Hunt
That is 100% irrelevant to your credibility for this MU
Aren't his specials the ones that do the super KO damage?
Force Palm Grab does a lot of knock back, but that's a punish move. I already mentioned Aura Sphere.
All our kill moves in a rough order of how early they kill since idr exactly: Fsmash for tier one
Force Palm grab, Usmash and Dsmash for tier two
Bair and Uair for tier three
Aura Sphere and Double Team for tier four
Keep in mind Usmash and Bair can be combo'd out of our Aura Sphere's charge
 

WispBae

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Alright, onto the bounty hunter!

Usually I choose a silly picture but this is just really awesomely made, I can't help but show it off.

:4duckhunt:VS:4samus:
PROS! (For Duck Hunt)

  • Similar to Lucario's AS, most of Doggy's projectiles will nullify Charge Shot.
  • Can outcamp Samus, force her to approach.
  • Trick Shot is excellent harassment for Sami (Samuses?) who like to bomb stall off stage.
CONS! (For Duck Hunt)
  • Her deceptively heavy weight (prolly all da booty) makes her harder to KO.
  • Her maneuverability and options makes her tricky to hit and even harder to gimp off stage.
  • Zair is very strong in the neutral against people who camp her.
There are quite a few Samus mains in my area, and I just don't understand the MU to be honest (@Depth_ @Tumultus ), but I don't think the MU is as bad as I think it is in my head, I think it's more so the lack to knowledge, really.

On Doggy's side, Trick Shot and Gunmen both stop charge shots, shutting down a huge chunk of offensive power by Samus. Keeping the can out in the middle of the stage is a great retreat option and we should be using gunmen anyways to poke at the bounty hunter, as the shots go through missiles and we can protect them by summoning, followed up by a run up shield. Clay shot continues to be risky here, as it does not reliably stop charge shot, but can be great for catching Samus slow landings on stage. While Doggy's moveset mostly outranges hers, the control of the air she has makes her tricky to hit, since she can sway to and fro just barely tickle us with Bairs and Fairs. She most definitely wins off stage, don't risk going after her, Zair catches the ledge horizontally, and you really can't safely challenge her up B, being a multi hit move, unless you catch her on the side very carefully, which is not easy when the Duck continues to be a hurtbox on Bair and Fair.

On Samus' side, while we outcamp her, her Zair can pierce and harass Doggy, going through Gunmen and knocking mid-air cans away. This is more of a baiting technique, to force and approach since it only does 1~2% of damage, but it works a lot of the time against those who don't know the MU (myself included). If you have a Zair happy Samus, trades between gunmen and her whip usually work in Doggy's favor, and you can send cans over the whip to make her come to you. She has an excellent combo game when she does get in, that leads into KO's with bad DI, so make sure you learn how to before fighting her.

I'll wait to judge the score until we chat some more, I quite like how productive we were with the Lucario MU. =] But at first glance, I would think it to be 0 or +1 for Doggy, since Samus does have to get in close to for the KO eventually, meaning we have a slight advantage.
 

Xygonn

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I think it's pretty close to even with Samus having a slight advantage. I haven't faced a ton of good DHD players, but on the occasion that I did (there was one stuck in Smash Hell with me that was the best I ever played) I went a little more than even once I figured out his projectile pattern that worked pretty well on me for a few rounds. I've also played around a hundred matches with DHD, lurked this character board, and kinda understand DHD.

Samus Pros:

Heavy, hard for DHD to kill, uair is DHD's best kill move vs. Samus.
Super missile can eat a clay or kill a gunman. Regular missiles will also kill a clay. DHD isn't fast enough to punish missile like some characters.
CS can still punish DHD if projectile management breaks down.
Zair is a great harassment tool and lands well outside of fsmash range.
SHAD is an important tool for approaching DHD.

Cons:

Floaty, mediocre mobility, can be juggled by projectile and DHD aerial strings.

DHD Pros.

Slightly faster projectile spam will eventually win the projectile war of attrition. All projectiles eat CS.
Appropriate use of can, mobility, and stage positioning makes it hard for Samus to effectively approach.
Superior air and ground mobility.
Nair autocancel window is 7 frames after the last hitbox.

DHD Cons

Extremely vulnerable upb when recovering.
Everything other than nair is pretty laggy. Get's upb'd OoS a lot. A lot a lot. Samus can even shield grab bair and dair. In addition samus can shield grab fair if it is high on shield.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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Alright, lemme just get my :troll:ish giggles that seem to occur over folks calling her "Spamus" out of my system before I get going here.

To me, the real comedy over that nickname, aside from how fun it is to say it out loud in a comedically over-the-top fashion (Ex. Hold the second s and take it from there), is how beatable such a fighting style is, which if its anything like the "For Glory Link ROB" style that riled up LoF|False some time ago, which featured lots of rolling, lots of (Super) Missiles while charging up Neutral B, and much lag, then it isn't really viable against us canines, because we can actually outproduce her, her CS can get consumed by any part of our arsenal, and she has one of the slowest rolls out of everyone (by the time she finishes 1 roll, we'd have rolled 2 times), which if read and we're in prime position to take advantage of it, it will lead to a big punish.
("Please work for us, Smash Attacks! We beg of you!")

I may be months late on this, but the other derogatory nickname "Zero Skill Spamus" amuses me just as much in terms of hammily saying it out loud. Sadly, she's not AS easily defeated as plain ol' "Spamus," but thankfully it's still doable.

The giggles are over now. NOW I'll get going here.


Custom Loadouts:

Samus will likely run x211 or x212 or x231 or x232. I personally would've ran 2232 pre-patch for most matches (not this MU), but now a more ideal deck would probably be 3211, due to the changes in shield stun and the damage buffs Neutral 3 got this patch. I personally would still want to try running 3232, since I'm quite the fan of Up 3 and Down 2, and those 2 moves might show up against us, despite the shield stun changes, so going over those moves would be of some use, regardless.


Melee Charge Shot (Neutral 3) pierces through our entire arsenal, minimizing the usefulness of Mega Gunmen, though its range is the shortest of the 3 CSes. Its KO power has gotten buffed, allowing it to KO us sooner than even Neutral 1 can, plus it charges up much faster than the other CSes as well (Upon the word "GO!!", it takes 2 seconds to fully charge Neutral 3. At a stage like Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64, you'll probably be able to reach her in 1 second. At a bigger stage, she may get to charge the whole move before you can even reach her), increasing its frequency of use. Every use of it will recoil Samus back farther than it used to (especially in the air, where its recoil is as drastic as Mewtwo's fully charged Shadow Ball), adding to its safety upon having it blocked, which is also boosted by the amount of block stun it generates being greater than before. Expect Custom Samus to try to land this when you're at 80+% near the edges (65+% near the edges, and 95+% at center stage withOUT DI) for the KO, much like what Dr. Mario would do with his FSmash. Its horizontal knockback trajectory might give it some value at Castle Siege/Delfino/Smashville as well.

Relentless Missiles (Side 2) may not travel as fast as the other Missiles, but its slowness is what makes it such a good tool for covering her approaches, as ChrisGers running Pushy Lloid would tell us. Default Clays clash with these (neither gets to continue onwards upon colliding with each other), as well as all Gunmen (gets KO'd in 1 go), but Megas can tank/urvives multiples). Default Cans will get returned to sender for full impact, but Zigzags will generally only hit us back for 1% without exploding or making us flinch at all. The Super Missile version of this move has more KO power than the other Super Missile types, but it doesn't home in on the opponent, its travel distance is merely 1/2 of FD, and its the slowest moving of the Super Missiles (this would be a plus for her if she's nearby to add to its pressure, IMO), especially once it's almost at the 1/2 of FD mark. While both Missile types can OHKO default Clays and both default & Quick Gunmen, Mega Gunmen can block off multiple Missiles, including Supers, before getting KO'd.

Apex Screw Attack (Up 3) used to be a strong candidate, until the shield stun increase decreased its potency as an OoS option. It still KOs us earlier than Up 1 does despite its more straight-upwards angle & boosted KO power this patch (low ceiling stages like Halberd and T&C become places to consider avoiding when Up 3 is repped), and its recovery range doesn't seem to suffer too much for this increased KO power. However, its startup is slower than Up 1's and even Up 2's, so it's not AS useful for breaking out of juggles or being an OoS punish as Up 1 or even Up 2 are. Its hitboxes also don't linger as long as Up 1 & 2 do, so catching air dodges aren't as easy with this. Challenging this move off-stage is actually easier than her Up 1 is, as surprising as this may sound, for our NAir can handle it, since there's only 2 hitboxes on Apex (startup and the titular Apex) in comparison to the lingering multiple hits on her Up 1 & 2.

Slip Bombs (Down 2) are one of the few true ways to force a hard knockdown on someone in Sm4sh via induced tripping. Combined with Relentless Missiles, the pressure this can add on her approaches is impressive... against some of the other cast. So long as we have our Mega Gunmen out and retreat behind it whenever necessary while keeping a sharp eye on her Neutral 3, such pressurized cover fire can be dealt with. She can park a Slip Bomb on a platform above her by short-hopping under said platform while using Slip Bomb to move either to the left or right of said platform. Her horizontal air movement is not as good with this as it is with Down 1, so while catching her might be easier, her payoff for landing Slip Bomb can be greater than default, for if you're in the air when it hits you, it will spike you downwards like Link's Meteor Bombs (said spiking effects will NOT apply to herself at all, even if she's affected by its explosion in midair), plus she's able to freely attack you while Slip Bomb's in the middle of exploding, even in the air. As alluded to earlier, it does less damage than Down 1, making it less safe on shield than it used to be.


We canines will likely run 31x3, with 3123 being my go-to pick for this MU, followed by 3113 and then 3133.

Zigzag (Neutral 3) will harass her floaty airtime, and with her being as heavy as she is, racking up 20+% with it will be easier than on others. Zigzag crashing into us isn't nearly as dangerous for us as it would be with the other Can types, so we can use it alongside Clays during the intergalactic shootouts (with Rising, we can B-Press Zigzag while Rising's out, though I doubt we'll use Side 2 here), especially if we're safely using our Gunmen Guardians.

DJS (Up 2) will help bail us out of any juggles she may catch us in. While it may not be as potent of an OoS move as it used to be, it'll still be of use for us on the defense, which can help us compete with her OoS options. It'll also help protect us from DAir spikes & other edgeguards that aren't (Super) Missiles and (Melee) CSes (unless it clanks with them, which would make challenging her on-stage advances easier?). I've not yet tested whether or not it'll protect us against Slip Bomb spikes, but I'm trusting that it will until further notice (hence the blue text).

SDJ (Up 3): Attempting to gimp Samus's recovery with Up 3 is not going to be easy, due to her slow vertical descent speed and especially her ZAir tether, much like what Lucas has, but at least its horizontal blowback range is greater than Up 2's, as is its vertical recovery range. Thankfully for us, she's not the fastest of movers, so pushing her away with this can be of value... If you want to run this, I'd recommend going to Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64 if possible for the quick top platform retreat.

Mega Gunmen (Down 3) will protect us from all 3 (Super) Missile variants and both default & Dense Charge Shots, so against those, we can chip at her safely from behind our Guardian with Clays & Cans until she closes in, which she will be forced to do if she doesn't have the percent lead. Melee CSes and all 3 Screw Attack & Bomb types will pierce through and possibly occur frequently, so keep that in mind.


Stage Picks:

Considering how capable we are at outproducing her, I presume that any stage that helps her break through our fortress would be undesirable, which would likely mean Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64, Castle Siege, and possibly Lylat Cruise.

I did not mention this earlier, but her Up 2 has a cheesy Side Blast Zone KO power, much like Zard's Side 3, so stages like Delfino, Castle Siege, and even Smashville might tempt her to run Up 2. Its 45-ish degree attack angle lets her anti-air us at a position she normally doesn't quickly cover, and she can shark platforms from below with it as well, including Smashville's 1 platform, much like Peach's Side 3. I personally wouldn't expect Custom Samus to rep Up 2 too often, but the possibility does exist.

FD/Omegas would be worth our while here, since there's no platforms for her to use against our arsenal. Whether or not we'll want the Walled variants, since she too has wall-jumps...

Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: +1 in favor of DH. We may not have Megas, but we'll still be able to outproduce her, if she doesn't make good use of SH ZAirs, tilts, aerials, Missiles, Bombs, and Screw Attacks to plow through our arsenal.

WITH Customs: Still +1 in favor of DH, though not as firmly held as it is for withOUT Customs. Mega Gunmen & Zigzag Can are quite powerful against her, as is Duck Jump Snag, since they'll certainly overpower even Custom Samus's entire arsenal. Sure, she may have Melee Charge Shot, Apex Screw Attack, and Slip Bombs, but she'll have to get in if she's going to actually land those.

This is 1 MU where I'd definitely rep DH over Jr if customs are off. If Customs are on, I might try either 1321 or 3321 or 1323 or 3323 with Jr, and if I get blown up for it, then 3123 DH will likely come out next.
 
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Perris6

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I too believe that the Samus MU is even if not +1 in the dog's favor.
Cons: Samus can pressure doggy with missiles and can destroy gunmen and clay pigeon.
Can pressure doggy offstage
Pros: Duck Hunt's projectiles, all of them, beat Charge Shot!
Can out spam samus (pressure)

In this MU you want to pressure the Samus player while forcing them to throw out defensive options. Power shield Zairs and get right up under them. When Zair comes out there is a window where one can punish her. Can and gunmen pressure off stage, clay pigeon when she is ways away. You want to get all up in her face in this MU. Oh, and have a can or a projectile in front of you at all times, just in case a CS is coming your way.

I have 3 samus mains in my crew that I play often, one who is considered the best samus player. So I have played this MU MANY times. Not too difficult, just always keep in mind the strategies I gave you.
 
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WispBae

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After all the discussion, I think I'd give Samus a 0, honestly, as it feels pretty even for both of them. They both have around the same amount of advantages over each other, and it's most likely going to come down to who is the most skilled of the two of them. Duck Hunt should aim to keep Trick Shot out to block attempts at Charge Shot, and keep poking away at Samus through projectile spam. Once Charge Shot is gone, if you want to go in for KO's, that is the time, as it is as safe as you can be. Just remember to DI her u-air and screw attack correctly.

Week 15! Whatcha guys thinking about MU's? Down below is what is left:

:4charizard::4link::4marth::4wiifit::4zelda::4palutena::4lucina::4robinm:/:4robinf::4shulk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4falco::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4mewtwo::4ryu:

I'd go for Palutena next, since I think she is one of the more underrated characters in the game (Areolink and Prince Ramen make her look sooooo silly), and perhaps Robin or Ryu, since they are both getting more popular. (I'd be able to talk about Robin better though, she is my other main...)
 

Splooshi Splashy

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*Cue the Player Select Theme from the Street Fighter EX 3 OST*

I'll definitely vote for Ryu, since more developments for him have been starting to come out lately. Folks are claiming that he's as solo-viable as the likes of ZSS, Diddy, Yoshi, and even Sheik, which for him to be seen this way is perhaps proof that he's the best DLC Cast Member thus far. Not even Lucas & Roy are treated this way, despite how capable they are at challenging us, and Mewtwo's considered as bottom-tier as Zelda & Samus. Even GimR brought his Ryu out today at Xanadu, and so far, as of the making of his post, he's been tearin' it up with him, though I know not if he'll win this week's Xanadu.

He's been making more waves on the tournament venues & in the meta as of late, so it'd be nice to finally reign in some of the hype surrounding him, plus if Emblem Lord (or was it someone else?) drops by here, we'll finally get to read why he (or someone else?) once claimed that Ryu has the edge over us canines. I personally think otherwise, especially if Customs are on, though that COULD change if Ryu's up for discussion this week. Not since the Bowser Jr MU have I had such a personally vested interest in a matchup, and unlike the Jr MU, it's of apparent global interest as well (as mighty as Tweek is with him, he's still the #1 name in regards to him, and even he's picked up others like Wario to make up for Jr's deficiencies). Villager & DK were of global interest IMO (Customs!), though Charizard & the Miis would be personally interesting MUs as well, but I'll wait on them later, since there's still more pressing MUs than them coming up (Zard's not very common, and Miis since EVO have generally been rendered MIA, despite Tourney Mode allowing them to flourish with their best setups (including size!), even withOUT Custom Specials turned on for everyone else). Mii Brawler IS of global interest, IMO, considering the hate he/she gets over his/her Up 2, Helicopter Kick, but again, I'll wait on him/her, due to the rareness.

I've made some headway into which of his incarnations seem to have transferred over to here the most, and 4 of them to me (for now; more will come up later) are:

  • CVS2 with K-Groove (It featured Running (the stopping of which here is NOT instantaneous), Rage (no meters here in Sm4sh, just look at percents), Just Defends (ground only in Sm4sh, though Air JDs are possible as well in CVS2), Small Jumps, and Safe Falling (aka teching), all of which ARE here in Sm4sh, aside from Supers when the Rage meter's filled up)
  • EX series (Its Guard Break attack in Sm4sh are both the Collarbone Shield Breaker (Strong FTilt) & LVL 3 Focus Attack, plus the stages in the whole EX series do NOT have permanent corners, so locking down folks there isn't as easy as it would be in the rest of his series)
  • 3rd Strike (if you look past his lack of Air, Red, and even Ground Parries (the sound of a Parry IS here, but the function of it is NOT), which means NO World-Famous Daigo Parry EVO Moment #37 recreations against us, though he DOES crave more upclose combat than his fireball-heavy ST self, at least)
  • With a hint of the Marvel VS series (Air Juggles and Air-Usable Specials, though no Super Jumps. Oh, and even TVC:UAS is included if you count FADC-ing in the air as a pseudo-armored airdash).
To prep us further, I can provide this link to the 1st week release's discussion of the Ryu VS DH MU here (it goes into the next page): http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...discussion-revamp-sheik.406307/#post-19444966

I myself did participate with the intent of helping out Ryu players (including myself; It was Week 1, after all, and I was looking to main him, ever since he was announced as DLC) while also serving as a representative for us canines in a way.

Looking back at it, I think picking Down 3 (Mega Gunmen) against him might be worth considering as well, since it can guard us against all Hadouken types (even the red Shakunetsus) multiple times before getting KO'd, and if it sticks around long enough, our Guardian will get to fire back at him. Sure, we lose a distant poking/footsies tool that can help deal with FADCs, but we give him a reason to approach us, especially if we stand our ground behind our Guardian. Whether Down 3 or Down 2 or even Down 1 will be the Gunmen of choice here is what I'm wondering about as well....


As for my 2nd vote... As Joshua Flynn once requested, perhaps either Link or Falco, considering how frequently they seem to show up as counterpick ideas against us. Between the 2, I'd pick Link, since my 2nd youngest bro (I'm the youngest of 4 brothers, btw) mains him, so I can definitely bring in much intel. I regret missing out on the Toon Link MU earlier, since I myself rep him from time to time, and the Custom Side of the (T)Link MUs are quite the treat to engage in, since it REALLY reminds me of a Touhou 2D fighter match (Immaterial & Missing Power, Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, and Hisoutensoku, to be specific). DH gets to run 3123 or 3113, while TL gets to run 2233 or 2133 or 2223 or 2123 (While I'd personally run 2233, I'd want to try 2223, because the 1.1.1/2 patch buffed the damage on Up 2~).
As for plain ol' Link, he'll likely run 3211 or 3221 or 3213 or 3223 (I myself would run this, despite having horrendous recovery distances).

As much as I'd love to talk about Customtena (I'll admit, I straight-up have puppy love over her 2322 deck, because being able to pop P4AU Yosuke Hanamura's Suku-Kaja (?) at the start of a match withOUT using any meter, alongside Super Speed pressure setups, Jump Glide's aerial freedom, and the half-screen-away anti-zoning Explosive Flame, all combined makes her.... GDLK-- but wait, she IS a Goddess, so she's more than just GDLK. XD), I'd rather focus on both what the rest of us want (ex. Link for Flynn), and who's making notable splashes on the competitive scene (ex. Ryu).
 
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WispBae

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Alright!! Week 15!! This week we shall be taking on the Hero of Courage (or For Glory), Link, and the wandering warior, Ryu!!

The poor car never saw it coming... they WAXED first, then rinsed!! =[

:4duckhunt:VS:4ryu:

PROS! (For Doggy)

  • Ryu's odd mobility makes avoid projectiles hard.
  • Focus Punch can't block multi-hit moves (U-Air, Clay Pigeon, both hits of Trick Shot).
  • Bad offstage game makes his recovery very predictable.
CONS! (For Doggy)
  • Ryu needs very little to KO early (with and without rage).
  • Predictable moves are punished much harder with Ryu than others.
  • Input Hadoken goes through projectiles.
While there aren't many Ryu mains in my area, the ones I've fought on Anther's are scary when played right. By himself, Ryu is pretty bad, as he is one of the harder characters to play, so be wary when you do find a Ryu main, they most likely know what they are doing.

On Doggy's side, Clay Pigeon is actually very good in the MU. Of course you can never spam it, but punishing Ryu for jumping at the wrong time is very good, especially since multi hit moves break through Focus Punch. A bad footsies game on Ryu side with telegraphed jumps is very easy to break with pigeon, as he's almost stuck in his momentum when he jumps. This same low mobilbity means dealing with Trick Shot is much more tricky, as having it out severely cuts down on Ryu's options. Jumping is more punishable than usual and retreating gunmen make it very hard to pin down the doggy. Doggy's disjoints work fantastically in this MU as well, since Ryu HAS to approach for all of his KO options. Really abuse your range and keep him at bay.

On Ryu's side, reading, punishing and jukes are the name of the game. I wouldn't exactly call him "Ganon"-esque, but he does have to choose his approaches carefully, since trading is not a great option. Having a way to fake out moves with Focus cancels and pivoting, means a good Ryu will be watching your bad habits first, playing passively, before cracking down on those options you thought were safe. For shielders, his F-tilt breaks on second hit, he can focus cancel into grabs, and once he gets a string going, he can pretty much guarantee 50%. The fact that he can kill off a string at the mid-percents means you NEED to focus on mixing things up, as his punishes are very hard but very read heavy. Offstage, he can easily get us, but his linear recovery means Trick Shot harassment is great off stage (aimed low), and if you get him from the side of his Shoruken, an easy stage spike. If you are not feeling confident though, just run on stage and set up projectiles, as Shoru does have super armor, so trades from the top are not happening.

I'd give Doggy a +1 in this MU. Mix-ups and staying unpredictable is very important, and don't fight up close if you don't need too. Ryu doesn't need much to KO but the fact that he needs a read AND has to approach gives him a bad time against projectile characters. I can't speak about Hadoken though, I need some help with how it works, it does still confuse me a bit.
 

meleebrawler

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Heads up: there are two kinds of input hadoukens. There's the normal one which is just a bigger and stronger version of the standard hadouken, and the red, mulithitting one you mentioned that is called Shakunetsu Hadouken. Since it does multiple hits it won't be immediately stopped by hurtboxes, but because each individual hit is so weak contact with pretty much any hitbox will dissipate it. Ryu can also vary the speed and distance for all hadouken types based on how long he holds the button.

Shoryuken doesn't have armour, it's invincible at the start with the input version.
 

WispBae

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Heads up: there are two kinds of input hadoukens. There's the normal one which is just a bigger and stronger version of the standard hadouken, and the red, mulithitting one you mentioned that is called Shakunetsu Hadouken. Since it does multiple hits it won't be immediately stopped by hurtboxes, but because each individual hit is so weak contact with pretty much any hitbox will dissipate it. Ryu can also vary the speed and distance for all hadouken types based on how long he holds the button.

Shoryuken doesn't have armour, it's invincible at the start with the input version.
Just the start of Shoru? How long does it last? Is it safe to challenge?
 

a dog

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As I mentioned in another thread, I don't really know how to fight the Link matchup. Most FG Links sit in one place spamming, only occasionally stopping to go for either a grab with his chain or a dash attack. If you try to attack him from the air, it's either a roll -> f-smash, grab out of shield, or he swats at you with the amazing hitboxes on his utilt and up smash. I haven't found any good way of dealing with this nonsense, though since I am still a beginner at this game I'm probably playing the match-up incorrectly. Doesn't help that the Links win and then disappear after one match, giving me very little opportunity to learn how to play against this character.

Advice would be greatly appreciated. So far all I know is to let arrows and boomerang go stale so that gunmen stand a chance, but since that takes a while you have to be patient and stall the match for a long time.
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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*Cue the 1st Bonus Stage Theme from the Dreamcast/PS2 versions of Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike, which is probably the most peaceful & chill song to have ever been used for wailing on a vacant SUV.... ;o*
Needless to say, that was one of my most favorite versions of that Bonus Stage, especially since I can do some sweet combos like Crouching MK xx EX Mantis Slashes with Yang or Close Standing HP xx EX Oroshi (QCB+2 Punches) with Makoto for great damage, since despite appearances, you DID start off with a FULL super meter... >:3
Now if only someone came by after successfully breaking the SUV like what happened in the original Final Fight's and SF4's versions of their Bonus Stages....



*Cue the Character Select Theme from the Street Fighter EX Plus Alpha Original Soundtrack*
Our target today is a world-renowned martial artist with a LONG history that has helped mold him into thee World Warrior we see him as today, and for some of us reading this, much of that history may not be readily known. While his meta here may not be AS well-developed as it is in seemingly every other fighter he's in, aside from SF5's current Beta status, much of what makes him who he is has come from that long history, and while I may not have gone over it during week 1, since months have passed, I now believe it helpful for us to go over some of his most notable tournament-level appearances. Seemingly every iteration I'll be mentioning today are STILL seriously played in actual tournaments to this day, so even if this is potentially your first time really getting a glimpse of his tournament-level past, picking up those fighters now might still be worth your while. Who knows, your Sm4sh performance might actually level up from checking out his series in actual tournament settings.

I do want to say that during my historical analysis, I WILL be going over Sm4sh Ryu along the way. I DO hope that I can keep track of that during all this, since there's much history to cover.

My 1st Impressions of VS Ryu, written from Jr's perspective:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...dering-warrior-ryu-matchup-discussion.406207/

Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu

Without further ado, let's begin.... with who, among the fighters he's actually fought before, we canines might be the most comparable to. 2 come to mind:

*Cue "zts - haze" from the Umineko no Naku Koro ni musicbox Red disc b Album*

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo's Old Sagat


I've made comparisons between Custom DH & Old Sagat before, and I genuinely do mean that. Here's the gist of what one of ST Old Sagat's best gameplans against the majority of the cast is, which might sound similar to some of our styles (especially when we're up against the likes of DK & Bowser):

Keep the opponent out of your face for as long as you can with Tiger Shot mixups (they deal chip damage!), and if the opponent gets close, use your Standing LK, St. & Crouching HK, Jumping HK, Tiger Uppercut/Knee, and various other moves to anti-air and push the opponent back & away from you, so you can resume chucking Tiger Shots. Hold your ground & repeat this cycle, including when up against folks like New Chun, New Boxer, New Claw and New Dhalsim, who can actually challenge this strategy with their Supers (Dhalsim, Boxer, and Claw have other effective options before their Supers are ready, though Claw doesn't need Super at all, since all he needs is 1 hard knockdown and it might be "Hyouball" loops to the end), until you win.


The DH VS Pac-Man MU we talked about in this Thread months earlier? And the DunnoBro VS Zage match that happened at least a month ago at one of the Xanadu Weeklies? It reminded me of the New Chun-Li VS Old Sagat MU in ST, with Pac being New Chun-Li and DH being Old Sagat, hence my comparison of Galaxian and Pac's other arsenal-piercing states to ST Chun-Li with a full bar of meter, which makes Sagat think twice about recklessly throwing out Tiger Shots at poor times, lest he gets hard knockdown'd by Chun's invincible Super (its input is Hold back/Down&Back for 2 seconds, then forward, back, then forward (which you can HOLD until you...) & press any kick button) for high damage & loss of momentum. I earnestly wished I shared an example of this earlier during that week, but here it is now (the loss of momentum part doesn't happen here, but hopefully the idea of it can be inferred), and pay close attention to Chun's super meter & Sagat's Paradigm Shifts because of it, especially in Rounds 2 & 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EmyvMckzLU
Until the meter's filled & after the Super's spent, the above stated gameplan for Old Sagat rules the roost.

Is this fighting style viable against Sm4sh Ryu, even withOUT Customs (Our Up 2 is like his Tiger Uppercut in terms of purpose)? To an extent, yes. Unlike in his own series, (Shakunetsu) Hadoukens alone will generally NOT KO us (unless we're using Stamina/HP rules)), even if its the True Inputted versions at around 200%, so if we're at KO percent, he's going to have to get in to actually score that KO. Until he gets in, I don't believe that he'll be capable of KO-ing us. Were he to have a Super bar, it probably would've been for Shinkuu/Metsu Hadouken, which probably would've been a KO projectile, potentially giving him a reason to try to patiently hold his ground from a distance like what Pac can afford to do.

On our end, our Trick Shot (or Zigzag if Customs are on) WILL eventually KO him from a distance, and our normally-unreliable FSmash can blow up FAs if he tries to land with it active, and even more eventually, our tippered FAir will KO him. All of these can KO from farther away than seemingly any of Ryu's attacks, aside from True Tatsu, which isn't too safe of a move to throw out if he's not in.


And Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3's Rocket Raccoon

It's not in our projectile throwing or even movement speed that we're like him (we may have decent speed, but we don't have his Rocket Skates or a burrowing teleport (Tunnel Rat) or even his Hover, which can let him do Mugen!MegaYoshi levels of instant overhead trickery. *squees!*). It's his small size, the amount of projectiles he has (some of them are actually traps), & the space that he can control with them that we can relate to him (We don't have any of his cool traps though, especially Bear & Log... :[). We also can relate to how he can use his arsenal to cover his approaches (ex. firing off 2 Spitfire shots (either grounded or in the air) before using the burrowing teleport), though we're more like Alice Margatroid from the Touhou 2D fighters (Immaterial & Missing Power, Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, Hisoutensoku) in that we'll need to buy some time to "set up shop" with our arsenal before we can safely start going in.


Ryu himself here is a combination of many of his incarnations. Here's a few of which ones I do not believe to have made it in his Sm4sh form. 2 in particular:

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Old/New Ryu, in terms of his fireball game, which for us is good, because he's not going to try to lock us down in the corner with the Sea of Hadoukens. Considering how slowly he recovers from chucking plasma in Sm4sh in direct comparison to especially his Old ST self, he's not going to want to engage us in old-school fireball wars like he would be eager to do against Ken or Guile or Chun-Li in ST, especially since he neither has a Super bar to patiently hold his ground by using Specials & whiffing Medium/High normals (the whiffing normals part is true in SF3, not ST) to build up meter for the high damaging, fireball-war-winning Shinkuu Hadouken that ST New Ryu has, nor the raw quick frame data surrounding his Hadoukens that ST Old Ryu wields. Rest easy in how THIS isn't likely to happen to us, since we're not E. Honda or even Dee Jay, due to our ability to outproduce him, as well as the myriad of defensive options we have here that didn't exist in ST.

He also canNOT use cross-up Air Tatsus here for possibly unblockable hard knockdowns like he can in ST (the Dee Jay match in the above vid shows this, and it's verbally acknowledged as well), because if he tries to come down onto us with Tatsu active, instead of it stopping upon landing on the ground like in ST, he'll continue whirring by, trying to "Attack That Squirrel Jet." Said hard knockdowns aren't actually possible with Tatsus here, since we have DI, Vectoring, and a whole host of other options once we're out of hitstun, many of which didn't exist in ST as well.

While we're on the subject of his Tatsus, DH can duck, crawl, and even DTilt under even True Tatsu, though while DTilt does straight-up beat True Tatsu if timed right and you're facing him, I would not trust DTilt to keep you completely safe if your back was facing him when he started True Tatsu. Charging DSmash is also safe to do under True Tatsu, during which you can unleash your DSmash upon Ryu having passed you by, though it's easier to do this if your back was facing Ryu when you start charging DSmash. However, all that applies ONLY IF he starts up (True) Tatsu from any distance that's not super upclose. If you're not confident about directly challenging his Tatsus in these ways, stick to ducking and crawling.

That's not to say that his fireball game here is garbage, far from it. It's actually pretty good here, even against us, for all versions of his Hadoukens can push away Cans, OHKO Default Gunmen, and either break or shove Clays upwards. It's just not ST great, as shown above, which is good for us canines. Were Sm4sh DH to be in ST against either version of Ryu, we probably would actually be able to compete with him on the fireball front, especially with Mega Gunmen. As he is here in regards to fireballs, we also have this piece of tech to help us out with confronting Hadoukens when our Gunman's KO'd, our Can's absent or out of the way, and our Clay's stuck in the air:
I would like to believe that this is a quirky, yet potentially powerful way to use our crawl, due to the A+B method of inputting Smashes having been around since the Mewtwo patch. You see, we actually maintain our low profile that our crouch & crawl provide us with when we're charging Down Smash without having any in-between animations taking that away from us, provided we're holding either A or B while we're crawling, so that we're 1 button away from activating DSmash. Thankfully, if we forget to hold either A or B before we start crawling, DTilt, Down B, and especially Jab if held have low cooldown, and if the Can's already out, then simply B-holding the Can is the absolute fastest way to have a button held down without putting us in the middle of an attack or shielding (just make sure you're not right next to your Can on the ground, otherwise you're freezing up for a brief moment, open to virtually any attack). 'Course, the risk in trying to lower our profile with charging DSmash is that we receive increased knockback if we get hit during the charging of any Smash Attack. At least if we get caught while crawling, we don't get knocked back AS far, which I WISH was the case in Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike, where getting hit while crouching increases the amount of damage the opponent deals to you.

However, we can lower our profile further with DTilt, once the duck's parallel to the ground with the dog. The most obvious use I've found for this is reliably going under Ryu's Hadoukens when our Gunmen's KO'd, our Can is already out (and NOT blocking off ANY Hadoukens if it's simply lying on the ground), and it's close enough for our Clay to be too slow for us to confidently throw out. We don't need DTilt's lower profile to go under Thoron at all, and I have been able to go under Pikachu's Side 1 with this, once the duck's already parallel to the ground with the dog (His Side 3's low enough to the ground that it can still tag us, I think, but that could use further testing to confirm). DTilt's recovery (7 frames, I think) is quicker than UTilt's and especially FTilt's, but slower than Jab 1's. In terms of execution, so long as you start DTilt early enough, I do believe DTilt-ing under certain attacks to be easier to do than Just Defending (powershielding), due to how long you remain in your lowered profile, making the timing for it more lax than Just Defending.

Being able to DTilt under Hadoukens is REALLY reminding me of 2I/3S/USF4 Yang's QCF+K rolling attack being used to fight fireball spam, and I love it, since I actually mained Yang in all those mentioned fighters. XD We get to keep advancing towards Ryu without risking getting pushed back for blocking Hadoukens too early when our Gunman is KO'd or potentially getting anti-air'd for having our airdodges or stuck-out limbs (NAir, really) baited, and it can work online when there's significant amounts of lag, even on the 3DS. Since our DTilt and Gunmen (especially Down 2) have relatively low cooldown, we COULD make it a possible frame trap by mashing out DSmash afterwards by holding A after DTilt's out or B after Gunman's out and then mashing/holding B/A while holding A/B...

I DO wonder if the DTilt profile lowering tech would be useful in MUs other than Ryu....
Oh, and if he tries to throw out another fireball while the 1st one's still on-screen, he will NOT throw out another one. Personally, it'd be neat if he could do a fake fireball here on command like in his own series as a way to boost his fireball game (He'd recover from it faster than if he were to actually throw out a fireball, so if your opponent was fooled by this, that likely meant a free punish).

Oh oh, and Shakunetsu Hadouken hard knockdown'd relatively close to him in A2 (further away in A3, though) for a short time, which made his okizeme a bit more inflexible to do in comparison to ST's Shakunetsu knocking down the opponent somewhat further out for a longer time.
However, Sm4sh's Shakunetsu will NEVER cause a hard knockdown upclose.


*Cue "The Road (Theme of Ryu)" from the SFA3 OST*
(Well this IS where one of Ken's Intros came from, so how could I resist? X3)
Alpha Series as a whole, in terms of super meter usage. He already can't be like his ST New self, who'd be holding out for a Super, so any tricks he might've had from the Alpha series in regards to his meter are non-existant, so no A3 V-Ism's Custom Combos + Juggles or access to his other supers (Shinkuu Tatsumaki and Shin Shoryuken) or even Valle CCs from A2, which is, as David Sirlin noted in his book, Playing to Win, in the "What Should Be Banned?" chapter:
David Sirlin said:
In the fighting game Street Fighter Alpha 2, there is a bug that allows the player to activate a very damaging move (called “Custom Combo”) against an opponent who is standing up (not crouching). The designers surely intended a standing opponent to be able to crouch and block this move upon seeing it, but if executed correctly, he cannot. It has a huge impact on the way the game is played (standing up is now quite dangerous), but there is still an excellent game left even after this technique is known. At first glance, one might think that attacking is too dangerous because it usually involves standing up. Closer examination shows that the attacker can stick out moves to knock the defender out of his Custom Combo, should he try it. Basically, the bug can be dealt with. This game-changing tactic is referred to by players as the “Valle CC” after its inventor, Alex Valle (more on him later).
There's also no air-blocking here, which was one of the measures taken in the Alpha series to nerf his fireball + uppercut trap that made him so powerful in ST (while air-blocking works against fireballs, it won't activate against his DP if done too close (it will activate if done from far away, though)), alongside Alpha Counters (which do exist here for no meter in the form of meterless Guard Cancels, aka Out of Shield moves (ex. Jump, Up B, USmash, grab, etc.)), overall faster jumping speeds (Sm4sh Ryu seems to have inherited this for the most part, aside from his difficulty in reversing his direction in midair like what most of the cast in Sm4sh can do, which does make sense, since in his series, jumping in any direction is generally a full commitment you have to make), and the introduction of characters like Guy & Rose, who have solid answers to his ST fireball + uppercut trap, whether with reflectors/absorptions (Rose) or ways to move around fireballs and still counterattack (Guy).

There was also Counter Hits where, if you hit someone in the middle of an attack, the person who got hit takes more damage than usual, and if said person was in the air when it happened, then said person gets launched upwards, leaving them open to more damage via juggles. This only really applies in this MU if someone's hit while charging a Smash Attack, and while the damage may not be in the form of percent, it's certainly in the form of increased knockback.

Guard Meters are in Alpha 3, though I'm not sure how good Ryu was at breaking those in A3. I can at least say that I would leave out Shield in Collarbone Breaker, since it doesn't do nearly as much guard damage there as it does here. Perhaps it's during his Custom Combos with V-Ism that he could do it, but he'd probably have to spend the whole bar from the start of the match (you start out every match in A3 with a full super meter) to do it. Outside of that, guard breaks weren't too common in A3, as far as I'm aware.


Oh, and he'll never become Evil Ryu here, so no need to expect USF4's Axe Kick shenanigans or (Alpha 2/3) Akuma-styled teleports or UMVC3's extra speed, combo-ing abilities, and even damage.


Who Sm4sh Ryu COULD be:

ST Ryu, in that he can deal high amounts of damage per hit, especially upclose. ST's damage values are quite high (albeit randomly...), which can help explain why some rounds and even whole matches in ST can end in seconds, due to the sheer amount of damage & stun that seemingly every hit can do, even when those hits are not a part of any legit combo, which normally aren't very long (generally, Jumping Normal --> Standing/Crouching Normal xx Special is about as long as it gets, most of the time. There ARE juggles here & there, but they're not TOO common). If a legit combo does fully connect, expect 25+% of your health minimum to be wiped out, and depending on the Special in question, said combo can end in a hard knockdown, which opens up a chance for the person who scored the knockdown to apply okizeme upon the person who's waking up. If the person who's waking up guesses wrong on the incoming 50/50 mixup that the person applying okizeme selects, even more damage and possibly another knockdown can result. Repeat until either the person waking up guesses right and escapes via options like blocking or a wakeup DP, or the person applying oki successfully depletes the opponent's whole lifebar, whichever happens first.

For a demonstration of the above, take a look at this opening 1st match featuring Damdai, a famous longtime American ST Old Ryu/T.Hawk player, and Shin'ya Ohnuki/Nuki, one of the most famous Japanese SF players in all of fighting game history (He's one of the 5 "Gods" of fighters in Japan, alongside Daigo Umehara, "Dirty" Tokido, Sako, and Haitani), in the EVO 2015 Side Tourney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjjY9IQGU0U
Personally, I'd HIGHLY recommend checking out the whole event. In fact, if you stick around or skip forward to 05:07, you'll see more of ST Old Sagat in action, whom I've once compared 3222 Custom DH to, some time ago, as well as more ST Old Ryu, and even another example of the Ryu VS E. Honda MU (As an ST Fei Long main myself, I feel for ya so much, Miss MillerTime-- no seriously, she's an E. Honda main who did the live commentary for the Side Tourney, and her knowledge, passion, & love for the game was what helped made that Tourney more hype than it already was). Even if it's not directly pertaining to Sm4sh, the high level gameplay on display there could help improve our performances here.

Here in Sm4sh as well, as EVO 2015 shows us, such damage happens upclose. Is Ryu actually capable of taking someone from 0 to KO within a minute? If he catches you in the Weak UTilt Train, he very well could, for once you're at KO percent, he can hit-confirm one of his Weak UTilts and then do Weak UTilt xx True DP for the KO at 90+% or less, depending on the amount of Rage and the stage you're at.

This wouldn't be the 1st time he's had something like this, for he has hit-confirms into his supers in his main series, such as SF4's Linked LPs/LKs xx Punch-drummed Shoryuken xx FADC Ultra 1, and my personal favorite, SF3:2I's Jumping HP/HK --> Crouching MK/HP/LP x2/3 xx MP Shoryuken (F to D to DF) xx Punch-drummed Denjin Hadouken (just QCF, because 1 QCF was already done when you did Shoryuken. Plus, spin the stick while holding a punch button to charge it up faster) --> Repeat from Jumping HP/HK if Denjin fully connects (i.e. The opponent fails to Parry it, since it's unblockable). If he has 2 full bars in 2I, this can be done twice in a row, dealing over 50+% HP worth of damage in 1 go.


While Weak UTilt (aka Close Standing LP in ST) xx True DP is a legit combo in his own series, he can't move forward while constantly using Close Standing LPs in his own series very well, because the amount of horizontal pushback adds up enough to prevent him from looping someone with it, even in the corner (Ryu, rather than the opponent, gets pushed away for this).

How do we escape the Weak UTilt Train if we get caught up in it? Some ideas: DI upwards (& towards him? Not sure about away, since he can chase that....), mash Up 2 if you have it, mash NAir, mash your 2nd jump if you have it.


*Cue Good Fighter (2nd Edit) from the Street Fighter 3: 2nd Impact OST, and grooves along with Squeak Squad!Fighter Kirby, whose standing stance I WISH showed up in Sm4sh upon him taking Ryu's ability*

Street Fighter 3 (New Generation, 2nd Impact, 3rd Strike) Ryu
, if he sticks to only "Parrying" our single hit attacks. He can still FA his way through any single hit attacks he predicts us using against it, so in that sense, he CAN swooce his way through some of our attacks & past our defenses. However, our grabs and multi-hit attacks can blow up FAs that were intended to be used as 3S Parries. In fact, our full list of attacks for beating Focus Attacks outside of grabs (the universial answer for the whole cast) and general dodging are as follows (if I've missed one, let us all know):

  • Default Clays if shot-up (subtract this option if NOT shot-up)
  • Default Cans
  • Zigzag Cans if properly B-Mashed
  • Jab strings as a whole
  • UAir
  • DAir
  • Duck Jump Snag (Up 2)
  • FSmash if close
  • DSmash if Ryu's in front of you
  • USmash if Ryu's close to you and/or above you
  • Technically, Super Duck Jump (Up 3) COULD work, but the below point makes using SDJ for that purpose risky, even when attempting to edgeguard him with it.
DO remember that Ryu can Dash Cancel out of his FA at any time before he throws out the punch, hence the SF4 term "FADC *Insert Attack Name Here*."

With all these options at our disposal, we can dash his hopes of recreating the 2 world famous Daigo Parries as a way to stubbornly swooce past our arsenal. Parries as a whole may have ruined the zonings/lameouts of Remy, Necro, Q (who I mained), Twelve (who I also mained), among others, but it's not fully here in Sm4sh to ruin ours, because his FA has a limitation of tanking only 1 hit, which must be refreshed by Dash Cancelling out of FA before getting to use FA again. It takes time to constantly repeat FAs after DC-ing the previous FA, and the length of time it would take to constantly renew the 1 hit would make those Daigo Parries literally impossible.

*Cues "Good Fighter [bliriant mix]" from the Street Fighter 3: New Generation Original Arrange Album, and keeps on groovin'*
The above point and where on-screen he ideally wants to be at (Closeby, which is quite the shift from his ST self, IMO) are what makes him relatable to his SF3 self, for Parries in SF3 and the myriad of defensive options here are what ruined the idea of Hadoukens as a pure lameout tool like it once used to be in ST (Parrying fireballs in SF3 gave meter to the Parry-er, NOT the person who threw the fireball!). High level 3S Ryu players, such as DavidCue here (https://youtu.be/fFGkVZDT5-I?t=9m50s) (Check out the rest of his matches in this tournament as well, since Cue made it to Grand Finals), much like Alpha 1/2/3 & Sm4sh Ryu players, are going to want IN, which stands in stark contrast to his ST self who wanted you OUT.

I would not be too surprised if some Sm4sh Ryu players such as myself are prone to often "pressing buttons," considering the payoffs he can get for doing so, which is an idea that I stated aloud during the FE Roy MU, though not with the exact phrase, "pressing buttons" (this goes hand in hand with Alpha 3's Counter Hits, btw):
As a dog brought to our attention recently elsewhere, with the recent shield stun increase, many of Roythcina's attacks have become safer on shield than ever before, such as Neutral B & their many A buttons, especially when sweetspotted, much like many of Ryu's A buttons. Thus, frame traps like FTilt (sweetspotted & blocked) --> Jab or DTilt become possible. As an aggressive rushdown canine myself, I take this as a reason to directly challenge Roy's A buttons with our own right then & there (a habit forged from other 2D fighters that rewarded courageous confrontations of thrown-out attacks with Clashes (Guilty Gear), trades, and even outprioritization (ex. Akuma's Raging Demon < Dan's version of it in the Marvel VS series)), rather than shield first & attempt to punish later.
The bolded portion is what I would call "pressing buttons". However, there IS value in NOT "pressing buttons," for some attacks simply have to be respected, namely Ryu's True DP in a number of situations, such as where if he predicts you will "press a button" while you're in range (including when he's "waking up" from being hard knockdown'd), his True DP's invincibility frames on start-up will let him rip right thru many an attack, just like in his own series (which the linked-to matches thus far surely have showcased, and phrases like "Wakeup DP," "Ume-Shoryu/Psychic DP," "Mashing out DP," and more describe this as well). If you yourself predict a True DP attempt from him, unless you have an armored or invincible move of your own, I would not advise trying to challenge a True DP on its startup with your own upclose attack buttons.

After that move's startup, THEN you can go in for the punish, though its low landing lag, much like in his own series, CAN make punishing him while he's landing on the ground surprisingly difficult, since he very well can frame trap you by "mashing out another True DP" upon landing from the 1st True DP if you're late on the punish. If you're not confident in landing a punish on the few landing frames he has after that move, you can make like a Vampire Savior character and use a high-reaching grounded attack or an aerial (upclose NAir for example) while he himself is in the air. This is an occasion where using our many defensive options would be preferable (Our Up 2 may come out frame 1, but it has no invincibility on startup).

Oh, and his inputted versions of his Specials (excluding FAs) CAN be thought of as his EX moves from the SF3 series, except they require NO portions of meter to perform whatsoever, though I'll refer to them as True Specials here. Expect True DP to show up against you if 1. You're at 90+% (or less, depending on the stage and the amount of Rage Ryu has), 2. he predicts you coming at him with an attack that would normally wreck his FA(DC), and 3. You're in the middle of juggling him, and he's looking to mash his way out of it.

Since I DID underline the safety of Ryu's A buttons on block above, let's address it. This is a 4th occasion where you can expect a True DP, since he may sense you trying to "press a button" upon finally recovering from the shield stun, so do be wary of where he is and what he's doing at that point. If he's in the middle of doing anything that can prevent him from immediately performing a True DP (such as using some other attack), THEN you can risk "pressing buttons". Otherwise keep a close eye on him while hoping that your arsenal's nearby and your shield's big enough to protect you if you suspect that he's fishing for it.


Crouching MK (Strong DTilt) xx (Shakunetsu) Hadouken is more safe on block than ever, which personally pleases me, since this was a genuinely safe blockstring that did decent damage if it actually hit in his own series, so to see that being true here is definitely what I consider being faithful to the source material.

Oh oh, and his A buttons are generally faster than ours (especially his Light Jab 1 (2 frames~) & Tilts, and his 4 frame NAir), but we canines have more range on our A buttons than he does, especially on our FAir. Thus, if we're looking to engage him head-on like a 3S character, we should make like 3S Chun-Li and keep him at a range (Her Crouching MK, Standing/Back HP, and Jumping MK were very good at this).

*Cue "Iron Eyes" from the Street Fighter EX 3 OST*

EX series Ryu, who, by using 1 bar of meter, can use an unblockable Guard Break attack to blow up excessive/predictable blocking that's bolstered by grabs constantly being teched successfully (as in, if both players try to grab each other, NO ONE gets the grab, though meter is awarded to both players. Come to think of it, why doesn't Sm4sh let you tech normal grabs like what even Guilty Gear does? For sure, command grabs like Robin's Nosferatu & Bowser's Side 1 should remain as untechable as Zangief's Spinning Piledriver. :confused:), as well as a powerful okizeme option to use against someone's wakeup, and put the opponent into a vulnerable stun state that allows him to follow up with whatever high damaging legit combo he wants (PS1 version of EX2+'s Trial --> Expert Mode highlights at least 1 such punish combo: Guard Break --> Jumping Heavy Kick --> Standing Light Punch --> Shoryuken).
If the opponent is hit by Guard Break on the ground, he'll be dizzied on the ground, and if it hits in the air, the opponent will be hanging out in the air for quite a while.

In Sm4sh Ryu's case, the equivalent of the Guard Break would be the Collerbone Shield Breaker (Strong FTilt) and LVL 3 Focus Attack, both of which can be used withOUT needing any meter. While the LVL 3 hit on the ground will force a crumple state, said hit in the air will leave the opponent paralyzed midair before reeling backwards (the distance of which, at high enough percents, CAN be enough to be treated as a KO move). If he predicts that you're going to be in your shield at a certain point, he may use these moves to break it.

Oh, and thankfully for us, Ryu canNOT use Excel against our advances or to make his own advances safe-ish by ripping through our attacks with its startup invincibility, because, again, no super meter. Oh oh, and as noted earlier:
EX series (Its Guard Break attack in Sm4sh are both the Collarbone Shield Breaker (Strong FTilt) & LVL 3 Focus Attack, plus the stages in the whole EX series do NOT have permanent corners, so locking down folks there isn't as easy as it would be in the rest of his series)
The closest we can get to having corners in a legal stage in the Wii U version is Delfino (3DS is Arena Ferox), and that stage might be Paragon Ruleset'd out of play, depending on which tournament you're in, so we might be able to breathe easy here.


Tatsunoko Vs Capcom:Ultimate All-Stars Ryu
*Cue "Daigo Temple (Moonlight)" from that game's OST*, in that his Air FADC can serve as an armored airdash (for 1 hit). However, NO ONE's air dash in TVC is armored, and the giants (Gold Lightan & PTX-40A) canNOT air dash, yet they have overall hyper armor except for very specific attacks (Tekkaman Blade's QCF+B or C says hi).
He can also use Hadouken & Shoryuken in the air, both of which he's known for doing in TVC and the Marvel VS series.
However, he canNOT immediately do Any Aerial xx Special upon landing Any Aerial (TBH, this gave me "Profound sadness! DX" on Day 1 of his Sm4sh appearance). If he's going to follow up from an aerial, he's going to have to link into it, and depending on percents & DI directions, it won't be guaranteed.
The fact that he can do 1st jump FAir --> 2nd jump FAir DOES make it reminiscient of Melty Blood: Actress Again: Current Code & Wonderful World's air combos, except he canNOT immediately follow up the 2nd FAir with an air grab that hard knockdowns into guaranteed okizeme like what a Melty Blood character can do.
Oh, and of course, NO Baroques or Mega Crashes or Delayed/Team Hyper Combos.



Also mentioned earlier on this page:
CVS2 with K-Groove (It featured Running (the stopping of which here is NOT instantaneous), Rage (no meters here in Sm4sh, just look at percents), Just Defends (ground only in Sm4sh, though Air JDs are possible as well in CVS2), Small Jumps, and Safe Falling (aka teching), all of which ARE here in Sm4sh, aside from Supers when the Rage meter's filled up)
So with all that history in mind, how exactly DO we fight Sm4sh Ryu?

First off, make like ST Old Sagat and keep him OUT. We're the ones who can do the fireball + uppercut trap to him, since we're closer to the ST days of lameouts than he is, especially if we get to run the 3123 deck against him. However, it's his damage output per hit that's closer to ST levels than ours is, especially upclose.

While we outrange him, we don't want him to be so close that he can reliably land Jab 1 or Weak/Strong DTilt/UTilt xx Specials, since that's where a chunk of his damage is going to come from on the ground at low percents, especially if his aerials get involved for the juggles.

There ARE more defensive options here than there was in ST, but despite those, I don't believe Ryu has thee quality answers he used to have (Parries, Air Dashes, Air Blocking, etc.), nor what some of the cast here have (ex. Jr, Olimar, Sonic), especially without a super meter, so he'll have to work harder at breaking into our fortress than he would in his own series post-ST.

Can Ryu Tick Throw us here? In ST, yes, for he did so after the Dee Jay player blocked the Air Tatsu in the above match vid, which was verbally noted.
In Sm4sh? While shield stun has increased dramatically for him in the 1.1.1/2 patch, I've... yet to test this. If he can... well, at least none of his throws can KO at reasonable percents, as far as I'm aware, but his BThrow does the most damage out of the 4, making him like Jr in this way.


As for edgeguarding him, refer to the above anti-FADC list if he tries using FA during his recovery. His Tatsu can swat away Cans & Clays if improperly aimed, though he's wide open from above & below him. For so long as he holds on to his 2nd jump, he'll stick around for quite a while, since every hit you land on him will regenerate his Tatsu & FADC. His DP CAN be challenged, though as stated earlier, doing so in front of his face (as in, you're on the same horizontal plane as him) with your own body is not recommended, for it could be the invincible True DP. While his horizontal recovery distance is quite far, it's his vertical distance that's lacking, and that's where he'll get gimped, especially if you can snipe his 2nd jump.

Recovering against him? As noted earlier, he won't want to go too vertically deep against us, but he does have a DAir spike (Our UAir CAN challenge this), as well as BAir and even FAir. His UAir will KO us at high enough percents (100+%). Up 2 will be quite helpful here if we have it, especially if we stick out a Can or Gunman beforehand. If his True DP timing is on-point.... I'm afraid we might not have too many options without a wall.


His struggle with breaking in becomes even harder with Customs ON....

Custom Loadouts:

*Cue SF3: 2nd Impact's Character Select Theme, and grooves to it while imagining both DH & Ryu with very dynamic poses, reminiscent of how CVS2's cast looks when you select your characters after picking the C/A/P Grooves*
<2I Announcer> "Select your character."
*Ryu & Duck Hunt are selected*
<2I Announcer> "Select your Custom Sets."
*While the system IMMEDIATELY locks in 1111 for Ryu, the cursors over at DH's side of the screen selects, from the order of Neutral-Side-Up-Down, 3-1-2-3, the appearance of which seems inspired by Gradius 3's Edit Mode*

From here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...discussion-revamp-sheik.406307/#post-19447503

Splooshi Splashy said:
If DH gets to put on Customs, expect 3121 or 3122.

Zigzag Can is his anti-air that, if mashed & positioned well, can rack up 20+% in 1 go.

Duck Jump Snag is practically our DP, minus the invincibility. He loses recovery distance if he runs this, so he'll want to be at a walled Omega stage (his best stage, btw) to be able to wall-jump his way back to the stage. This will also challenge our upclose aerial edgeguards, and its multi-hits will body FAs.

Quick Draw Aces will basically be a faster Clay in terms of distant poking. So long as you don't KO these Gunmen, he'll be able to play footsies as well as you can. Since you have more anti-Gunmen abilities than some other characters, DHes may pick this to have a usable Gunmen whose shots will likely come out before getting KO'd.
Zigzag Can challenges FA, if you mash B after the first collision. Otherwise, he can FADC in either direction to escape, depending on where the Can was coming from when the 1st hit happened. Can came from the right to go left, when the 1st hit happened? FADC to the right to avoid the incoming left origin going right. FADC-ing to the left at this point would not be a good idea, since the Can's going to be coming towards Ryu from the left.
Looking back at it, I think picking Down 3 (Mega Gunmen) against him might be worth considering as well, since it can guard us against all Hadouken types (even the red Shakunetsus) multiple times before getting KO'd, and if it sticks around long enough, our Guardian will get to fire back at him. Sure, we lose a distant poking/footsies tool that can help deal with FADCs, but we give him a reason to approach us, especially if we stand our ground behind our Guardian. Whether Down 3 or Down 2 or even Down 1 will be the Gunmen of choice here is what I'm wondering about as well....
Stage Picks: We Doggies will NOT want to go to Delfino, Halberd, Dream Land 64, or even T&C, due to their low ceilings, which Weak UTilt x?? xx True DP thrives on. The higher the ceiling, the more we can contain the KO power of his True DP & the setups into it. While Delfino's & Halberd's legal standings have been in doubt since Paragon, if those 2 stages aren't permitted, then DL64 becomes one of the biggest locations for doing everything you can to NOT go there, since not only is there a low ceiling for boosting True DP's KO power, but the platforms reduce the recovery time of his True DP, which is already quite low upon landing as is. Battlefield & Miiverse may have higher ceilings, but its platforms still help Ryu out, so those 2 stages would be next on the to-be-concerned-with list.

Walled Omegas could be one of the stages of choice for us, due to our wall-jumps and his lack of them, plus he won't have platforms to help him traverse our arsenal with.
Even thee Duck Hunt stage might be worth our while if we can handle the stage itself disrupting our projectiles, as well as doing what we can to avoid getting True Shoryuken'd at the big tree on the left.

Castle Siege, of course, would help him, despite even his Shakunetsu Hadoukens getting eaten by the statues, since our arsenal is hurt more by them than his Hadoukens are.

Smashville COULD be okay for either of us, so long as we can use the 1 platform there to our advantage more than he does.


Ratios:


WithOUT Customs: +1 DH's favor if he can keep him out. 0 or even -1 for DH if Ryu gets in & stays in. Subtract 1 point overall for DH if the battle takes place at low ceiling stages (worst case is -2 by this logic).

WITH Customs: Add 1 point for DH in all the above score spots. From left to right, that would be +2, 1, 0, -1. Ryu's stuck with 1111, while we gain 3123 or 3122 or even 3121.
 
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HoodedAltair

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Ryu vs DH is.....interesting to say the least. As mentioned, DH would want to stay far, and Ryu close...meaning stage choice inherently gives one character more of an edge over the other. While duck hunt would be great for duck hunt, battlefield would be amazing for Ryu. The problem with duck hunts keep away game is that you cannot avoid close range interaction. There will be a point where the duck hunt will be forced to a ledge or corner and where more specials will not be viable. Ryu does have to approach in the sense of closing space, but once Ryu is in that space, it's a game of footsies no matter how you slide it. The scary thing for duck hunt is getting hit. If Ryu lands a combo starter on you, you take 30%+ or get combo'd to death.

With this in mind, DH's projectile game must be strong and close range game needs to consist of 0 habits and good mixups. Having this be a preliminary attribute to the DH player means Ryu wins close encounters more than duck hunt due to his fast tilts, disjoined uair, grounded anti-airs, Hdtilt and Wftilt for pokes and so on. What I can not stress enough is how amazing Ryu's fair is for this MU. Wispy, you say Ryu doesn't want to trade, which I heavily disagree with. Ryun dishes out insane damage on all of his aerials making them extremely viable for intercepting DH. Fair will straight up beat DH's projectiles (unless can explodes at same time) and the hitbox being so big and the move doing 15% damage means the DH needs to be aware of this option and shield accordingly.

This MU cannot be +1 for DH! That's simply not feasible. Relying on the duck hunt having "mixups" and good projectile game does not excuse Ryu's inherently better close range game, combo game, damage output, kill confirms, weight class and so on.

A projectile wall is not unbeatable, especially duck hunts with maneuvering. My point is there is no way in hell a DH can play a game on one of the starters without avoiding confrontation at medium to close range where Ryu excels.

Another BIG point is that Ryu does not at all rely on reads for his kills. he has a frame 2 tilt and jab, and frame 3 tilt that all kill confirm into shoryuken. These DO NOT require reads. If a player whiffs, mispaces, or makes any sort of mistake resulting in end lag, Ryu will punish it with these options easily. Alternatively, DH struggles with killing and Ryu being 17th heaviest in the games with a move that can even save him 13% longer horizontally, DH is looking at a tough time getting the kill.

The point of bad recoveries goes both ways....but even worse for duck hunt having a very slow and exploitable recovery. Having no hitbox and predetermined speed means easy pickings for any character edge guarding him. Ryun on the other hand, can make it back from pretty much anywhere with a jump. DH does have a can so one could hit him with that when the Ryu inevitably chooses to tatsu first at a distance but the fact of the matter is that is not full proof by any means and doesn't even kill particularly well at high percents with good DI.
 

Emblem Lord

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How does DHD kill without taking a hardcore risk or a great read?

Like...Ryu is killing at 80 consistnetly. DHD killing at what? 130%

How is this DH's advantage?

Anyway if any DH's on the East Coast of the US wanna train with me, lemme know.
 

HoodedAltair

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How does DHD kill without taking a hardcore risk or a great read?

Like...Ryu is killing at 80 consistnetly. DHD killing at what? 130%

How is this DH's advantage?

Anyway if any DH's on the East Coast of the US wanna train with me, lemme know.
Lol stop whoring yourself out ;)
 

WispBae

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After reading the inputs from the Ryu mains, I'd call this MU probably -1 for Doggy, seeing how easily he can get KO'd and how rage works against the dog. The fact that he can still wall them out fairly well means the MU is doable, but you'll have to just play surgically when looking for the KO or don't fish.

Alright! Onto Link!


This is way better than an actual picture of Link. No I'm not sorry.

:4duckhunt:VS:4link:
PROS! (For Doggy!)

  • Doggy is much more mobile than Lank.
  • Gunmen are great for stopping camping.
  • Link's recovery is very exploitable.
CONS! (For Doggy!)
  • Lonk has much better KO moves, even in his tilts.
  • Bombs are still annoying.
  • Gale Boomerang messes with Trick Shot.
Ah the hero of For Glory...

Another really underrated character honestly. FG gives him a bad rep, and he's much better in this game compared to all his other iterations (besides Project M). This is definitely the best version of Link, and he has much more power in his sword.

On Doggy's side, Gunmen is great at stopping camping and rogue projectiles. To stop camping, set one up while in mid-air and hold shield in front of it to protect it. This will help with boomerang and bomb happy Lenks, With the fairy boy also being a bit on the sluggish side and with a lower jump, Clay Pigeon harassment can be good while retreating, though as always, you gotta be careful with the lag, ESPECIALLY since Lynk's dash attack is now a KO move. Trick Shot can be decent in this MU as well, but a bit harder to use because of the windbox on Gale Boomerang and it's ability to whack the can away. Setting it up in the neutral may be a bit harder unless you are trying send it over Lunk's head. Being able to out run and poke at him is very helpful against slower characters also. So getting away from Link shouldn't ever really be a huge issue.

On Link's side, he has lots of KO power. Tilts, smashes, and aerials all KO (some faster than other, but regardless they do). Even his Arrows will KO at a certain point. With him being a bit heavier as well, he will be able to use Rage effectively, making his presence on stage even more annoying at high percents. He can't outcamp us, but impatient doggies wil have a hard time holding back the urge to run up to him if he tries to out chip damage them. Bombs are still as versatile for set-ups on Doggy, so mind your positioning of them as they can lead into his U-Air. Off stage, he does better than us slightly, but we're both pretty harrassable when we lack ground beneath our feet, us with Trick Shot and him with Bombs and Dair.

I'd give Doggy a -1 at first glance in this MU, given Link's KO potential. Poking away at him with gunmen and can is the way to go, and lure him into an unsafe move when he approaches. Don't challenge him in mid-air unless you know you'll win, that sword hits pretty hard.
 

TheWorstMuppet

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I'd say the match-up is -1 to da dawg as well. I don't think we can outcamp this one seeing as boomerang, bombs and arrows shred our stuff and I don't fancy taking Link up close neither. I think it's slightly easier to get some things done compared to his cartoon counterpart (like getting back onstage or avoiding spammage) but still. It ain't a match-up I'm fond of, no siree.
 

[SKS] Yung Lamppost

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I also feel like this match-up is a -1 for DH. Link and his projectiles bear similarities to Megaman in how they just plow through ours. This makes it hard to stay back and play a defensive game based around your setups. Since we have to be on the offense more we then have to deal with his strength which is a pain. So either way I feel like we're playing from behind.
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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Match Vid References:

CoMo4 [11] - (Link) vs Salty Dog (Duck Hunt) - Smash 4 Customs (Despite the word Customs being there, Link's running 1111 and DH's running 1111 for all rounds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knhYJSjkr9k

SIM 2015 - Purner (Duck Hunt) vs Sinogara (WFT/Link) (More defaults)
https://youtu.be/2VTUcQaEZj4?t=4m45s

RGCI Senpai(Fox,Link,Ness) vs Koci(Duckhunt) Round 1 (Senpai's running 12?? and Koci's running 1111. 1 match only. Some NSFW E-Sports UNfriendly language near the end of this match. :( )
https://youtu.be/19B3SqJq1KQ?t=7m33s


Nice to see that Pikachu style again, now featuring Rapidash of the Blue Flames. :D In exchange, I shall raise you an awesome scene from Ryex-617, one of my favorite artists in all of dA thus far, featuring said artist's genuine OC, Ryex, dressed as Link:
http://ryex-617.deviantart.com/art/The-Legend-of-OOH-CUCCO-473664947

Oh, would I LOVE to make use of Cuccos inside a dungeon in that series. I'd also really want to play as thee Ryex here. I just hope the baddies don't go picking on Cuccos and then having their legions chasing me around like they would in Hyrule Warriors... >_< Them coming at me in the Twilight Princess or even Majora's Mask maps is... DX
Huge shout-outs to Ryex-617 from dA. This may be from a little over a year ago, but it's certainly one of my favorite art pieces from him. I'd highly recommend checking out his beautiful artwork on dA (especially his (non)coloured pics from this very year, though I myself am down with his artwork from the previous 2 years as well :>), for they have rich imagery that lend themselves to many a plot bunny. I myself have commented on a few of his pics, and it'll likely be pretty obvious when you find which ones I did comment on, if you look for my old avy and big walls of texts. XP



Link's Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link


*Cue "The Wilds" from the Live A Live OST*


Anyways, let us begin with the obvious: Get ready for a Wild West Shootout, this side of a Touhou 2D fighter match. Thankfully, we're not the likes of :4bowser:, :4ganondorf:, or :4dedede:, so we can at least rejoice in our ability to actually engage him here. I'll tell you right now, if he thinks that he's going to get away with the "For Glory Link ROB" style that once riled up LoF|False some time ago (No, I'm not sharing it here, despite its comedic value, because of its NSFW E-Sports UNfriendly language being even worse than in one of the shared match vids above D: ), he's got another thing coming, for our Gunmen can cleanly tank any part of his inventory themselves, as well as Cans and Clays. While our Can's the most potentially self-destructive option of the 3, at least our Clays will be able to help block off as much of his inventory as our Gunmen are able to, most notably when our Gunmen are KO'd and our Can is nowhere nearby.

However, there's 1 component of Link's inventory that is sometimes neglected via the constant pressing of attack buttons, but it's actually such a useful way for him to come at us, that this is truly why I believe that we can't simply lame him out like we would against some others, and it's also why I believe he's a frequently occurring counterpick idea against us:

Enter the Hylian Shield! It is one of his KEY tools in approaching us. He'll need to put much trust in it to courageously walk, not run, up to a Clay (if thrown upclose enough for us to NOT be able to shoot it up, and even then, the shoot-ups CAN be blocked by this), Gunmen's Gunshots, and even improperly-B-pressed Cans without taking damage, especially the Clay & Gunmen. Toon Link's handheld Shield can work this way as well, but he can't walk towards us with it, since he moves it away from in front of him when he walks. However, he'll also need to avoid recklessly pressing buttons if he wants the Hylian Shield to work, since it won't actively block off our shots for him if he's in the middle of an attack. It'll also be active when both Links are crouching. If he succeeds in properly using the Hylian Shield, he'll likely be getting in on us on his terms while getting to show off the Triforce of Courage. Without this part of his inventory, he's liable to getting either rushed down by us and our cover fire, or even getting lamed out by us. He can try to make like Roythcina and cleave through our arsenal with the Master Sword, but his general attack speed with it isn't as fast as theirs with their blades, so his mileage may vary.

Generally, per hit, Link deals more damage & knockback than DH, and he KOs sooner than him too, due to DH being lighter than him and Lonk having more reliable KO moves than DH (even his Dash Attack, which doesn't KO AS early as it used to last year). Thankfully, we have the movement speed to both outrun & chase him. Our melee attack speed, both on the ground and in the air, is generally faster than his as well. However, the Master Sword generally outranges us on the ground (Our BAir and especially FAir can compete with that, making that one of our best friends here) and in the air (Lonk's UAir & DAir in particular, though our FAir can compete with his FAir), and his Hookshot range (both ZAir (hits twice if done upclose) & grab (He gets more payoffs from it than we do, including an UThrow that KOs sooner than ours does)) exceeds our grab range as well, so we'll have to swooce our way in with our arsenal and mobility speed if we're going to make use of our faster buttons. As noted earlier, a Link that's courageous enough to not recklessly press buttons against our arsenal is going to make getting in on him on our terms more challenging, though as an aggressive rushdown doggie, it's a challenge I'm willing to engage him in, IF he's proven to me that he can get in on me, since the burden of adaptation will then fall on us canines to be able to fight upclose. If we indeed can adapt to that, then the Wild West Shootout might be a formality that precedes the slugfest, which carries shades of the Shulk MU, given their slow-ish attack speeds and longer melee ranges.

He has a juggle-breaking 7 frame NAir, which is 1 frame slower than our NAir, though its range exceeds ours. This is complimented by him having the 3rd fastest fastfall speed out of everyone, with only Fox & King Dedede exceeding him in this department. Thus, fastfall NAir is a genuine approach option for him, as well as fastfall ZAir. Said fastfall speed is what makes intercepting him when he's trying to land onto the stage a bit trickier than it would be against others. Oh, and he can simultaneously drop a bomb while ZAiring. He may also throw a bomb upwards, which is something Peach might do with her Turnips, as a way to have a form of cover fire, akin to Guilty Gear Anji Mito's post-blocked Butterflies.

Gimping Lonk is definitely possible, though not as easily as Doc & Mac, given his 3rd fastest fastfall speed and his good-ranged aerials (including his Up 1 if you're not directly above or below him. Oh, and he can mix up his Up 1 use a bit by holding down while it's active to purposefully not snap the ledge if he suspects you of practically hovering over the ledge). The biggest thing to note is whether or not he's got a bomb out, since if it explodes in his hands during his Up 1, he'll get hit out of it upwards, allowing him to use Up 1 again to boost his recovery distance. Generally, if you can snipe his 2nd jump and he doesn't have a bomb in his hands, you'll seal the KO. The other big thing to note here is that like the Samuses & Lucas, his Hookshot can allow him to snap onto the ledge from a distance. Said distance is further than Toon Link's, much like it is for ZAir & grab, so he may opt for this instead of Up B (especially if he's running the recently buffed-in-KO-power Up 2).

As for defending against his edgeguards, while he'll want to go off-stage against us with his ranged, lingering aerials (most notably NAir and FAir), he'll need to be wary of fastfalling too far down, for his recovery generally cannot sustain reckless fastfalling like what Triple D can handle. Pre-emptive UAirs and FAirs might be worth throwing out in anticipation of his edgeguarding attempts, given their speed and range. He might want to have a bomb in his hands to help him out here, though unless its Meteor, he won't be able to directly take you down with it by itself (it sets up into KO moves like FAir & UAir & DAir). Luckily, we can steal the bomb with a properly timed aerial or airdodge of our own, which can also be useful for making headway in the Wild West Shootout. Thankfully, the bomb exploding in our mouth isn't going to have as drastic of a consequence as Mechakoopas would, unless its Meteor Bomb.


*Cue "Difficult Fight" from the Live A Live OST*

Custom Loadouts:
As for plain ol' Link, he'll likely run 3211 or 3221 or 3213 or 3223 (I myself would run this, despite having horrendous recovery distances).
I might also consider running Side 3, Ripping Boomerang, in place of Side 2 in the quoted decks.
Neutral 3, Quickdraw Bow, pierces through our entire arsenal (even when merely tapped!), plus it charges up the fastest out of the 3. Its range is the shortest of the 3 (tapped is 1/4 of FD, and charged is 1/2 of FD), and its damage, even when fully charged, is the lowest of the 3. Neutral 1 has more KO power than this, so this isn't exactly going to be a KO move at 100+%. Short Hop Neutral 3 can be potent as an approach move, since its arc is as straight-forward as his ZAir, and its recovery time when short-hopped is rather short as well. If tapped, it won't break Clays, but if charged, it will break them.

Side 2, Boomerang, is the classic N64 & Melee Boomerang that reaches about 1/2 of FD with a held input and 5/8 of FD with a Smash input. No funky wind pushes on the way back, but in its place is more damage, higher overall speed (start up, recovery, and even movement speed), and the ability to hit us on the way back. Our entire arsenal will still block off this move, so it's not exactly going to change this particular aspect of the MU too much, aside from being able to throw out faster-moving Boomerangs more often. It's probably one of the most fairly balanced Custom Specials out of them all, so kudos to Nintendo for bringing this move back as it is.

Side 3, Ripping Boomerang, has the shortest range (1/4 of FD if held before using, 1/3 of FD if Smash inputted) and the longest startup of the 3 Boomerangs, but as its name would indicate, it rips through our entire arsenal. Strangely, it's weak enough that default Clays can survive it?? Like with Mega Man's Shadow Blade, Ripping can be used for providing quite the cover fire for his melee attacks, and like Swordfighter's Chakram, he can potentially land his KO moves while it's active.

Up 2, Shocking Spin, got buffed this patch in terms of damage, which might be enough to make some of them dare run it, especially since electrical elements gained much safety from this patch's shield stun increase as well (Pikachu & Robin can attest to this). However, the vertical distance of Up 2 is as poor as it was for his default Up 1 in the N64 days, effectively nerfing his recovery range. In exchange, it has more KO power than Up 1, even without any charge (with it, it's even higher, so if your shield breaks somehow....). You'll likely see this move paired with either default or Giant Bombs. I myself would risk running this now. Sure I may not get to go very far for the edgeguards, but that's what the next move's for, as much of a bad idea as it would be to pair this move with the next move:

Down 3, Meteor Bomb, will spike you, making it one of the longest-ranged spikes in all of Sm4sh. It will never launch anyone upwards, only downwards, which makes the "hold-onto-bomb-during-recovery-to-reuse-UpB" trick fail for anyone who's holding onto a Meteor Bomb. All of his bombs can get blocked off by DH's entire arsenal, even Giants, so it might be up to preference which one we'll likely see. If paired with Up 2, then he will be as bad at recovering as the likes of Default Doc and even Little Mac, hence my hesitancy in pairing Up 2 & Down 3 together. If you see this move, expect either Up 1 or Up 3 to be paired with it.
DH gets to run 3123 or 3113
I'd also suggest 3121 or 3111 or even 3122 or 3112. I personally would run 3123 for a certain Guardian against any of his bombs, though we canines would likely run 3113 or 3121 or 3111.

Zigzag Can is able to capitalize on his heavy weight, which means being able to rack up 20+% in 1 go will be easier to do against him than some others. If it collides with any part of Link's inventory, it generally won't explode on us, making it safer to use as a footsies tool, and it moves fast enough to shark him in the air.

Duck Jump Snag, as less potent the shield stun changes have made its OoS power in this patch, is still one of our absolute fastest escape moves, and it certainly outspeeds his juggle-breaking options. However, it will NOT protect us against Meteor Bombs at all, and if we don't have a wall-jump left if it hits us out of our 2nd jump, that might be it for our stock. While Super Duck Jump can help us out here, I wouldn't expect to be able to blow back Link during his Up B moves, due to his Sword being able to horizontally reach us on Frame 8 (Up 1 & 2) and Up 3 giving him greater overall recovery distance & speed.

Mega Gunmen will protect us against his Bombs (even Giants), Boomerangs (Except Ripping), and Arrows (Except Quickdraw). The ()'d moves except for Giant all pierce through Megas, along with his ZAir. Its looming wrath will help support Zigzag's air-sharking pressure.

(On second thought, wouldn't Down 2 or even Default be better ideas if Lonk runs both Quickdraw and Ripping together?)

He's usually not fast enough to warrant Down 2, though if we suspect that he'll frequently press buttons and/or run Neutral 3 & Side 3, Down 2 might very well be worth our while, since we'll have a more usable shot from them, even if it may get blocked off by the Hylian Shield. As for Default, while it doesn't fire as quickly as Down 2, it's quicker at firing than Down 3, and its range is greater than Down 2's as well.


Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: 0 even for both sides at the start (I.E. the Wild West Shootout phase). -1 for DH if Link gets in on his terms. +1 for DH if we get in on Link on our own terms.


WITH Customs: 0 even for both sides as well. Much like withOUT Customs, -1 for DH if Link gets in on his terms, and +1 for DH if we get in on Link on our own terms. While Mega Gunmen has been a powerful answer to some of our other adversaries, the Hero of Hyrule does actually gain some options for dealing with it. Zigzag gets to join us in the Wild West Shootout, and while we gain DJS as a quick Wakeup DP, Meteor Bomb can challenge it from a distance.
 
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WispBae

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Alright! Week 16! Whatcha guys feeling?

:4charizard::4marth::4wiifit::4zelda::4palutena::4lucina::4robinm:/:4robinf::4shulk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4falco::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4mewtwo:

I'm still all for Palutena and Robin discussion, or if not Robin, maybe Wii Fit or Falco. Thoughts?
 

[SKS] Yung Lamppost

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I would suggest Robin and Dr. Mario as Dr. Mario's getting more popular and Robin has always been an interesting match-up
 

TheWorstMuppet

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Whoops! I'm just coming back to this now!

I'd quite like to look at the Wii Fit Trainer Match-Up, cause that would be fun. The only Wii-Fit Trainer I know plays her real defensively so it would be cool to see how to respond to that.

And yeah, Robins a good shout too! Definitely don't fight Robin enough, but it's a real interesting match up. Also, WispBae knows the character well!

But I'm down for whoever!

!
 
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WispBae

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Alright, I'll just open up discussion for Robin now. Sorry I haven't been too active as of late, just been dealing with emotional issues on my end as of late, I'll try to do a write up on how the MU works later. Here's our picture bookmark. We'll choose the second character later.

Pink Bunny Robin is not amused with your antics.
 
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WispBae

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:4duckhunt:VS:4robinf:
PROS! (For Doggy)
  • Much more agile than Robin (speed and air mobility).
  • Gunmen go through all of her projectiles, as well as block a good amount of them.
  • Her recovery can be pressured from the top safely (makes dair attempts and nair gimps easier).
CONS! (For Doggy)
  • Levin Sword outranges most of Doggy's moves and hits ridiculously hard.
  • Thoron is a fantastic anti camping tool and a good finisher.
  • Nosferatu, 4 levels of Thunder and the limited usage system on Robin's move make her a master of mix-ups.
<3 The actual waifu (behind Cloud), the one I'm proud to call my other main.

Trying to not be biased, if Robin had a faster grab and faster movement, she would seriously be top 10. She hits hard, has lots of tricksies, and can rack up burst damage just as quickly as our doggo. Unfortunately, her being the slowest in the game plagues her, and is our saving grace.

On Doggy's side, his movement is a huge factor. While a good projectile game means Robin has a decent time dealing with campers, she still has to approach slightly against projectiles, due only to the fact that she is so slow and has to approach if she hopes to get an early KO. Abuse that speed, make her run for ya and love those reverse gunmen and trick shot traps.

Gunmen always make a nice shield, and will block Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder and Arcfire (note Arcfire will still activate on gunmen and on shield, so just stay away from that nonsense. Approaching with gunmen and forcing options on Robin is also very nice too, making her choose an option of shielding, jumping or rolling. Keeping pressure on a Robin charging Thunder is very important, due to the fact that Thunder only properly charges from level to level, rather than by small increments (charging for split seconds without going from thunder > elthunder means you will never charge it, unlike Samus' Charge Shot and Lucario's Aura Sphere).

Her recovery is good vertically and horizontally, but lacks a hitbox on her body, making it safe to pressure from above. Make note if they like to recover low, and abuse the hell out of it. Just be sure not to be under Robin, Elwind does spike and even when it doesn't, its offstage pressure is very good and can even stage spike.

Another important note in this MU is the limited usage of the tomes. The Levin sword comes back very fast, but all the tomes take 10+ seconds to reappear, so if you see Arcfire or Thunder low, keep it in mind that the option is almost gone. If you see Elwind gone, be sure to pressure them offstage, you may get a lucky gimp. Her Up-B uses two charges of Elwind, so it's safe to say being offstage is a no-no for Robin.

On Robin's side, she hits like a truck. Like, really really hard.

Like, REALLY HARD, "KO you at 90% with a little rage with a Fair" hard. Trades are not something you want to be doing with Robin at any time, unless you know she can only use the bronze sword. Fair, U-Air, Bair all KO, as well as both her jabs, Arcthunder and Thoron all KO'ing reliably. Stay away unless you can get free, safe damage off a string.

Thoron pierces through all projectiles Doggy has, so if she has the option ready, you have to play much more carefully, considering it KO's. Thankfully, she can't reliably camp with it either, meaning once it's gone, you have time to (hopefully) build up your pressure on her again.

Becoming predictable is really the biggest thing Robin capitalizes on. Since she needs so little to get damage and KO, once there is a habit noticed, things get much harder as you could potentially take 30% from two moves, just as a start (Fair into fair, for example, is true at low percents, arcthunder into grab into d-throw into jab, etc).

I'd give this MU a +1 for Robin. She get's KO's very easily, but due to how slow she is (as well as her grab), things get complicated for her with good zoners that can juke her. You gotta treat this MU like Ganon, don't take unnecessary trades and be sure to mix things up, it doesn't take much for her to proc her killing edge, but she does have to get in eventually.

(See what I did there? See what I-- nevermind...)
 

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
This MU is probably either even or slightly in Robin's favor. From afar, Duck Hunt probably has the advantage, as not only can you throw out way more projectiles than Robin can, but they also cancel out Robin's projectiles as well (just be careful not to get hit by a Thoron; or better yet, don't let Robin charge up a Thoron at all). In addition, Robin's abysmal speed means that actually getting past Duck Hunt's projectile wall is extremely difficult. However, if Robin does get in, he goes to town on Duck Hunt. Robin kills Duck Hunt really early with any of his aerials. Plus, if Duck Hunt ever gets offstage, you'll be hard pressed to get back on. Duck Hunt's complete vulnerability during his recovery, along with how slow his recovery moves, means Robin has plenty of time to go for a nair gimp at low percents or just close out the stock entirely with a fair at higher percents.

tl;dr This MU is pretty even. Duck Hunt does well if he can keep Robin away, while Robin does well if he gets up close. Also, if Duck Hunt is off the stage, he's essentially... a sitting duck. [Muffled YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAH in the distance]
 
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Shady Penguin

Smash Lord
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North Carolina
Dandy Penguin here. Thought that I should start contributing to the board. I've always thought that Duck Hunt beats Robin.

You outcamp her pretty effectively, it's so easy to nullify any of her spells that aren't thoron with your various projectiles, you have more horizontal range, and you're wayyyy more mobile.

As Hypnotoad said: you outzone Robin and win the neutral, which means she, as one of the slowest characters in the game, has to get in on you.

It is indeed notable that Robin kills you way earlier than you kill her, but that's a run of the mill Duck Hunt problem and Robin certainly dies earlier than most power hitters do at the very least (she's not heavy and has a mediocre recovery).

I'd say Duck Hunt wins the neutral hard enough to where it's a +1 for him.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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*Cue "Life" by dai from the Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru musicbox -Kiri no Pithos- Album*

Match Vid References:
Exordium - Dann (Rosalina/Duck Hunt) vs Wille (Robin) - Winners Semis
https://youtu.be/14U-Q_sIHek?t=5m22s

[LGS 20/9/2015][Smash 4] Croi (Duck Hunt Dog) vs PhantomR (Robin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VknICzt4rh8

[LGS 6/9/2015][Smash 4][Winner's Finals] Croi (Duck Hunt) vs Raziek (Robin)
by SmashBrosNovaScotia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYJ8vTyri24

'Tis be their most recent encounter, as of what popped up when I used the search phrase at YT, "Duck Hunt VS Robin", and made it Sort By Upload Date on 11/21/2015. They've fought each other very often throughout this year, and SmashBrosNovaScotia's YT channel houses numerous match vids starring these two, so that would be a great place to look for more intel.

They've once teamed up here:
[Smash 4] GPP Monthly #1 - Croi (Duck Hunt) & Raziek (Robin) vs. Toomuchdog (ROB) & Baloo (Wario)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i31pEtdWd1E

And against each other:
[LGS 6/9/2015][Smash 4][Doubles Grand Finals] Black Christmas vs L E V I N B O Y Z
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNRpxIPkdoQ

Speaking of them, perhaps inviting them here would be of high value for all of us, since they have much experience in this MU, so Croi Croi and Raziek Raziek , if either of you two are okay with and are available for sharing any intel regarding this MU, it would be greatly appreciated.



*Cue "psy-chorus" by xaki from the Umineko no Naku Koro ni (Chiru) Visual Novel OST*


I've once submitted a sizeable write-up of this MU, waaaay back in late May 2015 here:
I'm not sure if it's okay to speak of any MUs here that isn't :4falcon: right now, and if it isn't, then I apologize in advance, but this topic's been lying dormant for an entire month, and I'd like to spark some activity here, starting with 2 of my mains, both of whom I confess to picking on good Robin players with in FG Anywhere...

As a Duck Hunt main, I believe the MU should be at least -1 or worse in favor of DH with customs off, because even though Gunmen, Cans, and Clays are indeed slow and shieldable, they can all block off Fires, thrown books & Levin Swords, and Thunders except Thoron (be thankful for this, you'll need it to break through). Gunmen is his absolute fastest & most reliable guard move (both in startup and recovery), but if KO'd (which a single ArcFire or Elthunder or ArcThunder will do in 1 go), has the longest respawn time (unless Can's knocked off-stage). Can is his most consistent and sturdy guard move with the strongest KO power of his 3 projectiles, but it requires a bit of assembly time, and its useless as a meat shield if you dash attack it or you're past it already. Clay is his most distant, laggy, flimsy, and most damaging guard move that will likely show up when Gunman is KO'd & Can is bypassed.

An aggressive DH that follows his own projectiles as he approaches you (i.e. me and possibly Brood) will challenge your shielding and projectiles with his own stuff, as well as grabs and pokes (especially if any of DH's stuff is still active and not KO'd), and while DH's disjointed tilts and aerials are generally faster than yours, you outrange DH's melee. Once DH's blocked off your Fires and Thunders with his own stuff, DH can come out of recovery frames faster than Robin can, and thus he gets to either lame you out, or go in on you on his own terms.

DH is also blessed with being able to duck, DTilt, and even crawl under Thoron, as are a few others (ex. Pikachu, Sheik, Diddy, Greninja, etc.). Much like Alph, a DH that's both aware of this fact and in position to act on it will start crawling around when it's fully charged, expecting and even baiting you to throw it out. You must catch him in a standing or aerial action if you're going to land it consistently.

However, it normally takes DH longer to KO you than it does for you to KO him. Coming back to the stage against DH is hard because of both his Can and himself being able to chase you somewhat far (even farther if he gets a walled stage like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit Studio/Nintendogs Omega, due to his wall-jump) for the DAir spike. DH coming back to the stage is easy for Robin to handle, since you have Thunders and (Gliding) Elwind/Levin!DAir spikes, once you get past his Can or Gunmen (or even his wall-jump, depending on the stage) and he's stuck Up B-ing.

With Customs on, DH gets to run 3123 or 3122 or 3121.

Zigzag Can is better at anti-airing you than default Can (bad for you, since you'll probably be in the air pretty often), and if positioned & mashed well, can rack up big damage very quickly.

Default Clay is good enough as it is for this MU. You may be slow, but you're not big enough for Clay Break to be preferred, and Rising Clay's payoff is too small to be worthwhile.

Duck Jump Snag denies you Elwind Spikes and possibly Levin DAir spikes, but it'll lose to Thunders. It's also an incredible Out of Shield option for getting him out of trouble (i.e. when you get in on him). He'll be begging for a walled stage like Duck Hunt or Castle Siege or Omega Wii Fit Studio if he runs this, even though both of the former stages ruin his projectiles.

Mega Gunmen's even better at warding off your Fires and Thunders (still not Thoron, thankfully) than default Gunmen, but it's the slowest of the 3 at actually firing at you, and it has good range on its shots. Quick Draw Aces MIGHT be considered for this MU to force you into the air for his long-range FAir to poke at you, as well as setting up Zigzag Can. QDA can still block off shots, but unlike default, QDA's own shots might actually come out to hit you before the Gunmen get KO'd, IF you're close enough.

You get to run 3312 or 3311 or 3313 or possibly 3332 or 3333 or 3331.

Speed Thunder = Charges up to Thoron quicker, and therefore, you get to rip through DH's projectiles more often (and hopefully DH himself as well, if you catch him standing/attacking/jumping/recovering/etc.).

Fire Wall = Helps KO Mega Gunmen if 2 of these are thrown at it (or 1 Fire Wall and 2 DTilts), plus it allows you to come down on DH easier (like as if it's WFT's Weighted Header). It also has faster recovery, so you can actually challenge DH's swarm.

Gliding Elwind = Out of Shield Escape/movement option that can help gimp DH, as well as get you inside.

Goetia = Bigger range that can really rack up damage
or Distant Nosferatu = An aid to fight camps
Of course, the biggest benefit will probably come from default, even though I'd personally run the other 2 (especially Distant in this MU, if the player is a defensive camper).

As for stages, I'd say Battlefield, Town & City, and possibly Smashville. Duck Hunt and Castle Siege are mixed bags. If possible, avoid walled Omegas and FD. You could try Delfino or Halberd to take advantage of Levin!UAir and your other moves' wonderful ceiling KO abilities... just be wary of the Dog's Zigzag Can, UAir, UTilt, and USmash, which DO KO earlier in those places as well.

Customs Robin actually has a shot at winning this, even with the variety of buffs that DH gets from his. With Customs, it becomes more even, to the point that I'd agree with the 0 assessment, possibly +1 Robin. Without customs, I'd say -1 in favor of DH.
I've technically had it ready since late April, but didn't submit it until late May, out of sheer nervousness. Seeing as how 4 people Liked it since I've posted it, such nervousness turned out to be unwarranted. :)



Before I add to the above submission from half a year ago, I have 2 snapshots to share:
My personal favorite crazy moment in all of FG Teams thus far that I can fondly remember was me as DH, allied with a Samus, going up against a Robin & Ike. Player names are sadly forgotten.

This pic from the 3DS FG Teams room straight up encapsulates that crazy moment:



From after that pic, I DTilted Ike when I was trying to DSmash him (this was in mid-March, aka pre-Mewtwo patch, btw, so the Direction Hold & then A+B method of doing Smashes on the 3DS was impossible), stopping him from charging Up Smash against my Samus buddy and allowing her to return to the stage while sending Ike off-stage (not KO'd yet, because lol DTilt when it was supposed to be DSmash). I walled out Robin while Samus was charging an up-angled FSmash in anticipation of Ike's Side B, and right when it looked like Ike was going to Side B her, she threw out that FSmash and CLEANLY beat it, KO-ing Ike in the process.

I don't remember too much about what happened in the rest of that match, but I DO remember ultimately winning that match in the end. I had sent that replay on the online servers some time ago, but the updates sadly rendered it unplayable.

This moment was what ultimately inspired my avatar and these topics, some time later.

EDIT: Well, THIS avatar:
Fun fact: The above pic used to be my avatar around here, until Mega(Orange)Yoshi came along. In certain places outside of Smashboards (ex. dA, YT), that is still my avatar.

What these 2 snapshots highlight is DH's ability to duck and even crawl under Thoron (DTilt is possible, but it's best not to press it while it's already above you). As much of a threatening bulldozer as that is, these pics can serve as proof that DH doesn't have to respect it as much as other taller folks have to.
Not only can DH duck, crawl, and DTilt under it, but he can even safely charge DSmash while Thoron's sailing over his head.

There's been a new piece of tech I've discovered since I've taken those photos: DH can DTilt under Thunder, ElThunder, and even ArcThunder. However, crawling under those versions of Thunder is impossible, which is what makes DTilt's lower profiling necessary. Even if Robin decides to mix up Thunder uses this way (as in, not just saving up for Thoron), DH still has an attack button to press to avoid it, IF that Thunder use is read while DH isn't committing to another action or position when it happens.
I'll admit, these are among the main reasons why I'll rep DH instead of Jr for this MU (Jr's default Mechakoopas will go where the Duo is. Sadly, I couldn't make that fact show in the above pic. :[ ). Ryu's an option as well, since he can FADC through Thunder/ElThunder/Thoron for a True DP punish if he's close enough (not ArcThunder, since it does multiple lingering hits). O_O



Now then, with all the above resources gathered, let's flip the chessboard around to examine this MU from DH's side, or rather, cover or elaborate on what I hope hasn't been brought up already:

*Cue "Checkmate" by dai from the Umineko no Naku Koro ni musicbox Blue album*


As the above song name would indicate, I'm going to start with her CHECKOMAYTOE Checkmate, which is essentially DThrow --> UAir (I.E. the new Hoo-Hah/Ding Dong/Beep Boop/Halle-Hoo-Hah) at 100-ish%). She may have the absolute slowest run speed out of everyone (It's literally worse than Ganondorf's. XD), but she does have default ArcFire & ArcThunder to help set it up.
Also at 100-ish%, if Thoron's on deck, she can do FThrow --> Thoron for the KO, as once demonstrated by AceStarThe3rd during his Undefeatable series.
Before KO percent, she gets juggles off of DThrow, such as the Jab string into Wind Book Ender at 0% and UTilt into a potential aerial at 50-ish%.
Quite frankly, she gets more off of grabs than we do. However, it's easier for us to grab her, due to our above-average mobility. Said mobility is what helps us avoid getting grabbed too, along with the speed of our A button moves (FAir has the range to compete with her A button moves).


From soonest to latest in terms of which Tomes recover when:
1. Wind (Good thing too, since without this, she's likely not coming back if her 2nd jump's sniped. Ever since the Wind Jab Ender buff, the odds of running out of this book actually went up significantly, due to how often some Robins will go for the Wind Jab Ender, myself included.)
2. Fire
3. Thunder (3 Thorons in a row without any other Thunder variants in-between, and this will be gone)
4. Nosferatu (According to the Loading Screen Tips, after 4 uses, it'll be gone for 40 seconds)
All uses fully recover upon every new stock.

Or was it 2. Thunder and 3. Fire?

Thunder, Elthunder, and even ArcThunder will generally lose to just about any part of DH's arsenal (ArcThunder remains actively hitting, so don't rush in if that gets blocked off). Default Gunmen can survive 2 Thunders, but 1 Elthunder and 1 ArcThunder will OHKO default Gunmen easily. ArcFire too will lose to the entirety of DH's arsenal in terms of actually reaching him (like ArcThunder, it'll still be actively hitting).

Until Robin gets Thoron, aside from hitting a B-pressed Can in the air and using his/her disjointed bronze/Levin sword to knock away our Can, break any Clays, and KO Gunmen, she's going to have to respect or clash with our arsenal. Even if she does get Thoron, as pictured above, we have an actual answer to that, provided she doesn't catch us in the middle of a standing or aerial action. Even if she goes for (El/Arc)Thunder, if we read that, we can DTilt under it and potentially hit her if we're close enough.



*Cue "Occultic no Majo Ver. CROSS" from the Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS OST (aka the Umineko no Naku Koro ni 2D Fighter for the PC/XBox 360)*


Custom Loadouts:
I'm still largely in support of what I've said about this part of the MU, so this section will be shorter than usual. The most likely decks you'll see from DH, IMO, will be 3123 or 1111, while Robin's most likely decks will be either 3311 or 1111. I wouldn't expect Gliding Elwind to see use here, despite my adoration of its ability to spike with either part of the attack, as well as help bail her out of some trouble spots, due to its lowered vertical height (lowest of the 3 Elwinds), and its movement arc making her recovery more predictable & unable to reliably retreat to the upper platforms at Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64 and possibly Lylat Cruise. Shoutouts to Raziek for calling me out on Gliding during one of the Twitch live-streamed tournaments some time ago. ^^;


Stage Picks: Since the May post, there has been 2 new legal stages added: Miiverse and Dream Land 64. While Miiverse is relatively similar to Battlefield (aside from how the main floor platform is designed), we canines... probably won't be so eager to go to DL64, since not only are there platforms to help Robin get in on us, but the low ceiling boosts her Checkmate's KO power. With Customs On, however, we gain Zigzag Can to help compete with her Checkmate.


Ratios:

WithOUT Customs: +1 in favor of DH if he succeeds in laming Robin out or approaching her on his terms. 0 even if she gets in. -1 in favor of Robin if she stays in.

WITH Customs: 0 Even. +1 in favor of Robin IS possible, due to Speed Thunder & Fire Wall.

I did rate this MU as a + in DH's favor, both in my May quote, and in the recent Matchup Project. I'm still in support of that, despite the developments since May. While I DO believe that Jr can do something here, as can Ryu, I'd definitely go DH for this one.


As for the 2nd character to cover this week, as much as I'd like to cover WFT, aka Jam Kuradoberi, I believe Doctor Mario would be more important for us to cover, for it's because of Nairo's excellent performance with him at MLG this year that he's been on peoples' radars lately.
 
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Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
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Messages
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Raziek
3DS FC
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Howdy. Happy to share my opinion on the MU here.

I have played Croi many many times in this MU, both pre-patch and post-patch. Pre-patch I would've called it even. (When I say patch, I mean the one with the Robin buffs)

Post-patch Robin definitely wins this match-up. 6-4 or a +1.4 (closer to a +1 than a +2 but not simply a +1)

I think many of you are significantly overrating Robin's difficulty of getting in in the neutral game. Although she is indeed the slowest runner, Robin is not attempting to get in via the ground. Robin is trying to get in via the air, and her airspeed is not bad. She is tied with Marth & Lucina for airspeed.

Most of my successful approaches come from picking the right moment to jump in and either doing a falling Fair/Nair or landing and going for Jab/Grab.

In terms of actual damage conversions Robin also racks damage a lot faster than DH. He has poor answers to the Uair juggle and often has to rely on trading damage with his can in order to get out of bad situations.

This problem becomes especially exacerbated when it comes to actually getting the kill. With access to the checkmate, a grab at around 90 is a stock. Meanwhile, so long as she's not getting hit by Smash attacks (which shouldn't happen unless you make a serious mistake), Robin shouldn't be dying until at least 130 unless she gets tagged by a Uair near the top of the screen.

Off-stage, both characters struggle, but I feel DH again has it worse off than Robin here, primarily due to the range difference in the air. Duck Hunt lacks the disjoint to actually combat the Levin sword, so as long as Robin has her double-jump she is not actually threatened by any of DH's edge-guarding options. If she loses it then yes, she does seriously have to worry about Dair, but the number of times I've actually been killed by Dair is probably less than 3 EVER.

DH on the other hand has to rely basically completely on the can to defend himself. Elwind from above is literally free damage and harassment, and if Robin can get around the can, Fair destroys DH. She also has stronger on-stage edge-guarding thanks to Arcfire at the ledge, which DH lacks actual answers to.

Ultimately the big difference in this MU comes in how accessible each character's kill options are. Robin has numerous reliable kill options. Arcfire -> Stuff, Arcthunder -> Stuff, Thoron, both jabs, Fair/Bair/Uair, All her Smashes, Checkmate. It's just not hard to find kills.

DH on the other hand struggles a LOT to get kills. His Smashes aren't reliable, neither Fair or Bair kills until like 130. Nair is good but it's very difficult for DH to actually break into her zone and LAND it. Most of my deaths in this MU come to getting hit by a can off-stage at like 150.

In a customs scenario things are a bit closer to even, but Speed Thunder offers reliable counter-camp options to make the neutral harder for DH.

Stage-wise there isn't really too much that really bothers me in this MU. I usually just ban FD because I hate the stage, and Lylat due to how it aids DH's projectile game while hindering Robin's.

@Dathx can offer some input as well, but I am confident in calling this MU as at least +1 Robin. The patch changed a LOT.
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
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Messages
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Orlando
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Howdy. Happy to share my opinion on the MU here.

I have played Croi many many times in this MU, both pre-patch and post-patch. Pre-patch I would've called it even. (When I say patch, I mean the one with the Robin buffs)

Post-patch Robin definitely wins this match-up. 6-4 or a +1.4 (closer to a +1 than a +2 but not simply a + +1 Robin.
Scores aren't really super important, though it's easier to think of the scoring more as +1 as a slight advantage, +2 as a moderate advantage, and +3 as a severe advantage / hard counter (though those seem to be rare in SSB4).

The most important part of our thread is the actual game plan and strategy. That said, do you think the discarded tomes and levin sword make a big diifference here? I would hesitate to think so, as most doggos have gunmen out around 60% of the time.
 
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