Right off the bat, saying that Lucario is dangerous but not because the player might be skilled is a huge scrub mentality. Lucario's Aura is part of the match up, and without it, he's massively underpowered. People who complain about how "good" Lucario gets in the late stock never talk about how poorly equipped he is in the early stock. If Lucario wins against you, it's because he was better skilled than you. There's a reason he's not #1 or even top 10.
No-one complains when we argue that Ike gets early KOs or DHD is underpowered in launchability. Is that scrub mentality too? Saying Lucario is dangerous because he has a
passive ability regardless of skill is still a valid point. Would you be daring to say Little Mac's KO punch isn't still dangerous simply because the player using it is inexperienced?
The 'more skilled than you' is a cliche argument that is assumed despite the fact you didn't see the match-up. There's a reason why people consider DHD underpowered and it isn't because of skill.
(I might add I'm a games programmer, and I can certainly tell you Nintendo have their share of bugs and balances issues. It's to be expected. That's why Diddy was nerfed. Do you blame people who lost to his intrinsic advantages pre-nerf as being unskilled? I wouldn't.)
Remember, I did document and replicate the slide glitch, as well as the 0% Little Mac KO move. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.
Force Palm's flame won't kill until very late in the stock. Force Palm grab is quite strong and will kill early (if Lucario is at 150%, it'll kill Duck Hunt at maybe 50%) but it's a 1 frame window (and it's late, on frame 9) and requires Lucario to be in grab range, which Duck Hunt doesn't ever have to be in if he doesn't want to.
The fact it kills DHD at 'maybe 50%' is what makes aura dangerous. To put this in context, a final smash often requires players be about 45-50% before it KOs them. And Lucario only has to bait one badly timed smash from DHD or get in on some nice end lag, which down-air, u-smash, d-smash, f-smash and frisbee all nicely provide.
And sure, I suppose you could look at Aura Sphere and Force Palm as neutralizing your projectiles, but it's much fairer to say the opposite, since Force Palm takes so long and Aura Sphere isn't worth anything without a bit of charge. If Lucario hits the Can with a projectile but doesn't knock it off stage, you can hide behind it and it'll absorb absolutely any other projectile, no matter how strong, without moving.
Except Lucario's main game isn't projectiles. So it's better to say it can neutralise ours because ours is more projectile centric. Hiding behind can is null because anyone with a basic grasp just dash attacks the can (or spikes it at a distance with some other move). Sure you could counter-dash but then can juggles and due to DHD being one of the frame-slowest characters and he gets an explosion. You could roll dodge but it's broken at the moment from what I can see (people can hit DHD... mid roll dodge) and thus prone to being caught. Jump and can says 'hi'.
Like I keep saying, Force Palm isn't as scary as you think because its frame data is atrocious, and Aura Sphere is stopped by anything, except the disc, when Lucario is at a high enough percentage that you shouldn't be throwing discs anyway. You've only talked about how Aura buffs his specials without talking about literally every other aspect of Lucario's moveset: Lucario's neutral game (approaches, tilts, jabs, aerials, everything but grab) is so bad no matter what percent he's at, it's hugely incorrect to say that "the deck" is stacked against Duck Hunt.
You haven't explained how his neutral game is 'so bad'. Slow, maybe (but I did say he was slow)? But as DHD with terrible end lag on a chunk of moves, it's not something that is entirely disadvantageous. But it does matter what percent he's at because it dictates how likely those moves are to KO.
As for aura sphere, you're assuming on-stage where it's a level playing field. When you're airborne, an aura sphere that can KO at low percents becomes pretty scary and your only options are:
1) Ledge grab for invincibility
2) Hope air dodge works (it tends not to - dodge issues)
3) Crazy tech that landing with the fastest shielding known to mankind
4) Hope your projectile doesn't get beat out by aura sphere, and if it's a can, hope it doesn't kill you on reflect
That's assuming above stage. If you're off-stage he can just toss it regardless then try to spike, back air the recovery. Force palm does decent coverage for roll on/get up (which given we have our nearly non-functional roll dodge, becomes problematic).
Duck Hunt's fsmash will start killing at about 100%, so if you're antsy for the kill, you can start looking for it twenty percent earlier than that. But moreover, you should never stop piling on the damage just because you're afraid of Aura. Lucario gets enormously powerful as early as 70% and you wouldn't start fishing for the kill then; why should you later? Lucario's fsmash will kill you whenever it feels like it, but it's slower than Ganondorf's. If you get hit by a kill move, it's your own fault.
Getting killed by anything in any game is whoever's fault in playing, it goes without saying. That doesn't mean it's the only issue to contend with. But that's the thing, my statement here isn't intrinsically wrong: you just disagree with my tactical approach in withholding damage from Lucario, which is a difference in tactics,
not a particular flaw.
Why hold discussions in match-ups if you guys only want to agree to the same approaches? I'd much rather withhold damage than give Lucario a free 2.5 times damage, because if he kills me the first time,
he retains the damage multiplier for the second life I have. Which as you said yourself, kills at about 50% done right.
It's good to know that, based on this information, you, who played Lucario once against Duck Hunt, think you know more about the match up than me, who mains both and plays against other Lucario mains every other day. And that is what you are inferring, since you wrote your response challenging my own points while telling me that I didn't challenge yours.
It's good to know that you prefer, rather than explaining what points are flawed, to try to take some sort of 'appeal to authority' by berating what is your incorrect perception of my playing Lucario which you assume (incorrectly) occurred once. Tell me, how did I learn to play duck hunt duo against other players whilst somehow only ever playing Lucario once?
You'd rather trying to turn me into some 'noob' by falsefully claiming I've only done one match (I gave an example match: I didn't say it was my only match) and how long have I been here for? I'm no idle contributor, either - low percent can KOs, 0% KO moves, slide glitche demos (and tests in newer versions), upthrow kill percents. But apparently I've just played Lucario 'once'.
Is this not true for every match up, though? "Hit them with a hard move when you have an opening and they're in kill percent."
No. Because in most other matches you want to stack up as much damage as possible. Lucario actually demands a withdrawal of that approach.
I've already explained why trying to punish their landing isn't likely to work against a decent Lucario. If they recover low, a Can will make it harder for them to make it back, but remember that he can curve ExtremeSpeed, so much that he can almost do a full circle. Granted, that's really dangerous and it's not likely that Lucario will risk something that extreme, but unless your control over the Can is absolute, it's not that hard to either dodge it or for you to miss.
Even if not likely, you still have to try. Players aren't likely to beat people like ZeRo, but as is the human condition, we still must try.
Putting yourself center stage while he's recovering just tells Lucario where not to go.
Which is good, because you don't want him centre stage. You gain coverage on both sides, and the shortest distance regardless of where he lands, except the edge (but a good DHD should be able to read an edge landing). If a DHD truly is worried about an edge grab, they can just perch a can (which denies get-up or camp) and then hold centre stage - which gives open gunman/frisbee coverage options (which is a free interrupt or force to shield). If they really are slow or land next to you, you get a free smash move in.
But this information of players not going where you are, is as you say "platitude". Common, trite information.
Let's talk about your other post.
Saying that Force Palm, Aura Sphere and ExtremeSpeed go farther the more Aura Lucario has is what is called a "platitude." It's common, trite information that's said as though it were wise or insightful. Everyone knows that Lucario's specials get better with his Aura, this isn't news.
Most people believe only his damage increases, not just his range.
Okay, first of all, what I said was "Lucario becomes dangerous at 70%." Lucario at 150% is overkill: at that percent, a particularly sturdy sneeze will knock Duck Hunt into the bubble. It's as unfair to base Lucario's strength at that percent as it is to assume he'll even survive that long.
But you just earlier said 'don't withhold damage if you're afraid of aura', but are now contradicting the point by saying he's overkill at 150% - which
is what I'm saying. This doesn't prove my post as being wrong.
Second, I don't assume Lucario is at 0% either. I even said at the end of my post that, as much as I try to base match ups on that, it's not fair in this one because Duck Hunt has such a hard time killing. My entire post assumes that Lucario has at least some Aura.
Any aura below kill ranges I personally treat as par for the course.
And finally, by "overriding early Aura Spheres," I'm assuming you mean the disc. Disc will actually clank with Aura Sphere until something like 100%, which is weird for how strong Aura is at that time, but it's also highly useful, since it does at all. If you're referring to gunman or Can, or both, Aura Sphere will never ever ever ever ever beat them. Try it yourself: go to Training; put Lucario at 999% (I know Aura caps at 190% but 999% is faster), then shoot a fully charged Aura Sphere at the Can or a gunman. They'll stop the sphere entirely. If you're scared of it, putting either one down and hiding behind it is a valid strategy. It's just like what AlmostDoug said.
I didn't say gunman doesn't stop the aura sphere or the can.
I said if you're next to gunman when the aura sphere hits, it classically also hits you. Like Flare Blitz or Samus' charge shot (fully charged). Can tends to reflect in a 'return to sender' bent, which if the aura sphere would of killed you, isn't a biggie, but if you're on about 150% as DHD (which I tend to be), having a can pop back in your face is just as fatal as the sphere. And I know you'd say to shield, but that dreaded end lag often stops shield (and I
think shields act 'weaker' the more damage you have - which is why you can take on a Little Mac full charge punch with a non-perfect during early percents without it breaking but later on it will break - which means at that percent shielding the can might entail dying anyway).
It's the same reason why Aura Sphere doesn't pass through, say, Nabbit.
If I ever deploy a nabbit I'll bear that in mind.
Lucario's frames and hitboxes (except his specials) are so piddly, no matter what percent he's at, that if you get hit by something hard, either it was a punish or it was your own fault.
Aren't his specials the ones that do the super KO damage? I'm not bothered about Lucario's
light moves, he can keep those. I'm concerned about being murdered at 50% early on.
Let's assume Lucario is at maximum Aura and you are at 0%. Lucario can uthrow to uair you, and that'll do maybe 30% right there, but it won't kill. He can Force Palm grab to Force Palm flame (which is a true combo at high Aura and you are at low percent), but this will not kill. He can use any smash attack, and fsmash could very well kill at 0 with some charge (assuming center stage), but they're all so laggy and precise that it's your fault for getting hit by them.
You're going on about that 'fault' thing again. Like the OP of this thread states, I assume Lucario is being played competently (although I cover both bases and assume incompetence too), and they would
bait you into a situation where they can get force palm in, and given it covers both sides, they don't have to be all that accurate - just well timed. And in a game where perfect shielding is a few frame and people do that regularly, I'd have a hard time believing a competent Lucario would miss a force palm.
My point being, all that strength doesn't mean jack if Lucario has no guarantees himself. He has to rely on Aura Sphere (which is rejected by gunman/Can) and Force Palm (which, if he spams, leaves him predictable and wide open). His run speed is too slow to chase you and his frame data doesn't help him at all. Remember how, in Dragonball Z, Trunks found a way to get much stronger and buffer than Vegeta, but when he tried to use that against Cell, he just got opened up because he was too slow? It's the same idea here.
But the problem is, as I did mention, all of DHD's distance attacks just add damage (buffing Lucario's damage), and DHD's speedy ones just don't kill. The ones that kill Lucario (with the exception of a well timed backair or up-air but you can't even read his up-B landings so it's a moot point) just so happen to be the slow ones that leave you vulnerable to his lower percent KOs.
On the disc, I was arguing that disc neutralizes Aura Sphere until high percents, not the other way around. Granted, this is a bit confusing since we're arguing the same thing, but from "glass-half-full/empty" perspectives.
Yeah, I get that. But I meant it more in contrast to say Samus' charge shot in that never will it ever break through. I am trying to aim my comments both at new players (stating the range and the frisbee bypass) and experienced players (damage management, stage control) but neither party will be happy with my 'overview'.
Like I said, Aura Sphere will never beat the Can or the gunman. It'll vanish the frame its first hitbox touches the gunman's hurtbox. It will never "extend" beyond him and has zero chance of hitting you at all. Same goes for Can. The only attack that will do these is Force Palm.
I'll go double-check this, but I've had the experience of being KO'd despite having gunman out to block, and I thought it was the same thing as Charizard's side-B and Samus' charge shot so I shrugged it off.
Aura Sphere hitting the Can will send it rocketing to the moon, sure, but it's better than getting hit by the sphere yourself. Unless, of course, it's already been hit by one of Lucario's own projectiles, in which case, it won't move at all.
See my DHD 150% comment about can above. A can can kill DHD at about 144% if it's close to edge, but I'm assuming mid-stage.
Shielding a fully-charged Aura Sphere at maximum Aura is very dangerous because it's crazy good at breaking shields. And since I know you'd rather sit in your shield than protect yourself with a gunman, here comes another one, which you either have to take or risk getting your shield broken, leaving you open to a fully charged fsmash.
Assuming the gunman thing is true (I will go double check), as is frisbee, they don't work at the higher percents of Lucario's damage, which makes them more risky than a possible shield failure (which shouldn't happen if you've got perfect shielding down, which I do use). Can will work at before DHD's 140% (144% risks self-KO), but I don't like having a dead can on the playing field (because it's vital in KO'ing off-stage opponents), especially if they can jab it back at me.
"Space" and "stay all up in your grill" are two different things. You make it sound like Duck Hunt is completely immobilized by Lucario.
You can space with projectiles... but you're contributing damage to Lucario. Which is great at early percents, but not if you want him to stay out of the 'overkill' range.
Of course using a smash attack in neutral is risky as hell, don't be obtuse. If you're close enough to use a smash attack, but it whiffs, no "smart" Lucario will use the flame of Force Palm as a punish: they'll either go for Force Palm grab or a smash attack. The flame is for spacing, and since Duck Hunt gave that up for the attack, Lucario will punish with something much more severe than an intentionally whiffed Force Palm.
You still know what I mean. This is just pedantry on movesets.
You could play the long-distance game with Lucario, but if you want to get the kill with less laggy moves, you're going to have to get your hands dirty. This is not a unique problem to Duck Hunt. Mario isn't about to kill Lucario with fireballs, or Sheik with needles, or Diddy with bananas. Even Villager needs to get in close if he wants the slingshots to kill. Duck Hunt's alternative is to hope that the Can will eventually get the kill, which, if you don't do anything else but throw Cans, won't work because they're easy as hell to shield or Double Team. You have to risk approaching. Suck it up.
Again with the patronising attitude. Mario, Sheik and Diddy all have primarily melee movesets (and their smash moves are far faster compared to DHD). All you're doing is verifying my point DHD has to go close range, which if you forgotten, contradicts your earlier point about 'not getting close to Lucario'.
So which is it? Stay close and KO at risk of force palm etc KO'ing you? Or stay safe and distant?
Feel free to feel like I'm "ganging up on you" because I had to spend an hour of my time painstakingly telling you why you're wrong.
You do know a gang has more than one person, right? I asked you to explain your points, which besides trying to insinuate I'm a "scrub" who only played Lucario "once", have to "suck it up", you didn't really contradict any points except maybe gunman which I'm going to double-check rather than utilising what is a vague form of personal abuse.
Splooshi Splashy
mentioned.
VS
ish giggles that seem to occur over folks calling her "Spamus" out of my system before I get going here.
![[SKS] Yung Lamppost](/data/avatars/l/326/326203.jpg?1468209131){kind=avatar}
