Data Shulk's Frame Data [Deleted]

[KuroganeHammer]

Link to Shulk's Complete Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Shulk​

 

[Berserker.]

I'll put this inside the thread directory

Edit: Isn't buster's damage received multiplier at x1.13?

Edit 2: Saw the edit. Thanks again Aero

 

[erico9001]

Well, it is said in this that the knockback dealt in Monado Speed and Monado Shield is decreased. That's technically true, but I am pretty sure the only reason for that is the lowered damage dealt, which is already listed on the page. It's not the base knockback or the knockback growth of the hitbox that is changed, it's the base damage. The opponent takes less knockback as a result of slightly less damage they will be at once the damage done by the hitbox has been factored in for the knockback calculation. This knockback reduction turns out to be miniscule and of very little importance. The same thing is true for Jump and Buster with knockback taken; however, it is not listed for them.

For consistency and to avoid misconceptions (people often feel Speed and Shield lower knockback more than they actually do), I think Speed and Shield should have their knockback dealt labelled as no change.

Anyways, this is very well organized!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is what someone else said to me!

I'm considering it.

Technically Buster and Jump have reduced knockback taken to make up for the extra damage they take also, but I left it as no change because everything on that table is compared to vShulk.

 

[Masonomace]

Eggcelent guide Aero. Although, FAir's landing lag is no longer 21 frames. It's something like 18 or 19 frames now.

So how does Buster have reduced knockback taken? It doesn't have a stat that's increased like the Jump Art does for Fall speed to resist against vertical knockback.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Because Buster seems to have approximately the same launch resistance as vShulk, I think he takes less knockback to account for the extra damage taken.

 

[Peppa]

Excellent put together! Thank you for this.

 

[erico9001]

This is what someone else said to me!

I'm considering it.

Technically Buster and Jump have reduced knockback taken to make up for the extra damage they take also, but I left it as no change because everything on that table is compared to vShulk.

Well, Buster is only 1.13x damage taken (although people still tend to see it as risky for some reason). It would only make a miniscule difference anyways. Monado Jump actually has its air speed, which has the effect of lowering vertical knockbacks. Uhhh I'm going to go do a test.

Bowser's f-smash uncharged usually deals 23%. Against Monado Jump, it does 28.06% damage, which is obviously close to 28%. Against Buster, it does 25.99% (26%). If Buster takes more damage just as a result of more damage, then Vanilla Shulk should take the same knockback when 3% more in damage. Monado Jump should take the same damage as Vanilla if Vanilla is 5% more than Jump.

I went onto wii fit studio non-omega for the kill percents (training mode spawn point going right then left).
27% - kill percent Vanilla
24% - kill percent Buster
74% - kill percent Vanilla
71% - kill percent Buster

I switched to Paulutena temple (training mode spawn point, going left)
124% - kill percent Vanilla
121% - kill percent Buster

It doesn't look like Buster has any knockback reduction. Though, I can't test Jump in the same way due to Monado Jump's fall speed lowering the kill percents of more vertical moves.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

3% extra on Buster should be showing at least 15-20% of a difference in KO percents, not 3%.

So I have to conclude that knockback received is reduced to a certain extent.

Edit: A slightly charged Fsmash (~26%) kills on Palutena's Temple at about 95% against vShulk.

There's clearly reduced KB taken when in Buster.

 

[L1GHT]

Link to Shulk's Complete Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Shulk​

how do you get into a back room??

 

[Berserker.]

how do you get into a back room??

He is special

 

[AlvisCPU]

I'm going to ask some noob questions here.
- What are the movement and weight values indicating? Like, walk speed is 1.1, but 1.1 what? It looks arbitrary but I don't think it is.
- FAF = ?, BKB = Base Knockback (I think), WBKB = ?, KGB = ?
- Is there a reason angles are displayed as 361 and not 1?

I think I get the rest.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm going to ask some noob questions here.
- What are the movement and weight values indicating? Like, walk speed is 1.1, but 1.1 what? It looks arbitrary but I don't think it is.
- FAF = ?, BKB = Base Knockback (I think), WBKB = ?, KGB = ?
- Is there a reason angles are displayed as 361 and not 1?

I think I get the rest.

1) The numbers with movement are a certain distance measured in frames iirc. Weight is a different ballpark, it's a measurement of how much a character can resist knockback.

2) http://kuroganehammer.com/Glossary

3) That's the Sakurai angle, it's a special angle that starts off at almost 0 degrees at low percents and scales to about 45 degrees at high percents.

 

[Berserker.]

Stickied :^)

 

[kenniky]

Wait, fair and bair have the same landing lag? That's weird. bair always seems longer lol

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah I made an typo there, I've been aware of it for a while. It'll be fixed when I next update the site.

 

[erico9001]

3% extra on Buster should be showing at least 15-20% of a difference in KO percents, not 3%.

So I have to conclude that knockback received is reduced to a certain extent.

Edit: A slightly charged Fsmash (~26%) kills on Palutena's Temple at about 95% against vShulk.

There's clearly reduced KB taken when in Buster.

Oh right, I forgot to edit that I set the CPU to control for those tests, and did no inputs as the receiver whatsoever.

The difference in kill percents is consistently equal to the difference in damage taken by the move, though. You can figure out Buster's kill percents from Vanilla's by simply taking the difference in damage taken from the move and adding it onto Vanilla's kill percent.

Ganondorf's grounded reverse warlock punch: 37% damage
Going on FD training mode spawn point against Shulk.
Vanilla dies at 8%.
Buster Shulk takes 41.81 damage, which is 4.81 more than Vanilla
Buster dies at 4%.

In the knockback formula, the Monado Arts only effect the value of the damage of the target. They do not effect the value of the damage that the move deals (confirmed by testings of the damage counters deal while in Monado Jump/Buster), so that value could also be interpreted as the damage the hitbox has.

The knockback equation uses the damage the opponent has after the hitbox's damage is taken into account. If Vanilla is sent to 90% damage by a move that kills him, then Buster must also be sent to 90% damage and die if there is no knockback reduction. If Buster takes 3% more damage from the move than Vanilla, then he will be at 3% lower than Vanilla when the move sends him to 90%. And, if there is no knockback reduction, he will also die. This is what I have been showing. That 3% or whatever is the extra knockback taken from being in Buster. There is no knockback reduction. Buster's kill percents are like this:

V – (D(1.13) – D) = V – (.13)D

V = Vanilla kill percent
D = Damage of move in vanilla

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm kinda confused as to what you're saying now. I'll tl;dr how the knockback formula works:

((((((v+d)/10)+(((v+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b

Variables
v = Victim Percentage (Before being hit)
d = Damage
w = Weight
g = Knockback Growth
b = Base Knockback

Somehow Rage fits into this, but since we're in training mode it doesn't matter.

So if you get hit by Bowser's f-smash in vShulk, the knockback formula looks like this:

((((((124+23)/10)+(((124+23)*23)/20))*(200/(102+100))*1.4)+18)*(98/100))+25

The knockback received equals 292.

Let's try modifying the KB formula with Monado Buster activated:

((((((124+26)/10)+(((124+26)*26)/20))*(200/(102+100))*1.4)+18)*(98/100))+25

The knockback received equals 327.

That is a MASSIVE difference (but probably unnoticable on a normal stage, a better test subject might be something with high KBG), although in Buster he dies a few percent earlier, if there was no reduced knockback he would be dying much faster on Palutena's Temple, not 3% less.

Even if your theory of "Shulk only takes the same amount of damage in the KB formula was correct", that doesn't explain why a random 3% difference in KO percents exists.

 

[erico9001]

I'm kinda confused as to what you're saying now. I'll tl;dr how the knockback formula works:

((((((v+d)/10)+(((v+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b

Variables
v = Victim Percentage (Before being hit)
d = Damage
w = Weight
g = Knockback Growth
b = Base Knockback

Somehow Rage fits into this, but since we're in training mode it doesn't matter.

So if you get hit by Bowser's f-smash in vShulk, the knockback formula looks like this:

((((((124+23)/10)+(((124+23)*23)/20))*(200/(102+100))*1.4)+18)*(98/100))+25

The knockback received equals 292.

Let's try modifying the KB formula with Monado Buster activated:

((((((124+26)/10)+(((124+26)*26)/20))*(200/(102+100))*1.4)+18)*(98/100))+25

The knockback received equals 327.

That is a MASSIVE difference (but probably unnoticable on a normal stage, a better test subject might be something with high KBG), although in Buster he dies a few percent earlier, if there was no reduced knockback he would be dying much faster on Palutena's Temple, not 3% less.

Even if your theory of "Shulk only takes the same amount of damage in the KB formula was correct", that doesn't explain why a random 3% difference in KO percents exists.

I did make a typo in my post.

You can figure out Buster's kill percents from Vanilla's by simply taking the difference in damage taken from the move and adding subtracting it onto from Vanilla's kill percent.

Slightly different formula? I guess I should have put the knockback formula in my post. I did not think I would have to go so far.

From here:
"

For legibility:

(((((p/10 + p×d/20) × 200/(w+100) × 1.4) + 18) × s) + b) × r

• p is the percentage of the target, counted after the attack's damage is added.
• d is the damage the attack dealt.
• w is the weight of the target. Note: in Smash 64, heavier characters have a lower weight value than lighter ones, in accordance to the formula.
• s is the attack's knockback scaling (also known as knockback growth) divided by 100 (so a scaling of 110 is input as 1.1).
• b is the attack's base knockback.
• r is a ratio based on a number of factors"

The difference between our two formulas is yours breaks the p value into (v+d). However, breaking p into these values ASSUMES that the damage taken by the user from the move is the same as the damage that the actual move deals. However, with Monado Buster, this is not the case! No, the damage Monado Buster takes is 1.13x more than usual. As is demonstrated by the damage Shulk deals by his counter while in Monado Buster or Monado Jump, there is a difference between that d value and the amount of damage Shulk takes while in Monado Buster. This is proved by how Shulk's counter does not deal more damage while in Monado Jump than it usually does, as Monado Jump's increased damage taken does not change the base damage used in the calculation of the counter's damage or knockback (counters deal more damage against stronger damage attacks). Or, how Monado Buster's counter's damage does only 1.4x the damage it would do in Vanilla, not any more. If we were to make your equation accurate, we would set apart the two different d values used in calculation:

((((((v+t)/10)+(((v+t)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b

Where t = damage taken
and d = damage of hitbox

and v+t=p, the damage you are at after the move would have hit

The only value changed by being in Buster is p, the damage Shulk is in after the hitbox of the move is taken into account.

As I explained earlier in this post, d is unchanged.

w, s, b, and r have no reason to change.

It's easy to see that if Buster is sent to the same damage after the damage of a move is taken account, p, there will be the same knockback. In other words, if t is 3 higher, then v must be 3 lower for that part of the equation to balance to the same p. How can we know when Buster is sent to the same damage? Well, figure out how much additional damage Buster takes from the move. That additional damage can be subtracted from Vanilla's percent. Then, when Buster takes the hit at that lower percent, he will be sent exactly to the damage percent that Vanilla would be at. The equation will be balanced. p=p.

I do not need to plug things into the formula for this to be logically clear. However, I will do so. I'll just use your values.

((((((124+23)/10)+(((124+23)*23)/20))*(200/(102+100))*1.4)+18)*(98/100))+25

This ~ 292.25

Buster: v is 3 less to account for t being 3% more. If this is a kill percent, then Buster's kill percent is 3% less.

((((((121+26)/10)+(((121+26)*23)/20))*(200/(102+100))*1.4)+18)*(98/100))+25

This ~ 292.25

 

[KuroganeHammer]

My formula is better.

Also if that's the case, then where is the variation for that 3% kill percent on Palutena's Temple?

 

[erico9001]

My formula is better.

Also if that's the case, then where is the variation for that 3% kill percent on Palutena's Temple?

Your formula is wrong for these calculations. I logically show why that is in my post. It does not seem like you read it...

Edit: A slightly charged Fsmash (~26%) kills on Palutena's Temple at about 95% against vShulk.

There's clearly reduced KB taken when in Buster.

In this, you don't say where Vanilla dies at that percent, when Buster dies, or any sort of information that would make this information relevant to the conversation. It means nothing unless that information is provided.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

In this, you don't say where Vanilla dies at that percent, when Buster dies, or any sort of information that would make this information relevant to the conversation. It means nothing unless that information is provided.

I switched to Paulutena temple (training mode spawn point, going left)
124% - kill percent Vanilla
121% - kill percent Buster

Please explain this variation if the calculations you made deal the same amount of knockback.

Edit:
i reread the post. You might be right, I will look into it.

Edit 2:

I can't think of anything to test this with so I'm going to have to concede.

I've updated the site with the changes to knockback received and the fair landing lag real numbers.

 

[Masonomace]

!!! --- So FAir's landing lag is in fact 17 frames. I had thought it was 18, but I'm much more content with 17 to the max.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Funny thing I noticed with Shulk is that his autocancel frames are so garbage that you can full hop bair and sill get landing lag, but you can jump or otherwise do any other option before he lands.

 

[Masonomace]

Funny thing I noticed with Shulk is that his autocancel frames are so garbage that you can full hop bair and sill get landing lag, but you can jump or otherwise do any other option before he lands.

Indeed. The option I do instead of jumping is to input NAir upon landing in order to replace BAir's landing lag so that the lag isn't as high. Jumping is so much better though.

 

[kenniky]

Funny thing I noticed with Shulk is that his autocancel frames are so garbage that you can full hop bair and sill get landing lag, but you can jump or otherwise do any other option before he lands.

It's like that with every single one of his aerials which is really weird

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Whoa angling FSmash gives it an extra active frame? That's some small, but nice info, especially since if I recall up-angled FSmash kills earlier. Great masterpost dude!

 

[Virum]

Every time I look at this thread and click the link in the OP my expression matches that of Aero's avatar. That one area of Shulk overall that holds him back from ever being a top tier threat. Shoutouts to having the best autocancel windows in the game too

 

[Berserker.]

That was actually his face when he did Zelda's frame data

because he found out in the process that Zelderp was nerfed from Brawl. Oh boi

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Honestly my face when I look at pretty much anything Smash related. Should have seen my face when I was trying to work out what the **** Peach Bomber even is.

 

[Virum]

Oh something I just noticed, I feel the Jump image should have lower Defence than the Buster image as he receives more damage in Jump than in Buster. Also the Weight for Smash should be quite a bit lower too. Other than that they're cool.

 

[Berserker.]

Aero specified what defense is for the stats here:

defensive (camping, ability to stop approaches, OoS options, super armor/intangibility etc)

It makes sense that buster and jump aren't that highly rated in that aspect if we're going by this. I guess.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Weight isn't changing either.

 

[kenniky]

Weight isn't changing either.

Why not, I might ask? iirc Smash Shulk weighs approximately the same as Peach, and if you compare their bars they're not very close.

also I went back to your weight rankings topic and lol at being an idiot even then

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Why not, I might ask? iirc Smash Shulk weighs approximately the same as Peach, and if you compare their bars they're not very close.

also I went back to your weight rankings topic and lol at being an idiot even then

Oh, wtf Smash shulk is meant to be 4/10 LOL

Thanks for picking that up.

 

[isaiah :)]

what does FAF, BKB, and KBG mean

 

[KuroganeHammer]

what does FAF, BKB, and KBG mean

http://kuroganehammer.com/Glossary

 

[isaiah :)]

thank you it helped a lot, but what about IASA mean?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

thank you it helped a lot, but what about IASA mean?

Interruptible as soon as, a bad term for FAF basically.

 

[erico9001]

I noticed a difference between your frame data and this frame data: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

For Up tilt, the pastebin version says:
"Frame 11-23: 8% 70b/90g (KO@ 185%) 85° Slash
Frame 13-23: 7% 65b/85g (KO@ 241%) 108° Slash"

However, your version of the frame data lists what appears to be the same two hitboxes as lasting from
"Utilt: 11-12
Utilt (late): 13-23"

The pastebin version is right, though. There are two hitboxes: a sweetspot that persists to frame 23 at the metal blade and a sour spot that persists to frame 23 at the beam.