Shulk vs Zero Suit Samus MU Thread

[erico9001]

Discuss.

 

[mario123007]

I really think this MU is favor for ZSS since she has the speed, but Shulk can also get a bit advantage by change into speed monado, and utilize his attack range. Never make an opening for ZSS to recover and perform some deadly combo.

 

[Lord Xanthan]

While Shulk has the advantage in range, ZSS has the advantage in speed. You can use speed art against her, but a lot of her moves have very little lag so when speed is on cooldown it can be difficult to punish her moves. Also, I tend to use fair whenever she uses her down b.

 

[The_Goofyborn]

Geez, I find this match-up to be an pain in the rear. I definitely think ZSS wins this MU just based on her juggling ways and ridiculous frame data alone, but I definitely don't think it's in the 'unwinnable' category. While it's definitely an uphill battle, patience and spacing are going to be the two factors that can make or break this battle. First thing's first, let's not get grabbed, eh? We'll be eating a crap-ton of damage if we let this slippery snake wiggle that plasma whip on us, so definitely be on the look out for that. Another thing to keep a look out for is that damn (forth Chaos Emerald.... I'm sorry.) paralyzer shot, as that is one of ZSS' many ways of applying pressure on us Monado Boys. If you are in range of a shot and notice that ZSS has charged it for a a bit, there are really only a few options we have. We can shield the on-coming shot (which is semi safe, I swear they've confirmed grabs on me after hitting my shield with that thing, but that could have definitely been a case of me playing on Wi-Fi) Fair her from a safe distance while she is charging the shot (risky,) cancel that bad boy out with a well-timed Nair or an Air Slash OOS if you space it right (though, I wouldn't recommend doing this option at early percents, ZSS' fast fall speed can allow her to land before AS has reached the ground/finished it's landing lag.) Obviously it should go without saying that you need to mix up whatever options you choose, as a smart player will adapt and bait, but that's where the patience comes in. A good ZSS always wants to be on the move, and as a character that has limited mobility when not in Jump or Speed, it can be rather intimidating. The key here is to make it so that you are simply shifting your position as they do their ZSS things, which can seem rather silly at first, but can go a long way in keeping that speedy woman out. Obviously, you don't want to get too close to ZSS, so again, we need to mind our spacing. Forgot to mention this earlier, but if ZSS whiffs a grab, we NEED to capitalize on that opportunity. ZSS seems to have very little ending lag on most of her attacks, every little thing we can punish is vital. Also, be very very careful when poking at her shield, upB OOS is a very potent threat from ZSS. The last few things I can really add in terms of little tidbits is that utilt can be a great tool to stop that annoying down B of hers, just make sure to time it right if you decide to go for it. Also, empty hops are amazing against ZSS (as they are against most characters) as most players will be shield due to the threat of one of your aerials, Speed especially makes empty-hop to pivot grab a strong option.

As for Arts, I personally aim for Jump and Speed, as I feel that mobility is of great importance in this match up, but even Jump is a bit risky here (one grab from ZSS in good ol' Jump, we're gonna taste that damage. I suggest tapping Buster or Jump off if we find ourselves about to be easy-bake combo'd.) Shield can still be useful at high percents and has that bonus perk of having less hitstun at earlier percentages, but it's lack of mobility can be a bit of a downside in this MU. I find that Buster and Smash are in the same boat in this MU. Buster of course is great for his tremendous shield pressure, shield push and damage, but it makes a punish from ZSS much more dangerous. Smash is pretty much the definition of risk/reward in this scenario. ZSS isn't too heavy, so Smash can take some of her stocks rather early if you manage to get off a hit on her (I've killed ZSS in the 80%-90% window off of a good up smash read.) Of course, Smash also gives us the curse of making us easier to kill, and ZSS is no slouch when it comes to KO options. Unfortunately, I haven't got to fight many Zero Suit's, but I do play one fairly often and I've been taking notes of what seems to be working when I walk away with the win. I'd say 60:40 at best, but I wouldn't be surprised if others see it better/worse. As usual, I'd love to here my fellow Monado wielders take on this.

 

[erico9001]

Geez, I find this match-up to be an pain in the rear. I definitely think ZSS wins this MU just based on her juggling ways and ridiculous frame data alone, but I definitely don't think it's in the 'unwinnable' category. While it's definitely an uphill battle, patience and spacing are going to be the two factors that can make or break this battle. First thing's first, let's not get grabbed, eh? We'll be eating a crap-ton of damage if we let this slippery snake wiggle that plasma whip on us, so definitely be on the look out for that. Another thing to keep a look out for is that damn (forth Chaos Emerald.... I'm sorry.) paralyzer shot, as that is one of ZSS' many ways of applying pressure on us Monado Boys. If you are in range of a shot and notice that ZSS has charged it for a a bit, there are really only a few options we have. We can shield the on-coming shot (which is semi safe, I swear they've confirmed grabs on me after hitting my shield with that thing, but that could have definitely been a case of me playing on Wi-Fi) Fair her from a safe distance while she is charging the shot (risky,) cancel that bad boy out with a well-timed Nair or an Air Slash OOS if you space it right (though, I wouldn't recommend doing this option at early percents, ZSS' fast fall speed can allow her to land before AS has reached the ground/finished it's landing lag.) Obviously it should go without saying that you need to mix up whatever options you choose, as a smart player will adapt and bait, but that's where the patience comes in. A good ZSS always wants to be on the move, and as a character that has limited mobility when not in Jump or Speed, it can be rather intimidating. The key here is to make it so that you are simply shifting your position as they do their ZSS things, which can seem rather silly at first, but can go a long way in keeping that speedy woman out. Obviously, you don't want to get too close to ZSS, so again, we need to mind our spacing. Forgot to mention this earlier, but if ZSS whiffs a grab, we NEED to capitalize on that opportunity. ZSS seems to have very little ending lag on most of her attacks, every little thing we can punish is vital. Also, be very very careful when poking at her shield, upB OOS is a very potent threat from ZSS. The last few things I can really add in terms of little tidbits is that utilt can be a great tool to stop that annoying down B of hers, just make sure to time it right if you decide to go for it. Also, empty hops are amazing against ZSS (as they are against most characters) as most players will be shield due to the threat of one of your aerials, Speed especially makes empty-hop to pivot grab a strong option.

As for Arts, I personally aim for Jump and Speed, as I feel that mobility is of great importance in this match up, but even Jump is a bit risky here (one grab from ZSS in good ol' Jump, we're gonna taste that damage. I suggest tapping Buster or Jump off if we find ourselves about to be easy-bake combo'd.) Shield can still be useful at high percents and has that bonus perk of having less hitstun at earlier percentages, but it's lack of mobility can be a bit of a downside in this MU. I find that Buster and Smash are in the same boat in this MU. Buster of course is great for his tremendous shield pressure, shield push and damage, but it makes a punish from ZSS much more dangerous. Smash is pretty much the definition of risk/reward in this scenario. ZSS isn't too heavy, so Smash can take some of her stocks rather early if you manage to get off a hit on her (I've killed ZSS in the 80%-90% window off of a good up smash read.) Of course, Smash also gives us the curse of making us easier to kill, and ZSS is no slouch when it comes to KO options. Unfortunately, I haven't got to fight many Zero Suit's, but I do play one fairly often and I've been taking notes of what seems to be working when I walk away with the win. I'd say 65:45 at best, but I wouldn't be surprised if others see it better/worse. As usual, I'd love to here my fellow Monado wielders take on this.

I agree with most of this. I aim for using Monado Jump myself, but I don't think the 1.13x damage taken in Buster is much to worry about.

The most annoying thing about this MU is the long grab. It actually out-ranges Bair by a little bit, so it mostly renders our spacing efforts useless against a hit on the shield. Landing with no aerial -> grab probably goes a long way, especially in Monado Jump, like it does against the other Samus. Hmm, I haven't tried this before, but maybe a good mix-up would be to approach with Monado Speed, hit the shield with a rising FH Fair, almost let your feet touch the ground to bait the grab, then use your second jump to avoid the grab -> punish. Anyways, her grab hurts because of D-throw combos.

According to this handy little guide:
http://smashboards.com/guides/how-to-di-all-throws-in-smash-4.341/

ZSS (81)-
Down Throw (C)

• Alternate between DI’ing up and in and up and away because while this throw does have a confirmed follow up if your opponent isn’t used to dealing with DI or you succeed and fake them out, you can even get a free punish if they whiff an up b trying to kill you. You can also DI down and away but typically only at low percent. At very high percent you can stick with just up and away and even get a free punish if an aerial is missed, especially if they whiff an up b.

Overall, the MU seems to have ZSS in a fairly advantageous position. I have no idea how custom moves affect it.

 

[Piford]

Overall, the MU seems to have ZSS in a fairly advantageous position. I have no idea how custom moves affect it.

Customs make the matchup a bit better for Shulk if you are really good at using hyper arts or can get a read with power counter. Advancing air slash doesn't really help too much as ZSS is going to be recovering with her flip kick thing that makes her invincible, so stage spikes aren't happening often. Also she can use her flip kick thing to get far off the edge past the distance set by advancing air slash, so default air slash is probably better. I don't really think customs changes how the match up is played, but it makes it a little bit more doable for Shulk.

 

[Berserker.]

I actually think this is one of Shulks easier top tier match ups. ZSS' neutral is not good at all (it's actually bad, if anything). thats something you guys are forgetting about. I think what makes this slightly Zss' favor is her ridiculous advantage which can exploit shulks weaknesses quite easily. I'd post more but mobile smash is kinda gross.

I'll just follow up to what @ spiderfreak1011 has to say. Pardon me lol

Edit: Oh and I'd put this as -1 or +0

 

[Deleted member]

This is actually one of my favorite top tier matchups to fight and it's not because of their swimsuit costumes and I'll go as far as saying I think it's even. I have a friend that mains her and we go back and forth a lot.

Shulk's main strengths are the long range of the Monado which you can use to outspace Zamus in this fight and while yes, Zamus has the advantage in speed, we can keep up with her by going...well, Speed lol. On the ground, Shulk beats Zamus handily. I like going for cross up NAirs since then she can't shieldgrab you too easily, and her turn around grab can be reacted and punished. One thing to be very careful about is Zamus' whip, mostly her ZAir which she can use to compete with Shulk's range to an extent. You also have to careful about OoS up special, but so long as you're careful with your spacing (the pushback in Buster helps with this), you shouldn't fall to victim too bad to this. I've never had too much trouble with her Paralyzer (which you can just swat away with NAir), but it's still something to be careful against since Shulk will take a lot of damage if it hits. Zamus is another character you absolutely don't want to grab you, but you'll want to grab her too. Her ground game isn't too great, so going for stuff like pivot grabs is good.

In the air is where things can get a little hard for Shulk. One thing you want to be very careful about is being above her. She isn't as obnoxious to land against as say Rosalina, but she can still juggle/hit you with her UAir/USmash pretty easily, and you can't really challenge that with besides maybe a good Vision (at best you'll trade with NAir against her UAir). Zamus is probably one of Shulk's harder characters to edgeguard against because of her damn down special lol. Don't ever over commit or you might just get spiked to your doom. It's not impossible to edgeguard her since FAir is very useful against her, but I generally prefer going for regular KOs.

For stages, I actually don't like fighting Zamus on Battlefield because it's very easy for you to be above her and that's generally the last place you want to be against her (though maybe I just suck on Battlefield since Shulk can make it hard for her to escape his long ranged attacks). As for customs, I actually never tried it against her yet, but I think Decisive Arts could be very useful since you generally want to be in Speed a lot in this fight though that's just some small theorycraft lol. And of course, Power Vision is Power Vision (might be useful for KOing her early when she fires her paralyzer?). AFAIK, Zamus doesn't really gain much in customs aside from side B that makes it slightly easier to combo?

Overall, I think it's even, if not in slighty in Zamus' favor if I had to give it to either if only because she can really exploit Shulk's weakness in the air hard. It's just the ground game is where you generally want to fight her against.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I actually think this is one of Shulks easier top tier match ups.

Really? I thought Shulk's best "top-tier" matchup was something like Marth or Ness.

 

[Virum]

Really? I thought Shulk's best "top-tier" matchup was something like Marth or Ness.

Marth isn't top tier in this game. Not even remotely close.

 

[Tails2Link]

I'd give this matchup a -1, at the very best. ZSS can play mind games just as much as any other character can, but the matter of us having a time limit on Speed Arte makes our life a little tricky, especially if we get caught by the blasted Paralyzer. The best we can manage is try to see if they have a set pattern or just be able to react accordingly to whatever ZSS throws our way, and hope that we have the reflexes to properly respond to it. I myself have had some difficulty with this matchup, but it's definitely not impossible. It's definitely an interesting match in my opinion. Sorry if I seemed to be repeating anything that's already been stated above, it seems like the two lengthy posts pretty much covered anything I planned to cover, especially with the u-tilt to deal with ZSS's Down-B, haha.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Welp, after being on a small hiatus of sorts from this site, I found my old write up for this MU that I never finished up, and I felt, while I main not be as much of a Shulk main now, I still owe it to fellow wielders of the Monado and my past as a dedicate Shulk to say my thoughts on this MU. Also, bear with me that I play both and , so I've dealt with the match up from both sides of the spectrum.


The Neutral
Zero Suit has a pretty bad neutral, the only real thing that covers up that flaw among her MU spread is the fact that alot of characters have a hard time reacting to her great frame data and grabs due to ground based play, but against tops like Diddy and Sheik, this flaw becomes REALLY noticable and a real weakness.
Zero's Suit's typically try to approach Shulk (or most characters) with a spaced N-air, Paralyzer, or her infamous grab. A good ZSS will try to bait you into making a mistake so she can punish you with her grab combos and juggle you endlessly. I probably don't have to say this, as it's something any Shulk should know, but Empty Hops are your friend and greatest asset in this Match Up. It's one of his only non commitment options, and in this MU it's especially helpful for baiting Zero Suit's grab and keeping the neutral even between the two of you. Another note that I want to say is that Nair is useful for baiting out grabs, since while it has the lowest end lag of any of Shulk's aerials, it looks laggy to other players, and since we know Shulk isn't commonly played, Zero Suits inexperienced in the match up will probably try to punish the Nair with a grab or dash attack if you space it well, if you're smart you can punish the aggression from her.
Another thing to note, watch out for her Zair. It's her only aerial that outranges us and her best tool aside from Nair at spacing us out. It's not too threatening in the air, but definitely watch out for it on the ground.

Typically, Speed is good for dealing with the neutral. You can wall her out with N-airs and F-airs, and you should remember that Paralyzer does really little Shield Pressure even at full charge (and that bad ZSS's will go for a Dash Grab immediately after using Paralyzer). Spacing her out when you have the opportunity is a must due to the quick Pressure she can apply to you. If she does manage to flub up a grab, having Speed activated is great for allowing hard punishes with a Kara Smash Attack (Dash and do a Smash Attack immediately after) or Grab/Pivot Grab or an N-air.
Buster has it's same uses as it usually does, good for mid percents in the neutral or to make a comeback from a stock behind, although now it's probably more useful due to the recent shieldstun changes, and how quickly you can get ZSS into killing range (as she's very light).
Also, echoing the sentiments of @Masonomace , Shout outs to Shield usage for mid percent ranges of 30-60%, as the reduction of KB makes it harder for ZSS to land her signature combos, as well as gets you safely out of the range of losing a stock early to combos like Uairx2 > Up B, and Nair/B-Throw Kill Confirms to Flip Jump. Keep in mind however, even in Shield, ZSS's experienced in the MU can still combo you with Up Smash and pressure you easily.
Jump can also be good for getting out of juggles as well trying to play mindgames with her to bait out a grab and punish.
Smash usage is obvious, pull it out against her in when she's at the 80-90 range (assuming you aren't too), to force her to play safer and pressure her into making a fatal mistake.

Her Tilts are decent, but honestly they aren't anything special, D-Tilt shielded is an easy move to punish, Pivot F-tilt is good, her U-tilt is something to watch out for as her legs have invincibility and it is a great anti air.

It's obvious to say, spacing must again be on point in this MU, especially due to Zero Suit's Up B's ridiculous KO potential. A good note for dealing with Up B, it can be smash DI'ed up and away if ZSS's misspaces it; Another good thing to remember is that if you get hit by it and the last hit connects, DI'ing downwards is your best option, as it allows you to survive for the longest time. ZSS's Up B cannot link while Shulk is in Shield btw.

Not to much to say on Flip Jump that hasn't already been said or known as a general rule of thumb when dealing with ZSS, invincible on start up, buries you, yada yada. However, something useful to be noted:
Forward Vision (and ONLY Forward Vision) can punish the burying hit of Flip Jump if you react fast enough. However, due to Flip Jump being a weird move in itself, you need to hold BACKWARDS in order to land the hit and have the Vision do it's Forward Variation. Same goes for Sonic's Spindash and Sheik's Bouncing Fish.

Edgeguarding

While Shulk excels at Edge Guarding, ZSS is one of the characters that I would not advise trying this against, for obvious reasons. She can Down B, Tether, stall her second jump for after using Down B, etc. It's hard and risky for Shulk to try to do this even with his immense range, so I'd personally just not bother challenging it unless you can react fast enough to her Down B and think you can clip it with Uair, Nair, or Fair.

As for when Zero Suit edge guards us, I'd recommend that if you don't use Jump too often in the neutral, SAVE IT'S USAGE FOR THIS ALONE. ZSS has scary edge guards with Down B obviously, and a skilled one such as Nairo can snipe you at the ledge if you aren't careful. There's also always the chance that if she has the lead, she might be gutsy and try to Dair you for a suicide kill to keep her lead (or she might be gutsy and do it on even stucks just for the lulz). Another thing to worry about is her D-Smash, as Shulk's Air Slash doesn't auto snap always, which leaves us vulnerable to it. Again, I heavily stress keeping Jump as a recovery option in this match up, it makes it THAT much easier for you to weave around Zero Suit's edge guard game and keep the match up from slipping into her favor.

Personal Thoughts

Even though Zero Suit is easily Top 10 and one of the best characters in the game, I honestly feel that this Match Up is even. Every time I've played the MU on ZSS's side, I always have to struggle to keep one step ahead because her weak neutral really shows in this match up, as Shulk has many ways to mix up in dealing with her combos/kill confirms, her edge guarding, and getting around her grabs. As Shulk, I feel like I have the advantage in keeping the MU even for the reasons I said above. As long as you keep a healthy dose of Empty Hops present in this MU and don't overcommit to his laggy aerials, I feel like you should be fine honestly.

I've even played this Match up against Disorient if that counts for anything, and as ZSS versing other Shulks on here such as erico9001 and @Locke06 , and I'm pretty sure this is definitely one of our best Top Tier match ups in the game.

I rate this MU even/50:50, or whatever you want to call it. Hope this helps anyone~

 

[Virum]

It still boggles my mind when people insinuate that ZSS has a bad neutral. This character wouldn't be universally regarded as top 5 (often regarded as top 3) in the game if she had a bad neutral as when push comes to shove a character's performance at high/top level relies on their neutral game (Sheik is the best in the game primarily for this reason). ZSS has some of the best mobility in the game combined with excellent pressure and zone breaking options and heck she even has some solid zoning options in the form of Paralyzer and ZAir considering she's a rushdown character. Her punish game is what makes her terrifying sure, but saying her neutral is bad is just wrong. Nairo wouldn't be winning tournaments with this character if her neutral was bad.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Her neutral is considerably weak compared to other characters. I understand your point Silent, but the thing is, the only reason Zero Suit is top 5 is because:
A) She has the arguably one of the best if not THE best punish game of the roster in Sm4sh
B) She has an amazing pressure/rush down game
C) She has great mobility and amazing recovery options
D) She has no trouble killing and tons of kill set ups/early kill confirms.
E) She has little to no end lag of most of her moves/attacks.

The things i mentioned above are the entire reason her neutral being a bit weaker than the rest of the cast is covered up for most of her Match Ups, as a majority of the roster runs into trouble with all of her overwhelming capabilities. But in Match Ups such as Sheik, Diddy (and Shulk in my honest opinion), their movesets and own punish games/neutrals exemplify the weaknesses of Zero Suit's Neutral game. The only reason she's not as broken as Sheik (or worse), is because she has flaws and is somewhat balanced amongst the top tiers (Fox is another example, can't edge guard and has trouble killing despite being high/top tier). Besides, landing lag frame data and speed are immensely important in this game, hell, when freaking stat changing doesn't compare to having no end lag on moves, you know that landing lag is an extremely important asset in this kind of game.

No offense to you Silent, as i do respect you, but as someone who secondaries ZSS, i think i would know how she has to play and her flaws. Her neutral is weak in general, but she has many other amazing aspects to make up for it among her MU spread. If this wasn't the case, do you really think Shulk would stack up against her when he struggles vs Sheik?


Look at the Sheik and ZSS, and how they're similar and different:

Similarities:
Strong Punish Game
Exceptional Mobility
Great Edge Guarding Game
Amazing Recoveries
Low to No End lag on most moves
Many Throw Combos
Kill Confirm/Kill Setups
Both have good OOS options

Differences:
Normal Grab vs. Tether Grab
Needles Vs. Paralyzer, Needles are safer on shield and for camping

There's many similarities between the two, but two things that majorly set them apart. And that makes all the difference. If ZSS had a normal grab, she'd probably play almost exactly like Sheik, and would be harder to deal with. But her Neutral suffers from what she lacks that Sheik has. There's no denying that.

 

[Virum]

Oh don't get me wrong when compared to characters like Sheik, Diddy, Rosa and other top tiers her neutral is comparatively weak (and of course consequently what leads her to being amazing is her exceptional punish game among other things), but as a whole I don't quite think it's right to say the character has a pretty bad neutral simply due to a combination of a lot of the factors you yourself stated. The combination of excellent mobility and frame data alongside decent hitboxes and low endlag all contribute overall to her neutral, however of course it's let down by her bad grab primarily. I'd honestly say there are at least 30 or so characters in the cast that have a weaker neutral than ZSS though.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Oh don't get me wrong when compared to characters like Sheik, Diddy, Rosa and other top tiers her neutral is comparatively weak (and of course consequently what leads her to being amazing is her exceptional punish game among other things), but as a whole I don't quite think it's right to say the character has a pretty bad neutral simply due to a combination of a lot of the factors you yourself stated. The combination of excellent mobility and frame data alongside decent hitboxes and low endlag all contribute overall to her neutral, however of course it's let down by her bad grab primarily. I'd honestly say there are at least 30 or so characters in the cast that have a weaker neutral than ZSS though.

Fair enough then. I can agree to saying that among the top tiers she has a relatively weak neutral in comparison to them, but against the majority of the cast she does better with all her assets. However, I stand by my statement that her neutral's flaws do become a bit glaring against Shulk though, hence why i feel the Match Up is even.

 

[Linkmario00]

I think the "bad neutral" argument depends a lot from the MU we're talking about. Shulk in particular, while not having the best neutral, can exploit her weaknesses in neutral. For example her Nair is one of her best if not the best tool becuase it has ton of range and low endlag, BUT Shulk easily outranges it and makes it much less useful. Plus, she can't run circle around us with her mobility becuase yeah, Jump and Speed force to fight most of the time. And so on. I agree with the MU being even.

 

[Koala-Tea]

I Personally think that the winner should be determined by how much skin they have showing. So Zss need to show some more skin because at the moment it looks like shulk's winning with his shirt off.