Shroom for the Stars: Captain Toad for Smash 4! CHAPTER 11: IT'S A MII; TOAD!

[ChikoLad]

I get what you're saying, but at the end of the day, I think most of us have our own ideas and are pretty satisfied with them.

Not that I think your moveset or anyone else's is bad, but when I was thinking of ideas for a Captain Toad moveset, I had my own ideal interpretation in mind. Especially since I seem to care more about "being in character" than most other Smash players.

 

[Munomario777]

I get what you're saying, but at the end of the day, I think most of us have our own ideas and are pretty satisfied with them.

Not that I think your moveset or anyone else's is bad, but when I was thinking of ideas for a Captain Toad moveset, I had my own ideal interpretation in mind. Especially since I seem to care more about "being in character" than most other Smash players.

Fair enough. I'd like to think my set is rather "in character"; in fact, I actually borrowed some of the ideas you posted a while back. What sort of set did you have in mind?

 

[Pacack]

Okay, that's fine. You'll need an entire moveset though, not just specials. I just thought it'd be fun for the entire thread to get together and work on a moveset together.

Well, yeah, I realize that. That was the essential framework, which was necessary to get the archetype solidified before I moved forward.

The idea of working together on a moveset is nice, but we have different beliefs on what the correct way to interpret the character in Smash is. Like, I don't think a minecart should be used because it would take too long to set up and because he never builds them, while you don't think Captain Toad should use Warp Blocks because they're out of character and he never collects them. I think that Captain Toad using a jetpack is stretching canon too much, while you think him jumping on his own is outright breaking canon.

It's all up to interpretation, and I don't think any of us should feel ashamed to want to create something uniquely ours.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, yeah, I realize that. That was the essential framework, which was necessary to get the archetype solidified before I moved forward.

The idea of working together on a moveset is nice, but we have different beliefs on what the correct way to interpret the character in Smash is. Like, I don't think a minecart should be used because it would take too long to set up and because he never builds them, while you don't think Captain Toad should use Warp Blocks because they're out of character and he never collects them. I think that Captain Toad using a jetpack is stretching canon too much, while you think him jumping on his own is outright breaking canon.

It's all up to interpretation, and I don't think any of us should feel ashamed to want to create something uniquely ours.

To be fair, a teleporting block would take a bit of time to set up, and he never builds those either, like you're saying for the minecart.

I can see what you're saying, but I think we could find a compromise. It's not so much the idea of using Warp Blocks itself that I don't like; it's more about the type of playstyle that would result in (specifically the teleportation). I could see a lot of other uses for the Warp Blocks, though. Aesthetically, they could easily work as a dodge roll, or a spot dodge, entrance animation, air dodge, etc. Functionally, the "wall" idea you had could be incorporated in the form of, say, Brick Blocks, and other items could easily help offset his poor mobility like you intended for the Warp Blocks, like a minecart. The rest of the things in your set are things that we're pretty much on the same page for, sans a few differences in the finer details and inputs. There are different ways to interpret things like this, sure, but I think there's plenty of room for compromises.

 

[Pacack]

To be fair, a teleporting block would take a bit of time to set up, and he never builds those either, like you're saying for the minecart.

I can see what you're saying, but I think we could find a compromise. It's not so much the idea of using Warp Blocks itself that I don't like; it's more about the type of playstyle that would result in (specifically the teleportation). I could see a lot of other uses for the Warp Blocks, though. Aesthetically, they could easily work as a dodge roll, or a spot dodge, entrance animation, air dodge, etc. Functionally, the "wall" idea you had could be incorporated in the form of, say, Brick Blocks, and other items could easily help offset his poor mobility like you intended for the Warp Blocks, like a minecart. The rest of the things in your set are things that we're pretty much on the same page for, sans a few differences in the finer details and inputs. There are different ways to interpret things like this, sure, but I think there's plenty of room for compromises.

The thing is that, while I could compromise with you on that, I simply disagree that a one-time teleportation between two blocks that can be knocked away by opponents is going to have a negative effect on his playstyle. It won't be overpowered, yet it won't be useless either.

It's those kind of things that are going to make our movesets differ, and I'm okay with that.

 

[Munomario777]

The thing is that, while I could compromise with you on that, I simply disagree that a one-time teleportation between two blocks that can be knocked away by opponents is going to have a negative effect on his playstyle. It won't be overpowered, yet it won't be useless either.

It's those kind of things that are going to make our movesets differ, and I'm okay with that.

You know, there might be a way we could implement that sort of thing, now that I think about it. It might be a bit strange, but what if the roll could be charged in some way, and doing so would have Captain Toad throw a teleportation box ahead as a sort of projectile (perhaps not one that deals damage, though) that can be knocked away by opponents? And then he could charge the roll again to teleport to it, even while the box is in midair? It'd be an interesting movement option for sure, and I don't think there's really anything else like it in Smash. Of course, with this idea, just tapping the roll button would result in a normal dodge roll. What do you think?

 

[Pacack]

You know, there might be a way we could implement that sort of thing, now that I think about it. It might be a bit strange, but what if the roll could be charged in some way, and doing so would have Captain Toad throw a teleportation box ahead as a sort of projectile (perhaps not one that deals damage, though) that can be knocked away by opponents? And then he could charge the roll again to teleport to it, even while the box is in midair? It'd be an interesting movement option for sure, and I don't think there's really anything else like it in Smash. Of course, with this idea, just tapping the roll button would result in a normal dodge roll. What do you think?

I'm personally of the opinion that the playstyle, and not the button inputs, should be what's interesting (and perhaps even complicated). As such, no, I wouldn't be doing something like that.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm personally of the opinion that the playstyle, and not the button inputs, should be what's interesting (and perhaps even complicated). As such, no, I wouldn't be doing something like that.

The point here wasn't to have interesting button inputs; that's Ryu's job. The point here was to fit both your ideas and my ideas into the same moveset, without losing any special moves or anything. An interesting, somewhat complex playstyle is exactly what I'm aiming for.

 

[Pacack]

The point here wasn't to have interesting button inputs; that's Ryu's job. The point here was to fit both your ideas and my ideas into the same moveset, without losing any special moves or anything. An interesting, somewhat complex playstyle is exactly what I'm aiming for.

Of course, I understand what you were going for. But it would be better implemented as a smash or something than with the roll button.

But having both the minecart and the warp blocks might be a little much, honestly. If you're going to include the minecart concept, focus primarily on that.

If you're wanting something slightly more complex than what you have, then maybe have his side smash drop a regular block?

 

[Munomario777]

Of course, I understand what you were going for. But it would be better implemented as a smash or something than with the roll button.

Good point.

But having both the minecart and the warp blocks might be a little much, honestly. If you're going to include the minecart concept, focus primarily on that.

True. I personally prefer the minecart idea for a few reasons:

• It's more of an investment. While it may take some time to set up the track, it's worth doing for the extra movement speed. It more fits the idea of building things, as it's actually being, well, built, piece by piece.
• The drawbacks come a bit more naturally. Minecarts could obviously be ridden by anyone, and would certainly hurt if one rammed into you, but for the teleporting boxes, it doesn't seem that obvious that it can get knocked around; you can't in 3D World after all.
• It's a lot more versatile. Whereas the teleporting boxes seem like they would really only be good for getting out of a heated situation, as there is quite a bit of lag as you say, a minecart can be used for approaching, as you're riding a moving hitbox and can use attacks as well. Plus, you can even send unwary opponents to their doom if they're not careful, by breaking the track! This combined with the turnip cannons and mushroom platforms really opens up a lot of creative combinations and strategies.
• A minor thing, but I find it a bit easier to adapt the minecarts into Captain Toad's personality. The tracks could fall out of his backpack accidentally, capturing his "essence". Throwing the box, on the other hand, is more deliberate.

That's just my take on it though. In my opinion, the minecart is a lot more open ended, and allows for a lot more options as far as what Captain Toad can do.

If you're wanting something slightly more complex than what you have, then maybe have his side smash drop a regular block?

I currently have a down tilt that creates a Brick Block actually, as Sonicbrawler suggested.

 

[Pacack]

True. I personally prefer the minecart idea for a few reasons:

• It's more of an investment. While it may take some time to set up the track, it's worth doing for the extra movement speed. It more fits the idea of building things, as it's actually being, well, built, piece by piece.

• The drawbacks come a bit more naturally. Minecarts could obviously be ridden by anyone, and would certainly hurt if one rammed into you, but for the teleporting boxes, it doesn't seem that obvious that it can get knocked around; you can't in 3D World after all.

I dislike it because it requires too much of an investment. During a heated battle, setting up a platform, blocks, and a railway reliably is too much to expect from the player. The warp blocks, on the other hand, combine the functionality of the blocks and the minecart to a single action, but make them more punishable and less permanent as a result.

• It's a lot more versatile. Whereas the teleporting boxes seem like they would really only be good for getting out of a heated situation, as there is quite a bit of lag as you say, a minecart can be used for approaching, as you're riding a moving hitbox and can use attacks as well. Plus, you can even send unwary opponents to their doom if they're not careful, by breaking the track! This combined with the turnip cannons and mushroom platforms really opens up a lot of creative combinations and strategies.

On this, I think we had a bit of a misunderstanding. While the warping would have lag to prevent it from being instantaneous, it would not have a large amount of lag, so it indeed would be an option for approaches, and the teleportation could actually be started as the second block is airborne by interacting with the second one.

Along with this, I'm thinking that the blocks should be able to be a mildly damaging hitbox along the ground when either Captain Toad or his opponents hit it along the ground, which would make it a moving hitbox as well.

• A minor thing, but I find it a bit easier to adapt the minecarts into Captain Toad's personality. The tracks could fall out of his backpack accidentally, capturing his "essence". Throwing the box, on the other hand, is more deliberate.

Again, I would argue that you place too much emphasis on how much Captain Toad does on accident versus how much he does on purpose. But that's subjective.

That's just my take on it though. In my opinion, the minecart is a lot more open ended, and allows for a lot more options as far as what Captain Toad can do.

Summary: with my slightly more projectile-based playstyle, my Captain Toad will control area in an admittedly less open-ended way over a greater area that requires less commitment. This will allow opponents to combat him more and makes Captain Toad's matchups less polarizing. I would argue that you give better stage control to him through his specials, but that it requires too much commitment to set up.

 

[Munomario777]

I dislike it because it requires too much of an investment. During a heated battle, setting up a platform, blocks, and a railway reliably is too much to expect from the player. The warp blocks, on the other hand, combine the functionality of the blocks and the minecart to a single action, but make them more punishable and less permanent as a result.

It could easily be set up between stocks, or while your opponent is offstage. I can see where you're coming from, though.

On this, I think we had a bit of a misunderstanding. While the warping would have lag to prevent it from being instantaneous, it would not have a large amount of lag, so it indeed would be an option for approaches, and the teleportation could actually be started as the second block is airborne by interacting with the second one.

I still don't see it being useful for approaches, since it can be hit away by opponents if it comes close.

Along with this, I'm thinking that the blocks should be able to be a mildly damaging hitbox along the ground when either Captain Toad or his opponents hit it along the ground, which would make it a moving hitbox as well.

The minecart would be a bit more useful I feel, since it's always going back and forth.

Summary: with my slightly more projectile-based playstyle, my Captain Toad will control area in an admittedly less open-ended way over a greater area that requires less commitment. This will allow opponents to combat him more and makes Captain Toad's matchups less polarizing. I would argue that you give better stage control to him through his specials, but that it requires too much commitment to set up.

The minecart is the only one that would require any real time to set up (the platforms and cannons come out of the ground fairly quickly). The minecart is more long term than the teleportation box (it doesn't disappear as soon as you use it), so it would seem to make sense for it to take a bit longer to make since it's an active, moving hitbox. You only have to do it once, after all. If you feel that it is an issue, though, I could perhaps speed up the rate that Captain Toad moves at while laying down the tracks.

I'm not quite sure how well a projectile based playstyle would mesh with teleportation, by the way, since you're essentially creating a camper that can retreat as soon as he's approached, which might be a pain to fight against.

 

[Pacack]

It could easily be set up between stocks, or while your opponent is offstage. I can see where you're coming from, though.

Of course.

I still don't see it being useful for approaches, since it can be hit away by opponents if it comes close.

True. Maybe it would clank when it's a hitbox, but not when it's simply on the ground?

The minecart would be a bit more useful I feel, since it's always going back and forth.

It would be once it got set up.

The minecart is the only one that would require any real time to set up (the platforms and cannons come out of the ground fairly quickly). The minecart is more long term than the teleportation box (it doesn't disappear as soon as you use it), so it would seem to make sense for it to take a bit longer to make since it's an active, moving hitbox. You only have to do it once, after all. If you feel that it is an issue, though, I could perhaps speed up the rate that Captain Toad moves at while laying down the tracks.

It doesn't disappear when Captain Toad loses a stock?

The issue that I'm having with the entire minecart idea so far is that, while incredibly useful, it's only balanced by being very difficult to set up. Because of that, I don't see why the player wouldn't just go for the other options over the more frustrating one.

I'm not quite sure how well a projectile based playstyle would mesh with teleportation, by the way, since you're essentially creating a camper that can retreat as soon as he's approached, which might be a pain to fight against.

Because each projectile would cover only a single area at a time, and because he would specifically be designed in a way that he would have to create cover before throwing out his projectile options (all of my ideas go in an arc, but at different distances) or risk being comboed off the stage to his death. The ability to traverse from point A to point B also gets rid of his cover entirely, which is a huge risk for him.

 

[Munomario777]

Of course.

True. Maybe it would clank when it's a hitbox, but not when it's simply on the ground?

Then they could simply hit it away when it lands.

It would be once it got set up.

It doesn't disappear when Captain Toad loses a stock?

No, it doesn't.

The issue that I'm having with the entire minecart idea so far is that, while incredibly useful, it's only balanced by being very difficult to set up. Because of that, I don't see why the player wouldn't just go for the other options over the more frustrating one.

I wouldn't say that it's only balanced by its setup. It can hit Captain Toad, and opponents can also make use of it.

The reason to use the minecart is because it's the only tool that allows Captain Toad to traverse the stage quickly and easily (as in, horizontally).

Because each projectile would cover only a single area at a time, and because he would specifically be designed in a way that he would have to create cover before throwing out his projectile options (all of my ideas go in an arc, but at different distances) or risk being comboed off the stage to his death. The ability to traverse from point A to point B also gets rid of his cover entirely, which is a huge risk for him.

I don't see why he'd need to create cover when he can just teleport to the other side of the stage. I guess you'd need to create the rest of the set for me to really understand what you're going for with playstyle and all, though.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Of course.

True. Maybe it would clank when it's a hitbox, but not when it's simply on the ground?


It would be once it got set up.


It doesn't disappear when Captain Toad loses a stock?

The issue that I'm having with the entire minecart idea so far is that, while incredibly useful, it's only balanced by being very difficult to set up. Because of that, I don't see why the player wouldn't just go for the other options over the more frustrating one.


Because each projectile would cover only a single area at a time, and because he would specifically be designed in a way that he would have to create cover before throwing out his projectile options (all of my ideas go in an arc, but at different distances) or risk being comboed off the stage to his death. The ability to traverse from point A to point B also gets rid of his cover entirely, which is a huge risk for him.

Because there aren't really.
Captain Toad would have a really bad mobility, and the minecart would go very fast.

 

[Pacack]

Then they could simply hit it away when it lands.

True.

What do you think of the balance concept of Captain Toad not being able to throw the block (merely place it down), but with the tradeoff of it not being possible for opponents to hit it?

No, it doesn't.

I wouldn't say that it's only balanced by its setup. It can hit Captain Toad, and opponents can also make use of it.

The reason to use the minecart is because it's the only tool that allows Captain Toad to traverse the stage quickly and easily (as in, horizontally).

Okay, I think I get what you're going for, then. Wouldn't opponents be able to make better use of it than Captain Toad himself could because of their better mobility allowing them to reach it first, though?

I don't see why he'd need to create cover when he can just teleport to the other side of the stage. I guess you'd need to create the rest of the set for me to really understand what you're going for with playstyle and all, though.

Well, the projectiles that he has leave openings that are simple for opponents to get into if Captain Toad doesn't have the walls provided by the blocks. But it might be better balanced with the above idea.

 

[Munomario777]

True.

What do you think of the balance concept of Captain Toad not being able to throw the block (merely place it down), but with the tradeoff of it not being possible for opponents to hit it?

Then you've got a near-impenetrable fortress surrounding Captain Toad, which seems both out of character and broken/annoying to fight against.

Okay, I think I get what you're going for, then. Wouldn't opponents be able to make better use of it than Captain Toad himself could because of their better mobility allowing them to reach it first, though?

You don't really need excellent mobility to board the minecart. After all, you can grab the ledges, and it's not that tall to begin with. I could perhaps make it so that you can board it before it starts moving, though.

 

[Pacack]

Then you've got a near-impenetrable fortress surrounding Captain Toad, which seems both out of character and broken/annoying to fight against.

Then how about not possible to throw, but still possible to knock away by all characters?

You don't really need excellent mobility to board the minecart. After all, you can grab the ledges, and it's not that tall to begin with. I could perhaps make it so that you can board it before it starts moving, though.

Can more than one character board the minecart at once?


Also, I need a general opinion from the thread here. @ YoshiandToad , I'd appreciate your input specifically since I've known you forever.

Current Toads in Super Smash Bros have a size that's just too small for a heavyweight fighter to take on.

Spoiler: Images

Following canon sizes, Toad and Captain Toad specifically are slightly taller than this depiction, yet still are kind of small for Smash standards.

Spoiler

(Credit to @Angelglory for this, it's a canon size comparison.)

So, I decided to look at other sources, and found that the New Super Mario Bros. series depicts the Toads as being only very slightly shorter than Mario:

Would it be acceptable to have Captain Toad at this height in Smash Bros. to make him the proper size for a heavyweight fighter, or should I shrink him down a tad from this and aim for something between the canon and New Super Mario Bros. sizes?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Then how about not possible to throw, but still possible to knock away by all characters?


Can more than one character board the minecart at once?

Also, I need a general opinion from the thread here. @ YoshiandToad , I'd appreciate your input specifically since I've known you forever.


Toads in general have a set size in Super Smash Bros that's just too small to be a heavyweight fighter.

Spoiler: Images

Following canon sizes, Toad and Captain Toad specifically are slightly taller than this depiction, yet still are kind of small for Smash standards.

Spoiler

(Credit to @Angelglory for this, it's a canon size comparison.)

So, I decided to look at other sources, and found that the New Super Mario Bros. series depicts the Toads as being only very slightly shorter than Mario:

Would it be acceptable to have Captain Toad at this height in Smash Bros. to make him the proper size for a heavyweight fighter, or should I shrink him down a tad from this and aim for something between the canon and New Super Mario Bros. sizes?

I think 3D World Toad's size in proportion to Mario would be the best

 

[Munomario777]

Then how about not possible to throw, but still possible to knock away by all characters?

Well, then you might as well just have a regular Brick Block or something.

Can more than one character board the minecart at once?

It acts like a platform, so yes if there's enough room.

Also, I need a general opinion from the thread here. @ YoshiandToad , I'd appreciate your input specifically since I've known you forever.

Current Toads in Super Smash Bros have a size that's just too small for a heavyweight fighter to take on.

Spoiler: Images

Following canon sizes, Toad and Captain Toad specifically are slightly taller than this depiction, yet still are kind of small for Smash standards.

Spoiler

(Credit to @Angelglory for this, it's a canon size comparison.)

So, I decided to look at other sources, and found that the New Super Mario Bros. series depicts the Toads as being only very slightly shorter than Mario:

Would it be acceptable to have Captain Toad at this height in Smash Bros. to make him the proper size for a heavyweight fighter, or should I shrink him down a tad from this and aim for something between the canon and New Super Mario Bros. sizes?

I think the NSMB/3D World size would be best.

 

[Pacack]

I think 3D World Toad's size in proportion to Mario would be the best

Well, then you might as well just have a regular Brick Block or something.

It acts like a platform, so yes if there's enough room.

I think the NSMB/3D World size would be best.

Darkest blue is NSMB, medium is Galaxy, lightest is Smash.

Does this look okay? It's a slight compromise.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Actually, you might compare heights indirectly by comparing Captain Toad's height with a Goomba and then compare a Goomba's height with Mario's.

Or use the SM3DW's levels in Treasure Tracker

 

[Pacack]

Actually, you might compare heights indirectly by comparing Captain Toad's height with a Goomba and then compare a Goomba's height with Mario's.

Or use the SM3DW's levels in Treasure Tracker

Give me a moment and I'll do that.

Also, here's the same concept with him larger.

 

[Munomario777]

Darkest blue is NSMB, medium is Galaxy, lightest is Smash.

Does this look okay? It's a slight compromise.

Looks good!

 

[Pacack]

Looks good!

Does it look ideal to you, or should it be a tad larger?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

LOL, Captain Toad is as big as Mario if the 3D World levels in CT:TT are to be believed.

 

[Munomario777]

Does it look ideal to you, or should it be a tad larger?

Toads in general seem to be rather short, so I think this is fine. I think it's fine to deviate a bit from canon if it represents the character well; that's happened a lot in Smash before after all.

 

[Pacack]

This is shorter than A, but taller than B. Thoughts?

 

[Munomario777]

Looks great!

 

[Pacack]

Looks great!

Okay, so two other concept images.

This is a better size comparison that includes both Mario and Bowser:

Spoiler

This is a concept of the wall that Captain Toad can set up:

Spoiler

Now I'm thinking that I should make the blocks:
A: placed where Captain Toad is standing, and not throwable. (to prevent excessive runaway play)
B: possible to hit and make a weak projectile by any character. (to create an opening for Captain Toad's opponents)
C: interactable a limited number of times (3?), not a single time. (to encourage use of teleportation mechanic)
D: usable by any character. (to make playing against the character interesting for opponents and to create potential mindgame opportunities)
E: not on a timer. (for the sake of usability and because of the durability mechanic)

Thoughts?

Note: I'll also be giving Toad the Power Squat Jump as an alternate Up B when on the stage (after the platform is in effect) so that he can make his way up when necessary.

 

[Munomario777]

Okay, so two other concept images.

This is a better size comparison that includes both Mario and Bowser:

Spoiler

Nice.

This is a concept of the wall that Captain Toad can set up:

Spoiler

Now I'm thinking that I should make the blocks:
A: placed where Captain Toad is standing, and not throwable. (to prevent excessive runaway play)
B: possible to hit and make a weak projectile by any character. (to create an opening for Captain Toad's opponents)
C: interactable a limited number of times (3?), not a single time. (to encourage use of teleportation mechanic)
D: usable by any character. (to make playing against the character interesting for opponents and to create potential mindgame opportunities)
E: not on a timer. (for the sake of usability and because of the durability mechanic)

Thoughts?

You're telling me that that's supposed to protect him? The blocks are tiny. They won't be blocking any projectiles anytime soon, and if they do get hit, it still harms Captain Toad. If he can't throw them, they're terrible for approaches, since they can get knocked away. He won't be escaping many tough situations either unless he happens to be near a box, and the other one hasn't gotten knocked away. They're not even worth using when recovering, since it's so predictable and you can't mix up your recovery! Honestly, these just seem worthless. This is why I don't like the idea of using these boxes; when they're not overpowered and annoying to fight against, they're underpowered and barely worth using.

Note: I'll also be giving Toad the Power Squat Jump as an alternate Up B when on the stage (after the platform is in effect) so that he can make his way up when necessary.

So you're giving a character who canonically cannot jump, a super high jump for an up special? Um... okay...

 

[Pacack]

You're telling me that that's supposed to protect him? The blocks are tiny. They won't be blocking any projectiles anytime soon, and if they do get hit, it still harms Captain Toad. If he can't throw them, they're terrible for approaches, since they can get knocked away. He won't be escaping many tough situations either unless he happens to be near a box, and the other one hasn't gotten knocked away. They're not even worth using when recovering, since it's so predictable and you can't mix up your recovery! Honestly, these just seem worthless. This is why I don't like the idea of using these boxes; when they're not overpowered and annoying to fight against, they're underpowered and barely worth using.

...So that's why we've been having such a difficult time communicating.

My concept of Captain Toad is a character that thrives on limiting options and punishing the approaches that his opponents are forced to take. He does not use his platform and blocks to wall himself off from opponents completely, but rather modifies the terrain so that opponents have to play a specific way against him that he can counter.

With the layout above, an opponent that wants to approach has to come in from the side and do one of two things.

A: Come head on and hit the Warp Box.
B: Jump through the opening.

Captain Toad's job is to predict which of these options the opponent is opting for, then cover that one and do damage and go in and do damage up close after hitting from afar.

Note that Captain Toad in my mind would still only have about 2 more projectile moves. Maybe only 1. They just cover different parts of the air. The rest is up close and personal.

Note: I am flirting with the idea of giving him an immovable brick block to make camping out a bit more of a legitimate strategy, but that would make the opponent's options limited to only one thing (B), which would then be possible to cover constantly with turnip throw, ergo making Toad's fortress impenetrable.

So you're giving a character who canonically cannot jump, a super high jump for an up special? Um... okay...

Not super high. It would take about three seconds to charge, and could then be used to get to the top of the platform to attack aerial foes from the platform as you suggested.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

To differentiate UpSmash from UpB, I've decided UpB to go diagonal, like the Pits UpB (but not as high)

 

[Munomario777]

...So that's why we've been having such a difficult time communicating.

My concept of Captain Toad is a character that thrives on limiting options and punishing the approaches that his opponents are forced to take. He does not use his platform and blocks to wall himself off from opponents completely, but rather modifies the terrain so that opponents have to play a specific way against him that he can counter.

With the layout above, an opponent that wants to approach has to come in from the side and do one of two things.

A: Come head on and hit the Warp Box.
B: Jump through the opening.

Captain Toad's job is to predict which of these options the opponent is opting for, then cover that one and do damage and go in and do damage up close after hitting from afar.

Note that Captain Toad in my mind would still only have about 2 more projectile moves. Maybe only 1. They just cover different parts of the air. The rest is up close and personal.

Hm. I'm not quite sure how to feel about this. Limiting options by hiding in a fort type thing like this feels a bit... odd to me. For starters, characters like, say, Little Mac will have almost no chance against Captain Toad once he puts this up, since the air option doesn't work out well for him at all (for obvious reasons), he'll always have to attack on the ground, and get punished.

This also doesn't really feel like it fits Captain Toad. He never really limits the opponent's options; if anything, in his games, it's his own options that are limited. If you're giving Captain Toad a method of teleportation with the warp boxes, what's the point when his best strategy is to camp out in his little fortress? At this point they may as well just be Brick Blocks or something.

It also seems like it, again, wouldn't be very fun to fight against Captain Toad. You've got only two options, and he's got a one-in-two chance of hitting you and punishing. Not only that, but if he misses, Captain Toad seems like he could get away with it scot-free. If they attack the box and Captain Toad thinks they're approaching with a jump, he could just jump and throw out an aerial to punish. If they hit the box, then, he's in the air, so it goes under and misses. If he thinks they'll hit the box but they instead go in the air, a turnip would seem to cover both options fairly well, no? Limiting a player's options just doesn't seem... fun to me.

Note: I am flirting with the idea of giving him an immovable brick block to make camping out a bit more of a legitimate strategy, but that would make the opponent's options limited to only one thing (B), which would then be possible to cover constantly with turnip throw, ergo making Toad's fortress impenetrable.

Yeah, that's a bad idea.

Not super high. It would take about three seconds to charge, and could then be used to get to the top of the platform to attack aerial foes from the platform as you suggested.

Couldn't he just jump up to the platform normally?

 

[ChikoLad]

Take a break from debate, have a light hearted post:

I found a leaked screenshot of a Captain Toad sequel...

Spoiler

Captain Toad: Amiibo Hunter

Cat Rosalina is the bad guy because cats love their shinies!

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Saving the thread from the second page by posting my moveset.
Only stats, flavour (more text, colors, good layout) and default animations are yet to be made.

Would be great if you gave feedback.
Not only on the moves, but also if the moves are described well.
The goal is to submit it to Make Your Move.

Playstyle:
Captain Toad is slow and cannot jump high at all, and his attack speed is mediocre.
However, he gains his mobility elsewhere, namely through his Specials and Smashes.

His specials are Tracker Contraptions, special contraptions that make him faster, make him jump higher and can give him new attack strategies.
Think of the contraptions as if they're Monado Arts: The best at their job, but bound to a specific situation, or in this case, location.

While Captain Toad can't to much on his own, he can traverse the stage very efficiently through the use of his contraptions, perhaps even faster than the other characters!

Now he can attack the opponent like any other character can.

A good Captain would track his way through the stage, setting up his killer apps on the right places, so he can get anywhere.

Statistics:
Weight: Samus
Size: a bit shorter than Mario
Traction: Lucario
Ground Speed: Villager
Jump Height: Mr. Game & Watch
Air Speed: King Dedede
Fall Speed: Fox

Captain Toad, while having some adjustments made for Smash, is mostly faithful to his appearances in his games. He's heavy due to his backpack, his size is consistent, he has high ground control and traction, he has a decent ground speed (although nothing to boast about), his air speed is abysmal, he falls like a rock, and his jump height is-- wait, Captain Toad can't jump! That's his whole gimmick! Well, Captain Toad is never one to enter an adventure unprepared, so he got some help from his fellow Toad Brigade members and his friends the Lumas (who are rather good at the mechanical side of things), and they outfitted his backpack with a jetpack! He now has two thrusters on the underside of his backpack, and they only reveal themselves when he jumps. It's more of a steady ascension than one boost as a result of the thrusters, somewhat like Mewtwo's double jump. True to his games, though, he does lack a double jump, limiting his options in comparison to the rest of the cast (although he's not too horribly handicapped, due to things you'll see later on).

Flavor
Standing:
words
Walking:
Captain Toad walks forwards calmly, taking in his surroundings.
Running:
Captain Toad walks forwards at a slightly more brisk pace, with a more determined look on his face.
Dashing:
Captain Toad grips the straps of his backpack and dashes forwards, leaning back a bit with a slightly frightened, but still brave, look on his face.
Crouching:
Captain Toad curls up in a ball and shivers, bowing his head down.
Jump:
Captain Toad can't jump in his games, but thanks to the thrusters in his backpack/jetpack, he can get a bit of airtime here. His jump is actually a steady ascension similar to Mewtwo's double jump as a result of this.
Aerial Movement:
Captain Toad swings his arms and legs wildly, with an afraid, but excited look on his face.
Holding an Item:
words
Shielding:
Captain Toad puts his hands before his eyes and bends himself a bit down.
Spot Dodge:
Captain Toad holds his hands for his eyes and steps backwards
Dodge Roll:
words
Air Dodge:
wurdss
Entrance Animation:
A Mystery Box is seen on the battlefield. It then explodes into a puff of smoke and confetti galore, revealing none other than the fearless Captain Toad! He looks to either side, holding his hand above his eyes, to get familiar with his new surroundings, and then preps for battle.

Taunts:
Up Taunt:
Captain Toad picks up a Power Star from his backpack, struggles to catch it, showing it off to the camera and puts it back in his backpack again

Side Taunt:
Captain Toad claps happily.

Down Taunt:
The Jetpack lifts Captain Toad up, making him scared, before he falls down.

Death Sound:
words

Victory Pose:
words

Specials:
Neutral Special:
Super Pickaxe

Captain Toad stretches it's arm backwards in its backpack and stretches them out forward again with a Pickaxe in his hands.
The Pickaxe breaks every contraption Captain Toad makes and deals 10% damage om the intial hit with high knockback
If the button is held, Captain Toad keeps swinging the Pickaxe up and down, dealing 5% damage per hit with medium knockback, still breaking any contraption.

This move is key in mastering Captain Toad, as this move is the key to mastering his contraptions.
While opponents can use the contraptions too, Captain Toad can destroy the contraptions and the master plan of the opponents with this move.
Destroy minecarts that are abused by Rushdown character and destroy propellor platforms that opponents use to recover

Aside from foiling plans, the Pickaxe can also be used to adjust your own plans.
Long-ranged Minecarts can be axed from the Battlefield in favor of a short-ranged blockade.
Turnip Turrets that face the wrong way, or stand in a bad place can be axed.
Propellor Platforms not set up properly can be axed too in favor of a working design.


Side Special:
Minecart

Captain Toad takes his backpack and walks while shaking it up and down.
As long as the button is held, little pieces of minecart track fall out, making the Captain surprised.
These pieces of tracks deal 2% damage with no knockback, so you could potentionally combo the opponent
When the button is released, a minecart falls out.
This minecart deals 20% damage and kills at 140%

After the minecart is dropped down, it will drive around on the track on itself at the speed of Charizard like Gogoat.
The minecart acts as a platform and can be rode.

When the Minecart hits an opponent in this state, it deals 5% and hits opponents up slightly.

Only one minecart can be up per time and the move will do nothing when used when an old Minecart is up.
The Minecart is on-stage twice as long as Pac-Man's Hydrant

The Minecart acts as a substitute for Captain Toad's low speed and as an obstacle for the opponent.
The player can choose for a short track that blocks a specific part of the stage, or for a stage-wide steaming hype-train that Captain Toad can enter.

But that's not all, Captain Toad is smart and can decide to use it as a vehicle for his other contraptions.

The Minecart can not be used aerially, instead Captain Toad can use the following special:

Up Special:
Propellor Platform

Captain Toad curls up in a ball all scared, when suddenly a Propellor Platform rises him diagonally upwards or straight up, depending on which way you aim it, as long as Captain Toad presses the B Button, with a cap at the height of Pit's Up B.
The platform travels fairly quicly though, so decide fast.

When the button is released, the propellor platform is set down and can't travel up any further.
Select the height that's comfortable to your playstyle!
Press the button very long for aerial chases, and release the button very soon for having a platform at short hop height.

Speaking about heights, poor Captain is afraid of heights, so he's holding his bag in front of him the whole time.
This "attack" deals medium knockback and 3% damage and can be aimed.

The facing-side of the platform has a hitbox that deals 5% damage and medium knockback.

Two propellor platforms can be up at the same time, with the second one being made and controlled by "smashing" UpB while one platform is on-stage.

The platform will travel back slowly to the intial position if the platform isn't used and can be made rise again at the speed of Toon Link's aerial Hurricane Spin by pressing UpB, repeating the cycle.
If the propellor platform is at its peak, Captain Toad can press UpB to make them speed to their intial position.

The Platforms are on-stage twice as long as Pac-Man's Hydrant.

Captain Toad can use these platforms as a substitute for his bad aerial maneuvrability.
He can jump on them, travel over the opponents and come back at the other side.
He can also jump from one platform to the other, or use the platform to jump into a minecart.
Speaking of the minecart, you can't place platforms on them, but you can plant the next contraption on both!

Down Special:
Turnip Turret:

Captain Toad shakes its backpack up and down, creating a Turnip Turret.
The Turnip Turret shoots turnips every two seconds in spurts of three.
These turnips are shot in a straight line and deal 2% damage and deal low knockback, travelling half of Battlefield.

Sometimes, instead of shooting a spurt of three turnips, the turret shoots one big turnip that deals 10% damage, but travels as slow as Falco's laser.

The Turnip Turret breaks if opponents deal 15% or more damage to it.

When Captain Toad is standing next to the turret, the turret acts more like Auto-Reticle, "homing in" on opponents.

Only one Turnip Turret can be up at the same time and the move will do nothing when a turret is already on the field.
The Turret is on-stage twice as long as Pac-Man's Hydrant.

While the contraption itself is a ordinary turret, combinating it with other contraptions makes it a force to be reckoned with!
Try setting one on a diagonal propellor platform.
When he platform resets to its intial position, it travels pretty slow, giving it maximum coverage for the Turret

The Minecart also can be used to improve the Turnip Turret, as it won't be stationary anymore.

Smashes
Forward Smash:

Captain Toad tries to pluck a crop from the ground.
What he doesn't know is that the crop gets bigger the more he charges!
When the player releases the Smash, Captain Toad finally plucks the big turnip, dealing 7% uncharged and light knockback.
Now Captain Toad can walk forwards with his turnip, throwing it forwards with another press off the button.
The bigger the turnip though, the slower the stroll, so be careful!
The throw of the turnip deals 7% damage uncharged and light knockback, though it has the benfit of quickly gaining more knockback as it charges.

Up Smash:

Captain Toad holds his open backpack above him and looks at it.
Too bad for the Captain, a Clear Pipe Cannon comes out and traps Captain Toad
While Captain Toad holds his hands for his eyes, scared for the ride, the clear pipe cannon shoots him straight up.
The Captain spins around while being shot, dealing 15% damage total and kills vertically at 120%.
Captain Toad is shot the length comparable to the lenght Mega Man's uncharged forward smash travels.

Down Smash:

Captain Toad gets dizzy, indicated by the swirls around his head, and spins around four times.
The backpack turns into a hitbox.

There's one strong, intial hit when Captain Toad starts spinning, dealing 10% damage and killing at 130%, after that the move turns weaker.
During this time, the backpack deals 5% damage and the move kills at 140%
After two spins, Captain Toad can move while spinning ariound

Normals
Jab
Captain Toad unties his backpack and shakes it up and down repeatedly.

Forward Tilt
Captain Toad gets very scared of the nearing opponent, and hides behind his backpack as a last reflex, pushing it forward as if it was poisonous.
He doesn't even look at the opponent getting hit!
The move does 6% damage and decent knockback.

Up Tilt
Captain Toad, wait, Captain Toad does nothing with this move!
Instead, a Piranha Plant breaks out of his backpack, biting opponents.
This attack deals 8%, but little knockback, making it eglible for comboes.
Captain Toad then notices something and decides to look back, but then the Piranha already disappeared.

Down Tilt
Suddenly, a crop comes above ground.
Captain Toad decides to pluck it, dealing 3% damage to nearby opponents, but no knockback.
When he has plucked the reward, he dumps it onto opponents, dealing 5% damage and differing knockback
Captain Toad can namely pluck different rewards, all dealing different knockbacks.
The diamond has the highest knockback, killing at 140%, the turnip is somewhat weaker and deals medium knockback and the coin is the weakest with low knockback, but acts as a multihit attack as it spins.

Dash Attack
Captain Toad stumbles, but luckily, a Clear Pipe the lenght of a Battlefield platform forms itself as Captain Toad cruises through it, dealing 7% damage and medium knockback
This Clear Pipe transports Captain Toad through the pipe before Captain Toad falls out.

Aerials
Neutral Aerial
A diamond suddenly appears in Captain Toad's hands, who adores his new treasure.
Too bad for Captain Toad, the weight of the diamond drags Captain Toad along, which causes Captain Toad to spin around.
After two spins, that deals 8% damage each with each spin and medium knockback, Captain Toad drops the Diamond in his backpack.

Forward Aerial
Captain Toad unties his backpack and swings it forwards with both hands.
Deals 10% damage with great knockback.

Back Aerial
Captain Toad unties his backpack and swings it with one hand, dealing 5% damage and light knockback.

Up Aerial
A power star flies out of Captain Toad's backpack, at incredible speed, to make it look like it's summoned.
Luckily for him, he manages to catch the star.
The real star here is the fact that the Captain uses the newfound star to attack opponents, hitting them with the top "spike" while he holds the star at it's bottom "spikes"

This attack deals 9% damage and heavy knockback, potentionally Star KO'ing opponents that are caught very high.

It's Captain Toad's best kill move, but can only be landed with smart use of his contraptions.

Down Aerial
Captain Toad does nothing in this move!
His backpack however, breaks from all the weight.
This causes a Mega Turnip the size of Bowser Jr. to fall out and damage opponents for 9% damage.
The Turnip falls to the ground rather quickly and dissappears when it hits the ground or a shield.
The Turnip also deals medium upwards knockback.

Grab Game
Grab
A Clear Pipe arises from the ground, capturing opponent's inside.
The grab is not the fastest, but makes up for it for the utility of the throws.

Pummel
Captain Toad memorises this Clear Pipe as the Clear Pipe that got him in the Sprixie Kingdom.
He also remembers that Mario and Luigi fixed it with their hammers and comes to the idea to hammer the pipe.
Captain Toad doesn't have a hammer though and instead hits opponents with his Pickaxe.
The animation resembles the intro of 3D World, switching sides of the pipe every hit.

Forward Throw
Captain Toad pushes the Clear Pipe to the direction chosen, causing the pipe to bend and launch the opponent that way.
The throw isn't his strongest, but suffices as a way to get opponents off stage.

Back Throw
The Clear Pipe sprouts a cannon, scaring Captain Toad, and launches the opponent backwards, which causes Captain Toad to clap and jump up and down.
And for a very good reason, since this throw is a very strong KO move, killing at 130%

Up Throw
Captain Toad decides to look down the pipe to see if something is coming upwards.
We as Mario fans know that when there's a pipe, there's a piranha plant.
But Captain Toad doesn't, and gets scared by the Piranha Plant that comes up, damaging opponents for 14% damage in a 4-hit bite combo, before ending with a last bite for decent knockback.

Too bad Captain Toad doesn't look until the move is done.

Down Throw
Somewhat less dangerous than the Piranha Plants are the Fuzzies that inhabit the Clear Pipes.
One of these comes up and hits the opponents.
It doesn't do much damage or knockback and only throws the opponent right in front of Captain Toad, standing behind the pipe.
​

 

[Munomario777]

@ WeirdChillFever

What I like:

• Clear pipe for a grab works out well, and I like the throws.
• The attacks that use his backpack work well for what they are, and it's a good way for the Captain to attack (given that the backpack is his only non-throwing attack in his game).

What I don't like:

• Up smash should just be part of up special. It's practically useless as is since it disappears after three seconds, and it goes against Captain Toad's playstyle. The size of the shroom also makes it rather overpowered. There's no way to approach Captain Toad from above when he has this move.
• Side smash doesn't fit his character and playstyle. His mobility is supposed to be bad, yet he can launch himself to the other side of the stage whenever he wants?
• I assume the clear pipe works like it does in 3D World, in which case I dislike it. Using it only leaves him wide open, as the opponent knows exactly where he'll pop out and can easily punish it.
• Up special disabling Captain Toad. He can get knocked right off the platform, at least let him counterattack or steer the thing.
• Nair and uair are way too slow to be of any use.
• Down tilt is too randomized.

Overall, I think you have a few neat concepts here, but the rest is just... eh. I really do want to work with you on this set, though, and combine the best parts of both sets. It's really the best thing to do here, as it will inevitably result in a better set.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

@ WeirdChillFever

What I like:

• Clear pipe for a grab works out well, and I like the throws.
• The attacks that use his backpack work well for what they are, and it's a good way for the Captain to attack (given that the backpack is his only non-throwing attack in his game).

What I don't like:

• Up smash should just be part of up special. It's practically useless as is since it disappears after three seconds, and it goes against Captain Toad's playstyle. The size of the shroom also makes it rather overpowered. There's no way to approach Captain Toad from above when he has this move.
• Side smash doesn't fit his character and playstyle. His mobility is supposed to be bad, yet he can launch himself to the other side of the stage whenever he wants?
• I assume the clear pipe works like it does in 3D World, in which case I dislike it. Using it only leaves him wide open, as the opponent knows exactly where he'll pop out and can easily punish it.
• Up special disabling Captain Toad. He can get knocked right off the platform, at least let him counterattack or steer the thing.
• Nair and uair are way too slow to be of any use.
• Down tilt is too randomized.

Overall, I think you have a few neat concepts here, but the rest is just... eh. I really do want to work with you on this set, though, and combine the best parts of both sets. It's really the best thing to do here, as it will inevitably result in a better set.

Villy's USmash is bigger
The Clear Pipe actually has two exits, one to the left and one to the right.
Nair and Uair actually happen pretty fast, but I could make it so that he summons the diamonds and star.
I'll fix UpB, though it's fast and has a hitbox
It's as randomised as Villy's UAir and DAir, maybe even less since Villager's only meteor depends on RNG.
I'll fix Side Smash

 

[Munomario777]

Villy's USmash is bigger

Last I checked, it wasn't as big as a Battlefield platform. Either way, having platform creation on a smash attack is just really tacky. Special moves should be on the B button, not the c-stick.

The Clear Pipe actually has two exits, one to the left and one to the right.

Yes; he goes in one, he comes out the other. That's how it works in 3D World. Even if you can change direction, that's still only two options, and since it's a clear pipe, you can easily see which way he's going.

Nair and Uair actually happen pretty fast, but I could make it so that he summons the diamonds and star.

Perhaps.

I'll fix UpB, though it's fast and has a hitbox

Not from above.

It's as randomised as Villy's UAir and DAir, maybe even less since Villager's only meteor depends on RNG.

Fair enough.

I'll fix Side Smash

M'kay. I still really want to collaborate with you for this set.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Last I checked, it wasn't as big as a Battlefield platform. Either way, having platform creation on a smash attack is just really tacky. Special moves should be on the B button, not the c-stick.

Yes; he goes in one, he comes out the other. That's how it works in 3D World. Even if you can change direction, that's still only two options, and since it's a clear pipe, you can easily see which way he's going.

Perhaps.

Not from above.

Fair enough.

M'kay. I still really want to collaborate with you for this set.

Eeh, I feel walking during a Smash Charge is tacky, we all have our opinions on what is fitting for a Smash and what's not.

He falls in from above and can choose. He travels pretty fast and has little lag when he comes out.

And we're basically collaborating now.