Should I Wait Till 3.6 To Really Get Into Zelda?

[HalcyonDays]

Hi everyone, I'm a Roy-main with some secondaries, who is also looking to improve my Zelda play.

I've been browsing the Zelda boards and it seems like Zelda is the type of character who really experiences some big changes between updates.

According to what I've read, 3.02 Zelda was more about stage control with multiple Din's Mines as well as increased movement options with teleport canceling through a wavedash, right?

And 3.5 Zelda lost a bit of that stage control ability with the singular Din's mine and no teledashing (can anyone tell me what Zelda gained in exchange for these?)

I guess my questions are these:

Would it be wise to invest my time in learning the specific techs that 3.5 Zelda has? Because I'm worried that any character-specific techs I learn for Zelda might be obsolete by the time 3.6 comes around.

 

[Downdraft]

Hi everyone, I'm a Roy-main with some secondaries, who is also looking to improve my Zelda play.

I've been browsing the Zelda boards and it seems like Zelda is the type of character who really experiences some big changes between updates.

According to what I've read, 3.02 Zelda was more about stage control with multiple Din's Mines as well as increased movement options with teleport canceling through a wavedash, right?

And 3.5 Zelda lost a bit of that stage control ability with the singular Din's mine and no teledashing (can anyone tell me what Zelda gained in exchange for these?)

I guess my questions are these:

Would it be wise to invest my time in learning the specific techs that 3.5 Zelda has? Because I'm worried that any character-specific techs I learn for Zelda might be obsolete by the time 3.6 comes around.

If I were you, and I hadn't put much time into Zelda yet, I'd wait. 2.6b -> 3.02 was a minor transition. You are correct that 3.5 Zelda lost the ability to control the stage with Din's Fire. 3.02 Din's Fire also functioned to force approaches and could setup future combos similarly to 3.5 Din's. Zelda's approaching options were severely nerfed due the removal of aerial Nayru's intangibility and the loss of the ability to wavedash out of Farore's Wind. Teledashing made it easier to teleport around platforms, and you could teleport, cancel, and wavedash backwards to test your opponent's reactions then bait out that reaction and punish later. Love Jumping and Diamond Diving were removed, so she has a much harder time escaping combos or returning to the stage. The frame data for many of her attacks was changed. To summarize the frame data changes, she essentially lost some killpower with the removal of the critical heels and her damage output was reduced.

She was overall nerfed and received no major changes to compensate for her reduced abilities. There are many other negatives that I omitted, but I think I've posted enough to give you an idea of why it'd be better for you to wait until 3.6. While there's no way for me to foresee any game-altering nerfs, I also cannot foresee if she'll get buffs or reversions to return her to a more viable state. Previous Zeldas had never won a major tournament but were getting close to the point where they could. 3.5 Zelda is not even close to good enough to win a major tournament.

 

[4tlas]

She is able to shorten her teleport similar to Fox Illusion. This is a significant buff to her recovery, and allows for similar (but slightly nerfed) teledashes.

She has been receiving major changes every patch, but most of her stays the same. The core principles and all of her a-attacks will remain mostly intact. Unless you're the type of player who "gets into" a character by going into training mode for hours and practicing frame-perfect tech, I think you should just play. If you are the type of player who does that, I have absolutely zero advice on whether you should dive in or not, because I have literally no experience with that mindset. But if that is your style, I doubt Zelda is your type of character. She is mostly cerebral, not technical. But both is always best!

 

[trusty]

I'm just a few weeks into PM and have never used a character like Zelda. Why not try her out before the update? Shes unlike any other character in the game

 

[Downdraft]

@ 4tlas While her a attacks remain mostly intact, her specials define her. Those underwent drastic revisions in 3.5. Unless her specials or a attacks are improved to compensate for the nerfs to aerial Nayru's, Din's, and Farore's (to a lesser extent), then she'll just be about the same if not worse in 3.6, and I'd recommend that the OP wait. Besides, they'll have to deal with the anti-Zelda attitudes and remarks along with her increased limitations, which aren't fun. I don't know who'd be excited to jump into that.

 

[4tlas]

@ 4tlas While her a attacks remain mostly intact, her specials define her. Those underwent drastic revisions in 3.5. Unless her specials or a attacks are improved to compensate for the nerfs to aerial Nayru's, Din's, and Farore's (to a lesser extent), then she'll just be about the same if not worse in 3.6, and I'd recommend that the OP wait. Besides, they'll have to deal with the anti-Zelda attitudes and remarks along with her increased limitations, which aren't fun. I don't know who'd be excited to jump into that.

I totally agree that her specials are a huge deal. I also totally agree that she needs buffs. I also know the pain of Zelda-hate.

Nevertheless, I don't see why those would be reasons to not play her. My impression was that OP hasn't really touched Zelda before, and is curious as to whether he would enjoy her. My answer is that, despite the changes she might receive, her core concept has always remained the same, and thus he could try her now to gauge interest without it being falsified by 3.6's release.

Re-reading the OP, perhaps that was a bad impression. But I think my answer remains the same. Zelda's tech is not what defines her, and though her tech might get changed in 3.6, her core will remain. And you can always practice that, OP. Just don't worry about the tech, at least for now.

 

[HalcyonDays]

Well, thanks for the replies you guys!

I went ahead and just messed around with her for a while, I really enjoy trying to space her Lightning kicks just right (so satisfying when it lands), but I can see she's not as approach-heavy as someone like Roy, who's waveland options and SHFLL-game can be pretty important to know. But it's as expected, I suppose. She's still very enjoyable to play as.

(Also, that ledge-snapping teleport...it's so weird. I can only pull it off half the time, and the other half, I just teleport to my doom. Any good advice here for both on and offstage ledge-sweetspot teleports?)

From the response here, I think the wisest decision would be to leave out practicing techs regarding her specials (though that teleport ledgehog is taunting me) and just focus moreso on how her normals are used, for now.

Granted, fundamentals such as proper spacing, reading, and how to play the neutral are just the essentials that'll allow you to play a majority of characters well, right?

What exactly, then, is Zelda's "core concept" that truly separates her from everyone else?

I assume it's the type of style that inspires more defensive, reactionary fighting styles while cutting off your opponents' approach options with Din's and thus making their next actions more easily predicted?

(Then again, maybe the "Din's" part isn't really "core" per se...assuming stationary Din's Fire receives some changes anyways. Hope they at least upgrade it to two mines on the field or something, but for now playing around with one is interesting.)

 

[4tlas]

To ledge-snap the teleport, you must return the stick to neutral before you would pass the ledge. In addition, you must actually pass the ledge. This means that you cannot snap to the ledge from the ground of the stage. Furthermore, you must be traveling downwards (at any angle).

Zelda is slow and has precise but powerful hitboxes. This makes it very difficult to perform an offensive strategy without consistent reads. Dins is an option to reduce an opponent's options, and thus read more easily. Also, since Zelda's tech is not very intense (l-cancelling is marginally useful and she has one of if not the worst wavedash in the game, reducing the value of practicing it) you can spend all of your mental energy on making such reads.

The other 2 tools for making reads are pattern recognition and conditioning. As a defensive character (low mobility, quick ranged moves with spacing), Zelda inherently can be good at walling out, waiting, and giving you time to recognize patterns. Due to her teleport, which can make fierce offensive mindgames, you can take advantage of all the reads you make.

If you want some good resources, you should check out the Triforce of Wisdom and Triforce of Courage threads, which I believe are stickied. Some of the stuff in the Wisdom thread is outdated (multiple Dins, for example) but the main principles still apply.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: 3.6 Zelda will be receiving a few tweaks, but I doubt anything major. Zelda takes time to learn, and I don't think learning 3.5 Zelda will make your 3.6 Zelda any worse

 

[justanull]

Hi everyone, I'm a Roy-main with some secondaries, who is also looking to improve my Zelda play.

I've been browsing the Zelda boards and it seems like Zelda is the type of character who really experiences some big changes between updates.

According to what I've read, 3.02 Zelda was more about stage control with multiple Din's Mines as well as increased movement options with teleport canceling through a wavedash, right?

And 3.5 Zelda lost a bit of that stage control ability with the singular Din's mine and no teledashing (can anyone tell me what Zelda gained in exchange for these?)

I guess my questions are these:

Would it be wise to invest my time in learning the specific techs that 3.5 Zelda has? Because I'm worried that any character-specific techs I learn for Zelda might be obsolete by the time 3.6 comes around.

Even if Zelda somehow receives another complete overhaul to her specials in 3.6 (highly unlikely), it's even more unlikely that they would overhaul her normals at this point. It's incredibly doubtful that experience you pick up with Zelda now would become useless later, so if you want to play her go ahead and do so.

If you want to snap to the ledge with a teleport remember to start from the air or a platform so you can travel downwards, to angle the stick diagonally down when you're locking in the direction, and once she disappears you can release the stick (holding downwards prevents ledgegrabs). Zelda then travels invisibly along the ground and once she passes the ledge she'll grab it.

 

[Arcalyth]

I would say go ahead and pick her up. I doubt there will be huge changes to her specials. Her bread and butter has stayed the same since 2.1 though lol.

I disagree that zelda is "defined" through her specials. Her kit is full of situationally effective options and high level zelda play involves learning what options are best and when.

You can play a special-heavy zelda but you'll stop succeeding at a mid level of play. Her specials are ALL filler. but it's very sparkly and deadly filler.

Zelda is a pretty well rounded character but she has a bit of a learning curve, or at the very least she requires a shift in thinking from most characters.

 

[otheusrex]

her specials are all filler now but they weren't in previous builds

 

[Downdraft]

I would say go ahead and pick her up. I doubt there will be huge changes to her specials. Her bread and butter has stayed the same since 2.1 though lol.

I disagree that zelda is "defined" through her specials. Her kit is full of situationally effective options and high level zelda play involves learning what options are best and when.

You can play a special-heavy zelda but you'll stop succeeding at a mid level of play. Her specials are ALL filler. but it's very sparkly and deadly filler.

Zelda is a pretty well rounded character but she has a bit of a learning curve, or at the very least she requires a shift in thinking from most characters.

This is not the thread to debate the bold part, but I'm willing to listen to why you consider her specials filler in the Zelda Social. 3.02 Nayru's was a significantly safer approach and allowed Zelda to escape combos. 3.02 Farore's Wind was better for her mobility than 3.5. Being able to airdodge interrupt the attack made it easier to teleport around platforms and go on the offensive against opponents since the move was a little less predictable. The stage control of 3.02 Din's combined with the ability to setup future combos or tack on damage while your opponent tried to approach you is superior to the ability to just continue or setup your combos in 3.5. 3.5 Din's just allows you to continue a sequence quicker after launching your opponent. Manual detonations and the returning hitbox are nice but don't make up for what she lost. She is easier to approach and has a harder time approaching due to the changes to her specials. Her defensive game was strongly reduced without increasing her offensive game to the same extent.

 

[Sardonyx]

Can we not turn this thread into a discussion about comparing Zelda builds and focus on the topic at hand?

 

[Miryafa]

Would it be wise to invest my time in learning the specific techs that 3.5 Zelda has? Because I'm worried that any character-specific techs I learn for Zelda might be obsolete by the time 3.6 comes around.

In hindsight, the naswer was "yes, wait for 3.6" because Zelda gained a faster tele-cancel and lost telesnapping from the stage (except when you sweet spot).

Can we not turn this thread into a discussion about comparing Zelda builds and focus on the topic at hand?

Comparing Zelda builds sounds like it'd be off-topic and a good candidate for a new thread.