Shields in Smash 4

[Shaya]

This is a stub topic for the most part.
Please understand.

Shields in Brawl:
1-3: power shield
4-7: locked into shield [7 frames minimum]
8-14: Shield drop lag (7 frames)

Shields in Smash 4:
1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield [11 frames minimum]
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

minimum shielding time never applies if your shield gets hit by anything. This is apparently a misnomer that is possibly a change from brawl. If you're hit on shield during your lock, you cannot do shield dropping actions while normal out of shield options are available.
grab oos seems to be universally 7 frames at best, up from 6. There are still some 6 frame grabs in the cast (Mii Brawler, Fox, etc)
Shield stun is lower, so on the aggressor's side of things, hitting a shield is actually less safe than it was in Brawl.
In Brawl, a 19 damage move deals 13 frames of shield stun, in Smash 4 it is 7.

However, when we're looking at sub 20 frame actions, single frame differences have huge impacts in relation to reactive play. For example, I attack shields with aerials to cover people for their shield drop actions that I cannot react to, yet in this game I have more time to react to those things, hence I'm less prone to "gamble" with an attack on read/reaction to someone [likely] dash shielding.

Everyone playing this game right now treats shields as if they were like Brawl, yet there is a massive fundamental difference to them that I doubt many have adjusted to.

The dynamic is like this.

Shield is strong on hit confirm but weaker when no hits are landed. So to take advantage of the new shield, you have to start not attacking into people's shields.

Once people learn how to deal with shields in this way, it will often be better to just not shield and choose another option instead (spotdodge and roll isn't that great, so maybe an offensive option or mobility option like dash/jump).

 

[Asdioh]

So when you say "minimum shielding time never applies if your shield gets hit by anything."
are you talking about
"4-11: locked into shield
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)"?

Meaning if someone hits your shield from that, you can do stuff faster?

 

[NairWizard]

This is not simply a theoretical topic. I have been incorporating this tactic (of punishing opposing shields by doing nothing instead of attacking into the shield) into my gameplay (as Pikachu, it should be noted) and only been shielding in situations where I know that I am going to get hit, such as when facing projectiles, ledge getup attacks, or platform pressure. I have cut shielding from all other parts of my gameplay. And it has vastly improved my performance. You probably shouldn't completely cut shielding like I have, but it's very obvious that shielding is now more situational compared to Brawl--it is more along the lines of roll or spotdodge than the dominant option it once was.

Obviously, people are still responding to shields like they used to, so shielding is still effective right now. But it will probably diminish in effectiveness on some characters rather quickly as people figure out that doing nothing is the best way to handle shields in this game.

Meaning if someone hits your shield from that, you can do stuff faster?

Yes, precisely; you can do stuff faster.

 

[Shaya]

The practical difference I need to highlight is, that a human's reaction to someone's shield now can be more consistently dealt with.
We're enticed NOT to hit shields because of less shield stun, and on the flip side shields are giving an opponent more leeway in dealing with them because they have more commitment.

This likely has a lot to do with the early meta prioritising those with good dash grabs + throw follow ups, as inefficient use of shield is a lot easier to beat with anti-shielding actions (dash grabs seem to be almost universally buffed as well by being 1 frame faster).

 

[Locke 06]

Something to add, as I don't know where I read it/who told me/if I found this out by myself, is that a full shield has 50 HP. (If I'm wrong... whoops. But you should add the correct HP to the OP)

Also, if you could add the shield decay & shield stun equations, that'd be y. (Does the shield start decaying after frame 3/after the perfect shield window?)

Edit: And people are still overreacting. OOS options (including rolling, spot dodging, jumping) are not changed. The act of shield dropping is not different. It is just that if someone shields, they are forced to either keep the shield up for 11 frames OR do something OOS in those 11 frames before shield dropping. Not a huge fan of "locked into shield" terminology because it makes you seem like a sitting duck for those frames when you can still act during that time with OOS moves (lol sorry, Shaya, couldn't resist the joke).

 

[GeZ]

This is... very strange. Not attacking shield is better? That's really non sensical to me, as a logical thing. Is it bugging anyone else, or is this just a game thing to you guys? It's seemingly anti-logic to me.

 

[Flamecircle]

Not entirely clear. What's the advantage to not hitting shield? Does hitting the shield slow you down?

Is there a reallife game example you can use to illustrate these properties?

 

[Pyr]

This is... very strange. Not attacking shield is better? That's really non sensical to me, as a logical thing. Is it bugging anyone else, or is this just a game thing to you guys? It's seemingly anti-logic to me.

Well, think of it this way: Block beats Attack beats Grab beats Block

Good 'ol rock-paper-.

 

[RanserSSF4]

To be fair, even though this information is helpful and I'm still practicing on how to avoid getting shield grabbed, I still think shieldstun should get buffed. I would say increase shieldstun by 20%, that way most air attacks are safe approaching options. It's still early for us, but I'm just giving out my opinion. Thanks for information so far

 

[Kofu]

Well, think of it this way: Block > Grab > Attack > Block

Good 'ol rock-paper-.

You't want to reverse that flow but otherwise it's correct since grabs no longer have armor.

This is interesting because it makes shield a good reactive option for things that you know will hit you, as SolidSense said. But it makes throwing shield out just as a gamble more risky. It sounds like this makes projectiles that either linger or have very quick cooldown times for the user quite potent.

 

[Pyr]

You't want to reverse that flow but otherwise it's correct since grabs no longer have armor.

This is interesting because it makes shield a good reactive option for things that you know will hit you, as SolidSense said. But it makes throwing shield out just as a gamble more risky. It sounds like this makes projectiles that either linger or have very quick cooldown times for the user quite potent.

Whoops. My bad. XD Editing now.

 

[Shaya]

Not entirely clear. What's the advantage to not hitting shield? Does hitting the shield slow you down?

Is there a reallife game example you can use to illustrate these properties?

Let's say you hit someone on frame 4 of their shield, so it isn't a power shield.
You hit them with a 10 damage move which is about 6 frames of shield stun.

Person who blocks that hit will start shield dropping on frame 10 (pretend hit lag isn't applicable) acting out on frame 17, oh and you're in a lot lag because you chose to commit to attacking that shield.

Now instead of attacking that shield, what if you use the fact that a shield is locking yourself up to 18 frames if nothing hits it to your advantage?
That's 18 frames you can reposition yourself so you can choose an attack that will be safe, or just over time shield damage. While shield pokes seem less likely than Brawl, they still exist on a weakened shield.

The difference between Brawl and Smash4 may be small (only 4 extra frames locked), but when you consider human reaction speed, something which averages around 10-15 frames for competitive players, that's a massive impact on the usability of shielding.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not entirely clear. What's the advantage to not hitting shield? Does hitting the shield slow you down?

To put it in simpler terms.

Hitting a shield puts the opponent in shield stun, which cancels out the shield drop lag, allowing the shielding character to retaliate faster. Not hitting a shield forces the opponent to go through the entire shield animation, which includes the shield drop lag.

So to make a prime example, people often SHFF aerials to attack. The defender shields the hit, then grabs. The optimal solution to this is to make an empty short hop, scare the defender to shield, and allow you to do whatever you want because he just committed to 18 frames minimum to shielding.

 

[GeZ]

From what I could tell from the frame data, it's more that the shielding character is more committed if you don't hit them, as they have more shield drop frames or roll frames than shield grab frames or something else that involves interactivity.

 

[Flamecircle]

Gotcha. Still better off poking a shield that's been up for a second though, right? Instead of whiffing?

 

[RanserSSF4]

To put it in simpler terms.

Hitting a shield puts the opponent in shield stun, which cancels out the shield drop lag, allowing the shielding character to retaliate faster. Not hitting a shield forces the opponent to go through the entire shield animation, which includes the shield drop lag.

So to make a prime example, people often SHFF aerials to attack. The defender shields the hit, then grabs. The optimal solution to this is to make an empty short hop, scare the defender to shield, and allow you to do whatever you want because he just committed to 18 frames minimum to shielding.

Kind of ironic because in SF4, most players did that as a mix up from their regular Jump-In attack or cross-up.

 

[HeroMystic]

Gotcha. Still better off poking a shield that's been up for a second though, right? Instead of whiffing?

If you can poke a shield that is safe on block, it's almost always better to do that since it damages the shield. But the majority of characters don't have this luxury, especially when powershielded.

Basically, once people realize how many frames it takes to drop a shield, we'll see a surge of players abusing "empty" movement to scare opponents into shielding. To note, Diddy did this a lot in both Brawl and Smash4 vs novice players. He's always all over the place so naturally you shield to get some breathing room, then suddenly Diddy runs up to you and gets an entirely free grab because you weren't expecting him to break his pattern.

Once this surge happens, we'll be seeing defenders start shielding less and less and attempt to use other options such as fox-trotting and simply jumping back, as well as other spacing options.

 

[Flamecircle]

I see. So in general, the biggest take away from this is that shielding, even well timed shielding, against an airborne opponent who landed instead of attacked is a disadvantageous state, and is forced into an OoS option to avoid the dash grab?

That's good. Personally i've been struggling on the approach for some guys, so this should be helpful.

 

[RPK]

You can still instantly jump out of your shield though right?

 

[Shaya]

All regular out of shield options are still available with no restrictions.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So what I am having trouble understanding, is how does this make it more disadvantageous for the defender if he can still grab OOS?

 

[GeZ]

So what I am having trouble understanding, is how does this make it more disadvantageous for the defender if he can still grab OOS?

Spacing. Grab OoS doesn't seem that good in this game, from what I've experiences so far.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, moves with high Shield Damage are now a bit stronger?

 

[Thinkaman]

So, moves with high Shield Damage are now a bit stronger?

Yes, breaking shields is much more likely/realistic.

 

[RPK]

Yes, breaking shields is much more likely/realistic.

I already have an idea, but just want to make sure...What makes you think that?

 

[adlp]

To put it in simpler terms.

Hitting a shield puts the opponent in shield stun, which cancels out the shield drop lag, allowing the shielding character to retaliate faster. Not hitting a shield forces the opponent to go through the entire shield animation, which includes the shield drop lag.

So to make a prime example, people often SHFF aerials to attack. The defender shields the hit, then grabs. The optimal solution to this is to make an empty short hop, scare the defender to shield, and allow you to do whatever you want because he just committed to 18 frames minimum to shielding.

thanks for the clarification. what are the startup frames for shield grabs on hit and on no hit?

 

[mountain_tiger]

This is... very strange. Not attacking shield is better? That's really non sensical to me, as a logical thing. Is it bugging anyone else, or is this just a game thing to you guys? It's seemingly anti-logic to me.

From a certain perspective, it's actually pretty intuitive... just in a very unintuitive way.

 

[Nobie]

This is... very strange. Not attacking shield is better? That's really non sensical to me, as a logical thing. Is it bugging anyone else, or is this just a game thing to you guys? It's seemingly anti-logic to me.

This clip from the anime "Hajime no Ippo" might help to explain it.

You can see how the one boxer feints and the mere threat of his punch causes the opponent to put up his guard, and in that moment's hesitation the boxer takes advantage and hits him where he's vulnerable. It's a similar idea with not attacking shield in Smash 4.

 

[LightLV]

This is a pretty common tactic in any other fighting game. It's called an empty jump in.


It's most effective only if you know your opponent is going to block (and not anti-air or attempt to beat it out). The idea is, if you're jumping in for a high mixup and you know your opponent is going to attempt to block it, you can use that to simply not attack and sneak in a low or a grab.

It works because most people block on a sort of rhythm, they anticipate the blockstun/blockpush and react afterwards. In the split second this takes, while they're waiting for that block confirm, you can easily just sneak in a different attack (usually a quick low, since they're going to be blocking high since it's a jump-in) but Grab in this situation works equally as well for the same reasons. But if they're mashing out, or attempting to anti-air, you're most definitely going to be hit.

This works great in smash bros because shields are so good to begin with, and almost every aerial is unsafe on block. The most powerful effect of this is how well it breaks the rhythm of the opponent.

But if you're predictible with it, you're likely to be killed by an upsmash.

 

[GeZ]

This clip from the anime "Hajime no Ippo" might help to explain it.

You can see how the one boxer feints and the mere threat of his punch causes the opponent to put up his guard, and in that moment's hesitation the boxer takes advantage and hits him where he's vulnerable. It's a similar idea with not attacking shield in Smash 4.

I've watched all of Ippo, and while that may apply to a few situations the implication is never that blocking is invalidated and not recommended without a hard read, as it is here.

This is a pretty common tactic in any other fighting game. It's called an empty jump in.


It's most effective only if you know your opponent is going to block (and not anti-air or attempt to beat it out). The idea is, if you're jumping in for a high mixup and you know your opponent is going to attempt to block it, you can use that to simply not attack and sneak in a low or a grab.

It works because most people block on a sort of rhythm, they anticipate the blockstun/blockpush and react afterwards. In the split second this takes, while they're waiting for that block confirm, you can easily just sneak in a different attack (usually a quick low, since they're going to be blocking high since it's a jump-in) but Grab in this situation works equally as well for the same reasons. But if they're mashing out, or attempting to anti-air, you're most definitely going to be hit.

This works great in smash bros because shields are so good to begin with, and almost every aerial is unsafe on block. The most powerful effect of this is how well it breaks the rhythm of the opponent.

But if you're predictible with it, you're likely to be killed by an upsmash.

I came to smash with 5 years of street fighter. The difference is that with an empty jump you still hold block incase the aerial does come out, and then you anticipate and react to grab/ low. The act of holding back to block is never detrimental. This doesn't make sense to me coming from Melee and P:M either just because while shield pressure isn't huge, out poking shields and attacking shields isn't inherently bad.

But seriously, comparing smash to more traditional fighters, especially street fighter like I'm assuming you meant when talking about empty jumps usually is only very loosely analogous. Not recommended.

 

[LightLV]

But seriously, comparing smash to more traditional fighters, especially street fighter like I'm assuming you meant when talking about empty jumps usually is only very loosely analogous. Not recommended.

Oh absolutely. SF wasn't in my head when i was typing, but it's the exact same thing in all fighters, except in SF you can't block while jumping.

Blocking High then Low is what most people do on reaction to jump-in blockstrings anyway, I was just mentioning that the only reason it works is because they're expecting the block to come first, which usually causes them to time their reactions wrong. If they skipped straight to blocking low, in a regular situation they'd eat an overhead.

In that sense, the concept is the same, and it works the same in smash, even if hitting a shield is almost always a bad idea in this one.

Yes, breaking shields is much more likely/realistic.

Not...really...? Shields take noticeably more damage now, but that rarely matters since they heal back so damn fast. You'd be lucky to abuse shield pokes in the downtime, but its not like finding breathing room to get your shield back to maximum is hard in this game or anything.

Playing marth/lucina/bowser it's easy to get someone's shield like, a point or three away from shattering, then chase them down only to see it's more than half refilled by the time you get them blocking again. And even with Shield Breaker, perfect shielding practically does 0 shield damage.

 

[Saltix]

All regular out of shield options are still available with no restrictions.

So in this game, what is the earliest frame that people are free to act with an OOS option such as Usmash, 18? Or a better way to phrase this question would be "Must you go through shield drop lag before being able to act upon an OOS option?"

 

[LightLV]

no point, you can just roll and be invincible forever

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So in this game, what is the earliest frame that people are free to act with an OOS option such as Usmash, 18? Or a better way to phrase this question would be "Must you go through shield drop lag before being able to act upon an OOS option?"

The "minimum shield frames" limitation only applies if you try to drop your shield normally. Jump canceling your Shield and doing an aerial takes the time of your normal jumpsquat, and jump-canceling your Shield to do a U-Smash or Up-B takes only one frame (minimum, anyway; you're canceling your jumpsquat with these moves before you leave the ground).

 

[dragontamer]

jump-canceling your Shield to do a U-Smash or Up-B takes only one frame

Arrrgggg. My habits!!

I turn tap-jump off every time. Now I gotta plink off a jump while doing an up-smash out of shield. (Actually, plinking isn't that bad on the 3DS. I'll have to see how bad it is on the gamecube controller in a bit though...)

-------

That said, I think we have to just recognize that empty-approaches to bait out shields work out great.

Empty dash -> Bait out back rolls (dash attack on their recovery) or Empty-dash ->pivot grab when they shield.

18-frames of commitment per shield. That's a lot. Empty shield has been nerfed from 14-frames to 18 frames. That's actually a massive amount of time.

 

[Big-Cat]

But seriously, comparing smash to more traditional fighters, especially street fighter like I'm assuming you meant when talking about empty jumps usually is only very loosely analogous. Not recommended.

Conceptually, it's the same. Instead of running or jumping in and attacking, do nothing when you get in. Unlike Street Fighter or other fighting games, shielding has a minimum amount of commitment if it's never hit. So take that into account and mixup your approaches.

 

[dragontamer]

Actually, its not like anything in Street Fighter IMO... But in hyperfighters (Blazblue, Melty Blood, MvC2 / MvC3, Guilty Gear), it is basically chicken-blocking. You dedicate yourself to standing still in Smash for 18 frames. While if you chicken-block, you dedicate yourself to jumping backwards for ~18 frames or so (leaving yourself vulnerable to air-grabs and air-unblockable attacks).

The mindgame is the same. Force your opponent to chicken-block, then punish. Or in this game... fake out their block, and punish them afterwards.

 

[LightLV]

Either way, in hindsight 7 frames really isn't **** in context of this game. You aren't getting any amazing punish for forcing a shield drop, and throwing out an attack is going to still get you punished.

Best you'll get is a grab, or, if you're lucky enough to have a character with good jab options, some damage. Of course, if you're one of the lucky ******** who can link a killmove out of jab or down-throw, this is a great thing.

 

[dragontamer]

Its not 7 frames, its 18 frames minimum while the opponent stands still... outside of OOS jumps and whatnot.

Robin's Nosfaratsu (30% damage differential), Marth / Lucina Shield Breaker, Lucario Force Palm (in rage, KOs at 90%), Bowser Command Grab (KO at 100%ish), Gannondorf Command Grab (might combo to down-tilt for KO potential... otherwise sets up a tech-chase scenario favoring Gannondorf), KO Punch from Little Mac, Pound from Jiggly.

And of course... universally there is the grab.

There's a ton of options for tons of characters.

 

[Locke 06]

In Brawl, a full shield can withstand 50 damage; shields take 70% damage from attacks, so this number is more like 71.5 in practice. Shields deplete by about 8.4 per second, while they recharge at about 2.1 per second. When a shield is broken, it is reset to 30.

The above is taken from Smashpedia. I am very confident that the 70% damage is gone, as it seems like shields can only take 50%. Is the rest of this still the same as it was in Brawl?

Also, do we know when shields deplete/recover/stay the same? For example, I think shield health stays the same when in the perfect frame window or in shield stun, while recovering when standing. However, does shield health recover while rolling/spot dodging? What about shield dropping?