Meta Shields in Smash4 / 1.1.1>

[Vipermoon]

I can get Marth to 200 attack, shield breaker only does 18.xx (less than 18.33)

Actually, 200 is the max. I found a better configuration I missed. It would have been 208 but the max is 200.

It does 18.xx where xx is less than .1. It broke the shield. 18+25=43. So still not sure what to think of things when i in regards to extra shield damage vs. regular damage.

 

[Locke 06]

Shield Breaker + equipment is dangerous. Equipment may (likely) magnify additional shield damage. You're playing with too many variables.

I only suggest +200 equipment because I know it doubles %'s. Everything else is icky.

 

[Vipermoon]

Shield Breaker + equipment is dangerous. Equipment may (likely) magnify additional shield damage. You're playing with too many variables.

I only suggest +200 equipment because I know it doubles %'s. Everything else is icky.

It's exactly 2x? Thanks that helps a lot. And no, looks like extra shield damage in unaffected. Non-tipper shield breaker does exactly 16% and tipper does 18%. That's 41 and 43 HP. The 43 breaks the shield, the 41 doesn't. I'm done testing it. We need another way of doing this. We also need a previous patch.

 

[Shaya]

If it's breaking between 41 and 43 health, I'm guessing it's 20% more shield damage it looks like.

Brawl = 0.8
S4 pre 1.1.1: 1.0
Now: 1.2?

And this would not affect a move's bonus shield damage I'm guessing?

This would mean that marth/lucina's minus 5 on shieldbreaker only evens out at 25 damage or more? i.e. fully charged which already one shots shields, R.I.P.

 

[Vipermoon]

If it's breaking between 41 and 43 health, that's damage applying 20% more shield damage it looks like.

Brawl = 0.8
S4 pre 1.1.1: 1.0
Now: 1.2?

What if HP has always been this low and Shield Breaker needed to charge this much because the +30 never changed until the switch to +50 at full charge? How do we know if the +30/+25 gradually increased with charge?

 

[LancerStaff]

If it's breaking between 41 and 43 health, I'm guessing it's 20% more shield damage it looks like.

Brawl = 0.8
S4 pre 1.1.1: 1.0
Now: 1.2?

And this would not affect a move's bonus shield damage I'm guessing? or maybe it is.

This still doesn't make sense because there's things like the Bowser Bomb that nearly brakes shields before and after the patch...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If shield health was made to be less than 50, then it was sometime before 1.10. Marth's SB dealed 38, and a single sour jab (3 damage) afterward broke a shield in 1.10. I'm doing it right now on my pre-patch wii u. Some time occurs between the SB and jab in this scenario (they're not a blockstring), so health counts down 1 or 2 more points before the jab. The assumption that shield health was 41-43 seems spot on.

My guess? Shields always had this little health. Because despite Marth mains apparently being convinced their Shield breaker was a worthless move before (no I will not less all those derailing comments go), I do trust that they would have noticed a different effectiveness in an uncharged shieldbreaker in any of the patch updates. Even I'm pretty sure that the 1.10 SB was this effective on 3DS release.

 

[DanGR]

• Shield Breaker (Neutral Special) shield damage decreased 30 → 25
• Headbutt (Side Special) shield damage decreased 30 → 25 (Stubborn Headbutt [3] included)

30/1.2 = 25

• Shield damage on tech get up attack decreased across the cast 10 → 8

10/1.2 = 8[.3]

Makes sense to divide the shield damage by 1.2 if they're going to increase it by the same amount globally. Just a thought.

 

[Blobface]

If shield health was made to be less than 50, then it was sometime before 1.10. Marth's SB dealed 38, and a single sour jab (3 damage) afterward broke a shield in 1.10. I'm doing it right now on my pre-patch wii u. Some time occurs between the SB and jab in this scenario (they're not a blockstring), so health counts down 1 or 2 more points before the jab. The assumption that shield health was 41-43 seems spot on.

My guess? Shields always had this little health. Because despite Marth mains apparently being convinced their Shield breaker was a worthless move before (no I will not less all those derailing comments go), I do trust that they would have noticed a different effectiveness in an uncharged shieldbreaker in any of the patch updates. Even I'm pretty sure that the 1.10 SB was this effective on 3DS release.

Shield health is technically unchanged. Regular damage allegedly does 1.2 as much shield damage now. Bonus shield damage is not changed from prepatch.

 

[Vipermoon]

If shield health was made to be less than 50, then it was sometime before 1.10. Marth's SB dealed 38, and a single sour jab (3 damage) afterward broke a shield in 1.10. I'm doing it right now on my pre-patch wii u. Some time occurs between the SB and jab in this scenario (they're not a blockstring), so health counts down 1 or 2 more points before the jab. The assumption that shield health was 41-43 seems spot on.

My guess? Shields always had this little health. Because despite Marth mains apparently being convinced their Shield breaker was a worthless move before (no I will not less all those derailing comments go), I do trust that they would have noticed a different effectiveness in an uncharged shieldbreaker in any of the patch updates. Even I'm pretty sure that the 1.10 SB was this effective on 3DS release.

Good. Can you please test something? Put Marth on +200 and check to make sure fully charged Usmash (from the ground) breaks shield. Just to be sure.

• Shield Breaker (Neutral Special) shield damage decreased 30 → 25
• Headbutt (Side Special) shield damage decreased 30 → 25 (Stubborn Headbutt [3] included)

30/1.2 = 25

• Shield damage on tech get up attack decreased across the cast 10 → 8

10/1.2 = 8[.3]

Makes sense to divide the shield damage by 1.2 if they're going to increase it by the same amount globally. Just a thought.

Good of you to find this correlation. BUT. The modifier is normal damage. Not shield damage. So a -5 nerf to SB, HB, and get-up attack wouldn't succeed in neutralizing the difference.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Shield health is technically unchanged. Regular damage allegedly does 1.2 as much shield damage now. Bonus shield damage is not changed from prepatch.

I just refuted this theory, weren't you reading? In 1.10, Marth breaks a shield with SB (8 +30) and Jab (3). Multiply the base damage by 1.2 and the numbers become (9.6 +30) and 3.6. Together, they do not add up to 50. Shields always were this fragile. Nothing changed in THIS patch, only this game. Now, if shield damage were also multiplied by 1.2 in Smash 4, then things start to make more sense, as far as I can tell.

Good. Can you please test something? Put Marth on +200 and check to make sure fully charged Usmash (from the ground) breaks shield. Just to be sure.

It does. Mario's Shield was broken on a fully charged Usmash. It deals 44 damage to a grounded target on hit with the two hitboxes together.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay I put Marth on -119 Attack. Found out two things.

Changing Attack definitely doesn't modify added shield damage.

And that Shield Breaker stays/stayed at +25/+30 as it charges/charged. It would only be above that (+50) at fully charged. It was assumed before (at least by me) that the added shield damage climbed gradually as it charged. I never broke a shield with -119 until it was fully charged.

 

[Ulevo]

So is the shield stun formula officially x/3.5+2 now?

 

[Shaya]

That's only on projectiles.

 

[Ulevo]

That's only on projectiles.

And non-projectiles is x/1.72+2?

 

[Shaya]

That has seemingly been tried and valid since it's clarification, yeah.

 

[jet56]

So are we all in agreement then that we get a 1.2x multiplayer for shield damage on all moves?
are we also in agreement that shields are about 40 hp?

if so, did we just miss these changes in previous patches, or did this change all happen this patch?

 

[Vipermoon]

So are we all in agreement then that we get a 1.2x multiplayer for shield damage on all moves?
are we also in agreement that shields are about 40 hp?

if so, did we just miss these changes in previous patches, or did this change all happen this patch?

No both of those things can't exist. It's one or the other (or something else). We are not in agreement. We don't really know what happened in what patch if at all.

 

[Shaya]

^ Not even close to agreement on really much of anything yet.

 

[UberMadman]

I feel like I'm watching an episode of CSI Miami, except the murder victim was shields, and we can't figure out how the killer did it.

 

[LancerStaff]

I still say it's been at 41ish HP since the beginning...

Say Vipermoon , you know if a fully charged shield breaker without attack equipment can break Shulk's shield in shield mode? Just a silly idea of mine...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Trying and failing to hide how stunned I am that so many people thought shields are just as strong in Smash 4 as Brawl. We've been playing this game for a year, guys. Nobody looked at Marth's shieldbreaker data and thought "humm, that doesn't add up to 50". I don't know if it's a reduction in hit points or a modifier for damage on block, but I think it's best we come up with a new health value. Saying that shield health is still 50 confuses everybody, even when you explain damage is modified. People just want to know how much it takes to break a shield.

Here, I tracked down proof that shields were this fragile in 3DS 1.02. Half a second of charge, same as 1.10.

 

[Vipermoon]

I still say it's been at 41ish HP since the beginning...

Say Vipermoon , you know if a fully charged shield breaker without attack equipment can break Shulk's shield in shield mode? Just a silly idea of mine...

Considering damage modifiers don't change the shield damage modifiers, it will easily break his shield since it's +50 at that point. This is the same situation I described in post #212 where damage is low.

Trying and failing to hide how stunned I am that so many people thought shields are just as strong in Smash 4 as Brawl. We've been playing this game for a year, guys. Nobody looked at Marth's shieldbreaker data and thought "humm, that doesn't add up to 50". I don't know if it's a reduction in hit points or a modifier for damage on block, but I think it's best we come up with a new health value. Saying that shield health is still 50 confuses everybody, even when you explain damage is modified. People just want to know how much it takes to break a shield.

Here, I tracked down proof that shields were this fragile in 3DS 1.02. Half a second of charge, same as 1.10.

In our defense, we always thought the shield damage modifier climbed gradually from +30 to +50 during charging but if we knew what we know now (that it was +30 always until fully charged at +50) it wouldn't have slipped by.

 

[[Deuce]]

If the formula may have changed, has anyone tested multi-hit moves yet? Some people are asserting that Shulk bair -> Fsmash pops shield, so maybe the extra shield damage/reduced shield may have something to do with the shield being hit repeatedly within a certain window?

 

[Shaya]

In our defense, we always thought the shield damage modifier climbed gradually from +30 to +50 during charging but if we knew what we know now (that it was +30 always until fully charged at +50) it wouldn't have slipped by.

Huh? I don't recall me thinking this But 12 damage plus 30 for mild charge breaking shields was always thought of a "nearly full shield" but not a completely fresh one. But if it actually was a guaranteed shield break at every point prior, well it kinda makes sense + made it actually good, now it not doing that is somewhat of a downer~

 

[Boney]

I just refuted this theory, weren't you reading? In 1.10, Marth breaks a shield with SB (8 +30) and Jab (3). Multiply the base damage by 1.2 and the numbers become (9.6 +30) and 3.6. Together, they do not add up to 50. Shields always were this fragile. Nothing changed in THIS patch, only this game. Now, if shield damage were also multiplied by 1.2 in Smash 4, then things start to make more sense, as far as I can tell.



It does. Mario's Shield was broken on a fully charged Usmash. It deals 44 damage to a grounded target on hit with the two hitboxes together.

Shouldn't the one second between the shield break and the jab hitting on shield add the 6.6 shield degeneration damage per second that occurs amounting to 50? Not sure how you're testing so I could be way off.

Haven't tested it in the lab but Samus' Charge shot deals 25 + 3 shield damage and missiles do 10 + 5, and at a distance they pretty much hit simultaneously and don't shield break.

 

[Eureka]

So, wacky idea here, but what if someone sent an e-mail to Nintendo or something to ask how much health shields have? I mean, it sounds stupid, but it can't hurt. It'd certainly take a lot of the guesswork out of figuring this out.

 

[JohnnyB]

Has anyone explored the possibility that there is a different multiplier for shield damage applied to regular moves and special moves? Could it be that special moves do 1x shield damage while normal attacks do 1.2-1.25x. That would explain why normals that add up to 41-43 break shields and specials don't.

 

[Blue Banana]

I'm trying to get some clarity on mixed reports about ZSS paralyzer (neutral b).
Alternative shield stun for projectiles: "FINALLY"/interesting/cool.

But I'm hearing reports paralyzer has 0 hit lag despite http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/szerosuit_paralyzer_bullet
showing it has a 2.0 hit lag modifier.
It could be 0x14 attribute but I would be guessing that's new to this patch.

This would mean that Olimar's smash attacks got nerfed this patch I'm guessing.
Could this explain why people are talking as if Rosalina/Luma are worse this patch? (not sure how/why luma would be considered a projectile though?)

Can you explain how Oli's smashes are nerfed? I don't think he has any hitlag modifiers on his smashes aside from Dsmash according to 0x16, 0x19, and 0x1d on this thing.

 

[Grif]

Can you explain how Oli's smashes are nerfed? I don't think he has any hitlag modifiers on his smashes aside from Dsmash according to 0x16, 0x19, and 0x1d on this thing.

All of olimars smashes (and aerials too if I'm not mistaken, basically all pikmin attacks) are projectiles

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You guys can keep working on the specifics, but, practically, I'll consider it ~41 HP.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just realized that because we now know the added shield damage on Shield Breaker doesn't climb while charging makes the 5 HP nerf an even bigger deal! It won't break a full shield until it's actually fully charged or very nearly.

****!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, now that attacks on shield are safer, it's more realistic for Marcina and DK to get a safe poke in beforehand, right?

 

[Vipermoon]

Well, now that attacks on shield are safer, it's more realistic for Marcina and DK to get a safe poke in beforehand, right?

Noooo.........

If anything people are less likely to choose shielding as their defensive option if they know they can't punish. Besides, what about the patch changes a character's ability to hit a shield? They didn't get larger or something. Shield Breaker is literally useless for breaking shields now. It's a really good kill move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

All of your aerials are ~3 frames safer on block. U-Air went from being almost-safe to safe, for instance.

You're right about people using shield to defend less, but they should've been rolling anyway. The rolls are outrageous in this game.

 

[Vipermoon]

All of your aerials are ~3 frames safer on block. U-Air went from being almost-safe to safe, for instance.

You're right about people using shield to defend less, but they should've been rolling anyway. The rolls are outrageous in this game.

Yes I get that the aerials/tilts/whatever else you'd hit a shield with are safer but the best way to break shields isn't throwing out SB right after a tipper.

The best ways to break shields against even the best players:

• Reading a ledge get-up to shield
• From a grab release shield read
• A shielder standing at the ledge while you are handing from it
• When someone does something punishable and you expect them to shield after their end lag

All of these things require quickness (minimal to no charge because then they can't both react and act) and happen well after a shield is given time to recuperate partially/fully. These mindgames are gone against anyone who is paying attention. How sad.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I can only look at how strong SB was pre-patch, but if you think the combined damage of SB (uncharged) and sour Jab 1 (3 damage) should be enough to break a full shield, I really don't know what to tell you. It's abusive, and didn't really promote the concept of conditioning your opponent to shield, since they will block stray hits from you constantly throughout the match. With a shield damage reduction of 5, you'd now need a SB with Ftilt, or a tipper Fair, correct? Any move that deals 8 damage, preferably more, since the opponent's shield will recover a couple hit points over the next few seconds. That's not that bad in the context of a flowing match.

 

[Vipermoon]

I can only look at how strong SB was pre-patch, but if you think the combined damage of SB (uncharged) and sour Jab 1 (3 damage) should be enough to break a full shield, I really don't know what to tell you. It's abusive, and didn't really promote the concept of conditioning your opponent to shield, since they will block stray hits from you constantly throughout the match. With a shield damage reduction of 5, you'd now need a SB with Ftilt, or a tipper Fair, correct? Any move that deals 8 damage, preferably more, since the opponent's shield will recover a couple hit points over the next few seconds. That's not that bad in the context of a flowing match.

I guess we will see if this is the case in application then. I already went through how you usually can and cannot get away with it hitting a shield with it. And it was not abuseable. The only thing wrong with it is how strong the tipper is (too many overpowered moves in this game knockback-wise).

Technically speaking a shield break with Smash 4 SB is as attainable as it was with SB in Brawl and tipper SB in Melee. It will still happen more often because it will still be thrown out more often than in those games.

 

[Blue Banana]

All of olimars smashes (and aerials too if I'm not mistaken, basically all pikmin attacks) are projectiles

I understand that, but even with how projectile shieldstun is calculated in 1.1.1, I'm confused on how his smashes would be indirectly nerfed. I calculated the number of shieldstun frames that would be induced on the strongest part of Fsmash from the OP.

Color|Base Damage|1.1.0|1.1.1
Red |17.4|6|6
Yellow |14.5|5|9
Blue |14.5|5|6
White |11.6|4|5
Purple |20.3|7|7

Yellow accounts the modifier for electric attacks.

I didn't see any innate hitlag modifiers on any of the Pikmin attacks aside from one in the pastebin code, so I'm assuming most of the attacks have a hitlag modifier of 1.0. That would mean that the strongest part of Fsmash would either deal more shieldstun or the same amount of shield stun depending on the color. The only way that the amount of shieldstun would be nerfed is there was either some hitlag modifier on Oli's smashes that I wasn't aware of or some other code in the game that alters the amount of shieldstun dealt.

 

[DanGR]

Blue Banana
Shieldstun and defender hitlag formulas weren't the only changes you have to consider. Apparently shieldstun overlaps shieldlock now, so it removes a lot of safety that those attacks had previously. (Normally in exchange for higher shieldstun, keep in mind.)

Regardless, I'm doubtful that projectiles follow what we understand to be normal 1.1.1 shielding mechanic changes anyways.