-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Sheik Match Up & Strategy Thread [3.6]
- Thread starter AuraMaudeGone
- Start date
Getsafe
Smash Apprentice
The new hit lag multiplier on her dthrow might help you out. Try in + up, you might end up above grab height before she can act. Otherwise yeah just ride it out
Getsafe
Smash Apprentice
The new hit lag multiplier on her dthrow might help you out. Try in + up, you might end up above grab height before she can act. Otherwise yeah just ride it out
KingsGambit27
Smash Cadet
Gonna have to overhaul the chart due to the 3.6 changes. My one interest is the increase in hitlag on dthrow from 0x to 1x. People should react perfectly every time to dthrow now.
Journal
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 21, 2015
- Messages
- 126
I'm having a lot of trouble with the toon link and ness matchups, and I was hoping for some advice. The ones I play against both have super tricky movement and projectile games. I know that I can gimp ness given the right angle with needles, but besides that, I struggle a lot with the offstage and neutral game vs both of them. Thoughts?
Last edited:
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Hmm, I've been neglecting this thread.
Sure, that would make sense in theory. We'd have to add some PM specifics of course.
Sorry, I don't enough exp with TL or Ness to tell you anything valuable.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
throw needles at both of them.
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
What's the consensus on the following MU's?
D
Deleted member
Guest
free, annoying, badWhat's the consensus on the following MU's?
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Bad for us? :o How?
D
Deleted member
Guest
ZSS has a dashdance + a gun to negate our ground movement and then a lot of her conversions play around CC very well. its like the marth/CF/fox/MK MU where the opponent can win neutral over and over if they choose to play particularly cautiously, but unlike marth/CF, i havent found any particular reason to have any advantages elsewhere in the MU. by "bad" i mean +1 probably, not too much of a margin.
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
Not to mention ZSS' recovery is bizz-onkers and she has plenty of ways to apply edge pressure.
There are a few silver-linings though... I haven't tested 3.6b on ZSS yet, but I believe our down-throw has one or two re-grabs at low percent and if we hold the ledge and she recovers above or behind us we can reverse-fair or bair respectively.
@Umbreon who have you played that uses ZSS?
There are a few silver-linings though... I haven't tested 3.6b on ZSS yet, but I believe our down-throw has one or two re-grabs at low percent and if we hold the ledge and she recovers above or behind us we can reverse-fair or bair respectively.
@Umbreon who have you played that uses ZSS?
D
Deleted member
Guest
just random people
idk at this point i pretty much hate the **** out of 3.6, not only does sheik suck, but anyone else i want to play sucks
ShadowKing
Smash Ace
Roll option s?
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Hit up @
Cheeri-Oats
, knows the MU very well. There's some pretty good pointers he posted on the first page of this thread.
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
@
Journal
I know you sent me a private message, but I'll reply here because I'd like more people to benefit from it.
v.s. Lucario
Sheik vs Lucario changed subtly due to 3.6b, but the impact is tremendous. Without her back-throw mix-up, you can't really threaten Lucario with 50-50 up-smash kills. With less of a fear of getting grabbed, this means your neutral game may falter because Lucario can shut-down most other approaches by simply holding "down".
Neutral
Crouch Cancelling
Lucario is a mid-to-high weight character with a mid-speed fast fall. This means he can crouch cancel launchers such as...
Neutral Baiting
As you can probably guess, on the ground, Lucario is almost never vulnerable. I say almost because if he tosses out a laggy move such as forward-smash or side-b or dash attack and DOES NOT HIT YOU, you can go in and punish.
But how do you force a Lucario to whiff a laggy move? Never outright approach. I sometimes forget this, but a Lucario fears over-committing (moreso than other characters such as Fox, Falco, or Wolf) because Lucario does not have a lagless, get-out-of-jail free card. If Lucario is the mid-to-full stage length away, pressure with needles. This will get to them to think that they have to approach. At short-to-mid range, the neutral changes based on whether or not they have aura.
Short-To-Mid No Aura
If they do not have aura, their best approach move is dash-attack. Everything else is designed to intercept your approaches and fluidly blend into their combos. Dash-attack is relatively quick, and because it lasts a little long, he can catch you if spot-dodge it early and go into a combo.
You cannot out-prioritize dash-attach or overwhelm it with any of your moves. You must dash-dance and catch dash-attack with a pivot grab or spot-dodge late if you sense it coming. If you're confident, you can also jump in place. If you know that your opponent is fond of punishing landings with dash-attacks, then you can jump in place and as you're landing, bait their dash-attack (which you know is coming) and then double-jump to avoid their attack, and fast-fall into grab, forward-air, neutral air, or up-air (if you're ****ing fancy).
The problem with jumping in place is that if you do it often enough, a clever Lucario will say, "**** that, I'm not dumb" and simply approach with an aerial such as forward air, or stand outside of your range and forward-smash you.
Once you feel each other out and know each other's options, this exchange becomes a delicate balance of mixing up your baits (dash-dance pivot-grab, late spot-dodge, jump-in-place, intercepting fair for the oncoming aerial).
Short-To-Mid Yes Aura
Aura shuts-down almost all of your baiting tools. You cannot jump-bait the dash attack, because Lucario can approach with their down-B (Double Team?) and cancel it into a semi-invincible up-tilt that covers your first jump landing, and your double jump attempt in one wide swath. You can't even spot-dodge because up-tilt will catch it too. Your best hope is to read the approach and NOT be caught in shield, in dash-turn, or jumping.
As of my current matches, short-to-mid range neutral against a Lucario with aura boils down to a couple of scenarios and decisions.
Understanding short-to-mid when a Lucario has aura is understanding your opponent and what they're likely to do. The biggest differences between Lucario players starts with Short-to-Mid and continues through to their Combo Game which brings me to my next major point...
Survivability
Lucario must have the most impressive combo game of any character in Project M. He can combo floaties just as well as he can combo heavier characters and fast-fallers. He can combo off a recovery, combo off a shield-****, and combo out-of-shield. All he needs is one stray hit on you or your shield.
So what do you do?
Well... you slowly convince yourself that the best reason to play against Lucario with Sheik is that it encourages you to practice SDI more than most match-ups. Successfully SDI-ing the Aura Sphere Cancels, forward-air chains, and down-air gimps will lead to optimal positioning and help you lessen the pain that is Lucario's combo game.
Here's a list of moves and the situations they may be used in, and the best way you can SDI them if you are getting hit :
I've found that I can actually jump out of hitstun sooner than I originally thought possible because I think psychologically I've developed a block that lets me think I should get combo'd to 80% when I don't actually have to. I can jump out of some early combos and forward air instantaneously or fast fall neutral air. This should stop some of Lucario's follow-ups, especially if I've DI'd and SDI'd properly.
Getting punished hard is one of the most discouraging things about playing a high-level Lucario. You feel as if you can't play the game and you have no options and then you start playing like an idiot further leading to harder punishes. It's unfortunate that Sheik's punish game isn't up to snuff, but we can still do some damage.
Punishing
"What if I grab Lucario? You know, to avoid the crouch cancelling?" Well... you can down-throw, and if they DI away (as they ALWAYS SHOULD UNLESS THEY WANT AN UP-TILT TO UP-SMASH COMBO TO THE FACE), you can run after them, and then you'll have to read the tech chase. Luckily, you can tech chase Lucario to 60-70%. But you have to be able to react fast and get lucky. Find out what tech option is the hardest for you to react to and attempt to practice that. The tech chase I have the most trouble with is tech-in-place. Even if I get the read, I always miss the re-grab. In these scenarios, I opt for the up-smash to pop them up, up-tilt, then forward-air. You'll find that even though our grabs have been diminished, you may get your biggest gains in percent through them.
When punishing in neutral, or brash approaches (point-blank Double Team, incoming ExtremeSpeed, etc) I stick to forward-tilt. It has enough priority to actually stop a few of these aggressive approaches and the frames are in your favor if you start at the same time.
If the Lucario is above you, DO NOT jump into it. I forget this too, but Lucario's down-air can intercept most incoming attacks and it out-prioritizes almost everything you have. Lucario's down-air also has a deceptively wide hitbox. Unless you're going to punish a falling Lucario above the waist with a well-spaced back-air or a forward-air you're better off catching Lucario's landing. A common mind-game is to single hop once, bait out the down-air or follow their movement, and once they use it, forward-air, up-air or back-air.
Edge Guarding
Funnily enough, Sheik's aerials are her saving grace in the match-up, especially off-stage. Sheik's back-air is an amazing move with a great deal of priority that can threaten so much aerial space. Your goal in punishing is to push Lucario off-stage and then keep him off-stage until you can secure the kill. To get a Lucario off-stage, you can build off a grab, and then forward-throw him. So many people are conditioned to DI away on Sheik's down-throw that a quick forward-throw mix-up will send him flying further off-stage that they would expect. Once off-stage, you need to position yourself to best cover his recovery.
If he is recovering high, always have your back facing him and jump off once as he gets closer and let his ass know that you have a back-air that means business. The back-air is such a versatile move in this regards because it lasts long-enough to cover Double Team approaches, and it's fast and has a ton of priority so you can surprise the opponent and get hits when they think they're safe.
If he will be recovering above the horizontal, gauge at about what time he'll drift into a position that's parallel to you and unleash full needles. He'll most likely hit one or two and you can stack damage or hinder his recovery. The second you release the needles, your goal is to go to ledge and hold it. Periodically jumping off to refresh invincibility. Lucario's ExtremeSpeed can be maneuvered and directed to avoid your needle game, but you can always cover safe options for the Lucario by taking the ledge from him. And because ExtremeSpeed is actually quite slow and you can react to it, from the ledge you can pull back to release and immediately back-air.
If Lucario decides to Double Team through the horizontal and avoid your needles, or if he chooses to recover low, your job is to hold the ledge and not let him reach it. If you're far from the ledge, and he's still low, you should throw needles as you get closer to the ledge. This will stop his ExtremeSpeed and give you time to grab ledge. Never let go of the ledge unless you're very confident of what he'll do or how to stop him.
If you fear that you'll no longer have ledge invincibility, or you know that the Lucario is at the very limit of his reach to the ledge with ExtremeSpeed, this is your chance to say, "**** it!" and drop-off neutral air or back air. Both moves have long active frames and will push the Lucario away.
When edge-guarding, your goal is not to kill, it's to build damage. Sheik is an attrition character, through-and-through. She doesn't combo into kills as easily as she does in Melee; you need to peck and peck at your opponents until your launchers can pick 'em off their crouch-cancelling asses so you can forward air them to death.
Personal Favorite Stages Against Lucario
I included some of my personal favorite stages for the match-up. The qualities I looked for were recovery options, platforms, and enough room to play a comfortable neutral.
In my matches with my roommate (Stauffy, a top-ranked SoCal Lucario), I do not win often because I'm still re-adjusting to basing my entire game on kiting, or ticking off percents and running away. I also stumble at dash-dancing and the micro-spacing is where I falter most. Not to mention, his punish game is constantly improving, and he's still improving in his neutral as well.
But disregarding all that, I truly believe the match-up is winnable, but it is very, very difficult and not in Sheik's favor, at all. There are a few things I can improve on and I'm always theorycrafting (up-smash OoS, boost grabbing for re-grab at low percents, and some other tricksies to name a few) but it's very hard and frustrating.
The cool thing is, I can beat IPK, and that's all that really matters
(kidding... maybe)
Useful Links
Journal
I know you sent me a private message, but I'll reply here because I'd like more people to benefit from it.
v.s. Lucario
Sheik vs Lucario changed subtly due to 3.6b, but the impact is tremendous. Without her back-throw mix-up, you can't really threaten Lucario with 50-50 up-smash kills. With less of a fear of getting grabbed, this means your neutral game may falter because Lucario can shut-down most other approaches by simply holding "down".
Neutral
Crouch Cancelling
Lucario is a mid-to-high weight character with a mid-speed fast fall. This means he can crouch cancel launchers such as...
- forward-tilt
- jab
- up-tilt
- dash attacl
Neutral Baiting
As you can probably guess, on the ground, Lucario is almost never vulnerable. I say almost because if he tosses out a laggy move such as forward-smash or side-b or dash attack and DOES NOT HIT YOU, you can go in and punish.
But how do you force a Lucario to whiff a laggy move? Never outright approach. I sometimes forget this, but a Lucario fears over-committing (moreso than other characters such as Fox, Falco, or Wolf) because Lucario does not have a lagless, get-out-of-jail free card. If Lucario is the mid-to-full stage length away, pressure with needles. This will get to them to think that they have to approach. At short-to-mid range, the neutral changes based on whether or not they have aura.
Short-To-Mid No Aura
If they do not have aura, their best approach move is dash-attack. Everything else is designed to intercept your approaches and fluidly blend into their combos. Dash-attack is relatively quick, and because it lasts a little long, he can catch you if spot-dodge it early and go into a combo.
You cannot out-prioritize dash-attach or overwhelm it with any of your moves. You must dash-dance and catch dash-attack with a pivot grab or spot-dodge late if you sense it coming. If you're confident, you can also jump in place. If you know that your opponent is fond of punishing landings with dash-attacks, then you can jump in place and as you're landing, bait their dash-attack (which you know is coming) and then double-jump to avoid their attack, and fast-fall into grab, forward-air, neutral air, or up-air (if you're ****ing fancy).
The problem with jumping in place is that if you do it often enough, a clever Lucario will say, "**** that, I'm not dumb" and simply approach with an aerial such as forward air, or stand outside of your range and forward-smash you.
Once you feel each other out and know each other's options, this exchange becomes a delicate balance of mixing up your baits (dash-dance pivot-grab, late spot-dodge, jump-in-place, intercepting fair for the oncoming aerial).
Short-To-Mid Yes Aura
Aura shuts-down almost all of your baiting tools. You cannot jump-bait the dash attack, because Lucario can approach with their down-B (Double Team?) and cancel it into a semi-invincible up-tilt that covers your first jump landing, and your double jump attempt in one wide swath. You can't even spot-dodge because up-tilt will catch it too. Your best hope is to read the approach and NOT be caught in shield, in dash-turn, or jumping.
As of my current matches, short-to-mid range neutral against a Lucario with aura boils down to a couple of scenarios and decisions.
- They are at the very edges of mid-range, they will most likely Double Team and cancel it into up-tilt or dash-attack
- The closer they are to you, the more likely they will dash-attack or forward-smash (depending on whether or not you are a jump-in-place antsy-pants)
Understanding short-to-mid when a Lucario has aura is understanding your opponent and what they're likely to do. The biggest differences between Lucario players starts with Short-to-Mid and continues through to their Combo Game which brings me to my next major point...
Survivability
Lucario must have the most impressive combo game of any character in Project M. He can combo floaties just as well as he can combo heavier characters and fast-fallers. He can combo off a recovery, combo off a shield-****, and combo out-of-shield. All he needs is one stray hit on you or your shield.
So what do you do?
Well... you slowly convince yourself that the best reason to play against Lucario with Sheik is that it encourages you to practice SDI more than most match-ups. Successfully SDI-ing the Aura Sphere Cancels, forward-air chains, and down-air gimps will lead to optimal positioning and help you lessen the pain that is Lucario's combo game.
Here's a list of moves and the situations they may be used in, and the best way you can SDI them if you are getting hit :
- Dash Attack (late hit) -> Up and Away
- Dash Attack (early) -> Inside or Down
- Aura Sphere Cancels -> Up
- ExtremeSpeed -> In and Up
- Forward Air -> Up and Away
- Down Air (off ledge) -> Down and In
- Up-Smash -> Down and Away
- Up-Tilt -> Up and Away
- Down-Tilt (low percents, <18%) -> Down and In (tech or crouch cancel grab)
- Down-Tilt (high percents, >18%) -> Up and Away
- Forward-Tilt -> Away
- Jab -> Up and Away
- Dash Attack -> Up and Away
- Aura Sphere Cancels -> Down and Away or Down and In (when hitbox is reversed)
- ExtremeSpeed -> go into it
- Forward Air -> Slightly Up and Away
- Down Air -> Up and Away
- Up-Smash -> Down and In
- Up-Tilt -> Up and Away
- Down-Tilt -> Away
- Up-Throw -> In
- Down-Throw -> Away
- Forward-Throw -> In
I've found that I can actually jump out of hitstun sooner than I originally thought possible because I think psychologically I've developed a block that lets me think I should get combo'd to 80% when I don't actually have to. I can jump out of some early combos and forward air instantaneously or fast fall neutral air. This should stop some of Lucario's follow-ups, especially if I've DI'd and SDI'd properly.
Getting punished hard is one of the most discouraging things about playing a high-level Lucario. You feel as if you can't play the game and you have no options and then you start playing like an idiot further leading to harder punishes. It's unfortunate that Sheik's punish game isn't up to snuff, but we can still do some damage.
Punishing
"What if I grab Lucario? You know, to avoid the crouch cancelling?" Well... you can down-throw, and if they DI away (as they ALWAYS SHOULD UNLESS THEY WANT AN UP-TILT TO UP-SMASH COMBO TO THE FACE), you can run after them, and then you'll have to read the tech chase. Luckily, you can tech chase Lucario to 60-70%. But you have to be able to react fast and get lucky. Find out what tech option is the hardest for you to react to and attempt to practice that. The tech chase I have the most trouble with is tech-in-place. Even if I get the read, I always miss the re-grab. In these scenarios, I opt for the up-smash to pop them up, up-tilt, then forward-air. You'll find that even though our grabs have been diminished, you may get your biggest gains in percent through them.
When punishing in neutral, or brash approaches (point-blank Double Team, incoming ExtremeSpeed, etc) I stick to forward-tilt. It has enough priority to actually stop a few of these aggressive approaches and the frames are in your favor if you start at the same time.
If the Lucario is above you, DO NOT jump into it. I forget this too, but Lucario's down-air can intercept most incoming attacks and it out-prioritizes almost everything you have. Lucario's down-air also has a deceptively wide hitbox. Unless you're going to punish a falling Lucario above the waist with a well-spaced back-air or a forward-air you're better off catching Lucario's landing. A common mind-game is to single hop once, bait out the down-air or follow their movement, and once they use it, forward-air, up-air or back-air.
Edge Guarding
Funnily enough, Sheik's aerials are her saving grace in the match-up, especially off-stage. Sheik's back-air is an amazing move with a great deal of priority that can threaten so much aerial space. Your goal in punishing is to push Lucario off-stage and then keep him off-stage until you can secure the kill. To get a Lucario off-stage, you can build off a grab, and then forward-throw him. So many people are conditioned to DI away on Sheik's down-throw that a quick forward-throw mix-up will send him flying further off-stage that they would expect. Once off-stage, you need to position yourself to best cover his recovery.
If he is recovering high, always have your back facing him and jump off once as he gets closer and let his ass know that you have a back-air that means business. The back-air is such a versatile move in this regards because it lasts long-enough to cover Double Team approaches, and it's fast and has a ton of priority so you can surprise the opponent and get hits when they think they're safe.
If he will be recovering above the horizontal, gauge at about what time he'll drift into a position that's parallel to you and unleash full needles. He'll most likely hit one or two and you can stack damage or hinder his recovery. The second you release the needles, your goal is to go to ledge and hold it. Periodically jumping off to refresh invincibility. Lucario's ExtremeSpeed can be maneuvered and directed to avoid your needle game, but you can always cover safe options for the Lucario by taking the ledge from him. And because ExtremeSpeed is actually quite slow and you can react to it, from the ledge you can pull back to release and immediately back-air.
If Lucario decides to Double Team through the horizontal and avoid your needles, or if he chooses to recover low, your job is to hold the ledge and not let him reach it. If you're far from the ledge, and he's still low, you should throw needles as you get closer to the ledge. This will stop his ExtremeSpeed and give you time to grab ledge. Never let go of the ledge unless you're very confident of what he'll do or how to stop him.
If you fear that you'll no longer have ledge invincibility, or you know that the Lucario is at the very limit of his reach to the ledge with ExtremeSpeed, this is your chance to say, "**** it!" and drop-off neutral air or back air. Both moves have long active frames and will push the Lucario away.
When edge-guarding, your goal is not to kill, it's to build damage. Sheik is an attrition character, through-and-through. She doesn't combo into kills as easily as she does in Melee; you need to peck and peck at your opponents until your launchers can pick 'em off their crouch-cancelling asses so you can forward air them to death.
Personal Favorite Stages Against Lucario
I included some of my personal favorite stages for the match-up. The qualities I looked for were recovery options, platforms, and enough room to play a comfortable neutral.
- WarioWare: platforms and a flat wall allow for Sheik to wall jump to recover; also up-tilt reaches platforms
- Distant Planet: wide stage, platforms above the ledge, and flat wall
- Dreamland: wide stage, high ceiling (Sheik never kills off top), and platforms that Lucario cannot Up-Smash through make this a great stage
- Delfino's Secret: varying platform height so we can up-tilt or even up-smash on a down-throw to platform tech-chase; not to mention HUGE with flat walls. This may be her best stage once the meta develops
- Fountain of Dreams: Melee classic; varying platform height, walls for wall-jumping, and a relatively high-ceiling
- Smashville: Not the best choice once the platform is off-stage, but it may also help with recovery
- Pokemon Stadium 2: Best neutral; wide room for running, platforms
In my matches with my roommate (Stauffy, a top-ranked SoCal Lucario), I do not win often because I'm still re-adjusting to basing my entire game on kiting, or ticking off percents and running away. I also stumble at dash-dancing and the micro-spacing is where I falter most. Not to mention, his punish game is constantly improving, and he's still improving in his neutral as well.
But disregarding all that, I truly believe the match-up is winnable, but it is very, very difficult and not in Sheik's favor, at all. There are a few things I can improve on and I'm always theorycrafting (up-smash OoS, boost grabbing for re-grab at low percents, and some other tricksies to name a few) but it's very hard and frustrating.
The cool thing is, I can beat IPK, and that's all that really matters
(kidding... maybe)Useful Links
- Lucario boards recently published this super-cool super-tome of frame data
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Whoa. Thanks for the in-depth strategy guide!
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
@
AuraMaudeGone
There are still so many conditionals I haven't accounted for but I'd rather release what I have on my mind before I forget or sit on my ass.
For example: it's not always wise to hold the edge against a Lucario with aura because they can cancel their up-B, hit you and then cancel that into another special.
AuraMaudeGone
There are still so many conditionals I haven't accounted for but I'd rather release what I have on my mind before I forget or sit on my ass.
For example: it's not always wise to hold the edge against a Lucario with aura because they can cancel their up-B, hit you and then cancel that into another special.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member
Guest
you have the best timing ever. 10/10
Tarul
Smash Cadet
This thread, unfortunately, still has its share of holes, so I finally decided to stop lurking and try to contribute \0/
My main practice partner is an Ike, so I have a fair bit of experience in the matchup.
Difficulty: 60:40 (fairly easy)
Summary: Your needles and tilts beat out a significant portion of Ike's options. Ike is complete combo food, and Sheik can also edgeguard (comparatively) well. However, Ike excels at punishing Sheik when he finally gets the grab, thanks to nair planes and his strong edgeguard (aka grab ledge -> wait for Sheik's landing lag -> d-smash (f-tilt if there's not enough time) -> rinse and repeat until the Sheik learns to Sheilda or Ike messes up).
Stages:
Dos: Pokemon Stadium 2, Fountain of Dreams, Smashville
Don'ts: Distant Planet, Warioware
Honestly, stages aren't a real issue in this matchup. Platforms help Sheik move around since her movement is not necessarily the most versatile, but also give Ike a way to avoid needles and close in on Sheik.
Ike doesn't really have the tools to approach in this matchup. His shield pressure is questionable, and QD is stopped by needles. The onus is on him to approach in the matchup- you can wall the swordsman out with needles and tilts in neutral.
Don't:
My main practice partner is an Ike, so I have a fair bit of experience in the matchup.
Difficulty: 60:40 (fairly easy)
Summary: Your needles and tilts beat out a significant portion of Ike's options. Ike is complete combo food, and Sheik can also edgeguard (comparatively) well. However, Ike excels at punishing Sheik when he finally gets the grab, thanks to nair planes and his strong edgeguard (aka grab ledge -> wait for Sheik's landing lag -> d-smash (f-tilt if there's not enough time) -> rinse and repeat until the Sheik learns to Sheilda or Ike messes up).
Stages:
Dos: Pokemon Stadium 2, Fountain of Dreams, Smashville
Don'ts: Distant Planet, Warioware
Honestly, stages aren't a real issue in this matchup. Platforms help Sheik move around since her movement is not necessarily the most versatile, but also give Ike a way to avoid needles and close in on Sheik.
- PS2 and Smashville are nice because Ike's QD recovery becomes less of an issue, and both offer platforms to trap Ike, get away, and even recover (in the case of Smashville). FoD is nice because your tilts and up-smash cover the platforms, and the small horizontal boundaries allow fair to kill early, while the high ceiling lets you survive longer from nair planes (sometimes)
- Warioware means that you're going to die from a fair at like 40%. Also, the stage is tiny- meaning that Ike's huge sword controls a lot of space, and the multiple platforms and wall gives Ike's QD even more potency. Distant Planet means that Ike's going to live to absurd percentages thanks to the leaf, wall, and the large boundaries, QD is going to cover a lot of space and tech options, but you're still going to die at relatively the same rate thanks to your abysmal recovery. You do gain an improved neutral (Ike's sword becomes less of a threat when you have more space to utilize), but Ike just generally gains more.
Ike doesn't really have the tools to approach in this matchup. His shield pressure is questionable, and QD is stopped by needles. The onus is on him to approach in the matchup- you can wall the swordsman out with needles and tilts in neutral.
- Needles are key to this matchup. Needles stop Ike's traditional neutral options- QD and dash-dancing. This forces Ike to come to you. Ike is slow and heavy, so whiff-punishing is optimal. Mix up your ground needles and your aerial needles to make it harder to punish. This does not mean spam your needles- make sure that Ike's at a certain range where he can't easily punish you.
- Abuse your frames. Your moves are faster than Ike. Ike's will end up trying to dash dance in closer quarters when they finally get near enough to you that you can't really use needles. In this case, f-tilt and jab are great ways to punish. Your jab is faster than Ike's, and f-tilt is only 1 frame slower. Both lead into great setups (grab/tilt/d-smash from jab, aerial from f-tilt)
- Crouching is awesome.
- Crouching allows you to duck under Ike's bair a lot of the times
- You can CC Ike's jab 1 and 2 and respond with a tilt/jab/d-smash before his third jab comes out. He'll probably start jab->grabbing, but you can punish accordingly by spotdodging/tilting/etc
- Ike's CC is pretty bad. Don't be afraid to d-tilt against the dude.
- Bait and punish. Ike is slow and easy to punish. Try to get him to mess up his nair/fair spacing and punish with a JC/boost grab
- Abuse Ike's terrible shield. Ike's shield is garbage, and he doesn't have very good OoS options. He's probably going to roll/spotdodge or wavedash. When Ike starts to stand in shield, this is your chance to capitalize. Punish with AC fairs -> jab/ aerial needle pressure/ crossup bairs to make him rue his decision. Ideally, you want to land a grab, so the aerials are there to force him to stay in shield until you can secure a grab
- Grabbing is key in the matchup. Ike's tech rolls are garbage, meaning that tech-chasing the guy is very easy if you're not chain-grabbing him already due to bad DI. Boost grabs allow you to cover all of his roll options.
- b-throw/d-throw -> DACUS is a good way to get kills if Ike's over 100% depending on the stage
- Don't be afraid to shield. Ike can't really do anything against your shield (unless he's QD'ing- in that case, please don't shield). Nair and grab OoS are great options, though you can always spot dodge and roll if you're not entirely sure what he's doing. This is especially important if the Ike loves to nair-plane- nair is NOT safe on shield.
- Punishing Ike's Recovery
- Needles stop Ike from descending through the air with QD
- Aerial needles can be used to intercept Ike when he's below you and trying to get to a wall.
- RAR bair is a good way to hit Ike if he's close to the stage and trying to QD/just fall. It's much faster than Ike's Fair, and it has great range as well.
- Aether below stage is very hard to punish. Generally, you should just give him ledge, and try to hit him as he's trying to regain stage control. Ike's ledgedash isn't invincible, his shield is bad, and his getup/roll aren't particularly noteworthy. By forcing him into the corner, Ike can't really do anything to you, while your fast frames and strong shield pressure allow you to continue hurting him.
- If Ike's sword is just at-stage-level because he's trying to sweet spot, you can jump over the sword and time a fair so that the bottom part of the hitbox hits Ike when he rises to grab his sword. This will almost always result in a kill.
- If Ike is not touching the wall and you're holding the edge, you can drop down quickly with invincibility to avoid being hit by his sword, and then jump -> bair/nair/reverse fair him. Up-b in a way to avoid getting hit by his next aether attempt, and then repeat the edgeguard until he dies.
- Needles stop Ike from descending through the air with QD
- Mix up your fairs/up-airs every now and then. Your opponents will generally DI for a fair after a tilt/d-air. If you throw in an up-air every now and then at higher percents, you can net a kill thanks to bad DI. After all, up-air is frame 4. Generally speaking, go for the fair, however, since it gives you stage control and gives you an edgeguarding opportunity.
- Just do normal Sheik things. Ike's that juicy weight where everything seems to work.
Don't:
- Get anxious and run into spaced bairs/fairs/nairs.
- Get anxious and start dash-attacking like crazy. Dash attacks are great for sniping movement, but is very punishable...and more importantly, gives Ike the opportunity to grab you.
- Get anxious and try to challenge Ike with an aerial while he's juggling you. Just get down to the ground moving directing yourself towards the ledge or air-dodging if necessary
- Get anxious and do predictable/panic options while Ike's tech-chasing you. In theory, Ike should be able to cover all of your ground options. Just accept it, and try to mix up your rolls and even purposefully miss the tech to throw him off.
- Get anxious. Seriously, this matchup is about maintaining your cool. You both combo each other to the next planet and back, and you will 0-to-death him on occasion and so will he. Don't let it get to your head.
- Below 20-30%, fair will lead into another fair. Just hold in.
- You want to hold down and away when Ike tosses you off the stage when you're below 70-80%-ish. This prevents most fair follow-ups. Afterwards, up-and-away should do the trick.
- In general, DI Ike's throws:
- d-throw: down and away
- up-throw: up and away
- b-throw: down and away, but up and away works at higher percents
- f-throw: read above comment
- If Ike's fair is going to hit you because you can't jump out/steer yourself away from it (generally, you should be able to go under it or jump over it)
- up-b if you're close enough to use your invincibility frames to get past it
- Airdodge if you're close enough to the stage but don't have enough time to up-b. Hopefully, you'll grab the edge as you fall
- If the above to options don't work, fair sometimes works if he doesn't space his fair properly. If fair won't work, sometimes nair will work (though this puts you in the nair's animation for a bunch of frames- not optimal). Most likely, you will get whacked. Sucks, but you've got to accept it. Hopefully, you didn't jump, so by holding up-and-in, you'll be able to survive the attack and actually recover and not get punished by your landing lag when you get back on stage.
- Dair and up-smash are great at covering Ike's options when you're platform tech chasing.
Links to cool sets: - Mew2King vs Ally (3.6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD9vFjLRkkw
- Vanz vs DJ Nintendo (3.5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrGRm5zVCR8
- Hat vs SwagApocalypse (3.5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fl_3IVvqF4
Last edited:
Tarul
Smash Cadet
Also, I was kinda surprised that no one's said anything about the Ganondorf matchup, considering that everyone and their grandma has a Ganon secondary. Thought I'd share my experience on the matchup.
Difficulty: 65:35 (Easy)
Summary:
Ganondorf's going to try and space aerials and f-tilts so that he can try to kill you in 3 hits thanks to Sheik's awful recovery. Meanwhile, Sheik is going to abuse her speed and projectile to force Ganondorf to whiff, and then punish by combo'ing the crap out of him and then scoring an easy edgeguard. It's a very fast matchup, where single hits can generally lead to kills
Stages:
Try to take Ganondorf to big stages without platforms. Big stages prevent you from dying in 2 hits by improving your survivability without affecting the way Sheik kills (edgeguards). Platforms reduce Ganondorf's movement- Ganondorf relies heavily on wavelands to improve his movement. However, platforms do prevent you from being chaingrabbed, though this really shouldn't be a problem with proper spacing.
Pick: Norfair, Smashville, Final Destination, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 2, Delphino Plaza
Do Not Pick: Warioware, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story (Melee). These stages are all very small and cramped, which is bad because:
Approach:
What to Avoid:
Honestly, there's not really that much to say about the matchup. Just make sure to respect the dorf's range and power, and then punish accordingly. Remember to be patient- Ganondorf wants you to rush into his loving arms. Don't be that Sheik.
Cool Videos:
Hopefully, this should help anyone who's having trouble with the matchup.
Difficulty: 65:35 (Easy)
Summary:
Ganondorf's going to try and space aerials and f-tilts so that he can try to kill you in 3 hits thanks to Sheik's awful recovery. Meanwhile, Sheik is going to abuse her speed and projectile to force Ganondorf to whiff, and then punish by combo'ing the crap out of him and then scoring an easy edgeguard. It's a very fast matchup, where single hits can generally lead to kills
Stages:
Try to take Ganondorf to big stages without platforms. Big stages prevent you from dying in 2 hits by improving your survivability without affecting the way Sheik kills (edgeguards). Platforms reduce Ganondorf's movement- Ganondorf relies heavily on wavelands to improve his movement. However, platforms do prevent you from being chaingrabbed, though this really shouldn't be a problem with proper spacing.
Pick: Norfair, Smashville, Final Destination, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 2, Delphino Plaza
Do Not Pick: Warioware, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story (Melee). These stages are all very small and cramped, which is bad because:
- Ganon can kill at obnoxiously low percents
- You don't have as much space to move around and zone him (The fair is scary)
- Ganon's great waveland now makes him very mobile
Approach:
- The key to this matchup is to bait and punish. Ganondorf is a slow clunky character that relies on getting big hits to quickly close out your stocks. This means that there are large holes in his game where you can punish. You can do this with dash-dance/wavedash -> grabs, dash-attacks, tilts, etc.
- Needles are great at forcing Ganondorf to come to you. If the Ganondorf starts camping hard in the middle of the stage with fairs/f-tilts, don't be afraid to start charging needles to force him towards you and your fast moves
- Aerial needles are great against G-dorf, so long as you do them sufficiently far enough away so that you don't get immediately up-air'd. Ganon really can't do anything except shield or roll away if he's in range, since his dash dance is tiny and his wavedash takes too long.
- Bair and Nair are great spacing tools. Ganondorf will try to space just out-of-reach with f-tilts and fairs. Bair and nair give you some nice range, which will help you get a few hits on Ganondorf in neutral.
- F-tilt is a good tool in neutral. F-tilt allows you to catch Ganondorf when he's close to you since it's fast and also because it's hits upwards. Since Ganondorfs will be short-hopping a bunch, f-tilt is great at clipping them.
- Grab a lot. While Ganon has a great spot dodge, his other OoS options aren't so hot. Generally speaking, DD -> grab after a whiffed attack from Ganon can net you a lot
- Ganon's tech roll is pretty bad. You should be able to cover it very easily with boost grabs. Dash attack if you mess up deciding if he's missed a tech (if he misses a tech, jab him)
- Always try to end your combos with Ganon off stage. Don't try to up-smash/up-air him unless you know you can kill him/get a guaranteed followup
- Get Ganon off stage. Ganon's recovery is pretty bad since it is linear, easily edge-hogged, and lacks distance depending on how he was hit; and Sheik's kit is awesome at punishing it.
- Grab edge. Seriously. It works like 60% of the time.
- Needles can snipe Ganon's double jump or when he's in float
- Rising bair/nair are great if he's in that range where you can't tell if he's side-b'ing or up-b'ing
- Don't be afraid to go out and hit him out of his float/ down-b if you're in range to do so with a bair. Just make sure that it's during the ending frames of up-b, so that you don't get spiked!
- D-tilt can hit Ganon if you don't have enough time to grab edge, and he didn't perfectly sweet spot. It usually leads into a fair, which will generally kill.
What to Avoid:
- Avoid dash-attacking. Dash-attacks are easily avoidable thanks to shielding, as well as the fact that it doesn't hit above Sheik (where Ganondorf will generally be when you're blitzing him)
- Don't get grabbed. Ganon has a nasty chaingrab on Sheik til 40%. However, his grab range is horrible, and you can completely avoid being grabbed by crouching. The main reason you're going to get grabbed is because you messed up a dash-attack, he spot-dodged your grab, or you messed up your aerial pressure. Honestly, the only acceptable reason out of these three reasons is that he spot-dodged your grab; the other 2 are probably technical flubs or something of the sort.
- CC'ing is generally a bad idea. You can only really CC jab. Even then, it's not really worth risking, since getting hit by anything else will generally result in you getting hit by something more potent.
- Respect Ganondorf's range and aerials.
- F-tilt has crazy far reach, and does a lot of damage/knockback. It's got a fair amount of startup, so it is punishable if you're close.
- Fair is very disjointed. The black part of the animation is actually the sweetspot of the hitbox, so remember that when you're trying to dance outside of his range.
- Bair is very quick, and can wave-landed out of. Don't be surprised if he bairs your shield and then wavelands away before you can grab him.
- Up air is strong, fast and potent. Avoid coming down on him with aerials. Aerial needles can work if he's at around a 45 degree angle to you.
- Nair autocancels and leads into jab. A lot of Ganons will instinctively jab after nairing onto your shield. This is usually the easiest way to get a shield grab
- Learn to SDI dair into the stage to tech it. This will prevent you from dying at like 30 from a random dair offstage.
Honestly, there's not really that much to say about the matchup. Just make sure to respect the dorf's range and power, and then punish accordingly. Remember to be patient- Ganondorf wants you to rush into his loving arms. Don't be that Sheik.
Cool Videos:
- Hat vs Junebug (3.5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNQpG5hyFa8
- There really aren't that many videos on this matchup, oddly. If someone has some videos, please inform me!
Hopefully, this should help anyone who's having trouble with the matchup.
Tarul
Smash Cadet
Final one, and then I'm going to sleep \O/
Another one of my practice partners is a Ness main, which also explains my signature. Seriously, hearing "PEEEKAY FLAYEASH" as if he doesn't understand the concept of vowels gets irksome very quickly. Or becomes more hilariously, depending on if you have an odd sense of humor ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Difficulty: 55:45 (Slightly favorable)
Summary:
Sheik's CC game allows for Sheik to capitalize on Ness' poor neutral, her grabs lead to easy follow-ups and combos, and she has great edgeguards against the little boy. However, Ness has disjoints (something Sheik hates), has a good dash dance and aerial mobility, and is notorious for combos, which are especially strong against Sheik.
Stages:
Stages are more personal preference in this matchup than anything else. Do you win neutral and struggle with edgeguarding? Take Ness to a small stage. Do you want to focus on edgeguarding? Take Ness to a large stage so that you can live a while without affecting your kill potential
Pick: Yoshi's Story (Brawl), Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville. Ness players hate Yoshi's Story (Brawl) since the stage isn't great for PK fires/ down-b movement thanks to the positioning of the top platform, and Bushy-brows can mess up up-b. The other stages are generally flat to prevent Ness from platform-cancelling his up-b, while still allowing you to escape his chain-grabs/combos.
Do Not Pick: Distant Planet, Delphino's Secret, Dreamland. You're gonna have a bad time if you pick these stages. While Ness' recovery isn't great (read: it's bad), it's not easy to gimp in the traditional sense. You can keep hitting him so that he never lands, but it's hard to make him not reach the stage unless he drops below the stage for whatever reason. Also, these stages have multiple ways for Ness to recover thanks to numerous platforms for landing/platform canceling.
Approach:
Extras:
Another one of my practice partners is a Ness main, which also explains my signature. Seriously, hearing "PEEEKAY FLAYEASH" as if he doesn't understand the concept of vowels gets irksome very quickly. Or becomes more hilariously, depending on if you have an odd sense of humor ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Difficulty: 55:45 (Slightly favorable)
Summary:
Sheik's CC game allows for Sheik to capitalize on Ness' poor neutral, her grabs lead to easy follow-ups and combos, and she has great edgeguards against the little boy. However, Ness has disjoints (something Sheik hates), has a good dash dance and aerial mobility, and is notorious for combos, which are especially strong against Sheik.
Stages:
Stages are more personal preference in this matchup than anything else. Do you win neutral and struggle with edgeguarding? Take Ness to a small stage. Do you want to focus on edgeguarding? Take Ness to a large stage so that you can live a while without affecting your kill potential
Pick: Yoshi's Story (Brawl), Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville. Ness players hate Yoshi's Story (Brawl) since the stage isn't great for PK fires/ down-b movement thanks to the positioning of the top platform, and Bushy-brows can mess up up-b. The other stages are generally flat to prevent Ness from platform-cancelling his up-b, while still allowing you to escape his chain-grabs/combos.
Do Not Pick: Distant Planet, Delphino's Secret, Dreamland. You're gonna have a bad time if you pick these stages. While Ness' recovery isn't great (read: it's bad), it's not easy to gimp in the traditional sense. You can keep hitting him so that he never lands, but it's hard to make him not reach the stage unless he drops below the stage for whatever reason. Also, these stages have multiple ways for Ness to recover thanks to numerous platforms for landing/platform canceling.
Approach:
- Bait and punish. All of Ness' moves have an irritating amount of disjoint. Instead, try to punish Ness when he lands/whiffs or by CC'ing. Ness has really 4 main approach options. These are:
- Dash attack (You can easily shield grab him out of this, and it's also CC'able at certain percentages)
- Double-jump Cancelled (DJC) Fair (You can nair out of shield to punish him, or CC it. If you he starts d-tilting you, you can shield DI the d-tilts away and then short-hop fair to punish)
- PK Fire (You can literally shield this on reaction. Wave-dash out of shield to punish his epoch of landing lag)
- YOLO grab (It's actually very fast, but you can just dodge it and punish his landing lag.)
- Aerial needles are pretty useful if he starts dash-dancing. It's a great way to pin him down and get in
- Use your movement to help you space. Don't try to grab too much in neutral unless you're punishing a whiff. Ness gets more off a grab than you do, and missing a grab gives Ness a chance to grab. Instead, play a spacing war against Ness with footsies and aerial placement.
- Bair and Nair are great if you're playing the spacing war. Bair and nair give you the reach you need to pierce Ness' movement, while keeping you out of harm's way.
- Don't be afraid to CC. CC dsmash is a great way to get Ness off you if his attacks connect, and CC d-tilt leads to nice follow-ups (watch out for dair and nair though). Just remember to keep an eye for his bair- it's essentially the poor, stupid boy's Falcon knee.
- Side-note: Ness' CC isn't particularly noteworthy. D-tilt serves as a ghetto multihit move that's more a "get off me" option than anything else. Just watch out for the patented d-tilt -> f-smash. It sounds stupid, but works. On occasion. D-smash, on the other hand, hits behind Ness first before it actually hits in front of him (lol).
- Grabs:
- Avoid throwing these out wrecklessly. Ness can punish them with well placed magnet reverses -> bair, or just dodge it with his decent dash dance and then punish with his own more deadly grab.
- Ness has a pretty bad tech-roll, so it shouldn't be hard to tech chase him with boost grabs and such.
- DACUS can kill if he DIs poorly past 100-120% depending on the stage
- Your main priority should be to get Ness off-stage to begin an extended edgeguard.
- The Extended Edgeguard
- The Ness edgeguard requires a lot of awareness and active thinking. DO NOT charge needles on the edge unless he's around the magnifying glass area. You want to use all the time that you can to optimally position yourself for the upcoming recovery. If done properly, Ness shouldn't be able to make it to the stage if he ever has to PK Thunder 2. However, if done poorly, it can make you take 25% or cause death and a gfycat.
- DO NOT LET NESS LAND. The main idea of this is that Ness will keep having to PK Thunder 2 because you keep knocking him off stage slightly. Think of this as the tennis game you have to play with Ganon in Ocarina of Time. Except with the kid who was picked last for kickball.
- Ness players will generally try to recover high against you.
- If the player is close enough to the stage that you can jump towards him and fair. If he's a little too far for a fair, you can RAR bair to reach him. If he's in this position, he could have just airdodged and then drifted to grab ledge, most probably.
- If you're not sure that you can make it in time, don't risk it. Ness gets slight invincibility frames when PK Thunder 2 connects with him, which means that you'll eat 25% and possibly die
- If you hit Ness out of PK Thunder 2 and he connects with the bolt, it will cancel his momentum, and he'll be put into tumble. Return to the stage, and prepare for the next edgeguard.
- Do not attempt to hit Ness if you're unsure if you can make it to him. PK Thunder 2 gives him invincibility frames from frames 1-7 when it connects, so you'll just eat 25%.
- If he's below you, just needle. If your aim's good, you'll hit the bolt. If it's just alright, you'll hit Ness, and have an opportunity to do it again. Just don't forget to grab ledge if he's far enough away!
- If he's out of reach (which he probably should be if he knows the matchup), prepare to intercept him during his flight path.
- Think Fox, except slower, invincible during frames 1-7, and the thunderbolt shows you exactly where he's going. Remember, most Ness players will try to platform cancel or sweet spot the ledge.
- Get there, and space a sweet spot bair. I'd avoid using a fair, since his speed slows down during his trajectory, which means that you might accidentally get hit. Nair is workable, but you'll most likely trade.
- Rinse and repeat til Ness is dead. It takes a while, but if executed properly, Ness shouldn't be able to do anything about it. Alternatively, you could just take him to a smaller stage, and then grab/tilt -> up-smash or f-air.
- Avoid charging needles on the ground or air when he's pressuring you with magnet movement. Magnet can hit you when you're above Ness aerial-needle-charging, and then confirm into an aerial. Magnet can be b-reversed to lead into a bair to punish grounded needle charging
- Do not try to contest his aerial moves (including magnet). Despite the fact that they all seem very weak, they're still disjointed, and thus will win the trades. Just accept it, and try to attack him during his holes. Magnet has a fairly large window after it activates when you can hit him, and you can always punish with fair/bair/nair.
- Be careful throwing out moves. Badly spaced moves can lead to a grab/DJC bair, which usually leads to devastating combos/edgeguards
Extras:
- Always DI his d-throw down and away. It will most likely lead into a fair, but the other DIs will lead into up-air juggles or his deadly bair. The fair is annoying, but it won't kill you.
- Start SDI'ing. SDI can get you out of PK Fire, up-air juggles, and a lot of his multi-hit moves.
- If you're struggling against PK fire and don't know how to SDI, press down on the control stick, press the shield button, and hold the c-stick in a direction. This will cause you to buffer a roll, which will get you out of it. This is technically not optimal, since you can actually punish an overly zealous Ness if you get out of PK Fire before he arrives, but SDI'ing is sometimes difficult.
- Mix up your recoveries. Ness has a fairly hard time punishing Sheik's recovery since his double jump is so slow (meaning that he can't always just hold edge and then punish the landing lag). He will, more than likely, make an educated guess based on where you're positioned, so make sure to mix up where you land to punish Ness' who leave edge too early.
- However, be careful of Ness' dair. It's frame 4, and is a meteor, which usually spells Sheik's doom, since her horizontal recovery is terrible and her meteor canceling leaves a lot to be desired.
- Vanz vs StereoKidd (3.5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze3uQwrsNKI
- Kels vs Aki (3.5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0VXHUUXJBk
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Anyone familiar with using D-Air? If so, how often and when do you know to use it? I've seen some cool stuff with it, but I never know when's a good time to pop people up with it.
4tlas
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2014
- Messages
- 1,298
Edit: Totally thought this was Zelda dair, ignore me
Editx2: Ok for Sheik dair I like using it off the ledge or when returning to the stage from above to turn the tables. People don't see it coming the first time and then start respecting your space to avoid it, so then stop doing it until you think they'll stop respecting it again.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member
Guest
i only do dAir from ledge jump on landing lag when it combos into upair kills
or to save my teammate
or to save my teammate
Last edited by a moderator:
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
The window of opportunity for something like this? :o I was just watching videos the other day and I saw this.
4tlas
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2014
- Messages
- 1,298
Definitely not that good. I'd say even to slightly in Sheik's favor.
Sheik is quite flexible and generally has an option to counter everything her opponent has. So, when playing against Sheik, you feel like you have to be worried about every counter option and you feel like she's overpowering you. But you still have to pick the right ones at the right time, and she has no options to easily shut out her opponent's with aggression. There are few matchups in the game that are 70-30, and I definitely don't think Wario-Sheik is one of them.
Protosauce
Smash Cadet
That clip is crazy! For some reason I think falls a little slower th that in PM tho.
I like to use it the way Tafo uses it in Melee. I use it when I'm platform tech chasing when I'd rather continue to rack up damage than finish the combo. Pops them up into a great fair/uair height at certain percents.
I'm also working on a flashy edge guard where you hard read their position, pop them up of stage with the last few frames, an double jump into a fair. I haven't been able to do it, but frame data says it's should work. It stays out for so long that if you arnt patient enough about it you have to double jump to get back. And if they are too high % the pop up too high. Dunno tho.
Last edited:
Tarul
Smash Cadet
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but you can dair to punish tethers on stage. This usually leads to an upair (and sometimes fair, but reverse fair hitbox is kinda hard to hit).
It can also be used to kill ZSS, Lucas, and Link if you're worried that they're going to Amsah tech the fair or just plain live.... I find that Samus and Ivy float too high for it to be a reliable kill set up against them.
It can also be used to kill ZSS, Lucas, and Link if you're worried that they're going to Amsah tech the fair or just plain live.... I find that Samus and Ivy float too high for it to be a reliable kill set up against them.
Tarul
Smash Cadet
Does anyone have any tips against Squirtle? I've been having a tough time against the turtle because he seems to have Falcon/Luigi-esque movement with the hurtbox of a crouching Kirby.
Specifically:
Specifically:
- How do I approach neutral? Grounded, space aerials, camp with needles?
- How do I deal with Squirtle shield pressure? Nair OoS and grab don't seem to be particularly effective
- How do I edgeguard the turtle?
Protosauce
Smash Cadet
I have success with dash dancing and short hop late bair/fair to space. Needles clank with shell. Make him come to you, on your terms. Down smash if he flubs an approach. A lot of options will trade/clank, so be ready nd reactive.
Nair OoS Is hard vs squirt because hes so tiny. You have to be nearly frame perfect. I'm not to familiar with aggressive SP from squirt as my partner plays a hit & run style. I do know that you can grab him out of withdraw, and if that seems to be a common approach that a properly spaced ftilt works.
As for edge guarding, I haven't been able to compete with Waterfall. I always try t snipe with needles before the up-b, and a hit usually means death. A well timed reverse momentum wavedash ledge grab(pivot wavedash?) works if he trys to sweet spot, and the getup attack over 100% is great too.
Protosauce
Smash Cadet
Do you guys think that Falco or Mario is better as a secondary? Assuming I can play at at same skill level.
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
Depends on what you're struggling with or what you're trying to cover. Mario sounds like a solid pick.
Protosauce
Smash Cadet
I'm really struggling against Marth, Lucario and Captain Falcon(i know this match up is in my favor, but I still have a hard time.
Tarul
Smash Cadet
Honestly, I wouldn't really get a secondary for any of those matchups, except maybe Lucario (and even that one's not too bad, despite how much I complain about his free combos >_> )
Perhaps you could elaborate on what you find difficult about the matchups you've listed?
Also, btw, don't drink the Falcon koolaid. The matchup's actually even- the Falcon just has to be crisp with his tech. Falcon has all the tools to bait out Sheik's kinda meh neutral and then punish. Up-throw -> knee works at like 80%. PM Falcons tend to be slightly lazy since a large portion of the brawl cast is both floatie and susceptible to basic dash-dance punishes.
As for the best secondary to cover those three, I'd say Falco does a better job.
- Marth vs Falco is pretty much the same as Melee (50-50),
- Falco wins pretty handily against Falcon thanks to lasers shutting down Falcon's dash-dance game,
- Lucario has a hard time dealing with projectiles in neutral, and is that juicy weight for pillar combos (However, 1 touch leads to death from his side :\ )
- One of Mario's worst matchups is Marth, since the plumber has really stubby limbs and the blue-haired princess can fair through fireballs. Not undoable, but kinda hard.
- Mario wins the Lucario matchup for the same reasons as the Falco matchup, but now he has access to CC, is a floatie (get-out-of-combos-card), and has a recovery that doesn't make the doctors want to pull the plug (Coma reference ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)).
- However, Mario loses to Falcon since Falcon can nair through Fireballs and is known for killing floaties. Combine this with the fact that Mario's moves aren't fast (though they're not slow either), and Falcon's bait-and-punish game is pretty deadly
tl;dr Honestly, you're better off going Sheik against these characters. The Falcon and Marth matchup are great for improving fundamentals, and I would recommend toughing it out and mastering them. Falco is a better option than Mario, but I'm not sure if the tech skill required is worth it.
Last edited:
Tarul
Smash Cadet
Also, what's the general consensus on Sheik's losing matchups?
So far, it seems to be:
What are your thoughts on:
So far, it seems to be:
- Fox
- Wolf
- Metaknight
- Squirtle
- Mewtwo
- Roy
What are your thoughts on:
- Zero Suit Samus
- Kirby
- Ice Climbers
- Rob
- Game and Watch
Last edited: