Scalding FLUDD: Useless? Perhaps not.

[ItsRainingGravy]

I feel as though quite a few people are sleeping on the potential that Scalding FLUDD has to offer, due to how different in function Scalding FLUDD is in comparison to the other two FLUDDs. Primarily because of how the other two FLUDDs function as a way to gimp Mario's opponents while they are trying to recover, and also due to the noticeably short range of the Scalding FLUDD. But just because it is different, should we immediately disregard it as the inferior option just because it doesn't gimp people like the other two do?

I'm actually of the belief that it is far better than the opinion that most people have of it right now. In fact, it could give Mario an edge in certain key areas in which he is lacking in Smash 4. Without further ado, here is my current opinion/findings of the Scalding FLUDD thus far:


Scalding FLUDD Advantages
+ Deals 1-9 damage depending on number of hits. While this may seem small, this is actually pretty important on Mario in Smash 4, due to how low his damage output is on this game. So every little bit of extra damage Mario can deal, the faster he can bring his opponents to a range in which he can KO them with a Smash Attack or another move (such as Explosive Jump Punch).
+ Has a transcendent hitbox. Meaning that other attacks cannot clank with it, and therefore something like Marth's Fair won't be able to cancel it.
+ Scalding FLUDD cannot be absorbed by Ness PSI Magnet, or G&W Oil Panic.
+ The maximum amount of damage it can deal makes it stronger than all of his tilts, Uair, sweetspotted Nair, and all throws besides back throw. It is also only 1% less powerful than Bair, and the front hitbox of Dsmash (uncharged).
+ It can stop opponents from approaching Mario, as it has hitstun. This is especially useful against aerial opponents.
+ You can use it to approach your opponents as well, in particular from the air. This somewhat covers Mario's weakness of not having a Forward Air to pressure opponents with, and it has more range than Bair.
+ Useful for pushing and cornering an opponent to the edges of a stage.
+ Can catch opponents airdodging, spotdodging, and rolling.
+ Has very little endlag after spraying water.
+ Because it is a projectile (more like a disjointed hitbox actually), this reduces Mario's chances of being punished. At least by melee attacks.
+ It can still be useful for edgeguarding, as it still has hitstun. Best used before the opponent uses their Up B recovery. Against certain characters, you can build damage against them with Scalding FLUDD by spamming it as they are trying to grab the egde.
+ Has the fastest charging time out of all of the FLUDD variants.
+ Just by having a fully charged Scalding FLUDD, it can threaten opponents into feeling like you are suddenly going to use it on them. This can sometimes make them more susceptible to grabs, or other types of punishes.
+ Pretty much does everything Fire Orb does, only better. And doesn't take away your better fireball options.
+ An uncharged Scalding FLUDD deals as much damage as a fully charged one.

Scalding FLUDD Disadvantages
- An uncharged Scalding FLUDD deals as much damage as a fully charged one.
- This move is incredibly unsafe against a shielding opponent, as they can just roll behind you and punish you.
- Has the worst range out of all of the FLUDDs.
- Needs at least a little bit of charging time to have decent range.
- Missing in general leaves you wide open.
- Can sometimes miss opponents at point blank range.
- Can't gimp like the other two FLUDDs can.
- Because it has hitstun, it refreshes an opponent's Up B recovery.
- Has a bit of startup lag to it. Not terrible, but enough to let opponents see it coming.
- Surprisingly enough, this move can stale with repetitive use (not that you should be spamming it anyways).
- Trading with this attack is very bad, as you're only going to do 1% damage to the opponent.
- The above problem is further amplified by how Scalding FLUDD doesn't clank with other projectiles.
- It can be "reflected", although this just blocks it as opposed to sending it back to Mario.
- It can be countered by Marth, Ike, Lucina, Shulk, and Lucario. Other counters can work against it but are much less effective (Little Mac/Peach/Greninja).


So then, Scalding FLUDD does indeed have quite a few downsides to it. But it also has a substantial amount of benefits behind it as well. So it's definitely not a cure all for all of Mario's problems, and there are cases in which it indeed can do worse than the other two FLUDDs. Though I feel as though it has its fair share of benefits to at least equal the other two FLUDD variants in terms of effectiveness, and in some matchups it could even be better than the other two FLUDDs.

Ultimately though, the point I am trying to drive here is that it is most certainly not useless. Nor do I feel as though it is outclassed by the other two variants of FLUDD. So I feel as though more people should, at the very least, give it a chance before immediately dismissing it for the other two FLUDD types.


So then, what are your thoughts on the Scalding FLUDD? What matchups, if any, do you think it would be more effective to use in comparison to the other FLUDDs? Do you think it has potential? Or do think it is still not up to par with the other two FLUDD types? Leave your thoughts down below!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fire orb has a notable ability to start combos on people that get cleanly hit by it, but perhaps you have a point that Scalding FLUDD is a source of disjointed damage. I just feel like this move has no real synergy with anything else in Mario's kit especially since...you can not B reverse this if I recall. Plus I would rather try Fsmash usually. I would run this vs Peach maybe. Basically in matchups where you absolutely will not edge guard and need air approach moves.

 

[BSP]

I just feel like this move has no real synergy with anything else in Mario's kit especially since...you can not B reverse this if I recall.

You have no idea how much I wish FLUDD could be B-reverse. I feel like Mario's at his best in edgeguarding when his back is to the opponent, but then you can't FLUDD stupid decisions without turning around first. If you're facing them, you lose Bairs utility and most of the trapping potential for Uair.

Back to the topic, I'm glad that you're trying to explore everything Mario has ItsRainingGravy. I can't really test out scalding FLUDD against anyone because I'm pretty limited to searching for good people on FG mode, but on the wii U, I'm going to give everything a fair shot.

If I had to guess though, I see HPF outshining this one by a good bit just because how valuable retreating to the ledge is as an option for pretty much the entire cast. HPF should be able to wreak havoc on that strategy in general, and you're already found out that range is the only thing it seriously loses from normal FLUDD.

However, it is adding another source of % to Mario's arsenal, and it is probably a good alternative to characters that aren't bothered much by FLUDD or HPF.

You said Scalding FLUDD still doesn't clank with other projectiles, so it's transcendent. That could serve some use, since the only way the opponent could avoid eating damage in the air is to Airdodge. Otherwise, they're got transcendent 9% coming at them, which is decent damage.

I haven't gotten to mess with Fire Orb. Is it like Dhalsim's Yoga Catastrophe? By which I mean, how bad is the endlag. If Mario can shoot Fire Orb and then move right behind it, he'll be able to set up some sick ledge pressure, whereas with scalding FLUDD, you're immobile.

Hmm, I wish you would've added this to the HPF vs FLUDD thread just so we could have an advanced FLUDD compendium going.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fire Orb is most definitely punishable by rolling behind Mario as the move comes out. It is not a good option for controlling the ground like Dhalsim Yoga Catastrophe. You CAN however follow it for legit easy to do combos and pressure. In order to use Fire Orb, your opponent has to already have been committed to a move or jump, or they need to be far enough away from you that you are out of range to be punished during its startup.

Fire Orb probably outclasses Scalding FLUDD, but sacrificing Fast Fireballs for it is not attractive. Too bad we can't have both and get Vanilla SF4 traps.

I would feel much better about Scalding FLUDD if it did at least 12% personally.

 

[BSP]

Fire Orb is most definitely punishable by rolling behind Mario as the move comes out. It is not a good option for controlling the ground like Dhalsim Yoga Catastrophe. You CAN however follow it for legit easy to do combos and pressure. In order to use Fire Orb, your opponent has to already have been committed to a move or jump, or they need to be far enough away from you that you are out of range to be punished during its startup.

Fire Orb probably outclasses Scalding FLUDD, but sacrificing Fast Fireballs for it is not attractive. Too bad we can't have both and get Vanilla SF4 traps.

I would feel much better about Scalding FLUDD if it did at least 12% personally.

Ok, yeah. I rewatched the video. The move is mad slow.

Mario doesn't really have many great midrange or footsie options, but a transcendent 9% could help to fill that gap. With the minimal endlag and the constant damage regardless of charge, Scalding FLUDD might demend some respect if mario mixes it in with his pressure. Also, due to its transcendence, it would halt all approaches unless they have super armor. I could see this possibly having some use vs Sonic in order to control just how quickly he can run around us.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Fire orb has a notable ability to start combos on people that get cleanly hit by it, but perhaps you have a point that Scalding FLUDD is a source of disjointed damage. I just feel like this move has no real synergy with anything else in Mario's kit especially since...you can not B reverse this if I recall. Plus I would rather try Fsmash usually. I would run this vs Peach maybe. Basically in matchups where you absolutely will not edge guard and need air approach moves.

Fire Orb, unfortunately, I can't bring myself to like. I could see it having some use, but due to the insane startup lag (more than twice as long as an Fsmash) and due to how the endlag only lets you move after 80% of the move's duration has already completed makes it feel very unattractive to me. Not to mention, it has many of the same problems Scalding FLUDD has. The biggest problem being that if you shield it, you can easily roll behind Mario and then punish him. The only times I could ever see it being useful are:

- Edgeguarding, which Scalding FLUDD can do more effectively since it is faster and actually has knockback.
- If the opponent is cleanly stuck in the Fire Orb, you have JUST enough time to follow up with an EJP or an Fsmash.

Other than that though, I see no real merit to it, which disappoints me as it was something I was highly looking forward to when it was first revealed. And with how Scalding FLUDD already covers one of those areas with more potency, I don't see myself ever wanting to trade the sheer versatility that the other Fireballs provide over Fire Orb, which I find to be far too predictable and punishable to make up for what little reward it can offer in a match.

And while Scalding FLUDD may lack synergy with the rest of Mario's kit, this is not always a bad thing. Because when something lacks synergy, it becomes more useful in regards to unpredictability. For example, Mega Man. Nothing of what Mega Man has I would call synergy, and yet it still works. Not just because you can zone with nearly half of the things he has, but opponents have to be ready and adapt to each of the different types of projectiles that Mega Man has, as they all have unique functions and purposes. This, in turn, can lead them to being punished by certain moves in Mega Man's moveset that they would've otherwise not been susceptible to. At least that's how I see it anyways. And that's also how I see Scalding FLUDD.

Scaling FLUDD might not exactly flow all that well with everything else Mario has, but it doesn't really have to. It's weakness of being easily punishable by shields is both a blessing and a curse. It is a curse due to the obvious reasons that if someone blocks it, you're pretty much a stationary pinata for a good 3 seconds. But this is also a blessing in disguise, because simply by having a charged Scalding FLUDD, it is going to force opponents to block more against you. This, in turn, will give Mario more chances to be aggressive, and allow him to get in on his opponents. Such as with a Dash Grab. And if your opponent gets cocky and tries to punish you? Give them a nice hot bath in scalding water. And if this makes them irritated and go on the offensive? It would be your turn to go on the defensive, and punish/shieldgrab them accordingly. If they go back on the defensive though? Well hey, you have another opportunity to either pelt them with fireballs or charge another blast of Scalding FLUDD.

So it definitely has its fair share of strengths. But yeah, it isn't without flaws. The fact that it is disgustingly unsafe on shields means that you should never try to spam it, or use it without forethought. That is probably the biggest flaw that Scalding FLUDD has. And yeah, not being able to B-Reverse it is another huge bummer too. So I agree with you there. I will add that to the list of weaknesses.

You are also correct in saying that it would probably be better to use the other FLUDDs to edgeguard with, and that Scalding FLUDD should only really be a choice in a matchup where you can't really do that. For example, I would always go with FLUDD/HP FLUDD against Ness/Marth/C.Falcon/Ganon/Little Mac/etc. Though I would also always opt for Scalding FLUDD against opponents with much better recoveries, such as Jigglypuff/Peach/DK (copter ignores FLUDD pushback)/etc.


Also, here's the range on Scalding FLUDD in comparison to Fsmash:

Fsmash: 2.5 Blocks
Uncharged Scalding FLUDD: About 3 Blocks, but it becomes much more potent at 2.5 Blocks
Slightly Charged S.FLUDD: About 3.5 Blocks, but it becomes much more potent at 3 Blocks
Half Charged S.FLUDD: About 4.5 Blocks, but it becomes much more potent at 4 Blocks
Max Charged S.FLUDD: About 5.5 Blocks, but it becomes much more potent at 5 Blocks

So essentially it can be double the range of an Fsmash. And this also applies to using it in the air. And you can angle it too.

Anyways though, I will add more of my thoughts/responses when I get back from work.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Potentially useful gimmick:

Do not FULLY charge Scalding FLUDD, and use it as an empty jump approach.

This is with the assumption that you have conditioned your opponent into blocking against you for throwing out Scalding FLUDD. The key thing is you can shield to interrupt charge stances, which means you can grab people while landing with the charge stance.

Now if only Mario's reward was better...shoutouts to @Flameleon if you're still around.

 

[BSP]

A2Z, remember when you said scalding Fludd could possible be an anti air?

Think about it vs peach. Floating peach can't block or airdodge. This could be a big deal in the peach MU if Mario is packing scalding FLUDD.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2Z, remember when you said scalding Fludd could possible be an anti air?

Think about it vs peach. Floating peach can't block or airdodge. This could be a big deal in the peach MU if Mario is packing scalding FLUDD.

Yeah as I said, that's definitely one of the matchups I would use Scalding FLUDD in because you aren't gimping her and you need everything that will force her to respect your spacing in the air.

Get her hot and wet, and maybe she'll let you have control.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is exactly what I like to see. Honestly without customs Mario is kind of a letdown but if customs are still legal throughout the meta I could see them taking Mario a decent way further. He's got a lot of specific MU coverage with his customs IMO which is really handy. This is basically fire breath with a quick charge and an angle that can keep those pesky weavers and hard to gimp characters out of your trouble zone. I think it's best used on those in the air that are coming at you from what I can tell since I THINK you can angle it. I wouldn't use it on a grounded opponent beyond the pressure mindgame because of how long it is.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Back to the topic, I'm glad that you're trying to explore everything Mario has ItsRainingGravy. I can't really test out scalding FLUDD against anyone because I'm pretty limited to searching for good people on FG mode, but on the wii U, I'm going to give everything a fair shot.

If I had to guess though, I see HPF outshining this one by a good bit just because how valuable retreating to the ledge is as an option for pretty much the entire cast. HPF should be able to wreak havoc on that strategy in general, and you're already found out that range is the only thing it seriously loses from normal FLUDD.

However, it is adding another source of % to Mario's arsenal, and it is probably a good alternative to characters that aren't bothered much by FLUDD or HPF.

You said Scalding FLUDD still doesn't clank with other projectiles, so it's transcendent. That could serve some use, since the only way the opponent could avoid eating damage in the air is to Airdodge. Otherwise, they're got transcendent 9% coming at them, which is decent damage.

Hmm, I wish you would've added this to the HPF vs FLUDD thread just so we could have an advanced FLUDD compendium going.

Thank you. Mario is my favorite character, always has been. I aim to make him reach his full potential in Smash 4.

HPF will, indeed, still be the staple option for most of Mario's matchups at a competitive level. There are more characters on the roster with a recovery you can potentially gimp as opposed to characters you can't really gimp at all. Also, I recently figured out that HP FLUDD has the same range as Default FLUDD, it only takes longer to get there. Which means Default FLUDD is pretty much entirely outclassed. Scalding FLUDD, on the other hand, still has its uses like you said. It won't be the choice he goes to for the majority of his matchups, but in the few matchups where HP FLUDD doesn't grant him that many advantages, Scalding FLUDD could turn the tide in the Italian Plumber's favor.

Also, I wanted Scalding FLUDD to have it's own topic because of how overlooked it is, and because it serves a completely different function in contrast to the other two FLUDDs. So I thought it would've been better to have it separated. However, if it is requested enough, I might look into somehow merging the two topics together. But for now, I believe it is fine. Though I am thinking about making an entirely separate topic in which we could discuss when to use either version of the FLUDD, though that might be a bit too cluttered.

Mario doesn't really have many great midrange or footsie options, but a transcendent 9% could help to fill that gap. With the minimal endlag and the constant damage regardless of charge, Scalding FLUDD might demend some respect if mario mixes it in with his pressure. Also, due to its transcendence, it would halt all approaches unless they have super armor. I could see this possibly having some use vs Sonic in order to control just how quickly he can run around us.

Indeed. The only real issue with Scalding FLUDD is that its uncharged range is indeed a little bit unfavorable, considering how it has the same range as his Fsmash at that point (though you cna use it in the air). But when it has semi/full charge, it can really help keep his opponents off of them and shut down their approaching options.

And yeah, this does help against Sonic. Though you have to be careful with him, because he can potentially roll under the Scalding FLUDD due to how it arcs. Fast Fireballs will be better at shutting him down on the ground. Though Scalding FLUDD can help whenever he's in the air mostly.

Potentially useful gimmick:

Do not FULLY charge Scalding FLUDD, and use it as an empty jump approach.

This is with the assumption that you have conditioned your opponent into blocking against you for throwing out Scalding FLUDD. The key thing is you can shield to interrupt charge stances, which means you can grab people while landing with the charge stance.

Heh, this sounds quite humorous. I might try this whenever I get the chance. Situational, but could still potentially work.

A2Z, remember when you said scalding Fludd could possible be an anti air?

Think about it vs peach. Floating peach can't block or airdodge. This could be a big deal in the peach MU if Mario is packing scalding FLUDD.

She could use Toad to help her counter the Scalding FLUDD...sometimes (other times Scalding FLUDD beats it out or trades). But other than that, Scalding FLUDD is more helpful than HP FLUDD in this matchup IMO.

Also at higher percents (60% and up?), using Scalding FLUDD against Peach can somtetimes make her drop her veggies. Which is pretty nice.


Speaking of Toad, I decided to test Scalding FLUDD against a good portion of counters/absorbers/reflectors. And I learned a couple of shocking things:

Counters Scalding FLUDD


Blocks Scalding FLUDD but doesn't reflect it


Trades, Beats, or is Beaten by Scalding FLUDD due to luck


Cannot Absorb Scalding FLUDD, or just doesn't really work that well against it

Reflectors and Absorbing Specials don't really work against Scalding FLUDD. (I will be updating the OP with my findings)

 

[BSP]

Also, concerning Sonic, the other FLUDDs are great deterrents for him Spring -> Dair'ing away from you.