Samus Vs. the "Top Tier"

[Savez]

Ok the title is cheesy as hell but don't mind it, I had to catch your attention in some way. I know this question might be part of the matchup discussion thread but I have such a WoT that I thought it deserved a thread of his own. If any mod thinks otherwise, I'd encourage him to join this post with the rest of the other topic. Also this is in no way meant as a rant (ok maybe a bit).


I had some problems with a couple of characters before but with a little bit of practice and more awareness of what Samus can do I figured out how to beat chars like LittleMac or Yoshi.

Recently though I've run into some very good people in ForGlory that gave me a run for my money generally with the same characters and I'm thankful for that since I have 75% winrate but mostly against people who fall for pretty easy charge-shot baits.

The characters in question tend to be ones with a lot of speed, mobility and good shorthop aerial options (or at least that's what I find difficult to deal with) like Fox, Sonic, Falcon, Mario, Ness and Falco (these last two present other issues I'll detail later).

Apart from inescapable strings (Fox utilts, Ness multiple fairs, Mario low%combo) I have a hard way trying to engage these type of characters mainly because my dashattack is SO EASILY punished by just a shield+grab that's not even funny and if I try to do the same thing with them I get punished myself since the startup on the grab is slower that their recovery of the hit on the shield plus a random jab.
I also roll way too much and that's especially bad with Samus since it has happened that they grabbed me before the roll animation was even over so I need to be more careful with that and more mindful of enemy roll and try to read those but that just comes with training I guess.

I have 2 other options I can think of as an approach method: Zair and dash+shielding

• Faking out the dash attack and ending with a shield to then maybe connect with the grab is the only thing that works for me. The problem is that it obviously doesn't work all the time so it has to be alternated between other things that clearly don't work
• Zair and shorthop aerials in general I don't find very useful as an approach tool. I use all the aerials at my disposal when I have to control the air space and they are amazing but when the enemy in on the ground the floatiness of Samus and the not so good range on the aerials doesn't work in her favor. And even if I used the Zair more I don't know what to link it into.

Vs. most of the other chars my main way to deal damage low% is long range missiles or the down-throw into random aerials (mostly uairs) combo. With most of the chars I listed I can't do this because they either reflect my **** at me or are fast enough to grab me in the endlag of the missiles/grab or approach me with shorthops.

About enemy shorthops how am I supposed to deal with them? Utilt? Usmash is the most useless **** this character has because sometimes (maybe when they have low% I haven't checked) even if I hit them with the first hit of it they just ignore the rest of the attack leaving me wide open and honestly it's BS.
Utilt I guess is a viable option but I don't know why most time I end up doing an usmash instead of a utilt especially out of a dash. Is that something that's supposed to happen or is the low distance from he edge of the analog stick compared to a classic controller that makes me input the wrong attack? I've tried even in training and it seems that I can only use tilts if I let the stick first return to neutral for a split second, causing Samus to slide a bit to stop the run, and then I can use the tilts just fine otherwise even if I tilt the stick only a little bit on the top while dashing it will always end with a Usmash and even pretty quickly out of the dash. Please tell me if I'm doing something wrong or it's supposed to work this way.

Let's not even mention the jab. It's a lost cause.

Now let's talk about priorities. It seems like we got the short end of the stick most of the time. Yoshi's dash attack, Ness sideB and many other just make a full chargeshot disappear into thin air (as if Ness needed more priority love) but the thing that left me puzzling was an istance with C.Falcon and one with DarkPit. With CF we both Dsmashed standing still but only he hit me, same with DarkPit but this time with the Fsmash. Is it because maybe I smashed a splitsecond before them and they clipped me in my leg and arm respectively? Shouldn't we both got hit since I should have had an hitbox there anyway?

The last chars I need help with are Ness and Falco. Ness bacause I don't know how the get past the "I have the most bull**** disjointed hitboxes in the game with crazy priority and even if you try to zone me from afar I just use your **** to heal. And let's not even mention the easiest consistent killoption in the game. A backthrow" and Falco because he straight up negates chargeshot with lasers or reflector, missiles and even the grab since he can reflect even that back at me.

Thanks for having read all of this! I hope I haven't forgotten anything. Any help is appreciated!

 

[leiraD]

Definitely tough problem. I can only relay what I've found to be useful, not what might be textbook metagame answers.


Dealing w/characters: Since the earliest days of smash, the space animals' shine has made for tough matchups for Sammy players. In smash4, I've found them much easier to deal with. I think it really helps to bait the shine and force them to over-use it. If you're using charge shots and super missiles, the reflector is a definite problem. However, if you're using seeker missiles, those characters are either forced to engage or perpetually reflect. The best part is that even if they reflect a seeker missile, it doesn't carry enough momentum to make it back to you. You can further enclose them by charging and holding onto a full charge shot. This is also true for Mario's cape, and Ness's baseball bat. Over the course of a match, I've found that after enough seeker missile pestering, they are less keen to rely on their reflectors and easier to hit with a charge shot. That being said, its not a cure, but simply an aid.


Dealing w/dash blocking: For this, run toward as if you're going for a dash attach, but grab instead. Again, not a cure, but you'll get a few grabs in and it will cause them to reconsider their shield approach.


Dealing w/short hops: For a sh directly above, I tried the using usmash, but like you, I found it to be ineffective. Right now, I like using screw attack. Utilt works, but its a little more difficult for me to time and land. Arguably, Utilt might be a better option... Time will tell.


I don't know that any of that will really be of help to you, but give it a shot and let me know if any of it works for you.

 

[Savez]

@ leiraD Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I definitely need to mixup some more seekers here and there but anyway the problem isn't the ones that spam the reflect but the one that know how to use it in conjunction with the speed of the char but that's about mindgames i guess.

I've said the same thing about dash-blocking in the first bullet point. It works but I don't know if I can use it all the time. Maybe yes since I have to play reactive and not proactive with a character like Samus at least up until I manage to get a grab going.

About shorthops can you tell me if what I said about the Utilt/Usmash out of a dash is just me messing up the inputs or it's like that and I have to deal with it?

 

[leiraD]

@ Savez

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, lol. Let me do a little testing with the Utilt/Usmash and I'll let you know what kind of results I find.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Who are these "top tier"? Or is this just a simple match-up thread?

 

[Savez]

Who are these "top tier"? Or is this just a simple match-up thread?

Have you at least read the FIRST LINE OF THE POST?

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Have you at least read the FIRST LINE OF THE POST?

Ok.. ;P

To be honest, I didn't. Heh heh.

But I suppose my though process was like "eventually the matchup thread will have a good-looking OP with all the right information right there about specific matchups" and like... Top Tier is such an nebulous title at the moment that I didn't take the word seriously.

Yeah... Samus's down-smash is entirely situational and usually, you could have use a better move in its place if you have the ability to hit with down-smash anyway.

In that instance with dark pit, was it the disjoint that got you? Or was it range? Because the ranges on a lot of moves don't appear like they actually are.

enemy short hops? Ummm this is a bit general, but I am sure you can use zair and if they are in the air, they have to land so grab or something. This part seems more like a general matter of handling situations that, honestly, you should really think hard on because it is hard for me (and others if they can't answer this question) to give a straight out and definite answer on simply short hops because there are such huge chains of events that could potentially take place as you try to react (or not) to short hop approaches.

edit: oh, and try to use samus's grab more. It does work. ;P

 

[Savez]

In that instance with dark pit, was it the disjoint that got you? Or was it range? Because the ranges on a lot of moves don't appear like they actually are.

Eh that's the part that bugs me. I thought that the explosion on my Fsmash should catch him but that wasn't the case. I dont get it. I'll try to recreate the situation with a friend.

enemy short hops? Ummm this is a bit general, but I am sure you can use zair and if they are in the air, they have to land so grab or something. This part seems more like a general matter of handling situations that, honestly, you should really think hard on because it is hard for me (and others if they can't answer this question) to give a straight out and definite answer on simply short hops because there are such huge chains of events that could potentially take place as you try to react (or not) to short hop approaches.

edit: oh, and try to use samus's grab more. It does work. ;P

That's the problem. I use the grab a lot especially if when they approach me on the ground but when they close the gap shorthopping I can't do that since I end up in their jab combo or grabbed myself before my grab comes out. Most of the times I just try to roll away but that's even worse since they can combo me down.

EDIT: rereading your answer I guess the best way to approach shorthop aerials is just not standing still shielding and instead making distance with my sh+zair or anything like it. Makes sense.

I'll try to provide some videos. When I found the last guy that handed my ass to me I had the SD full and couldn't save anymore replays D:

 

[Jones534]

Eh that's the part that bugs me. I thought that the explosion on my Fsmash should catch him but that wasn't the case. I dont get it. I'll try to recreate the situation with a friend.

Yeah it seems like the flame on her fsmash has a small hit box. I really dislike it because it should hit but it just doesn't....

 

[Teben]

Falco, Greninja and the occasional very good Little Mac have been my troublesome match ups. Regarding some of the others you mentioned I might not have great advice since I've not encountered too much trouble there. I can see how a good Mario and maybe Sonic could possibly give Samus a hard time though, since quickness at close range seems to be her Achilles heel.

Dealing with these quick moving characters can be tough. Options Samus can rely on for many other characters just aren't viable. It's easy to just state these things matter-of-factly when you're writing them out, but we all know how spotty this can get. Depending on their approach, I usually go for the following tactics:

Opponent approaches via dash attacks that are difficult to punish:

• intercept with grab / running grab
• intercept with grab while charging charge shot.
• do NOT shield, then grab
• retreating pivot missile or forward tilt

Opponent approaches via rolls:

• down smash
• leave bomb and move through their roll in the opposite direction; it leaves the bomb at their feet. Afterwards, consider any or some of the following:
  • Since they are quick, do NOT immediately follow up with an attack.
  • Drop a second bomb and move even further away. Kite them through a string of bombs (this move gets neglected, but it works. However, they'll likely catch on after two or three.)
  • Run away from them and use a pivot missile to put something between you two. If they run fast, try running VERY far before doing your pivot missile.
• turn, jab x1, get away
• If they are RIGHT NEXT TO YOU, screwattack

Opponent approaches via shorthops (in Samus' favor I think):

• Short hop grapple beam
• Short hop forward air
• Dashing up smash
• Short hop charge shot
• Dashing screwattack
• Shield, then ROLL AWAY, do not follow up with an attack

I'll also add that avoiding any given approach by shielding, then just concentrating on getting away and creating some distance will often do you more favors than the typical tactic of defending -> immediate counter attack.

 

[Savez]

Falco, Greninja and the occasional very good Little Mac have been my troublesome match ups. Regarding some of the others you mentioned I might not have great advice since I've not encountered too much trouble there. I can see how a good Mario and maybe Sonic could possibly give Samus a hard time though, since quickness at close range seems to be her Achilles heel.

Dealing with these quick moving characters can be tough. Options Samus can rely on for many other characters just aren't viable. It's easy to just state these things matter-of-factly when you're writing them out, but we all know how spotty this can get. Depending on their approach, I usually go for the following tactics:

Opponent approaches via dash attacks that are difficult to punish:

• intercept with grab / running grab
• intercept with grab while charging charge shot.
• do NOT shield, then grab
• retreating pivot missile or forward tilt

Opponent approaches via rolls:

• down smash
• leave bomb and move through their roll in the opposite direction; it leaves the bomb at their feet. Afterwards, consider any or some of the following:
  • Since they are quick, do NOT immediately follow up with an attack.
  • Drop a second bomb and move even further away. Kite them through a string of bombs (this move gets neglected, but it works. However, they'll likely catch on after two or three.)
  • Run away from them and use a pivot missile to put something between you two. If they run fast, try running VERY far before doing your pivot missile.
• turn, jab x1, get away
• If they are RIGHT NEXT TO YOU, screwattack

Opponent approaches via shorthops (in Samus' favor I think):

• Short hop grapple beam
• Short hop forward air
• Dashing up smash
• Short hop charge shot
• Dashing screwattack
• Shield, then ROLL AWAY, do not follow up with an attack

I'll also add that avoiding any given approach by shielding, then just concentrating on getting away and creating some distance will often do you more favors than the typical tactic of defending -> immediate counter attack.

This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for! This and the recent video @ n00b posted on reddit helped me greatly!
Thanks!

 

[Teben]

Glad to hear it was helpful. Good luck!

 

[DerpaDoo]

f-air, run backwards pivot f-tilt, shorthop away and space a good bair attack to prevent shield grabbing. These are defensive maneuvers I use a lot against aerial approaches and dash attacks. F-air's priority is pretty awesome especially compared to sex kicks and other fairs. Also, for really fast characters, up-b works out of shield. Falco's are easy to edgeguard with utilt, or dair if they fire up.

 

[Savez]

f-air, run backwards pivot f-tilt, shorthop away and space a good bair attack to prevent shield grabbing. These are defensive maneuvers I use a lot against aerial approaches and dash attacks. F-air's priority is pretty awesome especially compared to sex kicks and other fairs. Also, for really fast characters, up-b works out of shield. Falco's are easy to edgeguard with utilt, or dair if they fire up.

To perform OoS upb do I have to have tapjump on?

 

[n00b]

Yes, unless you plink jump~B while holding up in your shield. If you use standard button layout you can use your thumb to press both Y~B at almost the same time.