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What would you have them as then?Not sure I agree with your bars and style listing, but that's personal preference.
I fixed this, thanks.Also f smash or up angled f smash data is wrong
Uair isn't a combobreaker, or rather, it doesn't have the hitbox placement or speed to be an effective one. (Combo breakers are usually nairs with body hitboxes that come out frame 3).You will find lots of people who will agree with your assessment @ KuroganeHammer , a handful who won't, and everyone is hoping for a benevolent patch.
The two points I'll argue against is that up-air is definitely a combo-breaker, watch any of my videos for proof, and Samus does not actually get comboed easily because of the floaty mechanic (easy to land strings against, hard to true combo, player actually has control).
I'm looking at your data in more detail and trying to understand a few things.
Right now you have say Fox's up-smash vs. Samus' f-smash.
Frame 11 last hit of fox's up-smash, frame 11 last of Samus' f-smash.
56 for FAF on Fox, 50 for FAF on Samus. This should mean fox-upsmash is more punishable than Samus F-smash, 56 - 11 = 45 vs. 50 - 11 = 39.
Why do I never feel this is the case in game? Or am I missing something in interpretation of FAF = first actionable frame?
I'm really looking forward to dissecting the data to figure out what is in fact shield-grab possible and what isn't. I know some moves have gotten me punished in the past for attempting a shield grab and I curious if it's built into the game or just my reaction time is crap.
I can't do this because otherwise everyone would ask me to make their character max difficulty, because for some reason everyone thinks that their character is the hardest character in the game to play.Also I don't mind about offense and defense, but if Shulk is max difficulty Samus is definitely max difficulty too
There's might be baseless, Samus' isn't. You said yourself, her poor frame data makes it inherently difficult to be successful with her as you have to be smart and methodical, condition and mix up constantly because most stuff isn't safe. She also has unique and unorthodox moves like Bombs and and 2 hit zair, whose use is both numerous without being immediately obvious. You have to learn to play in a meta where grabs are incredible without having access to a decent one yourself, or the means to deny grabs easily with a poor jab. Her being 'bad' makes her inherently more difficult to play, but on top of that she has a lot of stuff that makes her unique and difficult to master.Uair isn't a combobreaker, or rather, it doesn't have the hitbox placement or speed to be an effective one. (Combo breakers are usually nairs with body hitboxes that come out frame 3).
Fox's usmash has more shieldstun, but Samus' fsmash should be safer when spaced properly.
I can't do this because otherwise everyone would ask me to make their character max difficulty, because for some reason everyone thinks that their character is the hardest character in the game to play.
I put the bomb frames from frame 52-80 because it explodes on frame 81. 1-18 for the explosion definitely looked wrong to me, but that's what it says in the data so I may have to recheck.EDIT2: I think you have the bombs a little off. The bomb explosion only lasts a few frames (I think it's 3) for hitting other people and lasts a bit longer for putting samus into bomb jump. The hit detection box lasts 18 (or 15?) frames starting on frame 52 (I think). That's how I understand the data between playing and looking at the dantarion stuff. The 4% hit might also only hit right as the proximity timer starts (but I'm not sure about that anymore). It's hard to tell with all those synchronous timers that don't seem to do anything. Must be coded somewhere else.
EDIT3: Ftilt probably needs to be updated. It looks like it is a weird hybrid of 1.0.4 and a mediocre version of the patch notes. The hip check box is 7 for up or down angle and 6 for neutral. The BKB/KBG was also updated, we tested it against ROB and is definitely 30/100 instead of 15/90 now for all of the non-sour hits. I don't know the priority order for the boxes, but it seems like 5/7/8/6 (neutral) and 6/8/9/7 (angled). Link to patch notes: http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-1-06-patch-notes.399037/
Sorry, what are you asking?Also my earlier comment on the jump-squat 6 frames and 3 frames air-dodge, I did a 1/4 speed mode side by side with a few moves that I know the frames for - like d-smash 9 frames and SH->AD looks like it's 5 frames before intangibility. This is really important since Samus play involves quite a bit of SH-AD.
I can check this for you but I'm certain that it will just be 8 frames.Also, if you don't mind checking, the airdodge can be canceled into z-air. There's an interaction where if you airdodge -> z-air you get more landing lag out of the z-air, we all assume it's the air-dodge 22 frames, but no one knows for sure.
Toot away man, that was sick. FF Uair has indeed saved me from so many things lately it deserves its credit. Its everything to her.Can we quantify that shieldstun? It shouldn't be that much more, 11 damage min vs 16 damage max at best.
Some moves I know I can't punish on reaction with shield grab, like little mac's dash. Your numbers seem to indicate it's me that's the problem, my reaction time, not inherently built into the game.
And yes it definitely does break combos, it even breaks jabs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes#t=28
or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes#t=260
or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3KGQEYaUt4#t=348
It can break sheik f-airs too.
Also on the debate of complexity, I mean Shulk's monados have complex interaction with basic game physics but right now there are likely a handful of people on Earth who can pull off that last clip's combo in the middle of a match. I'm not tooting my own horn, anyone can do it with practice, it's just *really complicated*. There's a lot of practice and meta that went into that one burst of true combo 50 damage.
I have an "end lag" column in my guide, I am updating it to reflect this frame data, which disagrees by only a few frames with the Rohins IASA frames.@ KuroganeHammer is there any way you could be bugged into making a column for your website of ( last hit frame - FAF)? That would make the vulnerability/punish windows of opportunity trivial to look up.
Also my earlier comment on the jump-squat 6 frames and 3 frames air-dodge, I did a 1/4 speed mode side by side with a few moves that I know the frames for - like d-smash 9 frames and SH->AD looks like it's 5 frames before intangibility. This is really important since Samus play involves quite a bit of SH-AD. Also, if you don't mind checking, the airdodge can be canceled into z-air. There's an interaction where if you airdodge -> z-air you get more landing lag out of the z-air, we all assume it's the air-dodge 22 frames, but no one knows for sure.
Of course. Sorry. Yeah it would be nice to have all the information easily readable for the whole cast.Great yes, thanks Xygonn. But I'm particularly interested in knowing the end lag on my opponents' moves.
It should be 5 frames, I think I mistyped 6 when I buffered an input wrong.Sorry for the lingo @ KuroganeHammer , I'm asking if your jump-squat FAF is actually, really, 6 frames. Because if it is then a short-hop into air-dodge is a 9 frame startup, which seems incredibly long from my own fiddling and frankly just playing the game. Basically do a short hop, and try to air-dodge as fast as you can. What frame from beginning the jump to start of air-dodge do we get invincibility? Very important for Samus mains.
Absolutely not. By the way, it's FAF - First hit frame - 1. This is basic math iirc..@ KuroganeHammer is there any way you could be bugged into making a column for your website of ( last hit frame - FAF)? That would make the vulnerability/punish windows of opportunity trivial to look up.
Sorry I don't know the lingo. Also is that sarcasm or are you serious? It would be odd to go to all the trouble of finding the end-lag on moves and making the table and not include the punish window of opportunity explicitly.Absolutely not. By the way, it's FAF - First hit frame - 1. This is basic math iirc..
You say this like I'm making numbers up.8 really, still seems slow next time I break out my elgato I'll test it too.
Planning on doing this at some stage, but probably after all the characters have basic data up first.It's a pity we don't have frame data for a full SH, fast fall SH.
They are pretty close:8 really, still seems slow next time I break out my elgato I'll test it too.
Sorry I don't know the lingo. Also is that sarcasm or are you serious? It would be odd to go to all the trouble of finding the end-lag on moves and making the table and not include the punish window of opportunity explicitly.
On a note related to frame data, I'm still after much testing unsure what gives the best combo follow up window between using d-air high on the opponent and getting only 4 frames autocancel or going very deep with the d-air and eating the full aerial landing-lag. If you autocancel, there are many frames floating down to land. It's a pity we don't have frame data for a full SH, fast fall SH.
Well, both attacks will have the same shield stun. So you would subtract that number from the frames until you can act to find your opponent's frame advantage. For SH dair (frame perfect) you would get 4 frames of shield stun on the late hit (best case for this actually plus on cross up it puts you further behind them and pushes them away) taken from the 14 frames, giving them 10 frames advantage. On the crossup they will have 5 frames of shield stun (strong hit) against the 20 frames of landing lag, which puts them at 15 frames. If you do it with the late hit, 16 frames advantage. With the frame cancel, it's going to be basically 15 frames before you can act to follow up the combo vs 17 to combo on the spike. Defensively, the high hit is gonna be better. Offensively the autocancel hit will give you two extra frames (this is all talking about frame perfect stuff though).Agreed Xygonn, they are pretty close and it would be cool to get a real breakdown in terms of frames + shieldstun. Last night I watched a stream randomly of MVG players from florida, I don't have time to watch much so this was truly random. It was MVG_ryo (I think?) who beat the living tar out of the other MVG players using a hell of a lot of SH-FF d-air. I'm still not clear as to what is safer on shield (cross up is obviously) but the FF D-air landing deep sure looked good even against one of the best little mac's in the world.
The possibility of frame cancelling is swaying my opinion to FF go deep..
Because imo Shulk is a character with far more depth than Samus.About that difficulty tho... It's fine if you don't wanna change it but I'd like to hear why Shulk is rated as more difficult. I posted reasons she should share his rating if its max above in case you missed it
Any part of this you disagree with? (excluding the Shulk stuff, obviously)There's might be baseless, Samus' isn't. You said yourself, her poor frame data makes it inherently difficult to be successful with her as you have to be smart and methodical, condition and mix up constantly because most stuff isn't safe. She also has unique and unorthodox moves like Bombs and and 2 hit zair, whose use is both numerous without being immediately obvious. You have to learn to play in a meta where grabs are incredible without having access to a decent one yourself, or the means to deny grabs easily with a poor jab. Her being 'bad' makes her inherently more difficult to play, but on top of that she has a lot of stuff that makes her unique and difficult to master.
Shulk will always be jumping around and swinging his sword, only Jump and Speed monado change the way he goes about this (and shield I guess but that just gets camped) so I can't see how he would get a max difficulty rating and Samus wouldn't
I'll step in and take a whack at this:Any reasoning behind that?
Any part of this you disagree with? (excluding the Shulk stuff, obviously)
I went into training mode just then and pulled off the combo you just described on my third try.Maybe Aerodrome really can, right now, go pull off a stage cancelled f-air into dash attack into up-air into charge shot true combo and then follow it up with missile cancelled reverse charge shot tether trump in the next breath.
Being a bad character does not make the character difficult to use. Just look at Lucina.Maybe I'm completely ignorant of how hard it is to jump off stage and f-air gimp someone with Shulk. Or hit the B button to "shield" when I'm at high % and "smash" when I want to knock someone off.
It must be really hard to have a perfectly normal roll and not worry about short-hop air-dodge. Life is complicated when your jab and shield grab is totally normal and functional too. Let's not forget really specific, small hitboxes often requiring they be angled. Let's not forget that totally dysfunctional Shulk up-smash. The complexity/difficulty/depth is just staggering.