Sacrificing a lamb: Mii legality

[popsofctown]

This is a wallpost about ruleset theorycraft so if that's not your thing you're beyond welcome to ignore unimportant posts like mine.

I spend a lot of time thinking about Mii legality. I want the game to be the best it can be, and by default, I tend to think that means allowing as many characters as possible. So I have been in support of full Mii legality for a long time, but I have doubts. My mind is not totally made up, so maybe that will make this post more interesting than one from someone with an adamant position.


The thing is, I think if [size and specials unrestricted, and i mean that for the rest of this post] gunner, swordfighter, and brawler were banned today, we wouldn't lose much. To try to clarify my thoughts about why that is, I will try to compare it to the consequences of banning Mario from Smash 64. I'll list reasons that banning Mario from Smash 64 would be horrible, and why they don't really apply to Miis.

1. Mario has fans of his series that would be disenfranchised if they couldn't connect with that character.
Miis aren't characters at all, and attaching one size fits all standard attack movesets to Miis kills most personal attachment you can have with a Mii even if you design it carefully

2. Banning Mario would reduce the total number of legal characters by about 12%
Only 5%

3. Banning Mario would reduce the total number of viable characters by about 12%
There is a clear, different design philosophy involved in the design of the Mii fighters, ranging from Gunner having some incredibly unique moves to Swordsman feeling like garbage. It seems rather likely that some of the Miis will fail to actually be viable, or the true frontrunner Mii will have overbearing, less carefully designed implications to it's mechanics that push other characters in the game out of viability. Possibly both. Banning Miis probably reduces the number of viable characters by less than 1% - or even increase.
Miis seem to have possibly received less debugging time and code proofreads than other characters which increases the likelihood of powerful ATs that centralize the game being discovered.

It's also naturally the case that the more characters a game has to begin with, the lower the percentage of viable characters will be available, because it's harder and harder to have a true niche. Granted, this game's balance initially seems very strong, but it's something to keep in mind. This game has lots of characters


4. Banning Mario disencfranchises every current Mario player that has put lots of time into the character.
Almost no one has put any time into Miis because they are afraid they won't ultimately be legal

5. Banning Mario makes the game less accessible to new players who started out playing at home and had never heard of the scene, and were maining Mario before.
The illegality of Miis in for glory reduces their use considerably even outside tournament play

6. Banning Mario could set a confusing or dangerous precedent for banning other characters*
Asterisk because this might be slippery slope fallacy and not even a concern at all. But since Miis are so different, the connection to banning other characters doesn't seem clear or likely


It's really my realization that the stakes are so low that makes my heart harden towards Miis, rather than that they are caustic or really causing so much problems that they need to be banned. So little is lost, especially once everyone is on board with custom specials and we have so much variety available in the game.

Of course you can't consider a ban at all without at least some upside or point to it, no matter how low the costs are, so here's some of the benefits I see to banning them (or banning resized ones, which is similar to me).

1. Tournaments run faster due to players not needing to upload specifically sized Miis from DS. With the custom special projecting developing, it's clear that most characters get their needs covered with extra slots to spare, but it's almost impossible to anticipate Mii fighter needs. There's something like 40+ viable special combinations, at least for Gunner, and any change in sizing preference means that DS upload will be necessary to get which of the 40 combinations someone wants. Unlike Palutena, you can't just go fwip fwip fwip and put it up.

2. Controversy, discomfort, and enforcement issues stemming from parameter tweaks are avoided. There's all sorts of things to talk about there, it'd probably be worth a whole post on its own to discuss the concept of a character that can slightly change weight and height.

3. We avoid the risk of players getting attached to Mii characters, and then a gamebreaking bug destroying the character because Miis got less time in the debug room and code checks than other characters. This is kind of a big one. Piston Punch, and the lack of patches for Piston Punch, suggests that maybe Miis get a little less attention (while the Dragon Rush nerf affirms our faith in Nintendo's watchfulness over custom moves). The totally dissatisfying feel to Mii swordsman's kit suggests the same thing to me, it might be the character that feels the most horrible to me, even with Wii Fit trainer I get why someone could be into that and what that is doing for somebody. It's an undesirable powder keg to have players getting into Miis, and then have something bad come along. It may be unclear whether the glitch makes them worth banning, and it could be a catch 22 whether to harm the Mii players by turning back at a later point. As an example of how it can suck to have a glitch discovered late in game lifespan, think about IDC: we had to make a poorly enforceable ban just to keep Meta Knight legal. And then people had confirmed instances of it being used illegally in tournament play and getting away with it, damaging the integrity of the game. If we opened the the box and knew about IDC day one, it'd be a lot easier to consider just banning the character and still having 95% of the cast and not having to deal with an almost unenforceable rule.

It goes the other way too, it's quite possible that the Miis lack of TLC could result in an infinite being discovered that works on Miis and not other characters, and then all the Mii players are screwed because they have to quit the character because it's getting wrecked. Obviously there would be no reason to dish out a ban for that, but it would just suck for the community as a whole for a bunch of people to have to switch mains.

4. We make the game a little more inviting for For Glory players, since Miis are the only characters whose normals can't be practiced against in For Glory. Three dimes and a nickel of worth in that.

5. It becomes a lot easier to reach solidarity and accelerate towards strong standardization in the game if Miis or resized Miis are banned. It's another big thing that's big for the health of the game. Sometimes a quick decision is better than the right one, and consistent experiences between locals, regionals, and nationals can be good for the smash community as a whole. It seems pretty hard to convince everyone quickly that Miis of all kinds should be legal. Piston Punch is a bs reason, but right or wrong, it's something that's hampering progress towards standardization either way. And there's so many other initiatives to explore and expand and improve in rulesets. I feel like I would rather spend time pushing for full list stage striking than defending my right to not play bad marth, not play bad megaman, and decide whether brawler is a good version of mario or mario is a good version of brawler


So, some stuff from the other side, although I'm sure posters will provide more:

1. Banning Miis sucks because aside from the statistical percentage evaluation of how many characters are being lost, they offer unique playstyles and customization flexibility inherent to their design philosophy. You can't put a price on that.

2. You lose the most visually customizable and swag characters in the game (although if people make Kanye West Miis and stream can you run into legal issues? Ew...)

3. When my opponent wants to pick random in friendlies, I have to turn customizations off to ice out equipment, so the only way I can use customizable moves is a Mii. (haha..)


If you read this far congrats. Help me make up my mind, tell me why I'm right or wrong. Flame me. Challenge me to Mii Swordsman money matches to prove me wrong Thanks for reading if you actually read.

I'm usually so pro keeping things legal and stuff that I can't believe I wrote this.

 

[T0MMY]

Bans on characters in competition has nothing to do with comparing a ban on Mario in Smash 64.
That was nonsense.

The other reasons are nonsense for other reasons:

The amount of time it takes to upload a Mii from a 3DS is negligible. Mii players already have their Mii ready to upload from their 3DS from or will make sure to have a 3DS available to them if they do not own one. If any of these players use the 3DS as a controller, use special button mappings, and names it will actually save the tournament time (faster to do all these all at once rather than without the Mii/3DS connection).
Controversy means squat regarding bans. If it mattered you'd have to reasonably ban Little Mac, Roaslina, Lucario, and Diddy Kong as well as any further slippery bans. Competitive nonsense.
Speculation on "game breaking bugs" is not Mii exclusive - this reason is again about as nonsensical as "controversy". Arbitrary and subjective opinion have no grounds for bans in competition. Utter nonsense.
For Glory players would have to adapt - it's a gross violation to try to give online-only players special advantages over other players. Fairness is a key competitive principle. Once again, competitive nonsense.
This is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. Banning Mii only serves to segregate players based on their character preference and has already caused strife in my region. Some players refuse to attend tournaments, others are hosting their own due to the ban, and other problems when NO RULING AT ALL WOULD HAVE PREVENTED ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS.

In competition there are no bans/restrictions/limits placed on the game/players - with sole exception of something breaking the game IN THE LITERAL SENSE (like locking the game up with a freeze glitch) or something about as drastically devastating to the competition itself.

Anyone who believes otherwise needs to exit the competitive arena discussion and join the other casuals in a make-up-your-own-rules scene and leave the competition to the competitive players.

 

[Balgorxz]

or we can just use standard weight miis for each class and ban one inch punch like japan, there fixed.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Wow okay thanks for actually ignoring those who actually main and dedicated months of time into the character.

This right here is the disrespect I'm talking about and it makes me want to leave the smash community.

 

[Charey]

Banning Mii's will not get more people to want custom moves, in fact by taking out Miis you are actually hurting your own proposal because then it is easy for people against custom moves to point out that you are wanting to ban the fully custom characters so your logic defeats itself.

You don't care much about Mii's but to the people who play them do care about them so you are still cutting a character that is liked by some competitive players.

Also banning something because something *might* be found that is broken is really dumb, we *might* find something broken about Mario's Fludd, but we haven't found anything like that. The closest thing is the piston punch tech, which is only a OHKO on Jigglypuff and maybe a few others in some rare conditions, wobbling was never banned and killed anyone at any %.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Piston Punch is sloppy but it's not even the best up special so it doesn't really make sense to ban (Hurricane Kick is just better); that glitch is better at looking powerful than being powerful. Standard weight is actually a really big nerf to the Mii Fighters as well; that's a non-trivial choice to make.

Here's the deal; it's chicken or the egg on having them legal. Most players are scared to use anything that might be banned. They don't learn Mii Fighters. We don't get good tournament data on good builds for them. It seems like you could use just about anything. It seems like there are too many builds to prep in advance. What happens if we just ignore that problem and insist on having them legal? Well, if players had confidence they wouldn't be banned, they'd be explored. If they're explored, builds will standardize. It becomes easy to have plausible Mii builds on-hand, especially since there are hypothetically infinite slots for Mii builds.

The concerns over their design amount to Sakurai mind reading. It's futile. We have no idea what Nintendo intended. It's clear For Glory is not a serious competitive mode for a variety of reasons so it's not useful guidance. My guess is that Mii Fighters are banned in it because you could easily use a Mii Fighter designed to look obscene and they wanted to look out for the kids (I've seen it in Mario Kart 8 actually, maybe the smash team was more keen on saving the children). We have a blank slate from which to figure out this game. It would be presumptuous to assume the Mii Fighter characters are less valuable than any of the others. They have unique movesets and don't play any "worse" than any of the other characters. So far the (barely explored) Mii Swordfighter seems incredibly bottom tier, but the other two seem like pretty decent characters and someone has to be bottom tier so there's no real use in reading into that (Zelda is probably a worse character than Mii Swordfighter, and I doubt you can draw any useful conclusions about making rulsets from that fact). I've also heard it argued (and can imagine personally) that he might just be underrated so there's that too...

I just don't see the appeal in the ban here. There are all kinds of reasons we wouldn't want to ban them, and actually banning them seems to gain us nothing. It's a lot like customs in general really; imaginary logistical concerns shouldn't get in the way of real gameplay variety. If we just open the gates a bit, this game will be able to really grow. I'm not sure how important Mii Fighters will be to that, but exploring the unknown is just what is really needed so we should be keeping them around.

 

[InLivingTuna]

Guys, we need to ban Battlefield from tournaments, that way the game's more inviting for For Glory players.

 

[Pazx]

This is potentially the worst thread I have ever seen and I've spent time on /pol/. What do you get out of banning miis? Absolutely nothing. What do you lose? A very quantifiable something. Bad idea.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This is potentially the worst thread I have ever seen and I've spent time on /pol/. What do you get out of banning miis? Absolutely nothing. What do you lose? A very quantifiable something. Bad idea.

+1

I read the first few paragraphs of tortured, lousy reasoning and came to the conclusion that I didn't want to read the rest.

 

[cree318]

Not gonna lie, I like mii gunner a lot. He's a fun character and seems to fit my playing style well. But let's be honest, banning miis doesn't really make sense in a practical sense. Worried about weight/height? Have only the standard guest miis as the ones you can use. Still on the fence about allowing custom moves? Set each mii to a 1111 set. It's pretty simple and banning them just seems dumb.

 

[popsofctown]

I've now heard of one person maining a mii, up from zero. That's good

 

[Judo777]

IDC was known about super early into Brawls metagame. Literally, the rule was in place in early 2009 at my first tournament along with no homing attack stalling. No, MK wasn't getting banned regardless of the circumstances because people are stubborn.

 

[warriorman222]

I've now heard of one person maining a mii, up from zero. That's good

Hi there. How's your day? Snow's horrible here.

 

[mega4000]

Piston Punch is sloppy but it's not even the best up special so it doesn't really make sense to ban (Hurricane Kick is just better); that glitch is better at looking powerful than being powerful. Standard weight is actually a really big nerf to the Mii Fighters as well; that's a non-trivial choice to make.

Here's the deal; it's chicken or the egg on having them legal. Most players are scared to use anything that might be banned. They don't learn Mii Fighters. We don't get good tournament data on good builds for them. It seems like you could use just about anything. It seems like there are too many builds to prep in advance. What happens if we just ignore that problem and insist on having them legal? Well, if players had confidence they wouldn't be banned, they'd be explored. If they're explored, builds will standardize. It becomes easy to have plausible Mii builds on-hand, especially since there are hypothetically infinite slots for Mii builds.

The concerns over their design amount to Sakurai mind reading. It's futile. We have no idea what Nintendo intended. It's clear For Glory is not a serious competitive mode for a variety of reasons so it's not useful guidance. My guess is that Mii Fighters are banned in it because you could easily use a Mii Fighter designed to look obscene and they wanted to look out for the kids (I've seen it in Mario Kart 8 actually, maybe the smash team was more keen on saving the children). We have a blank slate from which to figure out this game. It would be presumptuous to assume the Mii Fighter characters are less valuable than any of the others. They have unique movesets and don't play any "worse" than any of the other characters. So far the (barely explored) Mii Swordfighter seems incredibly bottom tier, but the other two seem like pretty decent characters and someone has to be bottom tier so there's no real use in reading into that (Zelda is probably a worse character than Mii Swordfighter, and I doubt you can draw any useful conclusions about making rulsets from that fact). I've also heard it argued (and can imagine personally) that he might just be underrated so there's that too...

I just don't see the appeal in the ban here. There are all kinds of reasons we wouldn't want to ban them, and actually banning them seems to gain us nothing. It's a lot like customs in general really; imaginary logistical concerns shouldn't get in the way of real gameplay variety. If we just open the gates a bit, this game will be able to really grow. I'm not sure how important Mii Fighters will be to that, but exploring the unknown is just what is really needed so we should be keeping them around.

if piston punch is so inferior, then why every single time miis are allowed at tournys everyone use it? I mean come on! I've never seen hurricane kick, everytime someone allows miis it becomes a piston punch fest every single place I go.

 

[Jigglymaster]

if piston punch is so inferior, then why every single time miis are allowed at tournys everyone use it? I mean come on! I've never seen hurricane kick, everytime someone allows miis it becomes a piston punch fest every single place I go.

*aHem* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdcgwDARUoQ

 

[2ndComing]

if piston punch is so inferior, then why every single time miis are allowed at tournys everyone use it? I mean come on! I've never seen hurricane kick, everytime someone allows miis it becomes a piston punch fest every single place I go.

that is very wrong sir, the best Mii Brawler main never touches Piston Punch anymore

 

[Gil.]

From the Mii-Fighter Skype group, and a Mii-Fighter second, I was quite surprised to find out that I don't exist.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Almost got Cancer reading it.

Why are you overthinking something so simple?

Are Miis broken? No? Then there is nothing more to talk about, at the end of the day you minimize bans, not maximize them.Banning **** because "no one really uses them anyways" is asinine.

 

[DanGR]

Almost got Cancer reading it.

Why are you overthinking something so simple?

Are Miis broken? No? Then there is nothing more to talk about, at the end of the day you minimize bans, not maximize them.Banning **** because "no one really uses them anyways" is asinine.

I'm not saying they should be banned, but there are other traditionally competitive reasons to ban something other than because it's "broken."

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I'm not saying they should be banned, but there are other traditionally competitive reasons to ban something other than because it's "broken."

Which would matter if good reasons popped up.
But I'll be more " fair"

1. Special variety is not a problem. Its part of the draw some have to customs. Size issues are easily managed by presetting.

2. The weight change is meagre. I see nothing but nitpicking to complain about a character shifting up to.... 3 in weight. Max weight is the same as shulk and mega. Min weight same as luigi and villager. If we trust our data collectors. Mii weight barely changes. in fact instead of hypothetics who has actually tested the disruption of this minor weight change. What combos are changing, from 97 to 102 weight. Reach does matter damn shame the extra lag gimps the hell out of them all.

3. is actually nonsense because it presumes a possibility that is just as much a possibility on everyone else. "When all things equal...ban miis". Hell the example was MK...who was not a custom character....so despite history giving no reason to believe Miis will have anything like IDC... we should ban them because like the other 49 characters they might.... might as well ban Mewtwo from now because he MIGHT have a gamebreaking bug. Come on.

4. More inviting? You gonna remove lag? The moment you have customs its not like For Glory, not that any of this matters as omce you enter the competitive scene you leave for glory rules, or are we banning Battlefield and smashville?

5. Lol wot. Then ban everything to 1 stage to be standardized, ban everything but 5 characters because 51 characters is too much to deal with on fundamentals. Sometimes a bad decision sticks, consider that.


Mii talk and custom talk is far longer discussion 90% of the time then it needs to be. You check **** out and if it doesn't work then you know because you tried. You don't need to write a dissertation on items for example, we have ALL tried them and have similar if not identical viewpoints on them in competitive. It feels the majority of mii and custom talk is from over thinking.

Hell Smogon did some crazy bans for the meta they wanted to create but all of that came with trial.

 

[T0MMY]

if piston punch is so inferior, then why every single time miis are allowed at tournys everyone use it? I mean come on! I've never seen hurricane kick, everytime someone allows miis it becomes a piston punch fest every single place I go.

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's called an argument from ignorance - just because you haven't seen a praying mantis in China doesn't mean they don't exist there.
Regardless, even if Piston Punch is the superior special, that doesn't mean squat regarding bans. It's the same effect as Roy's reverse Blazer in Melee as well as a few other quirky oversights and none of them get banned in competition - they get championed and exploited to their fullest!
Welcome to the Competitive Discussion boards, please leave your bans at the door.

 

[mega4000]

*aHem* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdcgwDARUoQ

online tourny...

 

[mega4000]

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's called an argument from ignorance - just because you haven't seen a praying mantis in China doesn't mean they don't exist there.
Regardless, even if Piston Punch is the superior special, that doesn't mean squat regarding bans. It's the same effect as Roy's reverse Blazer in Melee as well as a few other quirky oversights and none of them get banned in competition - they get championed and exploited to their fullest!
Welcome to the Competitive Discussion boards, please leave your bans at the door.

Why should I leave my bans at the door when every major event is banning miis outside 1111? hu.. you are really funny.. You don't represent the competitive scene, and you are a part of a minority that insist on forcing rules that nobody considers official. Let's see what happens at evo shall we? because you are not the only one sending emails and talking to organizers out there. As i stated before, either everyone gets their alternate moves or NO ONE gets anything. You can be in denial all what you want, that doesn't change the fact that most tournys doesn't allow customs and that includes miis outside 1111.

 

[hey_there]

Why should I leave my bans at the door when every major event is banning miis outside 1111? hu.. you are really funny.. You don't represent the competitive scene, and you are a part of a minority that insist on forcing rules that nobody considers official. Let's see what happens at evo shall we? because you are not the only one sending emails and talking to organizers out there. As i stated before, either everyone gets their alternate moves or NO ONE gets anything. You can be in denial all what you want, that doesn't change the fact that most tournys doesn't allow customs and that includes miis outside 1111.

Miis don't need customs on to have access to all their specials. It's like enforcing a rule that Link is banned from pulling out bombs on the ground and is only allowed to pull them out in midair. Completely unnecessary, totally scrubby, and a weird twisting of the game's own rules.

 

[mega4000]

Miis don't need customs on to have access to all their specials. It's like enforcing a rule that Link is banned from pulling out bombs on the ground and is only allowed to pull them out in midair. Completely unnecessary, totally scrubby, and a weird twisting of the game's own rules.

Miis are customizable characters created from the custom menu(outside the fighting game menu). Also I don't see any major accepting miis outside 1111 :D

 

[Djent]

Response: "NO!"

 

[T0MMY]

Why should I leave my bans at the door when every major event is banning miis outside 1111?

Did I say anything about "major events"?
No, I said this is the Competitive Discussion boards. Discussions about competition; this is not the "we should do exactly what TO's of cherry picked events are doing" boards.
These discussions have been referred to by those TO's which you may be referring to.

Based on that post, you might be new to this, so I'd suggest reading Playing to Win as a starter (not saying it's the end-all be-all to the discussion, but suggesting it as a starting point). Pay careful consideration to the What Should Be Banned section.

hu.. you are really funny.. You don't represent the competitive scene, and you are a part of a minority that insist on forcing rules that nobody considers official.

Nice try, but nobody said I was.

The only thing I stand to try to represent is reason, logic, and truthful argument. That kind of grounding to stand on is much more powerful than egotistical notions which may be the groundless assertion you are pushing, but if that is the case then I will just have to strongly disagree with such notions.

As i stated before, either everyone gets their alternate moves or NO ONE gets anything.

Ah, looks like another Fringe Custom Moves Zealot in the midst.

Look, I believe it is very disrespectful to attempt to hold the Mii players ransom as a bargaining chip in order to push for your own selfish desires to get Custom Fighters: On as a standardized 1v1 setting for the headlining event at big name tournaments like Evo.
Not only is this very disrespectful to the Smash Community but it is also a very weak tactic that will alienate the Mii players and divide the Custom Movement into a schism of Pro-Customs and Fringe Zealots. This is a veritable sinking ship which ends up shooting the movement in the foot and I do not support nor advocate to support.

A stronger movement would accept what the Mii players hold as self-evident truths, support them in their movement, and then an amicable reciprocation of support would be extended, thus strengthening your goal of Custom Moves.

It's your choice, bro.

 

[warriorman222]

Miis are customizable characters created from the custom menu(outside the fighting game menu). Also I don't see any major accepting miis outside 1111 :D

You don't see that because almost every TO follows Apex like sheep. If Apex hadn't backed out of their 2222 and 3333 rule, we'd have some starting ground. I'm not sure it's a good thing that they backed out, and that this is happeneing: IF all the majors accept and enjoy no customs in any way, we'll have nothing to show to them. Especially because by doing this, Apex is making the biggest show of "guilty until innocent" ever. That's jsut gonna make getting any customs very hard. And Mega Man is on the better side of customs, he skyrockets in viability, since every custom is usable in different MUs and the enemy now have more projectiles to get used to(also nobody'll know how to use Hyper Bomb properly against you, even if they catch it).

 

[mega4000]

Did I say anything about "major events"?
No, I said this is the Competitive Discussion boards. Discussions about competition; this is not the "we should do exactly what TO's of cherry picked events are doing" boards.
These discussions have been referred to by those TO's which you may be referring to.

Based on that post, you might be new to this, so I'd suggest reading Playing to Win as a starter (not saying it's the end-all be-all to the discussion, but suggesting it as a starting point). Pay careful consideration to the What Should Be Banned section.


Nice try, but nobody said I was.

The only thing I stand to try to represent is reason, logic, and truthful argument. That kind of grounding to stand on is much more powerful than egotistical notions which may be the groundless assertion you are pushing, but if that is the case then I will just have to strongly disagree with such notions.


Ah, looks like another Fringe Custom Moves Zealot in the midst.

Look, I believe it is very disrespectful to attempt to hold the Mii players ransom as a bargaining chip in order to push for your own selfish desires to get Custom Fighters: On as a standardized 1v1 setting for the headlining event at big name tournaments like Evo.
Not only is this very disrespectful to the Smash Community but it is also a very weak tactic that will alienate the Mii players and divide the Custom Movement into a schism of Pro-Customs and Fringe Zealots. This is a veritable sinking ship which ends up shooting the movement in the foot and I do not support nor advocate to support.

A stronger movement would accept what the Mii players hold as self-evident truths, support them in their movement, and then an amicable reciprocation of support would be extended, thus strengthening your goal of Custom Moves.

It's your choice, bro.

by the playing to win logic, nobody should bother using anything outside Diddy Kong. ¿Why aren't you playing Diddy Kong if you are playing just to win?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Hell Smogon did some crazy bans for the meta they wanted to create but all of that came with trial.

As someone who has been heavily involved in the competitive Pokemon scene, including on Smogon, for years, I can tell you that Gen VI Smogon OU is probably the worst OU there has been out of every generation. The reason? They're too banhappy. Almost everything they suspect test gets banned. Sure, there are some legitimately broken things, like Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Gengar, but when they start banning stuff like Aegislash and Swagger, it's clear that there is a problem with the banning process. And what is the result of all these bans? Landorus-T is way overcentralizing. The metagame is completely based on stall, and it's boring.

Now how does this apply to Smash Bros? Well, in a game with a hell of a lot fewer characters than Pokemon, going crazy with bans will impede progress in the metagame. More variety is always a good thing, and we don't want to eliminate that.

In addition, when you start banning stuff for literally no reason, it makes a mockery of your community. Smogon is the laughingstock of the competitive Pokemon scene for all of their ridiculous bans. Banning Miis would put our community to shame.

 

[Jigglymaster]

online tourny...

...you've actually got to be kidding me. First off, its against ZeRo, do you know who that is? Second, does it matter? You know what, whatever, KTAR XIII is coming and you'll see more Helicopter Kick there because they're allowing it.

Miis are customizable characters created from the custom menu(outside the fighting game menu). Also I don't see any major accepting miis outside 1111 :D

http://smashboards.com/threads/mar-...ament-new-event-structure-somerset-nj.390349/

 

[popsofctown]

I wouldn't have made this thread if I knew there were actually some people maining Mii.

I don't know why this isn't back on the fifth page yet.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

As someone who has been heavily involved in the competitive Pokemon scene, including on Smogon, for years, I can tell you that Gen VI Smogon OU is probably the worst OU there has been out of every generation. The reason? They're too banhappy. Almost everything they suspect test gets banned. Sure, there are some legitimately broken things, like Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Gengar, but when they start banning stuff like Aegislash and Swagger, it's clear that there is a problem with the banning process. And what is the result of all these bans? Landorus-T is way overcentralizing. The metagame is completely based on stall, and it's boring.

Now how does this apply to Smash Bros? Well, in a game with a hell of a lot fewer characters than Pokemon, going crazy with bans will impede progress in the metagame. More variety is always a good thing, and we don't want to eliminate that.

That started back with the swift swim clause, arguably well before that. The more bans you impliment the easier it is to justify because you've already done it before.

 

[warriorman222]

by the playing to win logic, nobody should bother using anything outside Diddy Kong. ¿Why aren't you playing Diddy Kong if you are playing just to win?

Because Diddy Kong is ridiculously overrated and laughably worse than the characters below him, and other characters are still usable, and capable of countering Diddy. It's just that every character assumed to be top for any amount of time will end up top if Zero gets to them fast enough, and the lack of patches is encouraging that. This is just a Diddy phase, eventually we'll find out who is really good, not who makes the world cry over one gimmick the fastest.

I wouldn't have made this thread if I knew there were actually some people maining Mii.

I don't know why this isn't back on the fifth page yet.

Because people like to argue, and I'm no exception. Simple as that

 

[TheHypnotoad]

That started back with the swift swim clause, arguably well before that. The more bans you impliment the easier it is to justify because you've already done it before.

Nah, it started back in Gen IV with the Garchomp ban. That was the first instance of banning a non-legendary (outside the Wobbufett ban in Gen III, which actually had a legitimate reason). It was the beginning of the end.

 

[warriorman222]

wv

Nah, it started back in Gen IV with the Garchomp ban. That was the first instance of banning a non-legendary (outside the Wobbufett ban in Gen III, which actually had a legitimate reason). It was the beginning of the end.

Like holy s***, they banned Aegislash because it countered mountains of anti-stall, so they could ban those and turn OU into a stallfest. AKA they something just to ban more things. Their elitist olgicharchy legistationis the worst thing ever, especially when you don't need to be elite to decide the fate of a Pokemon.

If we put that into Smash, the meta would Selfsestruct first turn. Pls no.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I actually main Mii fighter from time to time actually.

Like, legit might be my third most used character in Smash 4.

 

[Raijinken]

Much of this strikes me as leaning towards "guilty until proven innocent", which I don't think is the appropriate attitude for bans. For instance,

Miis seem to have possibly received less debugging time and code proofreads than other characters which increases the likelihood of powerful ATs that centralize the game being discovered.

We literally have no access to debug and balancing time or attention given to characters, and with how emergent gameplay impacts balance in Smash, it seems unfair to pre-emptively ban Miis because they MIGHT be discovered to be OP. That's like banning PacMan because Nandai made the game and probably overpowered him deliberately.

Almost no one has put any time into Miis because they are afraid they won't ultimately be legal

Despite this, there ARE players, at varying levels, who have put significant time into Miis (especially Brawler) because they offer something unique. If few have made mains of them, I know several who make secondaries of them.

5. Banning Mario makes the game less accessible to new players who started out playing at home and had never heard of the scene, and were maining Mario before.
The illegality of Miis in for glory reduces their use considerably even outside tournament play

This disregards any sort of offline but semicompetitive play with friends, see previous point.

It's really my realization that the stakes are so low that makes my heart harden towards Miis, rather than that they are caustic or really causing so much problems that they need to be banned. So little is lost, especially once everyone is on board with custom specials and we have so much variety available in the game.

The size of the loss is irrelevant, we're still talking about banning a character here. If I were to suggest banning Olimar because not one person I know IRL plays him, I'd be run off the boards and banned for flaming. Miis may have less franchise dedication (as user avatars), but they're still unique characters in Smash.

1. Tournaments run faster due to players not needing to upload specifically sized Miis from DS. With the custom special projecting developing, it's clear that most characters get their needs covered with extra slots to spare, but it's almost impossible to anticipate Mii fighter needs. There's something like 40+ viable special combinations, at least for Gunner, and any change in sizing preference means that DS upload will be necessary to get which of the 40 combinations someone wants. Unlike Palutena, you can't just go fwip fwip fwip and put it up.

They are exactly like Palutena, in that if you disallow weight/height changes, you're still looking at several combinations per character, theoretically all of which could be used.

2. Controversy, discomfort, and enforcement issues stemming from parameter tweaks are avoided. There's all sorts of things to talk about there, it'd probably be worth a whole post on its own to discuss the concept of a character that can slightly change weight and height.

This is a logistics issue, and unless a decisive preference can be reached, I think giving players either one choice (default) or three choices (biggest, smallest, and default) for each is the best way to solve it.

3. We avoid the risk of players getting attached to Mii characters, and then a gamebreaking bug destroying the character because Miis got less time in the debug room and code checks than other characters. This is kind of a big one. Piston Punch, and the lack of patches for Piston Punch, suggests that maybe Miis get a little less attention (while the Dragon Rush nerf affirms our faith in Nintendo's watchfulness over custom moves). The totally dissatisfying feel to Mii swordsman's kit suggests the same thing to me, it might be the character that feels the most horrible to me, even with Wii Fit trainer I get why someone could be into that and what that is doing for somebody. It's an undesirable powder keg to have players getting into Miis, and then have something bad come along. It may be unclear whether the glitch makes them worth banning, and it could be a catch 22 whether to harm the Mii players by turning back at a later point. As an example of how it can suck to have a glitch discovered late in game lifespan, think about IDC: we had to make a poorly enforceable ban just to keep Meta Knight legal. And then people had confirmed instances of it being used illegally in tournament play and getting away with it, damaging the integrity of the game. If we opened the the box and knew about IDC day one, it'd be a lot easier to consider just banning the character and still having 95% of the cast and not having to deal with an almost unenforceable rule.

This is very direct paranoia over possibility. Hey, someone may discover Wario has an OHKO when wearing the cotton candy colors. We should ban him so we don't risk people discovering something like that. Again, this can't be considered valid reasoning behind a ban.

It goes the other way too, it's quite possible that the Miis lack of TLC could result in an infinite being discovered that works on Miis and not other characters, and then all the Mii players are screwed because they have to quit the character because it's getting wrecked. Obviously there would be no reason to dish out a ban for that, but it would just suck for the community as a whole for a bunch of people to have to switch mains.

Precisely every Robin main's feelings about being the first discovered victim of an infinite in this game. Not grounds for a ban in any past game or now (if anything, ban the infinite, crazy thought apparently).

4. We make the game a little more inviting for For Glory players, since Miis are the only characters whose normals can't be practiced against in For Glory. Three dimes and a nickel of worth in that.

Might as well ban all custom moves and all stages besides Final Destination. As has been covered numerous places, For Glory is not comparable to in-person tournament play.

5. It becomes a lot easier to reach solidarity and accelerate towards strong standardization in the game if Miis or resized Miis are banned. It's another big thing that's big for the health of the game. Sometimes a quick decision is better than the right one, and consistent experiences between locals, regionals, and nationals can be good for the smash community as a whole. It seems pretty hard to convince everyone quickly that Miis of all kinds should be legal. Piston Punch is a bs reason, but right or wrong, it's something that's hampering progress towards standardization either way. And there's so many other initiatives to explore and expand and improve in rulesets. I feel like I would rather spend time pushing for full list stage striking than defending my right to not play bad marth, not play bad megaman, and decide whether brawler is a good version of mario or mario is a good version of brawler

There are a lot of oddities on regular characters ignored and given a pass because they're on normal characters. Oddities such as Piston Punch are a) susceptible to patching, and b) still not worse than half of Sheik's kit.
The quick decision never outweighs the right decision unless it's vital that the decision be made immediately. That isn't the case here. We aren't currently fracturing the playerbase by allowing Miis, and again, jumping the gun is a great way to start irreversible forces for conformity and status quo.

I think, basically, that we should be light-handed in issuing the banhammer, or be equally heavy-handed.

 

[T0MMY]

by the playing to win logic, nobody should bother using anything outside Diddy Kong. ¿Why aren't you playing Diddy Kong if you are playing just to win?

Because:
1) Diddy may not actually be the best character
2) Diddy could be the best but could have a hard matchup given the future meta game
3) Diddy is not suited for personal reasons - other characters may work better for some players' inherent strengths

There are plenty of other reasons such as losing profits of some kind if a competitor is known for playing a certain character (may impact stream subs and other reasons) and switches to Diddy Kong. The reasons for it not being 100% true in all cases is not important, what is verifiable is the fact that this does exist in reality, therefore there are real causes that bring this about - not knowing why it happens is not a reason to dismiss that it does happen and is certainly no reason to throw the foundations of Competitive Theory out the window.

 

[Judo777]

Ummmm....... every tournament I have been to, everyone plays helicopter kick......because its way better than piston punch lol

Killing at 15% off a throw unreliably (or even if it is reliably) at the cost of a bad recovery, is not better than killing at off a throw at 30% more reliably with a much better recovery.

Lol at randoms calling out dapuffster.