Rolling in Smash 4

[Jakatsu]

This may have been discussed in depth already, but I don't see a lot of discussion on rolling and if it seems changed in this installment. One thing I see time and time again in the (staged) trailers is characters rolling behind each other and being able to act so quickly out of the roll that they end up countering. Little Mac actually uses this technique as an approach in his reveal trailer. This is something that I've never done much of in my play, and trying to recreate this effect in past installments doesn't seem as viable.

Mac does this twice at 1:17.

Here Mii Gunner does the same thing at 0:56, she is able to attack before Samus ends her attack animation.

Are rolls faster in Smash 4 to allow for this kind of counter game? If so do you see rolling taking on a more offensive meta this time around? It is something that has been featured heavily in official footage, but not something I've seen used in demo gameplay as much.

What are your thoughts? Again, if this has been discussed before I apologize for starting a useless thread.

 

[Bladeviper]

I think rolls will depend on the character as in the reveal for Robin it seems like his roll was kinda slow, but maybe we can cancel part of the animation with a attack or something.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

This was something already in brawl.

and can be handled with something that can cancel/auto-cancel like an aerial or even use the new AT that Skull_Kid discovered Turnaround Cancel.

 

[Lozjam]

So in both Melee and Brawl, rolling was a poor option in competitive play. It can leave you right open, and even though it gives you invincibility frames, it dwarves in comparison with options such as a spot dodge, a short hop aerial attack and a shield grab. Is it my imagination, or is rolling more useful in Smash 4? For characters like Link it seems to give him fantastic mobility and it seems you can attack a lot faster out of roll. I did not get the chance to play Smash 4, but what do you guys think? Will rolling potentially be more useful for Smash 4's competitive scene?

 

[TheGoldMan]

I'm pretty sure it'll stay nearly the same

 

[Senario]

So in both Melee and Brawl, rolling was a poor option in competitive play. It can leave you right open, and even though it gives you invincibility frames, it dwarves in comparison with options such as a spot dodge, a short hop aerial attack and a shield grab. Is it my imagination, or is rolling more useful in Smash 4? For characters like Link it seems to give him fantastic mobility and it seems you can attack a lot faster out of roll. I did not get the chance to play Smash 4, but what do you guys think? Will rolling potentially be more useful for Smash 4's competitive scene?

Little faster but still easily chase - able I can't imagine any poplar characters who couldn't simply run up and grab as almost all the fast chars are popular.

Unless they made it so rolls made you fall off ledges then I can't see why you would need to roll all that much. And that is only because if rolls made you fall off it could let you grab the ledge or fall off a platform for an air move if shield dropping didn't work.

 

[Lozjam]

Little faster but still easily chase - able I can't imagine any poplar characters who couldn't simply run up and grab as almost all the fast chars are popular.

Unless they made it so rolls made you fall off ledges then I can't see why you would need to roll all that much. And that is only because if rolls made you fall off it could let you grab the ledge or fall off a platform for an air move if shield dropping didn't work.

Normally I would not question it, but of you look in this video, it actually gives Link quite a bit of mobility

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Rolling has definitely gotten buffed probably to serve as an approach option.

 

[Beats]

Rolls are always punishable if used predictably. That much will never change. If rolls are faster in smash 4 that just means it'll be harder to punish on reactions. I don't see it being useful for mobility though, because you can't really space well with it, it would still be laggier to use than just dashing, and using it more only increases your chance of being punished. In short, I think rolls will just function the same way as they always have.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm pretty sure it'll stay nearly the same

I'm not too sure about that.

Watch Fox roll and roll immediately after. And in another video at 8:04...

Watch Toon Link continuously roll across the stage.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I don't know, seems pretty useful when theres no wavedashin

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Rolls are always punishable if used predictably. That much will never change. If rolls are faster in smash 4 that just means it'll be harder to punish on reactions. I don't see it being useful for mobility though, because you can't really space well with it, it would still be laggier to use than just dashing, and using it more only increases your chance of being punished. In short, I think rolls will just function the same way as they always have.

If you practice spacing with it then it could be a spacing option. Sure it's slower than dashing but it's invincible. Considering in like ten trailers it's shown be used for spacing, it seems like it's being designed for it.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Better Roll?

YES PLEASE!

 

[Beats]

I don't know, seems pretty useful when theres no wavedashin

Wavedashing is useful for many reasons which rolling can't be used for. Using it with jump cancel-able things like shield or shines, increased mobility on and off platforms and ledges, having variable distances depending on the angle you airdodge, etc. Rolls don't have any added utility without wavedashes, they're always just rolls.

If you practice spacing with it then it could be a spacing option. Sure it's slower than dashing but it's invincible. Considering in like ten trailers it's shown be used for spacing, it seems like it's being designed for it.

It's not about practice, it's about being easy to punish. A roll is always a set distance over a set amount of time. It takes way too much commitment simply to space with. It pretty much only gets you from point A to point B, and that's not really what spacing is about. Things like dashing allow you to act more appropriately to your opponent's spacing and zoning with larger windows of opportunity.

I think there's some discrepancy between our definitions of spacing. I can't really think of any moment in a video where it was used to do so, or at least where there wasn't a better option for it. Also, how a situation plays out in a trailer, and how it might play out once the metagame starts forming might be very different.

 

[Lozjam]

Wavedashing is useful for many reasons which rolling can't be used for. Using it with jump cancel-able things like shield or shines, increased mobility on and off platforms and ledges, having variable distances depending on the angle you airdodge, etc. Rolls don't have any added utility without wavedashes, they're always just rolls.



It's not about practice, it's about being easy to punish. A roll is always a set distance over a set amount of time. It takes way too much commitment simply to space with. It pretty much only gets you from point A to point B, and that's not really what spacing is about. Things like dashing allow you to act more appropriately to your opponent's spacing and zoning with larger windows of opportunity.

I think there's some discrepancy between our definitions of spacing. I can't really think of any moment in a video where it was used to do so, or at least where there wasn't a better option for it. Also, how a situation plays out in a trailer, and how it might play out once the metagame starts forming might be very different.

Yet it seems like you can attack and move out of roll a lot faster. Which, if this is the case, you can avoid being punished with a quick jab, or a short hop and a quick aerial.

 

[Beats]

Ending lag of a roll isn't the only thing to consider though. Once the opponent sees you using it and reacts to it, they may very well have enough time to punish you the moment you finish rolling. Also as I explained before, it requires a more commitment than other spacing options. So if your opponent makes a read, it's much easier to have a better punish for it. I just see the risk as being too high.

 

[Lozjam]

Ending lag of a roll isn't the only thing to consider though. Once the opponent sees you using it and reacts to it, they may very well have enough time to punish you the moment you finish rolling. Also as I explained before, it requires a more commitment than other spacing options. So if your opponent makes a read, it's much easier to have a better punish for it. I just see the risk as being too high.

Yet that could leave for some really nice baits. For example roll backwards as Link, opponent tries to attack, but give him a crippling and powerful blow with link's dash attack. The usefulness of a roll is that you can stay in the same direction. That is useful for someone like Link where a well times arrow can cause an opening, dashing away would take a lot more time if you plan to use said arrow. The only thing else Link can do is short hop than use the arrow, while it is useful for QuickDraw in brawl, it can leave Link wide open for a potential gimp. Yes I admitted that rolls are useless in every smash game, but I think there is definitely potential for rolls.

 

[Beats]

Yet that could leave for some really nice baits. For example roll backwards as Link, opponent tries to attack, but give him a crippling and powerful blow with link's dash attack. The usefulness of a roll is that you can stay in the same direction. That is useful for someone like Link where a well times arrow can cause an opening, dashing away would take a lot more time if you plan to use said arrow. The only thing else Link can do is short hop than use the arrow, while it is useful for QuickDraw in brawl, it can leave Link wide open for a potential gimp. Yes I admitted that rolls are useless in every smash game, but I think there is definitely potential for rolls.

The situation you described would be better to do with a dash dance. I'm aware that dash dancing wasn't properly in the demo, but I don't find it unlikely that that will change. Or even without it, I understand that characters can pivot and throw out a move. I think it has been called turnaround cancel or something?

 

[Lozjam]

The situation you described would be better to do with a dash dance. I'm aware that dash dancing wasn't properly in the demo, but I don't find it unlikely that that will change. Or even without it, I understand that characters can pivot and throw out a move. I think it has been called turnaround cancel or something?

Not for a neutral special. And Link is terrible at dashing, he is very slow. From what we have seen the same is still true. Not as slow as say Bowser, but when it comes to movement, Link has never won any awards(except in P:M) dash dancing is not a good option in the situation I described, because if the opponent is close by, they can very well use one of their own projectiles. Also there is the fact, since Links dash attack is one of his best kill moves in smash 4, he needs space to execute it. A quick roll followed by a dash attack would be a viable strategy if you are smart and can perform it well. Also pivots and the like, virtually useless with Link. He doesn't really obtain anything from it. Grabs, not really, I do not believe he gets extra range with pivot grabs, specials, only boomerang is particularly useful. You are practically assuming every character is fox, he probably doesn't need to roll because he doesn't need proper spacing like characters like Link or Rosalina or Megaman. Fox has so many approach options, but tactical characters... Don't. Plus you are assuming smash 4 will have those same tactics. What if dash dancing, or pivots aren't available to every character or even at all? Smash 4 is running on a new engine and things like that could be different. Just look at the differences in DI

 

[Beats]

I think at this point there's no real way to resolve these hypothetical situations. We'll have to wait and see once the game is released. Not much more I can say at this point.

 

[greenluigiman2]

Little Mac's roll is pretty much a special move. It's fast, covers a lot of distance, and doesn't have much if any ending lag. It'll definitely be a good option for him.

5:30

 

[Jakatsu]

Hey, I made this thread yesterday, but this one seems to be getting off the ground! Here's what I noticed:

This may have been discussed in depth already, but I don't see a lot of discussion on rolling and if it seems changed in this installment. One thing I see time and time again in the (staged) trailers is characters rolling behind each other and being able to act so quickly out of the roll that they end up countering. Little Mac actually uses this technique as an approach in his reveal trailer. This is something that I've never done much of in my play, and trying to recreate this effect in past installments doesn't seem as viable.

Mac does this twice at 1:17.

Here Mii Gunner does the same thing at 0:56, she is able to attack before Samus ends her attack animation.

Are rolls faster in Smash 4 to allow for this kind of counter game? If so do you see rolling taking on a more offensive meta this time around? It is something that has been featured heavily in official footage, but not something I've seen used in demo gameplay as much.

What are your thoughts? Again, if this has been discussed before I apologize for starting a useless thread.

Rolling, for me, has always been used to dodge attacks. The ending lag and slowness of the roll never allowed it to be used as an approach and usually zipping behind an attack for a counter wasn't very viable, but it seems that Smash 4 has made rolling much more useful. Distance seems longer, the animations are faster, and the end lag is clipped allowing for quick action out of the roll. But only time will tell if this is actually the case.

 

[derbtrist]

some characters have faster rolls, im not sure if any of them have faster rolls than some did in brawl

 

[Lozjam]

There is another thread for it, but I see no reason to lock one of them.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-usefulness-of-the-roll.361571/
Could a moderator such as @ Hong or @Swampasaur or @--- please merge the two threads? A million thanks in advance.

 

[Hong]

Indeed. The threads are less than half a day apart from each other, so they have been merged. Thanks.

 

[Lozjam]

Indeed. The threads are less than half a day apart from each other, so they have been merged. Thanks.

Thank you Hong

 

[Crome]

I'm not too sure about that.

Watch Fox roll and roll immediately after. And in another video at 8:04...

Watch Toon Link continuously roll across the stage.

I don't know why that 2nd video isn't being discussed more. You can see toon link clearly rolling with out stopping. I f this is a feature, then oh man.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Roll spam will still be punishable. However, making rolls a viable mixup option for more characters could help make the game more offensively oriented. There were a couple of characters that could use rolls effectively in Brawl, such as Lucario, but for most characters they were usually outclassed by other options. Giving more characters good rolls can increase their approach options and let them be less predictable.