Recovery Rankings

[One Tilt]

I've seen threads comparing different characters' weights and movement speeds, and I've always found them to be fantastically enlightening. I quite enjoy data and comparisons as a whole, so I started to wonder if less empirically and measured qualities of a character might be rankable as well. It is, of course, a bit of a fine line between approximation and arbitration, but iteration solves all! Basically, between my initial (and continued) testing and everyone's input and discussion, the goal here is to rate each character's relative ability to recovery. It might be useful, it might be pointless, but, either way, I feel like this makes for an interesting topic, if nothing else, and I'm sure that there's plenty we can learn from this regardless. ^^

In any case, we're going to be considering any and all factors that go into a character's recovery (that is, their ability to return to the stage safely after being knocked off, not just their up B). The idea is to make a ranking system for how likely a character is to return to the stage, which is a sum of the tools they have to work with. Some things to consider include:

• Vertical, Horizontal, and Diagonal Distances
• Air Speed (both of recovery moves and in general)
• Hitboxes (strength, size, power, et cetera)
• Armor/Super Armor/Invulnerability/Intangibility
• Vulnerability to gimps/spikes (stagespikes or otherwise)
• Flexibility/Predictability/Options (mixups/mindgames and the like)
• Reliability (Not to be confused with ease-of-use)
• Defensive Aerials, Actions Out of Up B, Ledge Sweetspots, and more!

LATEST VERSION (5.1)

Spoiler

SS

S

A
(Jump)
B
(*112)
C
(**22)
D
(**3*)
E
(*11*)(*11*/*22*)
F
(**3*)
FF


Changelog:
Metaknight, past Villager in SS (Trying to weigh in MK's flexibility a bit more)
Jigglypuff, to S, from A (Another case of my simply not actually seeing Jiggly much fail to recover)
Zelda, tentatively remaining at S (Extremely linear recovery and ledge trump tricks have me wondering at her placement a bit more, but it's hard to weigh predictability and the adoption of particular tricks in the metagame against what's otherwise a safe, far-reaching recovery...)
Olimar, to A, from S (Recovery feels comparable (if notably superior) to Pit-- no hitbox, but quick and far)
Dedede, down within A (Giant hurtbox, and I'm sure he has vulnerabilities as a result... but I still see D3 gimped far less than Kirby, which has me skeptical of lowering D3 to B)
Sonic, down within B (Limited horizontal recovery that's reliant on homing attack)
Lucas, to B, from C (Having seen his recovery, he's practically the Fox to Ness's Falco...
WFT, to B, from C (Looking through C, the very similar options at face value to Link and co. are trumped by WFT's controllalble up B, superior distance, and stalling-- whilst retaining hitboxes and projectile ledge coverage)
Ryu, to B, from D (Tatsumaki Senpuyaku... if I'm spelling it right, is essentially a safer Luigi missle (in that you use it prior to double jumping to preserve it), while Shoryuken is your standard linear recovery upwards. Placed in low B, as I expect Hadouken covered ledges and wall jumps would put him just above average.
ROB, up within C (Nearer to Ike, as a foil of sorts to him, given that ROB lacks innate hitboxes, but has range and flexible angles, while Ike has super armor and strict angles)
Falco, down within C (Continuing to adjust-- nearer to BowJow, as they seem a bit comparable)
Ness, to C, from D (Ness's double jump was being weighed a bit too lightly, as was his small hurtbox)
Diddy Kong, to C, from E (The 'worst of average' seems like a solid explanation for Diddy Kong's recovery-- while it can fail spectacularly in traditional 'up B to ledge' safety, horizontal mixups and air speed atop good range can make a world of difference)
Palutena, to D, from C (Call it bias, but I've never seen Palutena's recovery as good. With Ganondorf's range and strict, predictable angles and a total lack of hitboxes, I just can't see any amount of safety being enough-- just as DHD's safety doesn't make up for his poor recovery. Placed by other 'safe, but iffy range' sorts like DK, for now.)
Charizard, to D, from C (As with Palutena, this is more a matter of trying to gauge experiences rather than any drastically new information, but Charizard's recovery feels like a chore in ways that those at C... generally don't. Placed near similarly 'safe, but large hurtboxes' cases like DK.)
Roy, to D, from E (Extensive testing and a new familiarity has shown Blazer to be an Dolphin slash that trades speed for some super armor and angling. The fact that Roy also lacks Dancing Blade stalling and the like makes a placement just below Marth/Mario sorts feel about right.)
Robin, to E, from D (Much as I want Robin's recovery to be good, much as I cling it its excellent range, terrible airspeed and very limited hitboxes give the feeling of a Falcon that trades speedy recovery and a grapple hitbox for projectile ledge coverage.)

Version 5.0 [Ryu/Roy/Lucas DLC]

Spoiler

SS

S

A
(Jump)
B
(*112)
C
(**22)
D
(**3*)
E
(*11*)(*11*/*22*)
F
(**3*)
FF


Changelog:
DLC characters added, tiers consolidated, and quite a bit more going on, on top of the usual movement... most of the changes are a result of experiences rather than hard data (as I don't see MK or Pac Man ever really fail to recover, yet ZSS or Zelda have some limitations, et cetera). While (Jump) Shulk will remain, the rest of the monado form details are proving to be less than helpful to individually list. Either way, instead of going into all the details here, I'll just explain the new tiers a bit...
SS is for the recoveries that have, for all intents and purposes, no real weaknesses. I can't see any of these five characters ever failing to recover, barring extreme user error, as they all have more than enough tools at their disposal.
S is for recoveries that are extremely good... but that aren't quite infallible. ZSS lacks some vertical range, Lucario can stage bounce, Olimar lack hitboxes and can't mixup on walled stages, G&W and Zelda are a bit predictable, Zelda in particular is vulnerable prior to up B, and Pac Man doesn't quite recover quick enough at times for me to edge much higher yet... but I'm rambling now, and this is looking more and more like the post I was going to make. ._.
A is for recoveries that have clear weaknesses, like a lack of hitboxes or a reliance on a special that's not always available, or poor airspeed, or footstool vulnerability... but, in practice, these things end up rarely being enough to keep them from actually recovering.
B is a bit more of a gray area, mostly defined by the fact that those within it haven't quite hit A tier, yet they still seem to be a bit above the crowded pack in C tier...
C is... rather a mess, at present. Yet, C is meant to mean average, and so characters with middling recovery have a place here. At present, characters who I'm unsure of I've placed nearer to C, so expect the ranks here to thin a bit as the new format is clarified a bit further down the line.
D is forrecoveries that feel notably more limited than the majority of the cast's, yet, not enough so to feel like a serious liability.
E is for particularly risky recoveries that are very easy to exploit.
F is for such drastically limited recoveries that they should only rarely be expected to be of any help.

Older Versions

Spoiler

Version 4.0

Spoiler

Best
(Jump)
S+

S

S-
(Sonic/Jigglypuff/Speed)
A+
(Jump)
A
(*112)
A-

B+
(**22)
B

B-

C+
(Speed)(**1*/**3*)
C
(**2*)(**3*)
C-
(*11*)(*11*/*22*)
D+
(**3*)
D
(Defense)
D-
(Defense)

Changelog:
Olimar; to S, from A+ (Even better than Dedede at the 'get hit, recover anyway' game ad infinitum.)
Jigglypuff; to S-, from S (Slight change, but Jiggly is much more vulnerable to footstools/spikes than MK.)
Mewtwo strikes back! Mewtwo placed in A+ (Extremely safe/quick up B, side B/walljump mixups, and tricky air manuvers in general along with great range... but the lag at the start of second jump creates a small window of vulnerability, and Teleport's limited range is a letdown if you lack that second jump.
Peach; to high A, from mid A (Horizontal flexibility edges out Charizard's super armor and Fox's vertical range.)
ROB; to B, from C+ (Tapped up B offers extreme range, but safety needs more testing before considering further promotion.)
Shulk (Speed); to top C+, from bottom B- (Not so different from base Shulk that two tiers feels justified.)
Mii Gunner (**2); to C, from C+ (Slightly worse than other gunner recoveries, along with sharing a similar, if weaker, up B to Mario.)
Cpt. Falcon; to C-, from D+ (Comperable to Diddy, with better speed and safety, albeit less range and worse mixups.)
Dr. Mario; to bottom D+, from top D (tornado, walljumps, etc. make for far more flexibility than Ganondorf.)

Version 3.4

Spoiler

Best
(Jump)
S+

S

S-
(Sonic/Jigglypuff/Speed)
A+
(Jump)
A
(*112)
A-

B+
(**22)
B

B-
(Speed)
C+

C
(**3*)
C-
(*11*)(*11*/*22*)
D+
(**3*)
D
(Defense)
D-
(Defense)

Changelog:
Shulk (Speed); to B-, from B (Lacks Link level mixups, and feels to perhaps be more equivalent to WFT.)
Bowser Jr.; to B+, from C (Gains up B back when hit, horizontal recovery, acting out of up B... felt nearer to MM.)
Bowser; to B-, from C- (Mostly rising to keep pace with DK, but with a bit more balanced distances and such.)
DK; to B-, from D (Horizontal range, safety, b-reversing, stalling mixups, good hitboxes, and even armor frames.)
ROB; to C+, from B- (Minor change, but better illustrates the gap between ROB and WFT's safety and such.)
Mii Gunner; to low C+, from high C+ (Factoring in Marthina airspeed, counter, neutral B, and disjoint.)
Shulk; to C, from B- (I'd been mixing up air speeds with Speed form a bit-- feeling closer to Robin.)
Robin; to C, from C+ (Lack of an upwards hitbox and lesser range than Marthina-- more of a gap needed between.)
Mario; to C, from C- (That instant, ungimpable up B, which is one of the reasons Luigi and now Doc rose.)
Diddy; to C-, from C (Worse safety than DHD without much more range-- though still above thanks to side B).
Mii Swordfighter; 1/2, combined behind Brawler 1 (Felt loosely equivalent as slightly beneath Brawler 1.)
Dr. Mario; to D, from D- (Feels much more equivalent to Ganon when considering airspeed, safety, horizontal, etc..)
'Worst' Tier Removed (Doc rose, but Mac does not feel significantly worse than Defense Shulk.)

Version 3.3

Spoiler

Best
(Jump)
S+

S

S-
(Sonic/Jigglypuff/Speed)
A+
(Jump)
A
(*112)
A-

B+
(**22)
B
(Speed)
B-

C+

C
(**3*)
C-
(*11*)(*11*)
D+
(*22*)(**3*)
D
(Defense)
D-
(Defense)
Worst


Changelog:
S to S+ (S+ should be for those with 'ideal' recoveries.)
S- to S
A+ to S-
A to A+
A- to A
Lucario; to S, from S+ (Recovery not quite ideal, given its endlag, variable range, and potential to SD on corners.)
Game & Watch > Metaknight (Horizontal range plus acting out of up B.)
Peach; to A, from A- (Fox's horizontal range with safety to compensate for her lesser vertical range.)
Brawler (*112); to A, from A- (Similar to Peach, albeit with mixups moreso than direct safety.)
Palutena; to A-, from A (Very limited in both range and options.)
Rosalina; to A-, from B+ (Good distance/speed doesn't make up for gimpability and inconsistency.)
Falco; to A-, from B (Extreme horizontal recover identical to Fox's, with the only difference being some vertical.)
Luigi; to A-, from B- (Can gain altitude from a jumpless down B; similar to Falco-- gimpable, but horizontal range.)
Megaman; to B+, from A (Very much lacks for horizontal options, feeling nearer to Link and co..)
Brawler (**22); to B+, from B (Some of the game's best horizontal recovery... just lacking some vertical.)
Shulk (Speed); to B, from B- (Air speed buff grants some flexibility to feel more on par with the Links.)
Shulk; to B-, from C+ (Feels closer to WFT than Marth.)
ROB; to B-, from C+ (See Shulk.)
Robin; to C+, from C (Feels significantly better than those of C; Arcfire/Fair/Nair to stage style options.)

Version 3.2

Spoiler

Best
(Jump)
S+

S

S-

A+
(Sonic/Jigglypuff/Speed)
A
(Jump)
A-

B+
(*112)
B
(**22)
B-
(Speed)
C+

C
(**3*)
C-
(*11*)(*11*)
D+
(*22*)(**3*)
D
(Defense)
D-
(Defense)
Worst


Changelog:
Tier definitions Removed (Their purpose was to add clarity, but they only proved to needlessly complicate things.)
New Tier: 'Worst'
Game & Watch; to S-, from A+ (Safer than Wario with similar-or-better range.)
Wario; to A+, from S- (Bike dependancy creates potential vunlerability-- not quite fit for S tiers.)
Dark Pit > Pit (Stronger side B? Claiming a clone to be better or worse is difficult when it's not DMMD...)
Kirby (Jigglypuff) and Kirby (Speed), added to Kirby (Sonic)'s placement.
Shulk (Speed); to above Ness, in B- (Difference in air speed has become a bit more noticeable in real-game situations.)
Mii Gunner; Customs Ignored (All their recoveries feel to have relatively equivalent pros and cons.)
Mii Gunner; to C+, from C (Far better air options than Swordfighter all-around, along with an infinitely better air speed.)
Mii Swordfighter (**3*); to C, from C+ (Abysmal air speed compared to Gunner, among others, with limited coverage).
Lucina > Marth (No sourspot on up B? Claiming a clone to be better or worse is difficult when it's not DMMD...)
Mii Swordfigher (*13*); Removed (Not significantly improved by mixup options, consolidated into '**3*'.)
Bowser Jr.; to C, from C- (Felt very similar to Diddy, just with a slightly better balance between safety and range.)
Kirby (Defense); Added to D (Upon testing, had felt as poor as Defense Shulk used to feel...)
Shulk (Defense); to D-, from D (Horizontal recovery is a joke compared even to Dr. Mario. Barely above LM.)
Little Mac; to Worst, from D- (Doc has far superior recovery, yet, he lacks the tools to muscle into D.)

Version 3.1

Spoiler

Best: The game's best recovery.
S+: Perfect; failing to recover all but requires user error.
S: Flawless; failing to recover takes extremely rare and specific circumstances.
S-: Fantastic; failing to recover is a rare, albeit plausible, occurrence.
A+: Excellent; typically with only a single, minor flaw that's of occasional relevance.
A: Wonderful; with very few minor flaws, of which one tends to be relevant at any given time.
A-: Great; a single moderate flaw or more than one minor flaw typically relevant in an average situation.
B+: Good; some exceptional trait elevating an all-around solid recovery.
B: Average; an all-around solid recovery that sets a nice baseline.
B-: Nice; often, yet not always, a very consistent and well-rounded recovery.
C+: Decent; with clear pros slightly outweighing the recovery's cons.
C: Fair; with clear pros and cons of about equal measure.
C-: Okay; with clear cons somewhat outweighing the recovery's pros.
D+: Limited; recovery's minor perks held back by some major flaw, along with the usual, lesser issues.
D: Flawed; recovery is marred by a several major and minor issues, with even its perks being minor.
D-: Bad; recovery with such severely crippling issues that it's often borderline unusable.

Best
(Jump)
S+

S

S-

A+
(Sonic)
A
(Jump)
A-

B+
(*112)
B
(**22)
B-
(*13*) (Speed)
C+
(*33*)
C
(**1*/**3*)
C-
(*11*)(*11*)
D+
(*22*)(**3*)
D
(Defense)
D-
(**2*)

Changelog:
New 'best' tier added, specifically to distinguish the distance between Jump Kirby and those of S tiers.
S+ used to divide up S tier-- despite the minor gap between them, it was the only tier with more than five.
E and F tiers removed-- they were being used to illustrate gaps that did not exist.
Lucario; to S+ from S (Felt the slightest bit superior to ZSS, and thus a fitting third for the new S+ division.)
Wario; to S-, from A (Range akin to Kirby with little of Kirby's other problems? Sounds just like Jigglypuff...)
Game & Watch; to A+, from S- (Safety aside, his recovery range is a bit more limited than the similarly safe Zelda.)
Megaman < Charizard (Charizard's multiple jumps help to distinguish him a bit more, given MM's singular recovery move.)
Fox; to A-, from B+ (Extreme range with better safety than Rosalina-- they've loosely swapped a bit.)
Rosalina; to B+, from A- (Range similar to Fox, yet without hitboxes... thus, perhaps slightly worse.)
Mii Brawler (**22); to B, from B- (Diagonal recovery from a sweetspotted Feint Kick is quite impressive.)
Luigi; to B-, from C (Extreme horizontal recovery similar to Falco, albeit a bit more limited.)
Ness; to B-, from C (PK Thunder gimps can be denied with proper use of the tail's hitbox.)
Mii Swordfighter (*13*); to B- from B (spin attack feels closer to Shulk, with the mixup feeling speed-form levels of subtle)
Mii Swordfighter (*33*); to C+ from B- (spin attack feels closer to Shulk)
Mii Gunner (**1*) and (**3*); combined within C (The differences between them were shown to be fairly equivalent.)
Diddy Kong < Gunner 1/3 < Robin (Diddy's rocketbarrel pack is just phenomenally vulnerable to gimping.)
Little Mac; to D-, from E (Felt near enough to DMMD that the extra tier was superfluous.)
Mii Gunner (**2*); to D-, from F (See Little Mac.)

Version 3.0

Spoiler

S+: The top three recoveries in the game, in order.
S: Exceptional recovery; with extreme safety and range in all directions, plus myriad mixups for recovery.
S-: Exceptional recovery; with extreme safety or range in all directions, the other being only great.
A+: Great recovery; with one of range or safety being exceptional whilst the other is good.
A: Great recovery; with one of range or safety being great whilst the other is good.
A-: Great recovery; with one of range or safety being great whilst the other is average.
B+: Good recovery; where slight flaws rarely limit otherwise great recovery.
B: Good recovery; where slight flaws occasionally limit otherwise great recovery.
B-: Good recovery; where slight flaws somewhat limit otherwise great recovery.
C+: Decent recovery; where clear flaws may hinder one's recovery.
C: Decent recovery; where clear flaws often hinder one's recovery.
C-: Decent recovery; where clear flaws consistently hinder one's recovery.
D+: Usable recovery; with slightly more perks than flaws.
D: Usable recovery; with about equal parts perks and flaws.
D-: Limited recovery; nothing standing out as particularly decent.
E: Bad recovery; very limited tools making for extreme unreliability.
F: The absolute worst in the game, where recovery borders on fantasy.​

S+
(Jump)
S

S-

A+
(Sonic)
A
(Jump)
A-

B+
(*112)
B
(*13*)
B-
(**22)(*33*) (Speed)
C+
(**1*)
C
(**3*)
C-
(*11*)(*11*)
D+
(*22*)(**3*)
D
(Defense)
D-

E

F
(**2*)

Changelog:
S+ is now for the top three recoveries, in order-- not simply 'the very best, like no one ever was'.
New E and F tiers, to open up mid-range space.
Tiers + and - subtiers defined and color-coded.
Miis and copy ability Kirby slots added-- for the latter, Shulk's and Sonic's are the only entries.
Kirby (Jump); placed at S+ (Gratuitous excess in its purest form.)
Sheik; to S-, from S (S+ is no longer for the absolute best, but the top three.)
Game & Watch; to S-, from A (Up B is Pikachu tier safety, only horizontal recovery holding him back from S.)
Kirby (Sonic); placed at A+ (Adds a recovery mixup that's significantly useful.)
Shulk (Jump); to A, from A+ (Reflects his status a bit more clearly.)
Wario > Kirby in A (Wario's safety eclipses Kirby's, while his range isn't that far inferior.)
Rosalina; to A-, from B+ (Feels closer to, yet still below, Olimar-- faster, with less flexibility.)
Peach; to B+, from A- (Feels closer to, yet still above, Fox-- less gimpable.)
Brawler (*112); placed in B+ (The range of Fox with better safety and mixups.)
Ike; to B+, from B (Doesn't feel significantly worse off than Yoshi.)
Mii Swordfighter (*13*); placed in B (Similar, albeit slightly inferior, options to Link.)
B- to C+
C+ to C
C to C-
C- to D+
D+ to D
D to D-
D- to E
Mii Brawler (**22); placed in B- (Everything but vertical recovery is just outstanding.)
Wii Fit Trainer; to B-, from C+ (Felt more distinctly above ROB.)
Mii Swordfighter (*33*); placed in B- (Has Link's spin attack, but none of his mixups, and so falls a tier short.)
Shulk (Speed); to B-, from B+ (Feels significantly closer to default Shulk than expected as I tested more extensively.)
Shulk; to C+, from C (Better speed and safety than the new arrivals to C, despite minimal horizontal range.)
Marth; to C+, from C (See Shulk.)
Lucina; to C+, from C (See Shulk.)
Mii Gunner (**1*); placed in C+ (Great distance all-around, but only slightly better than Robin due to similar safety.)
Ness; to C, from C+ (PK Thunder interception gimping is being weighted a bit more heavily.)
Diddy Kong; to C, from C+ (Rocketbarrel pack's lack of safety is being weighted a bit more heavily.)
Bowser Jr.; to C- from C+ (An extreme lack of safety heavily compromises his recovery overall.)
Mii Gunner (**3*); placed in C (Much more rigid angling than **1*, along with having slightly less range.)
Mario; to C- from D+ (Felt a cut above Falcon/DHD, along with Bowser.)
Bowser; to C- from D+ (Felt a cut above Falcon/DHD, along with Mario.)
Mii Swordfighter (*11*); placed in C- (Nearly identical to Brawler's *11*.)
Mii Brawler (*11*); placed in C- (Predictability and lack of diagonal distance comperable to Bowser's lack of vertical.)
Mii Swordfighter (*22*); placed in D+ (Similar to swordfighter/brawler *11*, but the slightest bit weaker horizontally.)
Mii Brawler (**3*); placed in D+ (Similar vertically to swordfighter *22*, but without a horizontal option.)
Ganondorf; to D from D- (Has always felt pretty close to DK.)
Shulk (Defense); to D from D- (Lack of a good second jump plus a decent up B is an identical profile to Ganondorf.)
Mii Gunner (**2*); placed in F (Even with that Absorbing Vortex down B, it's worse than Little Mac.)

Version 2.8

Spoiler

S: Exceptional recovery; with extreme safety and/or range in all directions and likely myriad mixups for recovery.
A: Great recovery; where, of range and safety, one only nears average when then other nears exceptional.
B: Good recovery; where neither safety nor distance impede one another to be overly limiting.
C: Usable recovery; where neither safety nor distance can really hope to exceed average by much.
D: Bad recovery; both distance and safety manage to be so underwhelming that recovering at all is rare.​

S+

S

S-

A+
(Jump)
A

A-

B+
(Speed)
B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+
(Defense)
D

D-


Changelog:
Tier Shift; Letters moves up so S+ is the max, as this better reflects what the tiers mean. More consideration will be made in the future towards treating letters as more significant as 'overarcing' tiers-- i.e. that the +'s and -'s might have less of a gap between them and the flat letter than the difference will be between two letters... To prevent confusion, character changes will use the new letters for their 'from' bit as well (the shift is before any character changes, in a word). Honestly, the difference with this will be a minor one of clarity, though.
S rearrangements: Sheik and ZSS have slightly more options than Lucario and safety than Greninja.
Villager, from S- to S (Distance, up B reset if hit rather than the balloons, walljumping, and options.)
Jigglypuff, from A to S- (Solved footstool vulnerability with rising pounds, best horizontal distance in the game.)
Shulk (Jump), from A to A+ (Unconventionality and air speed makes it hard for foes to react for gimping.)
Game & Watch, from A+ to A (Only feels a single step above Palutena, and Sonic isn't too dissimilar.)
Pac Man, from A- to A (Side B super armor and having no idea how gimpable his up B might be in practice.)
Charizard, from B+ to A- (Feels to have nearly Palutena's level of safety, but with better range and options.)
Peach, from B+ to A- (Extreme horizontal ranges and a great disjointed up B.)
Rosalina, from A- to B+ (Comperable to Fox: range and some bit of mixup, but little safety.)
Shulk (Speed), from B to B+ (Unconventionality and air speed makes it hard for foes to react for gimping.)
Ike, from B+ to B (His super armor doesn't help his gimpable side B nor his iffy diagonal range.)
Falco, from B- to B (Same horizontal distance as Fox, and wall jumps solve some vertical issues.)
Diddy Kong, from B to B- (Feels comperable to ROB/BowJow in terms of an iffy up B.)
Wii Fit Trainer, from C+ to B- (Can reuse up B when hit out of it, and can also walljump... both unlike ROB.)
ROB > Bowser Jr. in B- (Feels slightly more defendable, since ROB can at least attack during up B.)
Ness, from C+ to B- (No more gimpable than others of B-, and wall tricks grant some options.)
Marth, from B- to C+ (Zero horizontal range; gimpable.)
Lucina, from B- to C+ (See Marth.)
DHD, from C- to C (Barely less safe than DK, but wall jump edges Kong out with that better vertical already.)
Ganondorf, from D to D+ (A slight step above DMMD, for less double jump reliance... possibly?)
Also, new tier definitions at the top-- kept in spoiler as they only apply to this most recent version, and will likely be updated from time to time.

Version 2.7

Spoiler

S

S-

A+

A

A-
(Jump)
B+

B

B-
(Speed)
C+

C

C-

D+

D
(Defense)
D-


Changelog:
Zelda, from S- to A+ (Lacks for options while recovering-- flexibility feels to be a requirement for S-.)
Palutena, from A+ to B+ (Cripplingly average range, zero flexibility, and vulnerable to ledge trump hijinks.)
Metaknight, from A to A+ (So many options, plus good airspeed-- a cut above others with multiple jumps.)
Sonic, from B+ to A- (More options and range than MM, given neutral/side B.)
Rosalina, down within B+ (Predictable, vulnerable, and no options/mixups-- still felt a bit too high.)
Fox, from B- to B (Felt a cut above Diddy, and I was biased towards Fox being too near to Falco.)
Shulk (Speed) placed in B- (Not higher within B- due to art-switching prerequisite-- a cautious placement.)
Bowser Jr., from B to C+ (Limits on Up B reuse and horizontal range feel rather like a mix of ROB and Falco.)
Wii Fit Trainer, from bottom C+ to top C (No real change, just feels similar to Shulk and co in terms of options.)
Ness, from D+ to C (Stage-bouncing is huge, and gimping his up B is a bit more situational than expected.)
Shulk (Defense) placed in D (Not higher within D due to Doc's down B-- a cautious placement.)
*Changelog has been updated... because that's not a weird meta-update or anything... Added colors, with deeper red or green representing more drastic falls or rises within the rankings respectiely. Also reformatted Shulk's arts with color coding for some clarity.

Version 2.6

Spoiler

S

S-

A+

A

A-
( with 'Jump' Monado Art)
B+

B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-


Changelog:
New Tier: S- (For those with safe, long range recovery, yet who still aren't 'the best like no one ever was'.)
Lucario, from S to S- (There can only be one.)
Shiek, from A+ to S- (Not that far off from Lucario.)
Greninja, from A+ to S- (Following Shiek.)
Zelda, from A+ to S- (Following Shiek.)
ZSS, from A to S- (Options make up for the few situational inconsistencies.)
Villager, remains at A+ (I'd rather make a whole new tier than get caught in Villager's constant tweaks.)
Palutena, from A to A+ (The opposite of Villager: perfectly safe, but average range.)
Game & Watch, from A to A+ (Following Palutena.)
Dedede, from A- to A (Felt no worse than Metaknight, and a bit safer than Jiggly/Kirby.)
Jigglypuff, from A to A- (Footstool gimping reduces safety.)
Pit/Dark Pit, from A- to A (I was not considering their multiple jumps before, only their up B.)
Wario, from B+ to A- (He can recover from literally anywhere with that bike.)
Jump Art Shulk, from B+ to A- (Feels on-par with Wario.)
Rosalina, from A- to B+ (Inconsistent and lacking safety; feels no better than Olimar.)
Charizard, from C- to B (Super armor and side B were previously unaccounted for-- comparable to Ike.)
Ike, past Peach within B (Tentative, to settle nearer to Yoshi while Peach is nearer Fox.)
Diddy Kong, from B to B- (Feels to have similar properties to Fox: gimpable and predictable, but with good range.)
ROB, from bottom B- to top C+ (Slight tweak, didn't actually move past anyone.)
DHD, from C- to D+ (Incredibly slow air speed and gimpability feels similar to Ness.)
Falcon, from D+ to C- (Doesn't feel quite that far from Bowser, and he's certainly not so gimpable as Ness.)
DK, from bottom D+ to top D+ (Feels significantly safer than Ness/DHD during up B.)
Dr. Mario, from D- to D (Ganon doesn't need a solo tier-- the gap between him and Doc isn't that steep.)
E tier, renamed to D- (Because I refuse to ever type 'Little Mac moving up', and D- was empty w/o Doc.)

Version 2.5

Spoiler

S

A+

A

A-

B+
( with 'Jump' Monado Art)
B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-

E


Changelog:
Lucario, from A+ to S (Reason: Too similar to Pikachu's safe, high range recovery to be lower.)
Shulk (with 'jump' art), from A- to B+ (Reason: Similar range to Sonic's up B, but a bit unwieldy.)
Ike, from B to B+ (Safety feels just enough to edge him up, particularly with his Nair as coverage.)
Fox, from bottom B- to top B- (Others in B- are also gimpable at the start of up Bs, but his range is superior.)
ROB, from C+ to B- (Safety was underestimated slightly, and he feels about on-par with Link, considering.)
Falco, from middle C+ to top C+ (Rises past Marth/Lucina for similar reasons as Fox's rising within his tier.)
Bowser, from D+ to C- (Horizontal range and safety feel to have him potentially a step above Falcon.)
Donkey Kong, from D to D+ (Feels potentially a step above Ganon just as Bowser does a step above Falcon.)

Version 2.4

Spoiler

S

A+

A

A-
( with 'Jump' Monado Art)
B+

B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-

E


Changelog:
Metaknight, from A+ to A (Reason: recovery too jump-dependant.)
Jigglypuff, from A+ to A (Reason: recovery too jump-dependant.)
Villager, from A to A+ (Reason: recovery distance too strong; rockets/slingshot coverage.)
ZSS, from A to A+ (Reason: tether makes gimping much more difficult, considering all her other options.)
Greninja, from A- to A+ (Reason: shadow sneak mixups; threat of hydro pump windbox.)
Sheik, from A to A+ (Reason: recovery distance like Zelda's, yet with more options and better coverage.)
Palutena, from A- to A (Reason: recovery theoretically impossible to gimp, despite less distance than Zelda.)
Game & Watch, from A- to A (Reason: invincibility frames have G&W feeling about equal to Palutena.)
Rosalina, Pit, Dark Pit, from B+ to A- (Reason: slightly safer, yet slightly less range, than Kirby/Dedede.)
Sonic, Megaman, from B to B+ (Reason: acting out of up B options and good range feels to match Wario.)
Pac Man, from B to B+ (Reason: side B mixups and the sheer distance up B can cover.)
Bowser Jr., from B- to B (Reason: remaining a step below Sonic/Megaman, who've more options out of up B.)
Diddy Kong, from B- to B (Reason: charged up B range and side B mixups feel to put him above Link and co.)
Samus, moved within B (Reason: screw attack safer than spin attack from the Links.)
Fox, from B- to B (Reason: range exceeds the Links, particularly horizontally, balancing his gimpability a bit.)
Falco, from C+ to B- (Reason: remaining a step below Fox, whose up B covers much more distance.)
ROB, moved within C+ (Reason: distance better than WFT, who isn't significantly safer given up B's weak hits.)
Shulk (Jump Monado), moved from B+ to A- (Reason: felt equivalent to Pit, who also moved.)

QUICK UPDATE: ZSS shifted down past Zelda, who moves up. ZSS's consistency, given the angles needed to tether, is certainly not A+ rank, particularly on non-walled stages. A tier rearranged a bit, as well, but this wasn't enough changes to be worth a full update.

Version 2.3

Spoiler

S

A+

A

A-

B+
( with 'Jump' Monado Art)
B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-

E


Changelog:
Villager from A+ to A (Reason: Gimpable)
Wii Fit Trainer from C- to C+ (Reason: I'm an idiot who didn't mash B)
Game and Watch from B- to A- (Reason: Invulnerability frames during up B)
Charizard from C to C- (Reason: Slow air speed; gimpability)
ROB from B to C+ (Reason: Extremely gimpable; slow recovery)
Megaman from C+ to B (Reason: Myriad options out of Up B; stage-covering options)
Bowser Jr from C+ to B- (Reason: Options out of Up B)
Ike from B to B- (Reason: Lackluster diagonal recovery; predictable horizontal recovery)
Rosalina from B- to B+ (Reason: Up B functions similarly to Pit's, yet was rated far lower)

Version 2.2

Spoiler

S

A+

A

A-

B+
( with 'Jump' Monado Art)
B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-

E


Changelog:
Wario C- to B+
Luigi C- to C
Mario C to C-
Little Mac D- to E (new tier for the single worst)
Pikachu A+ to S (new tier for the single best)
Metaknight A to A+
Jigglypuff A to A+
Dedede B+ to A-
ZSS A- to A

Version 2.1

Spoiler

A+

A

A-

B+
( with 'Jump' Monado Art)
B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-


Changelog:
Villager+
Fox+
Falco+
Jigglypuff+
Kirby+
Metaknight+
Pit+
Dark Pit+
Pac Man+
Yoshi-
Dedede-
Marth-
Lucina-
Ike-
ZSS-
Wii Fit Trainer-

Version 2.0

Spoiler

A+

A

A-

B+
( with 'Jump' Monado Art)
B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-


A loose idea of what the letters mean...
A=Great range and highly difficult to gimp
B=Great range and mildly difficult to gimp -OR- Average range and highly difficult to gimp
C=Great range and easy to gimp -OR- Average range and mildly difficult to gimp
D=Average range and easy to gimp -OR- Limited range

Version 1.0

Spoiler

A+

A

A-
(*)
B+

B

B-

C+

C

C-

D+

D

D-


*Monado jump art rating.

Again, this is only a few days' worth of testing, so someone who's had hundreds of hours of recovery practice with any given character is bound to have leagues more information to work with. While I did try to keep as much in mind as possible, it's difficult to rate recoveries by nature, since there's not just distance, but predictability, gimpability, and so on... Distance is still the most heavily rated aspect, regardless, with other factors typically causing a shift of a + or -... or, more rarely, a single letter change.

Things are really starting to take lose shape now, but keep in mind that everything is, and always will be, subject to change! It's your input that I value above all else, as there's always bound to be something new for me to consider. Custom moves are currently not being considered, as clarity is being prioritized in lieu of completionism, and I'm currently just scrambling to figure out the DLC characters! Additionally, the latest update has done away with the previous +/- system in favor of a more traditional tier system of SS/S/A/B/C/D/E/F, so we'll see how confusing that ends up... @.@

LAST UPDATED: 8/3/2015, 11:06 AM EST

 

[kyxsune]

Err, I think Zss should be much higher, since all of her special moves are methods of recovery, and she can recover from "almost" anywhere . I've personally done some ridiculous recoveries with down B of wall to up B or tether. Or straight up B for vertical recovery.

 

[Jabejazz]

Seems to me you're only rating recovery on the distance they cover, while edgeguard resistance is just as, if not more important.

 

[One Tilt]

Err, I think Zss should be much higher, since all of her special moves are methods of recovery, and she can recover from "almost" anywhere . I've personally done some ridiculous recoveries with down B of wall to up B or tether. Or straight up B for vertical recovery.

I'd factored wall jumping in a fair bit, but I'm currently limited to the 3ds for testing, so I've never really gotten the down B to do much in way of vertical recovery. The way it bounces off doesn't really set up for an up B. She has plenty of horizontal recovery, certainly, but if just counting vertical recovery when walls are present, even Little Mac can recover from some extremely low areas. Diagonal recovery seems to be the more pressing matter to ZSS, and, if her 2nd jump is gimped out of her, my experience has been that recovery with just her remaining up B or the like feels unimpressive. The key is how reliant she is on her 2nd jump, which, if you're being potentially gimped, you're not apt to always have.

That said, I most certainly haven't done much in way of testing tethers, and I'm mostly disregarding wall jumps because of the 'baseline' for such things typically being battlefield or base FD. ZSS's recovery doesn't feel bad, by any means... just a bit limited. Where do you think she belongs, though? Sheik seems a good comparison for 'better than ZSS with similar tools', like wall jump teching, so I can see anything up to a step below Sheik being viable. Do you feel like ZSS's kit has an edge over Samus? Their double-jump to up B and tethers are quite similar, and I chalked Samus's bomb-stalling up to equivalent to ZSS's down B. I do still have her at the top of C+ rank, so she's certainly borderline (the tiers are slightly in order of proficiency, but the lines between them are too fuzzy to call inter-tier ordering that significant).

ZSS's up B just feels like its lack of diagonal range really potentially screws you over, while her down B hasn't struck me as the most valuable tool. I definitely have minimal experience with their tethers, so I can certainly see her rising if that's just a much more practical option than up B from diagonals and I've just failed to test for that sufficiently.

Seems to me you're only rating recovery on the distance they cover, while edgeguard resistance is just as, if not more important.

Quite true. I've been weighing distance much more heavily as it's a bit less arbitrary, but how vulnerable one's recovery is plays such a huge factor-- part of why I'm asking here. I did manage to account for some of this, but it's most certainly a work in progress. Who do you feel has particularly vulnerable recovery? Particularly safe? Which of either do you think knocks them down or sends them higher along the list? Does the basis of my preliminary standings seem to be a loose approximation, or greviously off? If the latter, what else might bear fixing?

I'm all for trying to build something useful of this if possible, so I'm all for as much information as everyone can toss at the idea.

 

[Jabejazz]

All factors considered, I'm enclined to believe that Pikachu has the best recovery in the game. I don't think that played well, a Pikachu can ever be edgeguarded. Next comes ZSS, Greninja, Sheik, Peach (not necessarily in that order).

Dedede, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Villager and Olimar should definitely be lower; they have relatively exploitable recoveries, moreso in the case of Olimar.

Then comes the custom moves, which add another layer of complexity to all of that.

 

[Boy Jordan]

Shouldn't Fox be higher? He can Up B after using his Side B, and his Up B already provides some of the best vertical distance out of any of 'em. Plus it's a very safe recovery.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Seems to me you're only rating recovery on the distance they cover, while edgeguard resistance is just as, if not more important.

This, 100%

As a Rosalina main, there's no way her recovery is an A-. Sure, it covers a lot of distance, moves very quickly, and can be angled... But it has no hit box whatsoever, and getting back to the stage isn't always so easy for her because of that. The best opponents I have played can make getting back to the stage very tricky for me. If I go for the ledge they can try to punish me with no risk because of the lack of a hit box, and if I go for the center of the stage that can potentially be punished as well.

Contrast that to Ike, who is listed here with a C+ recovery. Sure the distance on his recovery isn't great, but I find him almost impossible to gimp. As someone who relies on gimps to net a ton of KOs, that is huge. I'd much rather my opponent have a Duck Hunt (like as B-) sort of recovery (more distance, but easily gimped) than an Ike sort of recovery.

I'm not going to make a whole list myself, but here's an example of how I would rank some recoveries.

A+. Covers great distance, is nearly impossible to punish, and has hit boxes.
A: Covers good distance, is very difficult to punish, and has two very strong hit boxes.
A: Works almost exactly like Sheik's, with an even stronger finishing hit.
B: Has great range that allows her to go very deep for gimps, but has no hit box and can be punished (albeit not easily because of the speed and the way it can be angled).
C: Has good vertical range but is slow, has no hit box, and overall is super easy to punish.

 

[kyxsune]

I'd factored wall jumping in a fair bit, but I'm currently limited to the 3ds for testing, so I've never really gotten the down B to do much in way of vertical recovery. The way it bounces off doesn't really set up for an up B. She has plenty of horizontal recovery, certainly, but if just counting vertical recovery when walls are present, even Little Mac can recover from some extremely low areas. Diagonal recovery seems to be the more pressing matter to ZSS, and, if her 2nd jump is gimped out of her, my experience has been that recovery with just her remaining up B or the like feels unimpressive. The key is how reliant she is on her 2nd jump, which, if you're being potentially gimped, you're not apt to always have.

That said, I most certainly haven't done much in way of testing tethers, and I'm mostly disregarding wall jumps because of the 'baseline' for such things typically being battlefield or base FD. ZSS's recovery doesn't feel bad, by any means... just a bit limited. Where do you think she belongs, though? Sheik seems a good comparison for 'better than ZSS with similar tools', like wall jump teching, so I can see anything up to a step below Sheik being viable. Do you feel like ZSS's kit has an edge over Samus? Their double-jump to up B and tethers are quite similar, and I chalked Samus's bomb-stalling up to equivalent to ZSS's down B. I do still have her at the top of C+ rank, so she's certainly borderline (the tiers are slightly in order of proficiency, but the lines between them are too fuzzy to call inter-tier ordering that significant).


Quite true. I've been weighing distance much more heavily as it's a bit less arbitrary, but how vulnerable one's recovery is plays such a huge factor-- part of why I'm asking here. I did manage to account for some of this, but it's most certainly a work in progress. Who do you feel has particularly vulnerable recovery? Particularly safe? Which of either do you think knocks them down or sends them higher along the list? Does the basis of my preliminary standings seem to be a loose approximation, or greviously off? If the latter, what else might bear fixing?

I'm all for trying to build something useful of this if possible, so I'm all for as much information as everyone can toss at the idea.

As far as recoveries go, ZSS is way way above samus, and arguably better than sheik becaus of the invincibility frames on her down B and the way it can pitched to angle high or low. Her recovery options are some of the safest in the game because of the potential to tether to invincibility or attack edge guard with invincibility (via down B).

TBH, I wasn't aware you were not taking into account the safety of the moveset. Regarding distance your list is appropriate , but if we took distance and the potential for mixups, then she would be A tier at least. Losing out to those that teleport and those that can float.

Regarding gimps, under most conditions, shes does not need her second jump due to the (recently nerfed but still ludicrous) range of her tether

 

[One Tilt]

All factors considered, I'm enclined to believe that Pikachu has the best recovery in the game. I don't think that played well, a Pikachu can ever be edgeguarded. Next comes ZSS, Greninja, Sheik, Peach (not necessarily in that order).

Dedede, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Villager and Olimar should definitely be lower; they have relatively exploitable recoveries, moreso in the case of Olimar.

Then comes the custom moves, which add another layer of complexity to all of that.

Their multiple jumps and extreme recovery ranges where what I'd thought kept them difficult to gimp (Jiggly/Kirby), whereas Villiager's ability to reach above the top platform of battlefield without a second jump seemed solid. It's a bit difficult for me to test gimpability on my own, but I can give it a shot... what gimps would you think set the best 'standard' for me to test against? Ideally, 1-3 would hopefully save me some testing time-- testing against every spike on every character combination would be a bit... implausible.

How do you think I should weight gimpability? Should it be a %-based 'how often they can reach the stage' sort of deal, or more a 'distance / gimpability' sort of formula, or perhaps an average of (distance*safety)/2? I can retake measurements of purely recovery and then attempt to measure how well others can gimp them, but I'm just a bit unsure of what moves would be best to test... There's spikes, Fair/nair horizontal gimps, multihit/windbox pseudo-spikes, meteors, edgeguarding on-stage...

Or is testing unnecessary, and are there generalizations that can be made based on the move 'type' (teleports are safe, no-hitbox 'boost' moves like pit/rosaluma are unsafe, etc.)? I'm all for redoing this as many times as it takes, so I'm interested in any improved methods you can all offer.

Shouldn't Fox be higher? He can Up B after using his Side B, and his Up B already provides some of the best vertical distance out of any of 'em. Plus it's a very safe recovery.

I've found very few characters who can't recover horizontally from the blast zones, although many do take their double-jump for it, unlike Fox. That said, the 'stalling' aspect of Fox's up B has always been potentially vulnerable to spikes, and his recovery has very predictable angles as well. Add to that his limited ability to recover from bottom corners, and he felt about the same as Link-- better horizontal, but a mite less safety... not that I've managed to fit enough testing on the safety of recoveries in, by any means.

This, 100%

As a Rosalina main, there's no way her recovery is an A-. Sure, it covers a lot of distance, moves very quickly, and can be angled... But it has no hit box whatsoever, and getting back to the stage isn't always so easy for her because of that. The best opponents I have played can make getting back to the stage very tricky for me. If I go for the ledge they can try to punish me with no risk because of the lack of a hit box, and if I go for the center of the stage that can potentially be punished as well.

Contrast that to Ike, who is listed here with a C+ recovery. Sure the distance on his recovery isn't great, but I find him almost impossible to gimp. As someone who relies on gimps to net a ton of KOs, that is huge. I'd much rather my opponent have a Duck Hunt (like as B-) sort of recovery (more distance, but easily gimped) than an Ike sort of recovery.

I'm not going to make a whole list myself, but here's an example of how I would rank some recoveries.

A+. Covers great distance, is nearly impossible to punish, and has hit boxes.
A: Covers good distance, is very difficult to punish, and have two very strong hit boxes.
A: Works almost exactly like Sheiks, with an even stronger finishing hit.
B: Has great range that allows her to go very deep for gimps, but has no hit box and can be punished (albeit not easily because of the speed and the way it can be angled).
C: Has good vertical range but is slow, has no hit box, and overall is super easy to punish.

All very useful information-- Pikachu definitely looks like an A+ for safety, and, given his impressive range atop that, does look like the most solid example of a top tier recovery to use as a baseline. Very much appreciate the input on Rosalina-- and I've played enough Sheik to get what you mean by Sheik's relative safety (and, given Zelda's near-identical recovery range and ability to hitbox, I feel like she'd be the same rank as Sheik).

---

What character/characters would all of you think fits as a testing model for me to try gimping with? ZSS's footstool? Sheik's Fair? Ganondorf's Dair? Little Mac's Dsmash? All of the above? More tests will certainly mean it takes a lot more time to revise, but it can't take any longer than measuring the recovery distances did... though, even those, methinks, could be done more accurately, now that I have a system for it.

I'll be revising for an ad-hoc version two (to be included in the first post) off of more heavily considering the safety of recoveries, so by all means offer up your views on who has the safest and riskiest recoveries, too-- also, any thoughts on the C-and-below (ignoring C+ for the moment) sorts? Also, when I do update, I'll leave the first list up-- can keep a record of the progression if doing so that way, and spoilers keep it from getting spammy.

I was attempting to factor safety a bit, but it was only shifting my placements by a single place or so to start. Definitely hearing a lot of pros to ZSS's recovery in terms of safety, so she'll definitely be in the A range on the updated list. Sounds like Lucario and Pikachu are about A+, while Shiek, ZSS, and Zelda look about A, then... LM's no doubt remaining D- unless I widen the letter-gap for him or the like... also, any thoughts on the ranking system itself? Letters with +/- working out in terms of clarity? Will post an updated list once I can get some approximation of each of the cast to work with. While Kirby and co. have unsafe recoveries, I wonder how heavily that should factor? A/A- range? Or much lower? They're certainly not Pikachu level, in any case.

Perhaps some guidelines for letter-ratings, thinking of it? Something like...
A=Great range and highly difficult to gimp
B=Great range and mildly difficult to gimp -OR- Average range and highly difficult to gimp
C=Great range and easy to gimp -OR- Average range and mildly difficult to gimp
D=Average range and easy to gimp -OR- Limited range

I feel like a limited range would outweigh gimpability once it got severe enough (D rank)... any thoughts on that sort of reformation? Having poorly defined 'tiers' sounds to be a core issue, as the combining of safety and distance wasn't structured, but arbitrary and weighing distance too heavily, clearly...

 

[kyxsune]

@ One Tilt

Glad to hear, regarding a standard gimp marios should work, or sheiks Fair. Obviously no spikes (ZSS's down B lol)

I expect bowser and the space animals to have some of the worst recoveries....stage spike fox all day.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

>Villager not S-Tier
Haha no this is a great thread. Captain Falcon's recovery might not be as good as C-Tier tho. It can stage spike if it hits but it's very easy to stuff

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby can start his D-Air on an opponent, fast fall it, then immediately footstool them. If he has to, as that usually doesn't require more than one jump, you can D-Air again to secure a kill. Also, his B-Air can easily send opponents too far away from the ledge to recover.

However, Pikachu's B-Air may be better for testing.

 

[One Tilt]

Really? So I shouldn't be including resilience to spikes? I feel like that's such a key factor in the vulnerability of, say, Robin's recovery. I'm most familiar with Sheik's Fair/Bair/Nair, Robin's Nair, and... for some reason Little Mac's Nair, of all things, 's far as non-spike gimps go. Should spikes be a factor in this? Some characters (Palutena comes to mind) have recoveries that minimize the threat of even spikes, after all, compared to, say, Fox. Though, thinking of it, not many examples come to mind where there's a real difference between spike and gimp vulnerabilities...

Appreciating all the input, by the way-- keep the advice rolling. Working on list 2 as I continue to reply.

 

[soru]

If this also includes custom moves, I think Palutena superspeed+lightweight+warp = best recovery in the game

 

[Iron Kraken]

Other observations...



You have Captain Falcon and Wii Fit Trainer both listed as C-tier.

For me, Wii Fit Trainer is gimp-able (as are the vast majority of characters), but her recovery does have some things going for her. Her ability to toss out the soccer ball before she goes down and then attempt the recovery provides an important level of protection from gimping.

But Captain Falcon has no layer of protection. I find him incredibly easy to gimp. With Rosalina, getting Falcon off the stage is basically the same thing as getting Little Mac off the stage. If that happens, he's dead.

So Wii Fit Trainer is more difficult to gimp than Captain Falcon (although her recovery is still very vulnerable, Falcon's is just more so), and her recovery covers greater distance than Falcon.


Super easy to gimp. Although I would still say he has a good recovery, because literally I can keep spiking him and unless I can hit him straight to the bottom, he keeps coming back up because he just has that much range. Still, I wouldn't have him as an A-tier.


Has a case for A+. The combination of his gordo protection, great range, and invincibility on the way up means that he can recover from long distances while being very difficult to gimp.

 

[Lavani]

Has a case for A+. The combination of his gordo protection, great range, and invincibility on the way up means that he can recover from long distances while being almost impossible to gimp.

Gordo's only useful for recovering if recovering from really high. At middling heights you're literally just giving your opponent a projectile to kill you with.

His upB has heavy armor, not invincibility. I've been spiked out of it plenty of times when forced to recover low.

Large size and slow air speed do nothing to help his vulnerability, too.

 

[Jabejazz]

Their multiple jumps and extreme recovery ranges where what I'd thought kept them difficult to gimp (Jiggly/Kirby), whereas Villiager's ability to reach above the top platform of battlefield without a second jump seemed solid. It's a bit difficult for me to test gimpability on my own, but I can give it a shot... what gimps would you think set the best 'standard' for me to test against? Ideally, 1-3 would hopefully save me some testing time-- testing against every spike on every character combination would be a bit... implausible.

By edgeguarding, I don't necessarily mean gimping them. I can probably jump off the edge against a Kirby, smack him away and get back on stage. Repeat until he runs out of jumps/dies off the blast zone.

I don't mean their recovery are straight up terrible, but there are recoveries that have a good mix of distance covered/safely getting back on stage.

Due to meteor cancelling being removed anyway, I feel not many recoveries can successfully survive a gimp from a spike, so i probably wouldn't put too much emphasis on gimps/spikes for the time being.

Has a case for A+. The combination of his gordo protection, great range, and invincibility on the way up means that he can recover from long distances while being almost impossible to gimp.

His recovery is really good overall, but a poor air mobility allows good edge guarders to really abuse it and strip him of all of his jumps.

Also vanilla UpB only has super armor for the first half of the ascension. UpB 2 has invincibilty for roughly the same duration.

His upB has heavy armor, not invincibility.

I stand corrected.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Gordo's only useful for recovering if recovering from really high. At middling heights you're literally just giving your opponent a projectile to kill you with.

His upB has heavy armor, not invincibility. I've been spiked out of it plenty of times when forced to recover low.

Large size and slow air speed do nothing to help his vulnerability, too.

Thanks for the input. I agree that the gordo is useful specifically for when he's high. I know I can gimp Dedede, but I certainly find him among the most difficult to gimp. Combine that with his recovery range and overall he's in good shape.

 

[One Tilt]

Version 2 posted! I also included your recommendations on Dedede, Olimar, et cetera to help weight in the vulnerability a bit... Dedede not A+, for sure, but a bit above Kirby and co (so D3's A-) might fit. Olimar at B+ (or lower) thanks to his high vulnerability (but then ability to keep trying), and WFT > Falcon...

Check out the 2nd version and let me know what needs changing-- it's using safety far more as a factor, but, again, I'm looking for as much input as possible. I'd like to try and start by finalizing A+ and the D tiers first, if possible, if there are any nominees to send to either tier (or detract from either). Working on the lower A tiers is certainly nice as well (those can give us some breathing room to sort out the middle tiers-- perhaps by first dividing the remaining roster between B and C before deciding on the +/-s?).

Additionally, any thoughts on an E tier (specifically for Little Mac) or an S tier (specifically for the likes of Pikachu/Lucario), to create some breathing room?

 

[Jams.]

Unless I'm crazy, isn't on this list.

 

[One Tilt]

Unless I'm crazy, isn't on this list.

****... there's so many characters! Updating...

 

[One Tilt]

Messed up an edit and double posted... First post fixed, ROB included (and his original rating).

 

[Zatchiel]

I don't see how Shulk is so low. With Jump equipped he can make it back from just about anywhere. I concur with his placement otherwise but with Jump his recovery is one of the best without a doubt.

 

[One Tilt]

I don't see how Shulk is so low. With Jump equipped he can make it back from just about anywhere. I concur with his placement otherwise but with Jump his recovery is one of the best without a doubt.

Ah, I forgot to add his rank with the monado on the 2nd list. His current ranking is without, in any case-- will add the jump art recovery presently. ^^"

 

[Lavani]

Not necessarily saying this should influence anything, but I guess it helps to quantify the recovery potential of certain characters if nothing else, and I personally think it's kind of cool to know.

Spoiler: Characters that can cross under FD

xxx2

With customs:
x3xx
xx33
x2xx or x3xx or xxx2
x33x
xx3x

 

[MartinAW4]

Greninja is way too low. Hydro Pump is very fast and has the same range as Pikachu`s Quick Attack. Then you have Shadow Sneak which not only allows it to cover a lot of horizontal distance (1/2 of FD) but also allows it to teleport instantly through projectiles which not even Pikachu`s Skull Bash or Lucario`s Extremespeed can do and punishes anyone standing near the edge trying to edgeguard. Greninja can recover from basically anywhere while being practically impossible to gimp.
Its recovery is definitely better than Sheik`s, so I`d either put it at the top of A tier or bottom of A+ tier.

Some other things I`d change are:
King DDD to C tier. He has 5 jumps and good range on his Up B but because of his huge size and low aerial speed, he is very easy to gimp. Not even super armor on his Up B changes this since you can gimp him way before he comes close enough to the stage to Up B and even if he does, it is very punishable on the way down. So great range but easy to gimp, that is the definition of C tier.

Villager to A tier. The range on his recovery is possibly the best in the game and he isn˙t even easy to gimp through the protection of his ballons and all the different ways he can go to the stage. He can even go under the whole stage and recover to the opposite ledge if he wants or pressure edgeguarders with the Lloid rocket. Honestly, he might even be A+ tier material.

I`d also put Ike (big target, weak to projectiles and pushback effects like Greninja`s Hydro Pump, Mario`s fludd...), Yoshi (bad vertical recovery) and Mario (horrible range, why is he higher than Luigi?) lower.
And Pit, Dark Pit, Fox, Falco should be higher.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Looking at version 2.0 of your list...

It's definitely an improvement in that it takes both range and safety into account. However, I think this time you may have gone more to the other extreme.


Villager should still be near the top because he literally can't die unless you know knock him completely into the blast zone, and he can go so far that opponents can't "edge guard" him in the traditional sense, since he can land anywhere on the stage from anywhere on the map (albeit not always with complete safety).


Should also be near the very top. Jigglypuff is the only character in the game that can consistently safely recover high. Her 6 jumps and aerial mobility are just that good.


Also have too much range on their recovery to be in C tier. Yes they can be gimped, but they had 4 jumps and massive range on the Up+B. I would rate them at least where you ranked Rosalina.


Seriously, they can Side+B into Up+B, cover a lot of range, and have hit boxes. Can they be gimped? Sure, but more characters can be. They shouldn't be this low.


Should be way lower. They're pretty easy to gimp, and the range of their recovery is pretty poor as well. I think they're ranked way too highly at the moment.


I already said that his recovery is solid because of how difficult it is to gimp, but B+ seems too high for a recovery without great range.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

By the way, Kirby with Jump Monado has the best recovery in the game. One regular mid-air jump go higher than almost every recovery in the game, lol.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Greninja is way too low. Hydro Pump is very fast and has the same range as Pikachu`s Quick Attack. Then you have Shadow Sneak which not only allows it to cover a lot of horizontal distance (1/2 of FD) but also allows it to teleport instantly through projectiles which not even Pikachu`s Skull Bash or Lucario`s Extremespeed can do and punishes anyone standing near the edge trying to edgeguard. Greninja can recover from basically anywhere while being practically impossible to gimp.
Its recovery is definitely better than Sheik`s, so I`d either put it at the top of A tier or bottom of A+ tier.

Some other things I`d change are:
King DDD to C tier. He has 5 jumps and good range on his Up B but because of his huge size and low aerial speed, he is very easy to gimp. Not even super armor on his Up B changes this since you can gimp him way before he comes close enough to the stage to Up B and even if he does, it is very punishable on the way down. So great range but easy to gimp, that is the definition of C tier.

Villager to A tier. The range on his recovery is possibly the best in the game and he isn˙t even easy to gimp through the protection of his ballons and all the different ways he can go to the stage. He can even go under the whole stage and recover to the opposite ledge if he wants or pressure edgeguarders with the Lloid rocket. Honestly, he might even be A+ tier material.

I`d also put Ike (big target, weak to projectiles and pushback effects like Greninja`s Hydro Pump, Mario`s fludd...), Yoshi (bad vertical recovery) and Mario (horrible range, why is he higher than Luigi?) lower.
And Pit, Dark Pit, Fox, Falco should be higher.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

...But apparently I missed the boat on Dedede being so easy to gimp. Which is weird, because I consider gimping one of the things I'm best at. From now on I'm resolved to go after Dedede more!

 

[kyxsune]

Like your 2.0 list but honestly villager should probably be in the A+ tier, ZSS and palutena should be swapped. Good progress nonetheless.

 

[One Tilt]

Alright, I've taken the posts thus far into account once more, and have update 2.1 (going by decimals and including a changelog whilst things are in minor-chaos just so I can update frequently without the numbers getting all Final Fantasy on us...). Normalized it a bit between the previous two (fantastically good recoveries are still high, but the likes of Pikachu are tops). I moved ZSS down to Palutena, but I felt wary of moving Palutena into a tier that had two other teleporters who both had more range and hitboxes on their teleports (Sheik and Zelda). The Pits swapped with Marth/Lucina then overtook them yet further, Yoshi/Ike are a bit down for their ranges, Greninja's up a bit (though, I've tested, and he's really not Pikachu level recovery... and his lack of damaging hitboxes has me fear for his gimpability a bit. Might rise more if deemed necessary...). Floaters are up in general, though D3 is down a bit for his gimpability. Fox/Falco are also up around Marth/Lucina's new place, while Wii Fit Trainer gets the slightest knock as her recovery is pretty slow and of less-than-impressive range (though she still remains a tier above Falcon). As an aside, I've put Dr. Mario in D-, so Mac doesn't get lonely (neither really needed a tier to themselves). Also moved Pac Man up next to ROB for having similarly great recovery range, but potential gimpability.

Fantastic input thus-far, everyone! Will try to stay as active as possible in the thread to keep things rolling with regular main-post updates. ^^

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Excuse me for my possible lack of knowledge, but why is Mario higher than Luigi? Doesn't he have better options to cover himself while recovering, or no?

 

[One Tilt]

Excuse me for my possible lack of knowledge, but why is Mario higher than Luigi? Doesn't he have better options to cover himself while recovering, or no?

Mostly just because Luigi's diagonal recovery is all but nonexistent (that is, recovery from the bottom corners). His 2nd jump goes further, but his up B completely lacks for DI along with having some unimpressive distance and quite the weak non-sweetspot hit... He seemed about on-par with Wario (all the horizontal recovery he'd ever need, but kinda screwed if anything more vertical is required). If Luigi's down B happens to help his recovery, though, then that could certainly change things... but my testing seems to have it landing you right where you started the move rather than really helping you to recover. The strictly vertical recovery of Luigi's up B makes him feel a lot more risky just because of stage spikes, is the gist of it, though. That said, the Mario bros. were some of the first I tested, so I likely got less information out of the tests while I was figuring the process-- does Luigi's recovery feel to be better than Mario's? Or just far less significantly lesser than the ranking implies? Typically, when similar characters share a recovery move, but one has the move itself going further while the other has a better second jump, it's the one with the stronger up B distance who's 'safer' (Fox>Falco), but that doesn't necessarily mean there's always the same gap.

Where do you think Mario, Luigi, and for that matter Wario or Dr. Mario might belong?

 

[Lavani]

Luigi's downB helps his recovery significantly, but it takes some god tier mashing to see positive results out of it. He can cover a lot more distance than Mario optimally though.

 

[Antonykun]

I noticed Villager is A+ tier and I want to say that the reason why I would like him to stay there is not because of the recovery moves themselves as they are slow or predictable but because Villager can throw all sorts of projectiles to cover him while he recovers.

 

[One Tilt]

Luigi's downB helps his recovery significantly, but it takes some god tier mashing to see positive results out of it. He can cover a lot more distance than Mario optimally though.

Alrighty then. On the next update, I'll see about including that distinction. That said, it'd be difficult to move them around without a more clear picture of where those surrounding them go, so the next update might take a bit longer.

I noticed Villager is A+ tier and I want to say that the reason why I would like him to stay there is not because of the recovery moves themselves as they are slow or predictable but because Villager can throw all sorts of projectiles to cover him while he recovers.

Villager doesn't look apt to fall from A+ at this point, so no worries there.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

How exactly are you ranking these? By damage dealt, by distance covered, overall usefulness, or what? I'm not getting this...

 

[Fauni]

He seemed about on-par with Wario (all the horizontal recovery he'd ever need, but kinda screwed if anything more vertical is required)

Are you joking? Wario can come back from anywhere on the screen if he has his bike and double jump. Even more so with waft but thats not very practical as you usually only get one or maybe two full charges per match.

 

[One Tilt]

How exactly are you ranking these? By damage dealt, by distance covered, overall usefulness, or what? I'm not getting this...

So far, it's mostly been range minus risk. Pikachu has incredible range and zero risk, while Villager has completely absurd range and some bit of buffer against gimping... I mostly started with distance and am trying to incorporate 'safety', along with details like how many options they have to recover, et cetera. It's certainly quite a mess at the moment, with a lot of characters lost in the initial shuffle and just in weird places now, but the idea is DISTANCE - VULNERABILITY + OPTIONS. While Villager has more vulnerability than Pikachu, Villager also has far more distance, along with some good options (gyroid, slingshot) for dealing with edgeguarding. Dedede may have fantastic distance like the other 'floaters' (Kirby, Jiggly), but his size and such make for a bit more vulnerability. He's still A rank, but at the bottom of it. Sheik, meanwhile, has nearly Pikachu range, as well as safety from an up B that's a teleport and has hitboxes. Zelda's has a safer hitbox, but no bouncing fish, so she's the same rank, while Palutena's instant teleport, while immensely safe, does feel like it has a bit too limited range to quite be as good as the other teleports.

For the moment, though, not including custom moves nor Miis-- we can tackle that once we iron out the defaults first. Though, any tricks to a character's recovery that I may have missed (Luigi's down B actually working, details on Wario, et cetera) are certainly welcome. Going to update the first post in a moment and will include a bit more actual explanation on what I'm trying to make a tier list of-- thanks for letting me know that I was being too vague and explaining too little!

Are you joking? Wario can come back from anywhere on the screen if he has his bike and double jump. Even more so with waft but thats not very practical as you usually only get one or maybe two full charges per match.

Was mainly considering Wario's vertical recovery as the limiting factor. His vertical recovery looks nearly as problematic as DK or such. Again, mostly just went in roster order, so there's bound to be missing information on my part. There are surprisingly few characters who can't make it back from the horizontal blast zones if they have their 2nd jump (LM, Dr. Mario, and maybe Ganondorf), but if the bike also helps his diagonal or vertical recovery ranges at all, then I'll definitely be changing his place. I'd not thought to test his bike whilst recovering vertically. If that helps him, he'd be more in Fox/Falco range, for similarly 'all but infinite' horizontal recovery and a decent, if gimpable, vertical range.

And wectoring -is- out, right? I wasn't misinformed on that? If it's still in, A rank easily. I'm all for pointing out my mistakes, in any case, but I'd appreciate if you can include a suggestion for what rank you think they are when doing so. But no, wasn't a joke-- where do you think Wario belongs? I can do a re-test and change his position to somewhere more suiting his options if his vertical recovery turns out to be bike-aided and such. Even if not, he could be nearer to Falco range for near-infinite horizontal range, but a limited up B (particularly sans jump)... Back to training mode-- Wario'll certainly be moved in the pending update (just need more than him and Luigi moving, as I know there's a lot still wrong with things).

 

[One Tilt]

Updated to 2.2!

Wario bumped up to account for the motorcycle (both in safe horizontal on-stage recovery and for the help it provided vertically), Luigi and Mario swapped for now, as Luigi's options are far superior and his up B provides a smidge more range, new tiers (S and E) created for the 'single best' of either, as to properly show the gaps between Pikachu and Little Mac (Lucario may be great, but he's gimpable at low %, in theory). Metaknight and Jiggly are up, as they have solid, quick aerials to help cover their recoveries (and Metaknight, while he lacks Mach Tornado's Brawl status, still has plenty of options and a disjointed hitbox). Kirby remains A- for the moment, though D3's now alongside him, as D3's armor frames and Kirby's smaller size feel about equal, for now. D3's Gordo and such where the main reason for the raise, along with some testing (he's a bit less gimpable than I'd expected, if not much so). Might still be B+ material, though. Zero Suit is up as her completely insane tether far outranges any other in the game (I'd thought the nerf brought it more in line with Samuses, but I was definitely mistaken). Palutena keeps getting considered for a raise, but she just doesn't have the range to recover from 'anywhere', even if her recovery's arguably the safest in the game. First post is also updated to give a bit of an explanation as to what we're trying to rate (that is, how often one can recover, given their range, safety, et cetera), as it was pointed out that I didn't really explain very well, and recovery could mean 'just their up B'.

Ack-- sorry for the double post. Had completely forgotten that mine was the last post. >//<