Real talk: custom moves, to ban or not to ban?

[Goten21]

IMHO, you shouldn't

Smash is all about the moment, and adjusting to yourself to your enemy adds all to the depth of the game! It'd actually be a shame to not allow something like this

BUT, maybe some more experienced people can give better insight on this

Discuss

 

[LIQUID12A]

I'm pretty sure there are other similar threads where this question would fit in and a new thread is unnecessary.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I believe they have mentioned that they won't be as balanced. Even if they try, the odds that they would succeed is astronomical.

They are for fun and that's it.

 

[Second Power]

I believe they have mentioned that they won't be as balanced. Even if they try, the odds that they would succeed is astronomical.

They are for fun and that's it.

Yeah, because we definitely have not played with OP moves before. *brushes melee shine, mach tornado, every cg, wobbling, and more under the rug* ...Don't think it all fits under the rug.

Some characters will gain viability thanks to custom moves, I can't see a way a character can lose viability due to them, and its a way to stave off metagame stagnation.

 

[ferioku]

I believe they have mentioned that they won't be as balanced. Even if they try, the odds that they would succeed is astronomical.

They are for fun and that's it.

No, you're just part of the minority that don't want custom move sets to be played competitively, but the thing is, none of us know if its fully balanced, in fact, it looks fairly balanced i you look at it properly. It will help balance the game in a way that bottom tier characters will be usefull and if certain characters custom move is too OP, we could easily pick which custom moves the ban.

 

[Fire Tactician]

I feel like they could be an interesting addition to 3DS tournaments since everyone will have their own system with custom moves all ready to go. Then, the Wii U version tournaments could focus more on all the default movesets to avoid the hassle. Two different metagames.

 

[ptrk83]

^ Agree... Chibo thought the same thing

 

[Fire Tactician]

Regardless what us 3DS owners will do, the Wii U version will be seen as the main version. Let people who want exact, uniformed gameplay use that version. Leave the quirky, less balanced (possibly) metagame to the personal system owners who don't flock to the "main event."

 

[A Lucky Person]

My only thing is this: it's been shown that the custom moves screen is also where you add speed, attack, and defense equipment to your character. How will we know if someone sprinkled a few points into offense so that it wouldn't be that noticeable?

If there's a way to cheat, some people will use it. The less noticeable, the better. I once battled a 35-year-old man at Pokémon VGCs who used an RNG hack to get the Ice Beam freeze every single time he used the move.

 

[LIQUID12A]

The less noticeable, the better. I once battled a 35-year-old man at Pokémon VGCs who used an RNG hack to get the Ice Beam freeze every single time he used the move.

And this man somehow wasn't caught?

 

[Goten21]

My only thing is this: it's been shown that the custom moves screen is also where you add speed, attack, and defense equipment to your character. How will we know if someone sprinkled a few points into offense so that it wouldn't be that noticeable?

If there's a way to cheat, some people will use it. The less noticeable, the better. I once battled a 35-year-old man at Pokémon VGCs who used an RNG hack to get the Ice Beam freeze every single time he used the move.

Oh wow on that last part... Maybe have people check your items when it's down to the last 32 people or so

 

[Raijinken]

I expect it will vary by tournament host, but I feel like they add something to that "depth" everyone keeps talking about, if they're allowed. At the very least, they shouldn't be banned just because "Sakurai said they'd be unbalanced", since he did not explicitly state that, and in some cases they may help an otherwise weak character have a much-needed trick.

I, at least, will be using them until I've had time to test them all extensively.

 

[Fire Tactician]

My only thing is this: it's been shown that the custom moves screen is also where you add speed, attack, and defense equipment to your character. How will we know if someone sprinkled a few points into offense so that it wouldn't be that noticeable?

If there's a way to cheat, some people will use it. The less noticeable, the better. I once battled a 35-year-old man at Pokémon VGCs who used an RNG hack to get the Ice Beam freeze every single time he used the move.

Geez, how does that even work with Ice Beam? That's horrible!

About stats, I was acting under the assumption that stats were included alongside custom moves (a poor assumption to make, but one nonetheless). Stat customizations could result in a crazy, strategic metagame. Blisteringly fast Meta Knights giving you problems? Better use my Ike with flinch resistance and power to abuse invincibility frames. Oh, my opponent caught on and is focusing on their own defense with their next choice by using a bulky Robin? I guess that I'll use my extra speedy Ness to fake him out.

Stat changes could lead to some very interesting choices (speedier Boswers or bruiser Peaches or maybe a bulky Pikachu) and a varied metagame. Just look at the Pokémon VGCS this year- someone somehow ran a bulky Pachirisu and won. Who's to say that the most bottom tier character in Smash 4 wouldn't be a perfect anti-metagame character with some stat redistribution?

 

[Pazzo.]

I'd be all for it.

Custom moves could add another fine layer of depth to Smash Bros.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Stats should not be permitted, but custom moves could add a lot of diversity to competitive play, and perhaps even make some unfavourable MUs....balanced. I'm all for it.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

Geez, how does that even work with Ice Beam? That's horrible!

About stats, I was acting under the assumption that stats were included alongside custom moves (a poor assumption to make, but one nonetheless). Stat customizations could result in a crazy, strategic metagame. Blisteringly fast Meta Knights giving you problems? Better use my Ike with flinch resistance and power to abuse invincibility frames. Oh, my opponent caught on and is focusing on their own defense with their next choice by using a bulky Robin? I guess that I'll use my extra speedy Ness to fake him out.

Stat changes could lead to some very interesting choices (speedier Boswers or bruiser Peaches or maybe a bulky Pikachu) and a varied metagame. Just look at the Pokémon VGCS this year- someone somehow ran a bulky Pachirisu and won. Who's to say that the most bottom tier character in Smash 4 wouldn't be a perfect anti-metagame character with some stat redistribution?

On top of this, aren't the customized stats limited to certain balances? Like, you can't totally max out every stat; all of the boosters also drop in other places. I look at it like Pokémon EVs; you only have so much to work with, so you want to use the most optimum mixture for what you're trying to accomplish. There will be standard distributions based on what the community has deemed most optimal, but there will always be the opportunity to try something different and catch the opponent by surprise.

 

[Raijinken]

Geez, how does that even work with Ice Beam? That's horrible!

About stats, I was acting under the assumption that stats were included alongside custom moves (a poor assumption to make, but one nonetheless). Stat customizations could result in a crazy, strategic metagame. Blisteringly fast Meta Knights giving you problems? Better use my Ike with flinch resistance and power to abuse invincibility frames. Oh, my opponent caught on and is focusing on their own defense with their next choice by using a bulky Robin? I guess that I'll use my extra speedy Ness to fake him out.

Stat changes could lead to some very interesting choices (speedier Boswers or bruiser Peaches or maybe a bulky Pikachu) and a varied metagame. Just look at the Pokémon VGCS this year- someone somehow ran a bulky Pachirisu and won. Who's to say that the most bottom tier character in Smash 4 wouldn't be a perfect anti-metagame character with some stat redistribution?

I was initially against stat modifications, but after a while I started thinking this way, and think they could be fine. That said, that would probably need to wait until there has been extensive testing. According to some of the information, two items with the same name may not have the same stats, which might make it too unpredictable. However, if, for instance, TOs said the net stat change had to be 0 (or, say, power and speed cannot sum to a number above X), that might be balanceable (after you check to make sure players aren't cheating). It's doable, and can definitely add depth (or at least make the game interesting in other ways, if it turns into Pokemon where maxing your Stats in a certain area is the only accepted way to play), but especially when compared to past games, it'll either take a mindset change or heavy moderation.

On top of this, aren't the customized stats limited to certain balances? Like, you can't totally max out every stat; all of the boosters also drop in other places. I look at it like Pokémon EVs; you only have so much to work with, so you want to use the most optimum mixture for what you're trying to accomplish. There will be standard distributions based on what the community has deemed most optimal, but there will always be the opportunity to try something different and catch the opponent by surprise.

If I recall from screens shown in Directs and whatnot, attack and defense both take away from Speed, so it would be possible to make either a super tank, or perhaps a glass cannon. It's hard to tell without the final product, but the non-attack/speed/defense modifiers would probably have a bigger impact than pure stats.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

If I recall from screens shown in Directs and whatnot, attack and defense both take away from Speed, so it would be possible to make either a super tank, or perhaps a glass cannon. It's hard to tell without the final product, but the non-attack/speed/defense modifiers would probably have a bigger impact than pure stats.

What else did they have? Jump and knockback? Something else? I think it would make sense that those would factor into the same kind of balancing mechanics. We haven't seen anything about those, so it's mostly speculation on my part, but I anticipate they'll also be balanced. You could have a "sticker" that boosts speed and jumping, but makes you lighter and less strong, or one that makes you strong and fast, but easy to knock off and with minimal jumping abilities.

All kinds of combinations could be possible and I think the competitive metagame would benefit from allowing the options. As was said, customizable moves can make less viable characters usable. I think this applies to stat customization provided there is a balancing factor to every boost you get. You may not even need to worry about cheaters; if the boosts work like SSE's stickers, there's only so much you can apply and the player has to decide which combination works best.

 

[Raijinken]

What else did they have? Jump and knockback? Something else? I think it would make sense that those would factor into the same kind of balancing mechanics. We haven't seen anything about those, so it's mostly speculation on my part, but I anticipate they'll also be balanced. You could have a "sticker" that boosts speed and jumping, but makes you lighter and less strong, or one that makes you strong and fast, but easy to knock off and with minimal jumping abilities.

All kinds of combinations could be possible and I think the competitive metagame would benefit from allowing the options. As was said, customizable moves can make less viable characters usable. I think this applies to stat customization provided there is a balancing factor to every boost you get. You may not even need to worry about cheaters; if the boosts work like SSE's stickers, there's only so much you can apply and the player has to decide which combination works best.

I agree with this. Though, best we know from any screenshots and footage, you get one weapon slot, one foot slot, and one armor slot (the naming of which will probably vary by character), which seemed to primarily affect offense, speed, and defense respectively. If the parts are truly randomized, that could be a bigger balance issue than if there was a finite number of unique parts (after all, a finite number would be trackable, purely random could result in pure upgrades like no-stat-change shoes that give you flinch resistance when jumping). I definitely think there's a lot of room for it to contribute to a healthy and versatile metagame, I'm just afraid people will ban it offhand without putting real effort into analyzing it.

 

[Fire Tactician]

. However, if, for instance, TOs said the net stat change had to be 0 (or, say, power and speed cannot sum to a number above X), that might be balanceable (after you check to make sure players aren't cheating).

Something along the lines of "stats need to be below +20 could work.

 

[Captain Norris]

Did we really need another "should custom moves be banned" thread? We already have tons of them.
Basically, like all the other ones have really ended up, custom moves should not be banned unless proven they need banned, while the equipment will more than likely be banned due to the randomness.
This thread doesn't need to be imo.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I could see it working if it was a separate tourney. Singles, Doubles, and Custom.

 

[Renji64]

Wait about 2 weeks and we will find out soon.

 

[PingPongCop]

Custom Moves should be allowed. Period. I am confident they will be balanced.

I am against the idea that the two games should have different metas. Why?

Also, custom stats shouldn't be permitted because the stats given are random. Like KI:U (another game Sakurai directed) you can have two of the same weapon and have totally different and unbalaced stats. Limiting them to "20 or below" wouldn't help at all. Everyone would spend most of their time grinding for the highest stats possible instead of actually playing the game. It's just a bad idea.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

This topic has been beaten to death tbh

I think they have some real value. More options is never a bad thing to start with.

If it's necessary to ban them, they should be banned later on.

 

[Beatness]

My question is why don't we have have two different types of competitive? Why does there only have to be one way to do things?
I foresee there being two different types of tournament rules, one allowing customization and one not.

 

[Ellipsis]

My question is why don't we have have two different types of competitive? Why does there only have to be one way to do things?
I foresee there being two different types of tournament rules, one allowing customization and one not.

Fragmentation. It takes a lot of effort to reach high levels of skill, so a lot of players aren't going to try to perfect multiple rulesets at once. Before long we'll either end up with two smaller communities (unlikely in my opinion), or one popular ruleset alongside "that other ruleset" that never gets used.

 

[Jerm]

I personally think they should be allowed because they could turn a once horrible character into a much more viable one. What if Ganondorf was able to customize his specials in Brawl to improve his recovery or improve him in some other aspect, he may have the chance he needs to get his way out of the bottom of the bottom.

 

[ErenJager]

In my opinion, which could be right or wrong, just my hunch, is that they should be ban.

If they weren't ban, then only add them if they were purely cosmetic.

Characters should be purely definitive for balance purposes.

Also for competitive reasons you need to know what to expect and anticipate from opponents.

Variety opens up the gates for unfounded exploits and over powered combos, testing and balance becomes much more difficult for the developers.

Ultimately I say having the custom moves for fun is a fun thing, but I also believe it ultimately took up unwarranted development time. Which could have and should have (in my opinion) been spent on changing some of those final smashes.

 

[MechaWave]

Assuming custom moves will be legal, the main problem would be accessibility. This problem won't matter on the 3DS version because everyone will have their own console, as said above. But for the Wii U version, it can be.

I assume custom moves will be saved to the person's name they create, like custom controls in Brawl. Customizing moves looks pretty easy, if this is how it works. Create your name (like everyone does in tourneys nowadays) and set up your controls and custom moves.

As for stats, I am under the assumption that they must first be enabled and customized before they even have an effect on your character. The only way they'd affect the game would be if someone added stats prior to turning on the Wii U, in which case, TOs should always check to see if someone is potentially cheating this way.

I, personally, am for custom moves and against stats. However, this will need to be discussed in a large scale by more professional players and TOs when the game is launched, or near launch for the Wii U version.

Whether or not custom moves are allowed, I'm gonna jump a bit to a certain character. Palutena's whole gimmick is custom moves, so people that use her should be given an exception.

 

[OptimistNic]

Let's put it this way: we all hate Mario's F.L.U.D.D., right? But the custom variants can make that move useful and competitively viable.

It appears the Scalding F.L.U.D.D. will be a short-range attack with a decent hitbox. And it probably does not charge making it much more useful for fast combat.

Another theory is that for moves who are popularly recognized by the community as useless and lack utility, they can set specific variants to replace them instead. No stat modifiers would be allowed, but the moves can be swapped.

 

[Ghoti]

As @ OptimistNic mentioned, customising Mario's FLUDD could make it pretty useful.

I am looking through the customisable moves and I don't think any of them are OP. They have their own ups and downs to them.

Now, I think it's entirely possible that a particular moveset will be made which is absolutely OP. Could certain custom moves be banned when together?

I'll explain using a made up example.

Let's say that Scalding FLUDD and Shocking Cape together are extremely OP together. Could the combination of the two custom moves together be banned instead of banning custom moves altogether?

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I decided to leave this open. Despite there being several Custom Moves and competitive play in the Wii U section, there isn't a thread in the 3DS section. Therefore, I would like to ask to try to direct discussion and talking points away from the Wii U version and more toward the 3DS version. How would custom moves be in the 3DS version? How would it affect the 3DS competitive scene?

 

[ScubaGoomba]

I think the fact that 3DS is portable really makes the "custom" scene a perfect fit. While I would like to see it in WiiU, technical problems could get in the way. For that reason, I think the 3DS should go ultra-liberal with customization. Treat your four specials and stat distribution like Pokémon (which has been mentioned a few times); if you assume everyone can cap out stats and stats aren't randomized, there's really no reason not to include them.

3DS makes this ultra-viable because, as has been mentioned, everyone can come pre-loaded. Imagine how deep the scene could get if counter-picks weren't just a matter of picking character against character, but also having to anticipate and predict what type of Marth is coming your way?

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Test them first. Assume, at least at launch, that they are balanced. Basically, pull a Smogon and ban things piece by piece until it all works well. I think they should be used, but without testing I cannot say for sure whether it's a good idea or not.

 

[CosmicGlitch]

i hope they are in, my Ness is going to be popping

 

[Exaggeratedhonesty]

I think it'd be amazing if custom moves are in the 3DS competitive scene, But the point is kinda moot sense the 3DS competitive scene will die out a bit around the hoildays...

 

[Dropkick JD]

To be fair? I don't think they should be banned at all. Maybe some of them will be OP.

I think it sounds like a fun time. Especially in competitions. A move with a whole different variant? Would be great.

It adds diversity to the game.


As for the "WELL LOLZ DON'T WORRY CAUSE WHEN THE WII U COMES OUT" posts, yeah, strongly doubt it. I might invest in a Wii U later on, but as it stands right now and the foreseeable future? There's no way in hell Wii U is going to have a more active community. Sorry.

 

[Goten21]

To be fair? I don't think they should be banned at all. Maybe some of them will be OP.

I think it sounds like a fun time. Especially in competitions. A move with a whole different variant? Would be great.

It adds diversity to the game.


As for the "WELL LOLZ DON'T WORRY CAUSE WHEN THE WII U COMES OUT" posts, yeah, strongly doubt it. I might invent in a Wii U later on, but as it stands right now and the foreseeable future? There's no way in hell Wii U is going to have a more active community. Sorry.

Ain't dat da truth!!
(I just had to)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I see absolutely no reason to ban custom moves on the 3DS. The Wii U has the whole logistics argument where players have to back out to whatever menu the setup is on, but everyone has their own 3DS for Smash. The issue becomes moot.

Stat changing equipment is something I wouldn't be opposed to, but a lot depends on how the stat changes are generated. IIRC there's a screenshot of the equipment menu from...the Direct? IDK. But it showed a few pieces of identically-named equipment with different +/- amounts attached to them. This suggests to me that an equipment piece has its own associated areas to increase/decrease, and the actual amounts are at least somewhat randomly generated. (I doubt it's truly random so as to avoid drawback-free equipment.) The Smogon argument holds some merit here, where if we treat the 3DS version as its own animal with much more liberal customization options, you can assume the opponent has the optimal setup and if they don't then that's just gravy.