Radical's Radical Kingmaker { ASSASSINS WIN SOME RADICAL TIMES }

[Kaladin]

Regarding structure: I am very strongly against any form of voting. Fite me irl.

Rather, I would propose a courtroom-esque model. The king can ask questions, do whatever, etc, as can other players to each other. However, I would submit that we, the non-kings, should make our case/arguments to the king, in an attempt to persuade him or her. Then, at the end of the day, the king will kill who he thinks is most likely scum -- of course, if you don't suck, the case you made to the king will influence his decision. The advantages to this are numerous, but they all boil down to us getting more information in one way or another.

1. Consider the following scenario: J makes a case to Spak that Rat is scum. The case is logically legitimate/holds good points. If Spak is convinced and kills rat, and rat is scum, we know Spak is not scum, at least day 1, and J gets significant town points. However, if, against a majority opinion and a logical case Spak refuses to kill Rat, and we later learn Rat is scum, then we can tell that Spak is likely scum. This is not the only type of scenario where we gain more information, but y'all are smart. I'm sure you can see others. If you want more examples, let me know.

2. It places a larger emphasis on the King. Most players will be king at one point or another. By treating a given king as a sovereign judge that we must convince, it allows us to better observe logical consistency, or lack thereof, for each king day by day -- putting potential scum kings

3. It reduces the bull****. If a majority vote for someone, the king disagrees and kills a townie, the WIFOM bull**** is gonna hit the fan. I don't want to spell this out because I have a finite amount of time, but just imagine the following day in your heads.

Post about reads/leans to come.

 

[Zalak]

those are some good points. AND CONSIDERING WE CAN'T ACTUALLY CONTROL THE KING ANYWAYS, alright yeah, I can roll with this.

 

[RadicalRat]

J makes a case to Spak that Rat is scum.

As your host and herald... I am very offended.

Modkill: Generic


JK, JK, of course.

The REAL REASON I'm posting is that I would like to add that if anyone decides on a pseudo-voting system, or another form of organization, I will do whatever is in my hostly/heraldic powers to make it a bit more... flavorful. Be that votecounts, BGM supplies, or anything else I or you, the players, can think of.

Back to the game!

 

[Spak]

2. It places a larger emphasis on the King. Most players will be king at one point or another. By treating a given king as a sovereign judge that we must convince, it allows us to better observe logical consistency, or lack thereof, for each king day by day -- putting potential scum kings

 

[Zalak]

Spak Was my defense satisfactory?

 

[Zalak]

I SHOULD PROBABLY LOG OUT FOR THE NIGHT ACTUALLY.

I have homework.

Spak, if I come back here tonight, I want you to execute me.


(but not really. IF YOU GOT A SUPER EARLY EXECUTION, I will want your head)

 

[#HBC | J]

R RadicalRat It may be best to refrain from posting and only post when necessary. Especially considering you are the mod and should be in the background for a game and only post when something important comes up. If the town were to decide on things, that is the town's decision to follow through, not the mod considering it is a Kingmaker game.

Just a friendly tip/advice/notion.

 

[Spak]

Spak Was my defense satisfactory?

Yes, other than one thing:

J asked me what I thought about Maven's inquiry, so I stated the problems I had with it. I never said it was scummy that he didn't like my idea. That's perfectly normal. What I didn't like was the possibility that he was intentionally twisting my words (not very worried about that, cuz I wasn't very clear about what I was suggesting), and the fact that he ignored one of my questions. I'm not saying Maven is scum because he ignored a question, but that's a small problem I had with his inquiry. I WAS ASKED, so I told.

Here you mentioned Maven dodging a question. What was the question, and could you please re-quote it so he could answer it?

I SHOULD PROBABLY LOG OUT FOR THE NIGHT ACTUALLY.

I have homework.

Spak, if I come back here tonight, I want you to execute me.


(but not really. IF YOU GOT A SUPER EARLY EXECUTION, I will want your head)

 

[#HBC | J]

On that note and considering the only thing being drawn is "How to play this game", we really need to move away from talking about that and focus on what other players are saying and doing. Focusing on the set-up when it's pretty clear and easy to get from the OP/Set-up that we are supposed to do.

Almost everything regarding set-up or "what do" posts have been entirely null so far sans the recent stuff with Zalak. People need to stop hiding and come out and play already.

 

[RadicalRat]

R RadicalRat It may be best to refrain from posting and only post when necessary. Especially considering you are the mod and should be in the background for a game and only post when something important comes up. If the town were to decide on things, that is the town's decision to follow through, not the mod considering it is a Kingmaker game.

Just a friendly tip/advice/notion.

Yeah, I just wanted to point out that I'd be happy to assist players in whatever infrastructures they come up with.

The generic joke was just me being too weak to resist.

 

[Kaladin]

Oh most benevolent Spak I would make the case that, based on the information we current possess, Maven is the most likely to be scum.

Lets examine the exchange between Zalak and Maven.

YEAH, sure

I worry that when someone states who they think the baddies are, and they get it right, the assassins will want to kill them before they can become king. trying to figure out if they killed them because they were right, or if they killed them to frame the people the victim voted for would be WIFOMy. basically, it becomes easier for the assassins to kill off threats to them, unless the assassins are agreed to be bad by more than a couple of players.

This is a very impartial and noncommittal post, simply raising a hypothetical con to an announcement of 'if I'm king I'm killing Sneakytako'.

Honestly Zalak I find even talking about possibly...not talking about the assassins to be one of the scummier suggestions I've seen put into the beginning of a game. Like there's no way to play mafia without discussion

Maven89 https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman Very scummy.

I didn't say no discussion. I only meant be vaguer, and don't make it 100% obvious who you would execute as king. Right now, I don't even think it's what we should do, but I think it's something that we might as well consider. Not discussing anything is NOT something I think we should consider.

Again, he is simply bringing things into consideration.

However, while Maven is presenting a scummy word twisting straw man, at this point I would note that Zalak is the second most likely scum with our current information. Just because Maven attacked his argument tellingly does not make it correct. (it is not) Further, as J notes:

However, he didn't say you were explicitly scummy though. You are taking that out of context. He said your suggestion was one of the scummier ones and to be frank, I agree with him that your suggestion leans more of the scummier side of thought.

Explain the aggressiveness though. Go into why you felt almost attacked by Maven? I do not see this at all nor do I see Maven being aggro towards you in any fashion.

Zalak seems rather over defensive, flustered even, uncharacteristically. Maven didn't really do much to him in the way of dangerous accusations. Over defensive Zalak is scum Zalak.

Therefore, Spak, I would request further investigation into/the death of either Zalak or Maven.

-----------

So my question would then be, what is the problem of turning up the pressure and letting someone know they are going to be lynched by the King?

Hypothetical Situation:

If I were to be named King, I would announce 2 slots I am considering to lynch and go from there. I would have those be my nominations of discussion and things would go from there. However, nothing in mafia is ever concrete and someone could change minds.

This type of mafia is starting to make me think it is more about Charisma and Charm over other things will save you more so than naught. It only matters at the end of the day what the King thinks of your slot and then you are dandy, but that changes on a day to day bases.

I have some things I am looking out for in terms of things that will trip some red flags in my mind.

BAD J! BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD! If there were a mafia equivalent of For Glory little macs, it would be this proposition. (I jest, but I do think it's bad)

Under your policy, the king is allowed to set the topics of discussion for the rest of the day, and then the first half of the next day cuz WIFOM bull****. If we get a scum king any later than day 3, and we follow your structure, that's gg.

However, I do agree that the king ought to use his or her position to put the pressure on, hard.

 

[Spak]

Glancing over it now, Generic Noble, but I shall look more thoroughly at the arguments on the morrow. 'Tis late and I must awaken before the sun dawns upon our humble lands. Good night to DGames and to RADICAL KINGMAKER a good night.

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh, I wasn't suggesting a structure: It will be what I do if I am made king.

 

[#HBC | J]

My first impression of this whole Zalak v. Maven thing:

Ya'll reading way too much into it.

 

[Kaladin]

My first impression of this whole Zalak v. Maven thing:

Ya'll reading way too much into it.

I'd be inclined to agree, but it's the only thing that's actually happened. In my above post, note how I stress with the info we have right now-- It'll probably be irrelevant within 5 pages

 

[#HBC | J]

The only thing that stuck out to me so far is that you are calling the situation SvS and that both are reading as scummy to you.

That does not really make much sense and reads as you trying to paint both sides in a negative light while also poking the fire between them.

 

[Kaladin]

The only thing that stuck out to me so far is that you are calling the situation SvS and that both are reading as scummy to you.

That does not really make much sense and reads as you trying to paint both sides in a negative light while also poking the fire between them.

Not SvS. I should have made it clear, it's likely SvT, with Maven as scum. Zalak is a bit of a scum lean. Everyone else is null.

 

[#HBC | J]

*leers*

Let's continue on this. So if Maven were to be lynched and flip town, would you think Zalak was scum and vice-versa?

 

[Kaladin]

*leers*

Let's continue on this. So if Maven were to be lynched and flip town, would you think Zalak was scum and vice-versa?

Well, by then we'd have more information and I probably wouldn't.
But freeze framed right now? Yes.

 

[#HBC | J]

I do not like that at all.

 

[Kaladin]

Let me elaborate: I wouldn't kill either of them right now. They could very well both be town. However, that conflict was the only thing that happened so far, so I looked at it. I want to see how they respond, get discussion rolling, and generally collect reads.

I don't want them dead right now.

 

[Kaladin]

Ninja'd. Why don't you like it?

What if I don't like YOU? So there!

 

[#HBC | J]

I don't like you either for stance wise. I've also just caught you in a lie.

Let me elaborate: I wouldn't kill either of them right now. They could very well both be town. However, that conflict was the only thing that happened so far, so I looked at it. I want to see how they respond, get discussion rolling, and generally collect reads.

I don't want them dead right now.

Therefore, Spak, I would request further investigation into/the death of either Zalak or Maven.

So I'll ask you these questions now:
If you didn't want Maven/Zalak dead, why did you ask Spak to kill them?
If you wanted discussion, why did you not ask either Maven nor Zalak questions regarding their slots, but instead make cases against them?
What reads specifically were you hoping to achieve by your large post?

Your posts are not adding up and in turn are actually making me want to question you further; even more so, when combined with the fact that you are backtracking on what you said on the exact same page we are on. Your jump onto Zalak and Maven looked more like an opportunistic jump at the first opportunity to paint other slots in a poor light.

 

[Kaladin]

I don't like you either for stance wise. I've also just caught you in a lie.





So I'll ask you these questions now:
If you didn't want Maven/Zalak dead, why did you ask Spak to kill them?
If you wanted discussion, why did you not ask either Maven nor Zalak questions regarding their slots, but instead make cases against them?
What reads specifically were you hoping to achieve by your large post?

Your posts are not adding up and in turn are actually making me want to question you further; even more so, when combined with the fact that you are backtracking on what you said on the exact same page we are on. Your jump onto Zalak and Maven looked more like an opportunistic jump at the first opportunity to paint other slots in a poor light.

I don't mind being questioned. I have nothing to hide. The "lie" you caught me in is nothing more but a twisting of words on your part. "Investigation into/the death of" I've played a bit of mafia on this site, and a lot on other sites. It's quite obvious Spak would not kill anyone, off one post from a null slot, on page 5. Language like that, however, serves to apply pressure, without any actual danger of a hasty execution. I made cases against them instead of asking questions for two reasons: first, they're going to respond to the case I made. No reason to question, when I made the post partially to demonstrate what I meant about making cases directly at the king (that being the second reason). I wasn't looking for any reads specifically, other than gauging their respective reactions, and spurring discussion. And, hey, now we're discussing things! For better or for worse, my slot is no longer null, and neither is yours.

 

[Kaladin]

EBWOP first few lines are poorly phrased. Phone typing at 1AM, ugh. Not a twisting of words, so much as a twisting of intentions/failure to see my intentions.

 

[Kaladin]

Going to bed now, anyways.

Yolo tripple posts

And i have to wait 4 seconds before completing this action

 

[#HBC | J]

How am I twisting your words(or as you said "twisting of intentions) if I am directly quoting exactly what you said?

I don't know if I am just disliking your logic as to how you went about doing things or if it is directly scummy. My brain is telling me directly scummy. It makes no sense for you to say "I wasn't looking for reads" and "No reason to question" because that is counter-active to scum-hunting. It is actually the exact opposite of scum-hunting.

It more looks like you were called out on something and are backtracking now to sate my questions and I dislike that as well.

 

[Zalak]

Zalak seems rather over defensive, flustered even, uncharacteristically. Maven didn't really do much to him in the way of dangerous accusations. Over defensive Zalak is scum Zalak.

Is this based on your experiences playing with me, or do you just think being really defensive is generally just a scummy thing to do?

 

[Zalak]

Here you mentioned Maven dodging a question. What was the question, and could you please re-quote it so he could answer it?

What do you think of the risk I mentioned? Do you think it's that big a deal?

He explained his problem with not posting solid stances (kinda), but he didn't state whether or not he thought the dangers of letting the scum players know who we want to execute were a big deal at all.

 

[Zalak]

Zalak seems rather over defensive, flustered even, uncharacteristically. Maven didn't really do much to him in the way of dangerous accusations. Over defensive Zalak is scum Zalak.

WAIT WAIT WAIT BACK UP. You say right here that I am uncharacteristically flustered and defensive, but then you say an over defensive Zalak is a scum Zalak. Generic, I was scum in the one game you played with me. How is it scummy that I'm acting differently than you're used to?

This is a very impartial and noncommittal post, simply raising a hypothetical con to an announcement of 'if I'm king I'm killing Sneakytako'.

Alright, so I get why'd you be bothered if my reads were noncommittal, but why is it a problem that I'm not committing to this weird king maker idea? I understand having a problem with the idea itself, because there are problems with it that might make it more helpful for the assassins. Why should I right away commit to doing this? It's an idea I had just come up with, to combat an issue I had just thought of, and I wanted to hear the opinions of others. I, like many others, am new to the kingmaker setup, and I wanted to figure out the best way to approach it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Maven89 https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman Very scummy.

I don't get it. Where's the strawman? Also, you highlight one of his posts as scummy but you actually gave it a like so this looks like you're just making up a case that you don't actually have a lot of faith in yourself. That's bad. Just because it's early in the game doesn't mean that a 'case' like yours inevitably serves no actual purpose. Scummy things aren't less scummy just because they happen on the first day of playing. If somebody is scummy on the first day it's 100% valid to lynch for that player's lynch on the first day. It's not valid to make a case out of thin air just because you're of the [flawed] opinion that it will be irrelevant over the course of the game. The only reason your case is irrelevant is because there's no real substance to it.

So uh, I have no reason to believe that any of what you posted about Zalak vs Maven reflects your actual opinion.

It's quite obvious Spak would not kill anyone, off one post from a null slot, on page 5. Language like that, however, serves to apply pressure, without any actual danger of a hasty execution.

And you know you can look at Maven's "attack" on Zalak in exactly the same way, right? So you've essentially just admitted that your case doesn't hold any merit. It'd be a double-standard if you argued otherwise.

 

[Kaladin]

I answer yall after school

 

[Maven89]

I'm actually fine with executing Generic right now

 

[Spak]

1. Consider the following scenario: J makes a case to Spak that Rat is scum. The case is logically legitimate/holds good points. If Spak is convinced and kills rat, and rat is scum, we know Spak is not scum, at least day 1, and J gets significant town points. However, if, against a majority opinion and a logical case Spak refuses to kill Rat, and we later learn Rat is scum, then we can tell that Spak is likely scum. This is not the only type of scenario where we gain more information, but y'all are smart. I'm sure you can see others. If you want more examples, let me know..

Also, I'm not gonna follow this reasoning for a town-confirm scum killing. That would make scum hammers a surefire town confirm, which I'm not comfortable with as it would make the game way easier to win for scum if they ever get King late-game.

Still want to hear from Orbo.

 

[Spak]

I'm actually fine with executing Generic right now

I don't want to preemptively end day, and not giving him a chance to defend himself wouldn't be a fair trial.

 

[Kaladin]

Holy crap, I just got rekt by homework. R RadicalRat I need to be modkilled or replaced. No way in hell I can be active for the next week or so.

 

[RadicalRat]

Holy crap, I just got rekt by homework. R RadicalRat I need to be modkilled or replaced. No way in hell I can be active for the next week or so.

Just the next week? You'd only miss D1/N1, are you sure you want out?

 

[Kaladin]

Just the next week? You'd only miss D1/N1, are you sure you want out?

I mean, it'd be rather irresponsible to miss an entire day.

 

[Orboknown]

Also, I'm not gonna follow this reasoning for a town-confirm scum killing. That would make scum hammers a surefire town confirm, which I'm not comfortable with as it would make the game way easier to win for scum if they ever get King late-game.

Still want to hear from Orbo.

About what?

 

[Spak]

About what?

I just want to hear more opinions from you about what's going on in general; you tend to be a bit more quiet right now than in Gheb's game. Sang said he's busy at the moment, but you haven't stated any reasons to be fairly inactive (even though there are a lot of things to comment on thus far).

In addition, I completely forgot Koops existed. Koops, where you at?