R.O.B. Matchup Analysis #8 - Rosalina and Luma

[GwJ]

In addition to our usually stuff, post some videos if you have 'em.

 

[FalKoopa]

It's nigh impossible to recover low in this match-up. Rosalina will send her luma to the ledge and keep d-tilting.

 

[Crome]

I haven't really fought any competent RosaLuma players, but I think ROB would be at a disadvantage. Luma can just wall gyro for days. We still have laser and arm rotor, but I don't think that is enough to save the match up.

 

[zephyrnereus]

it's definitely in rosa's favor, but if you position yourself correctly during the battle you can constantly keep luma out of the game, which really helps out in the matchup.

 

[PUK]

It's not that hard given the fact that we can throw the luma away: without luma Rosa lacks ko power and défensive options. It's not good though, but close to even.
Avoid halberd, but Town and city is OK. Lylat is funny to because Rosa recovery is crappy there.

 

[Mister Eric]

45:55 Rosa.
I'll post MU notes when I can.

 

[Syde7]

If both players optimize the use of their character (in Rosa's case... maximizing Luma's potential)... I see it as 40:60, Rosalina & Luma's favor. If there wasn't the option to get rid of Luma briefly... I'd put it at 70:30, lol.

Match Up Notes:

Luma Present:

• Very difficult to win neutral with Luma present. ROB's size, weight, and overall speed (in terms of aerial mobility/speed, ground speed, and frame+hitbox data on his attacks) just doesn't stack up well at all against Rosa when Luma is around.

• Hard to use projectiles as a gateway in, as well. I've found success in just letting her GP the gyro at just outside of Luma range, popping her with a laser for brief stun and capitalize, or just letting Luma eat a gyro and then regrab it for some throws/gyro shenanigans/extraneous mix-ups. But, the returns on the strat diminishes quickly.

• Outside of your low percent set-ups & follow ups ([D-tilt -> (Trip) ->] U-Throw -> U-air, N-air -> U-tilt -> U-tilt -> U-air, falling U-air -> Tilt/Grab/etc; and even these aren't super guaranteed, it feels like), its really hard to pursue after a successful set-up, especially in the air as long as Luma is around. Rosa will either force you to shield with a Luma Recall + Attack, or straight out hit you on her Recall if you don't shield/evade, resulting in you losing your safe follow up window (the latter of which now switching you from offense to defense).

• Any Rosa who can Lunar Land with a decent success rate will also give you loads of trouble. She can throw out virtually lagless anti-approach aerials with Luma, and immediately act as Rosalina out of the brief desync. Not to mention, in the event she wants to approach or force the issue, the Lunar Land gives her exceedingly safe options to do so.
  
  
  
• Rosalina absolutely decimates ROB in the air... even harder than what he is accustomed to. Especially if Luma is present. The absurd vertical reach of Rosalina U-air / Luma U-air allows her to pressure from below even more safely. Couple that with the added horizontal space occupied by Luma and you're going to have a tough time getting down. If you're on BF or even Lylat, hang it up as she has offensive options with Luma to cover virtually every single one of your landing options. You wind up 50/50 scenarios, but the sheer amount of option coverage makes the 50/50 much easier for Rosa.
  
  Sure, you can B-reverse/Wavebounce a gyro cancel (away from Luma's part of the Uair), but I believe a B-air from Rosa, or possibly even an N-air (since its hitbox starts at the back) can most likely still reach. Especially if you have already exhausted your 2nd jump.
  
  Forward air or a RAR'd B-air by her beats out N-air in terms of speed, and I believe is comparable to (if not superior to) F-air.
  
  D-air out range's ROBs U-air. You'll have to do some solid baiting out of an airdodge or an aerial or something of that nature to secure a U-air follow up or KO. Not that you don't have to do that anyway against most chars... but the sheer range of her D-air requires you to read the action a bit earlier than normal in order to compensate for the distance you have to close.
  
  
  
• If you get stuck on the ledge... you are going to have a bad time. Rosalina w/ Luma present has more options than you can shake a stick at. I could write an essay on all the stuff she can do when an opponent is hanging on the ledge, or standing at the edge of the stage: All kinds of Luma coverage w/ D/F-Tilts, smashes, jabs, and even the threat of a Luma Shot, not to mention the threat of a grab in the event you shield any of these. All of these options, when utilizing a well-spaced (not even perfectly spaced) Luma force you to make choices... almost all of which she will have an answer for.
  
  
  
• In an edgeguard situation, forget about consistently going low. D-air is real, with or without Luma... either as a flat out spike/ko, or a harassment move to burn fuel. Luma shot will cut you off at the pass as you descend from above to below the stage (even if you airdodge it, she's forced you into a bad position, can recall Luma, and set up for further edgeguarding). Wanna recover from the side? Luma shot, RAR or standard N-air will have you covered (for harassment), or B-air (for a potential KO). But, going high isn't an amazing bet either... considering the options I discussed previously.
  
  Getting out of an edgeguard situation boils down to just flat out outplaying/outsmarting your opponent. Of course, this is true for any edgeguard situation in any MU, but this is one of those MU's where the opponent (Rosalina), as a character, simply has more/better options to defend the edge than ROB has to get back onto it.

Luma KO'd:

• Obviously, getting Luma out of the way is the key here. I'd love to hear the most effective ways other people have found to do so. The matchup is much easier w/o Luma floating around, but with that being said... just because Luma is gone doesn't make this a breeze. Rosalina still has enough tools to pose a hassle... at least long enough until Luma respawns.
  
  
  
• Rosalina's roll is hard as heck to read due to her disappearing. Not to mention, the length/duration of the roll doesn't seem to be conducive to ROB being able to effectively punish them (I'd have to do some more analysis about the length, speed, etc vs ROB's options like SH->Aerial, Tilts, Smashes, and Laser/Gyro to be certain... so this is more or less what it FEELS like.)
  
  
  
• Also, just because Luma is gone doesn't change the inherent properties of her hitboxes and their frame speeds. Most of her attacks are still sufficient to poke/prod/interrupt/otherwise generally harass ROB. However, its much easier to get your Bread & Butter combos, conversions of set-ups, and overall follow ups with Luma gone.

Overall, this is an uphill climb. As I said, I give it a 60:40, Rosa's favor. In order to make it work, you have to play patient, remain on an even keel/not get frustrated at the nuisance that is Luma. You have to be very focused, keeping an eye out on Luma almost as much as the Rosalina player does. Due to how Sm4sh is designed, you have to consistently win the neutral game, over and over throughout the match. This is especially true vs. Rosalina due to her ability to interrupt your follow ups w/ Luma (thus potentially putting her on offense and you in a terrible position... either above Rosa, or off-stage, or on the ledge).

Throw customs into the mix and ROB can recover a BIT better due to his increased mobility. But, Rosa has the option to use the long-distance shooting starbits. This allows her to outcamp/outzone ROB (Shooting Starbits + Luma placed about slightly over 1/2 max distance) makes getting in on her next to impossible. Especially on a smaller stage such as BF. Unfortunately, due to the range and such on the above combination... that forces ROB near the ledge... where Rosa can methodically work her way up & pin ROB to the ledge... where she has TONS of options (discussed previously).


I know this write-up isnt so much about what ROB can/should do in this MU, and is more about what Rosa is capable of... but I feel that knowing the former is half the battle. I'll let someone write up

 

[Edward Arima]

Rosalina & Luma have such a ridiculous advantage against R.O.B. it's not even funny. I swear her priority is broken, because when she landed in the ground after performing her Dair, I was trying to use arm rotor since she was basically open, but for some reason, the attack did touch her hurtbox, but she did not get hurt at all. Keep in mind, Luma wasn't even in the field at the time. Either arm rotor is a crappy move(obviously lol unless you reflect things), or Rosalina's priority is ridiculous.

Rosa can juggle R.O.B. to no end with her disjointed up air. You can almost never come back to the stage since Rosalina and Luma will just wall you out with the multi-jab. If I recover from above the stage, I'll most likely be juggled. If I'm near the ledge, I can snipe with the laser, but I'm scared of landing back on the stage because because of u-air and u-smash. She is just not fun to deal with, and she just makes Smash 4 less fun for me.

Can someone help me with the MU? I'm desperate for help since fighting this character is really frustrating.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

Rosalina & Luma have such a ridiculous advantage against R.O.B. it's not even funny. I swear her priority is broken, because when she landed in the ground after performing her Dair, I was trying to use arm rotor since she was basically open, but for some reason, the attack did touch her hurtbox, but she did not get hurt at all. Keep in mind, Luma wasn't even in the field at the time. Either arm rotor is a crappy move(obviously lol unless you reflect things), or Rosalina's priority is ridiculous.

Rosa can juggle R.O.B. to no end with her disjointed up air. You can almost never come back to the stage since Rosalina and Luma will just wall you out with the multi-jab. If I recover from above the stage, I'll most likely be juggled. If I'm near the ledge, I can snipe with the laser, but I'm scared of landing back on the stage because because of u-air and u-smash. She is just not fun to deal with, and she just makes Smash 4 less fun for me.

Can someone help me with the MU? I'm desperate for help since fighting this character is really frustrating.

Arm Rotor is a crappy move, but that does sound like bull****. I've never experienced anything like that before, however.

The key to dealing with her is to keep her away and get luma away from her. Without customs, she doesn't have anything reliable to deal with long range, and with customs, you can shorthop-airdodge the star bits or just use platforms to get around them, and luma warp has a set distance, so she can't do much at long range. Gyros and f-air can easily shake Luma off her, and you can knock it offstage if Rosa doesn't punish you first. That's when Rosa's at the most vulnerable. You want to press that advantage as far as it will go. Keep in mind that she still is a force to be reckoned with even without Luma. Don't forget, you don't have to kill Luma to bring it out of action. Putting it in hitstun for just a second could help you get follow-ups on her.
Don't forget that she can use gravitational pull against gyros and laser. It's very annoying to deal with, but if you're close enough, it can be punished as it does have some endlag, and Rosa's juggling and gimping capabilities aren't nearly as good while she's holding a gyro. If you know anything about gyro cancelling, you can bait the move out, but it's an advanced technique that I can't consistently do.
The key to landing safely against her (this is a general tip for ROB rather than a Rosa-specific tip, but you asked about it) are gyros. When you're holding a gyro, you can drop it down, which could hurt Rosa if she's standing on the ground, and it could block her path to you if she isn't right there. You can also fire one off, which when aimed right, will go right into her. She'll probably shield or Gravitational pull it, but that will give you enough time to fastfall back down onto the stage, and if it hurts her, that's just an added bonus.
With the up-air strings, there isn't much I can help you with. You need to learn the opponents patterns and read when they're going to do it, then jump or airdodge out of it. We don't have any tools to really deal with it, unfortunately, as we have no downward-pointing aerials that outrange her up-air, and gyros will just be knocked away. Our large hurtbox and floatiness doesn't help with that either.

 

[Pazx]

I'd like to see more people discuss how to get rid of Luma because that is key to the matchup.

 

[1FC0]

I'd like to see more people discuss how to get rid of Luma because that is key to the matchup.

Attack it.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

Attack it.

With gyros.

 

[zephyrnereus]

fully charged laser, dash attack, side tilt, Fair, and side B put luma in a knockback state. do it by the edge and luma will fall off.

 

[alexthepony]

I'd like to see more people discuss how to get rid of Luma because that is key to the matchup.

agreed, that all you really need to know, don't need to waste time with gravational pul bait, her obvious combos, etc. with luma, rosa has few offense options

 

[DJ3DS]

This may be resurrecting a thread from the dead here but has anyone else tried using Back Air more in this matchup?

Specifically, I really enjoy approaching in this match up with a SH B-Air. It's slow so easily shieldable on reaction - but Luma obviously can't shield it. It's strong enough to send Luma into tumble, and with the range and momentum boost combined it seems to be capable of poking Luma whilst Rosa is in shield whilst being difficult (maybe impossible, I don't know the data well enough) to punish.

Since I tried doing this I have found Luma consistently easier to kill and thus the MU a whole lot easier. I don't know if it's as good as it feels - neither myself nor the Rosalina players I play are anywhere near top level - but I think it's something that deserves consideration/labbing to see.

 

[Crome]

SH AC Bair to kill Luma is definitely a real and viable option - it does, however, get predictable. A good rosa could even grab you before the bair starts.

On a similar note: Side B is god like in this match up. Vs. Rosa is the only time I've done approaching side b multiple times on purpose in a match and felt like I was actually accomplishing something. Anytime Rosa is shielding near a ledge, that's a dead Luma.

 

[Phanton404]

45:55 Rosa.
I'll post MU notes when I can.

And he never did *snif*

 

[Mister Eric]

And he never did *snif*

I wish I had too lmao. Idk what to do in neutral now vs her since I haven't played against her in so long.


Things I do know:
Nair, dashattack, and ftilt all work wonders vs Luma. You can nair combo Luma to her doom.
Don't fair Luma off the stage ever. You will save her if you do. Fair doesn't knock her back. It kind of...wakes her up.

Landing sucks. Learn to B-reverse if you don't know how. I find fastfalling, then do a poorly timed b-reverse gyro cancel, so that instead of gyro cancelling, you'll airdodge. This is to be done if she is chasing you in the air. If the Rosa is smart, she will just shadow your landing from the ground by walking and then up tilt every option you have except maybe dair (as a once-a-blue-moon mixup).

That's all I got for now.