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Also guys, whats your stand vs Luigi? I go destroyed vs a Luigi last wekk, i played like never played before in that tournament and i lost vs a Luigi, i dunno what i am supposed to do in that matchup:
I think you could have won the first game. You made like two major mistakes. And why would you CP a Fox to PS2? That's his best stage, other than maybe Yoshi's Story.
Also guys, whats your stand vs Luigi? I go destroyed vs a Luigi last wekk, i played like never played before in that tournament and i lost vs a Luigi, i dunno what i am supposed to do in that matchup:
He hates me for some reason. He's really mad that that got put in the video without him knowing about it (and I didn't submit it, fyi, our main TO did). He also just moved, so I won't get to play him anymore.
I think you could have won the first game. You made like two major mistakes. And why would you CP a Fox to PS2? That's his best stage, other than maybe Yoshi's Story.
Luigi's annoying. Impossible to edgeguard and seems to beat a lot of stuff in neutral.
He hates me for some reason. He's really mad that that got put in the video without him knowing about it (and I didn't submit it, fyi, our main TO did). He also just moved, so I won't get to play him anymore.
Yeah i could have have won that match its just, Dark is too good , he knows exactly what to do and how to pressure, every stock i got comboed for at least, 55% each. (I coulñd have won game too if instead of a 1, a 5 or 7 (or even 3 with he reverse hitbox would have come out).
Also, i was salty XDDDD
I placed third in that tournamets, i am really struggling vs the Marios Bros.
Yo, I've been playing G&W for a bit as my main and I got a tournament tomorrow. Any quick tips on how to succeed or at least not get completely bodied?
It lasts longer depending on how high their % is. If they mash buttons, they'll get out sooner. Keep in mind that any fire attacks will unfreeze them, like pan hit and forward smash.
The base duration for 8's freeze is actually set and is exactly the same no matter what % the enemy is at. Mashing reduces the duration but it becomes less effective at higher %s, which effectively makes it last longer as % rises. Most opponents who do not resist at all will be frozen for around three and a half seconds, regardless of %.
This is due to a quirk of the freezing effect; it divides all horizontal velocity by a significant margin but does nothing about vertical velocity until after entering the frozen status (i.e. the attack doing the freezing can send up, but anything after that is weakened). Also, the base duration of the freeze is solely reliant on and rises proportionally with the projected sending velocity of the attack that initiated the freeze. In Melee, getting hit by a Freezie (as an example) carries some decent scaling knockback in addition to applying the freeze effect, so getting hit by one while at a high % means flying almost straight upwards into a star-KO. It also can't be mashed out of in time since the freeze duration is very long due to characters at higher %s being sent at higher velocities. It looks really silly.
This was changed in Brawl, but not in the way you would expect. Instead of changing the rules for being frozen, all attacks that could freeze had their scaling knockback either removed or lowered to insignificant values. As a result, it's much harder to kill off of the top with a freezing attack.
Mr. Game & Watch's Judge [8] has no scaling knockback as a result of this change. Therefore, the only other things that can affect its sending velocity are:
1. Judge [8]'s base knockback
2. Stale-move negation
3. The target's weight and fallspeed
Stale-move negation and enemy weight/fallspeed are always changing from game to game, which is why I can't give a definitive answer about the exact duration of the freeze. Hitstun and button-mashing are the only other things that determine the duration. Hitstun duration is also reliant on sending velocity, so it too is modified by stale-moves and weight/fallspeed. Button-mashing only starts helping once hitstun is over, and that is the only factor in this that is reliant on the enemy's %.
3.5 seconds is not going to be consistent across all characters, and especially not against human opponents. Additionally, any characters that get hit by an 8 during any state of armor (even at very high %s) will not be frozen at all because an 8's base knockback is not enough to get through it. A crouching Bowser cannot be frozen as a result.
Some more fun stuff about the properties of being frozen:
- Frozen targets take half damage from all attacks.
- Subsequent attacks on an already frozen opponent that is on the ground carry no hitlag and always send at the Sakurai angle. In combination with divisive launch resistance, nothing short of a 9 can get them off of the ground at low to middle %s.
- Any fire-based attack immediately ends the frozen state. This attack is not limited to the Sakurai angle however, as it thaws the enemy while immediately putting them into their hitstun animation, locking them in place for a short time during hitlag. The game doesn't register that they are frozen before the sending angle is decided, so the angle is as it normally would be, but the regular divisive launch resistance still applies when deciding the sending velocity.
- Mr. Game & Watch has 5 different ways to thaw his opponent: Fire Attack (F-Smash) tip, Chef pan, Chef large meat, Chef Mini-Meat™, and Judge [6]. The best option he can use out of all of those would be Chef large meat because he can shorthop B-reverse a down angled meat to get it to hit the frozen target and have just enough time to initiate a charged smash attack. Once the meat connects, Mr. Game & Watch just needs to release the smash attack during the hitlag that the meat produces. The opponent will no longer be frozen, so they will take full damage and knockback from the smash attack. This results in a consistent duration that Mr. Game & Watch has control over.
TL:DR
I was curious about this about a month ago and was astounded at how little information I could dig up about the freeze status effect. It took a lot of testing, but this is what I could come up with all on my own. Half of this is probably incorrect, but it's still useful information for planning and theorizing about how to utilize an 8.
For general purposes, you'll have about two and a half seconds before your enemy breaks out of their icy prison. Have a plan for when that time comes and make sure you know how to pull it off. It's impossible to practice this on your own due to the irregular nature of Judge, so you'll just have to play a lot of games until you figure it out.
The base duration for 8's freeze is actually set and is exactly the same no matter what % the enemy is at. Mashing reduces the duration but it becomes less effective at higher %s, which effectively makes it last longer as % rises. Most opponents who do not resist at all will be frozen for around three and a half seconds, regardless of %.
This is due to a quirk of the freezing effect; it divides all horizontal velocity by a significant margin but does nothing about vertical velocity until after entering the frozen status (i.e. the attack doing the freezing can send up, but anything after that is weakened). Also, the base duration of the freeze is solely reliant on and rises proportionally with the projected sending velocity of the attack that initiated the freeze. In Melee, getting hit by a Freezie (as an example) carries some decent scaling knockback in addition to applying the freeze effect, so getting hit by one while at a high % means flying almost straight upwards into a star-KO. It also can't be mashed out of in time since the freeze duration is very long due to characters at higher %s being sent at higher velocities. It looks really silly.
This was changed in Brawl, but not in the way you would expect. Instead of changing the rules for being frozen, all attacks that could freeze had their scaling knockback either removed or lowered to insignificant values. As a result, it's much harder to kill off of the top with a freezing attack.
Mr. Game & Watch's Judge [8] has no scaling knockback as a result of this change. Therefore, the only other things that can affect its sending velocity are:
1. Judge [8]'s base knockback
2. Stale-move negation
3. The target's weight and fallspeed
Stale-move negation and enemy weight/fallspeed are always changing from game to game, which is why I can't give a definitive answer about the exact duration of the freeze. Hitstun and button-mashing are the only other things that determine the duration. Hitstun duration is also reliant on sending velocity, so it too is modified by stale-moves and weight/fallspeed. Button-mashing only starts helping once hitstun is over, and that is the only factor in this that is reliant on the enemy's %.
3.5 seconds is not going to be consistent across all characters, and especially not against human opponents. Additionally, any characters that get hit by an 8 during any state of armor (even at very high %s) will not be frozen at all because an 8's base knockback is not enough to get through it. A crouching Bowser cannot be frozen as a result.
Some more fun stuff about the properties of being frozen:
- Frozen targets take half damage from all attacks.
- Subsequent attacks on an already frozen opponent that is on the ground carry no hitlag and always send at the Sakurai angle. In combination with divisive launch resistance, nothing short of a 9 can get them off of the ground at low to middle %s.
- Any fire-based attack immediately ends the frozen state. This attack is not limited to the Sakurai angle however, as it thaws the enemy while immediately putting them into their hitstun animation, locking them in place for a short time during hitlag. The game doesn't register that they are frozen before the sending angle is decided, so the angle is as it normally would be, but the regular divisive launch resistance still applies when deciding the sending velocity.
- Mr. Game & Watch has 5 different ways to thaw his opponent: Fire Attack (F-Smash) tip, Chef pan, Chef large meat, Chef Mini-Meat™, and Judge [6]. The best option he can use out of all of those would be Chef large meat because he can shorthop B-reverse a down angled meat to get it to hit the frozen target and have just enough time to initiate a charged smash attack. Once the meat connects, Mr. Game & Watch just needs to release the smash attack during the hitlag that the meat produces. The opponent will no longer be frozen, so they will take full damage and knockback from the smash attack. This results in a consistent duration that Mr. Game & Watch has control over.
TL:DR
I was curious about this about a month ago and was astounded at how little information I could dig up about the freeze status effect. It took a lot of testing, but this is what I could come up with all on my own. Half of this is probably incorrect, but it's still useful information for planning and theorizing about how to utilize an 8.
For general purposes, you'll have about two and a half seconds before your enemy breaks out of their icy prison. Have a plan for when that time comes and make sure you know how to pull it off. It's impossible to practice this on your own due to the irregular nature of Judge, so you'll just have to play a lot of games until you figure it out.
The base duration for 8's freeze is actually set and is exactly the same no matter what % the enemy is at. Mashing reduces the duration but it becomes less effective at higher %s, which effectively makes it last longer as % rises. Most opponents who do not resist at all will be frozen for around three and a half seconds, regardless of %.
This is due to a quirk of the freezing effect; it divides all horizontal velocity by a significant margin but does nothing about vertical velocity until after entering the frozen status (i.e. the attack doing the freezing can send up, but anything after that is weakened). Also, the base duration of the freeze is solely reliant on and rises proportionally with the projected sending velocity of the attack that initiated the freeze. In Melee, getting hit by a Freezie (as an example) carries some decent scaling knockback in addition to applying the freeze effect, so getting hit by one while at a high % means flying almost straight upwards into a star-KO. It also can't be mashed out of in time since the freeze duration is very long due to characters at higher %s being sent at higher velocities. It looks really silly.
This was changed in Brawl, but not in the way you would expect. Instead of changing the rules for being frozen, all attacks that could freeze had their scaling knockback either removed or lowered to insignificant values. As a result, it's much harder to kill off of the top with a freezing attack.
Mr. Game & Watch's Judge [8] has no scaling knockback as a result of this change. Therefore, the only other things that can affect its sending velocity are:
1. Judge [8]'s base knockback
2. Stale-move negation
3. The target's weight and fallspeed
Stale-move negation and enemy weight/fallspeed are always changing from game to game, which is why I can't give a definitive answer about the exact duration of the freeze. Hitstun and button-mashing are the only other things that determine the duration. Hitstun duration is also reliant on sending velocity, so it too is modified by stale-moves and weight/fallspeed. Button-mashing only starts helping once hitstun is over, and that is the only factor in this that is reliant on the enemy's %.
3.5 seconds is not going to be consistent across all characters, and especially not against human opponents. Additionally, any characters that get hit by an 8 during any state of armor (even at very high %s) will not be frozen at all because an 8's base knockback is not enough to get through it. A crouching Bowser cannot be frozen as a result.
Some more fun stuff about the properties of being frozen:
- Frozen targets take half damage from all attacks.
- Subsequent attacks on an already frozen opponent that is on the ground carry no hitlag and always send at the Sakurai angle. In combination with divisive launch resistance, nothing short of a 9 can get them off of the ground at low to middle %s.
- Any fire-based attack immediately ends the frozen state. This attack is not limited to the Sakurai angle however, as it thaws the enemy while immediately putting them into their hitstun animation, locking them in place for a short time during hitlag. The game doesn't register that they are frozen before the sending angle is decided, so the angle is as it normally would be, but the regular divisive launch resistance still applies when deciding the sending velocity.
- Mr. Game & Watch has 5 different ways to thaw his opponent: Fire Attack (F-Smash) tip, Chef pan, Chef large meat, Chef Mini-Meat™, and Judge [6]. The best option he can use out of all of those would be Chef large meat because he can shorthop B-reverse a down angled meat to get it to hit the frozen target and have just enough time to initiate a charged smash attack. Once the meat connects, Mr. Game & Watch just needs to release the smash attack during the hitlag that the meat produces. The opponent will no longer be frozen, so they will take full damage and knockback from the smash attack. This results in a consistent duration that Mr. Game & Watch has control over.
TL:DR
I was curious about this about a month ago and was astounded at how little information I could dig up about the freeze status effect. It took a lot of testing, but this is what I could come up with all on my own. Half of this is probably incorrect, but it's still useful information for planning and theorizing about how to utilize an 8.
For general purposes, you'll have about two and a half seconds before your enemy breaks out of their icy prison. Have a plan for when that time comes and make sure you know how to pull it off. It's impossible to practice this on your own due to the irregular nature of Judge, so you'll just have to play a lot of games until you figure it out.
I'm curious, has anyone been making use of the land-cancelled cast iron? I've been doing it as an off-the-ledge option. Drop down, jump up, chef. If they shield it I can grab immediately, or I dtilt if they try and grab first, or, well, whatever I want.
I've only been able to use this with... less than optimal players as I'm stuck in my hometown for a while so I'm unsure if it'd work with more adept players.
I'm curious, has anyone been making use of the land-cancelled cast iron? I've been doing it as an off-the-ledge option. Drop down, jump up, chef. If they shield it I can grab immediately, or I dtilt if they try and grab first, or, well, whatever I want.
I've only been able to use this with... less than optimal players as I'm stuck in my hometown for a while so I'm unsure if it'd work with more adept players.
I belieeeeve it's +3 when done perfectly, but don't quote me on that. It's definitely really solid for pressure, the issue is getting that close with G&W in the first place.
I belieeeeve it's +3 when done perfectly, but don't quote me on that. It's definitely really solid for pressure, the issue is getting that close with G&W in the first place.
True, it's not a go-to option, but given certain spacing against certain characters in certain situations, we might be able to work it into our game as a solid approach option, or at least a mixup.
Come to think of it, I remember trying it out when 3.5 first came out, and from what I remember I think a hit with SHFF pan combos into dtilt.
Going by debug mode's hitstun frames, I think a JC grab is guaranteed after landing with Chef's pan hit at low percentages. Almost looks like Fox's waveshine grab, haha. It also deals a whopping 14% if the big meat hits too. There's also the legendary Chef-to-DACUS that's completely situational.
True, it's not a go-to option, but given certain spacing against certain characters in certain situations, we might be able to work it into our game as a solid approach option, or at least a mixup.
.
I still can't DACUS consistently, even with the extra frame. Of course, I've also hardly practiced PM since 3.5 came out because of Smash 4, so that could be the problem.
This may sound alittle strage of a combo, but this is something i do that i think can he very versatile towards an unaware opponent.
If i have someone in a grab i first would do a down throw. If i'm lucky i can do it again if my opponent didn't tech. After the second down throw i would do a wavedash towards him and immediately initiate a pivot grab to hopefully finish him off .
So basically is this:
Grab>D throw>Jab reset>WaveDash to his back>pivot grab
What do you guys think? I have been doing this for sometime and i think it can work if done correctly to make a sick throw game.
This may sound alittle strage of a combo, but this is something i do that i think can he very versatile towards an unaware opponent.
If i have someone in a grab i first would do a down throw. If i'm lucky i can do it again if my opponent didn't tech. After the second down throw i would do a wavedash towards him and immediately initiate a pivot grab to hopefully finish him off .
So basically is this:
Grab>D throw>Jab reset>WaveDash to his back>pivot grab
What do you guys think? I have been doing this for sometime and i think it can work if done correctly to make a sick throw game.
Yo, I'm going to paragon this weekend and have been practicing non stop but need some advice.
Me and a friend have been going even in the GnW fox mu, but now he usually barely beats me. I don't know what I'm doing wrong besides using up b a bit too much, and not doing enough follow ups after a chain grab. Could any of you give me advice based on this? (This is netplay, with 60ms of input delay)
Yo, I'm going to paragon this weekend and have been practicing non stop but need some advice.
Me and a friend have been going even in the GnW fox mu, but now he usually barely beats me. I don't know what I'm doing wrong besides using up b a bit too much, and not doing enough follow ups after a chain grab. Could any of you give me advice based on this? (This is netplay, with 60ms of input delay)
Your movement is so crisp. You missed a good gimp opportunity at 1:34 but it looks like you tried to run off fair, which is what I would have expected. Something else to think about is that you shouldn't be coming down with aerials unless you know for a fact you can hit them. You got punished a few times for blindly throwing out dair, which I easily find myself doing as well >.<
You lost 3 stocks to fox's up air. Something you can work on to remedy that is using SDI on the first hit of it to avoid the second. It's really important to avoid that uair as much as possible because it kills so damn early.
On a side note, if you chaingrab spacies to the edge of the stage, you can grab release -> sour fair or dair meteor and that will kill them at 0%.
That's all I really have for now. If I think of more, I'll let you know. I wish you the best of luck at Paragon! Go hard and represent the Game & Watch community.
Yo, I'm going to paragon this weekend and have been practicing non stop but need some advice.
Me and a friend have been going even in the GnW fox mu, but now he usually barely beats me. I don't know what I'm doing wrong besides using up b a bit too much, and not doing enough follow ups after a chain grab. Could any of you give me advice based on this? (This is netplay, with 60ms of input delay)
You had a really good ground game going for the first half of the game but you ended up in a bit of a reckless chase mode once the Fox spent more time on the platforms and not getting good hits threw your movement off. I think you chose to use Chef too often whenever there was a bit of space between you and the Fox and you could have mixed up with more substantial hitboxes, like bairs meeting him from the air instead of falling Chefs or fullhop nairs when he was on a platform.
Wish I could see your offstage game. Maybe you weren't thinking about looking for opportunities to get Fox offstage with horizontal knockback moves like nair or ftilt or just gaining positional advantage by fthrow chaingrabbing towards the edge.
Props to you for rarely getting pressured into shielding/not moving. The way the Fox moved to take your last stock is usually how my games against Fox go.
You also don't seem to DI his upthrow very well. I mean, chances are fox will still get you with the upthrow->upair combo, but you always go straight up which makes it mad easy. Though, like Black Bean said, adding in some smash DI is a good idea too.
You almost always come down with a dair when you're up high. I do the same thing constantly, but plenty of characters are fast enough to punish it, or just be creative to get around it. I'd recommend watching some of Nintendude's play vs Cyrain at Civil War (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtgDPTdA1XA). He'll mix up coming straight down with the dair with stalling with bucket and dropping a bair or something. Just adding a few more mixups would be nice. You seem to do your best decending when you mess with your momentum and movement with chef, so perhaps just more of that.
This happened like, twice, but you also threw out bucket a little recklessly. Fox is so fast and can punish your vulnerability so hard it can be really dangerous. You did it once and got a single notch of the bucket and then took 30 percent and got put in an uncomfortable position for it. Just something to keep in mind.
Everything else seemed really quite good. Your chaingrabs and upair combos were pretty on point and with a little work on ending them (perhaps a fastfall to up-b to parachute or fair?) you'll be eating all kinds of players for breakfast in no time. I hope I don't seem too critical as that isn't my intention, you'll do our community proud. ^-^
Those 3D jerks think they're so cool because they have one more dimension than us? What jerks. Go show them what for!
What is with your aerials on shield? I always seem to eat a landing hitbox or dtilt if I try an oos option, is it just strict timing to do anything vs them?
What is with your aerials on shield? I always seem to eat a landing hitbox or dtilt if I try an oos option, is it just strict timing to do anything vs them?
Yeah, pretty much all of you guys haha. GW is so interesting lol, but a pain to learn MU wise. So essentially just stick to the shield for longer if I'm in that position?
Pretty much. D-Air, Up-Air and B-Air all have landing hitboxes for just a single frame the moment G&W touches the ground. He's stuck in landing lag after that, which makes him extremely vulnerable to grabs.
D-Air's landing hitbox is a bit of a tough one because it pokes shields through the feet area like a D-Tilt, so you might get hit out of it without a chance to grab. You probably already shielded the initial D-Air hit so just angle your shield downwards and you're good to go.
D-Tilt is very safe against those who have trouble sweetspotting the ledge. The angle it sends at is deadly when used on an aerial opponent. You can also drop down with a N-Air when the opponent is trying to recover vertically.
Against opponents with really good vertical recoveries (G&W, Mewtwo, Fox and several others) or against vertical tethers (Ivysaur, ZSS) you can drop down with a F-Air and clip them with the flub hitbox. The reason this works is because the knockback of a flubbed F-Air is weak enough to make the apex of their trajectory from the ensuing hit come up almost immediately, so they fall even lower and can't do anything about it because they're in hitstun. Once you clip them you can act immediately because the hitbox stays out all the way to the end of the move, which lets you recover safely. You also won't need to worry about your Up-B hitting them up as you recover (unless they DI really well AND they're really floaty AND at moderately high %) because the F-Air flub also knocks them away from you a bit in the process.
Dakpo uses weak F-Air frequently. Here's an instance of him using it to push Denti's Ivysaur juuuust past the point of recovery:
The pan hit of Neutral-B is a semi-spike with high base knockback, which makes it a powerful option against those who try to recover horizontally. It can potentially gimp any character at any %, much like a Sheik F-Air (it doesn't scale as well, but I think that's pretty fair since it also fires projectiles). The hitbox only lasts for a single frame (frame 8), so this can be quite hard to land. It appears at the same time as the projectile does (when the pan flicks upwards), but the hitbox is actually well below where the pan is. Try to hit them with the pan as it appears on the startup frames of the move; it serves as a good visual guideline to where the hitbox actually is. Make sure to hit your opponent while from above or else the projectile that appears will take priority over the semi-spike hit and just send them as if they were hit by that instead. They both still add up to the usual damage, however.
Speaking of the pan and its simultaneous projectile, Neutral-B is very safe on shield and can pressure extremely hard. Since Neutral-B also land-cancels you can act before your opponent gets out of shieldstun. It does lots of shield damage too, so D-Tilt can usually poke through after a successful double-panslam.
