Project M Social Thread Gold

[Frakture]

Yes it does lol. It's a 7 frame window btw. Where are you even getting your information lmao

Debug mode. I just tested it. You are right about the 7 frame window though. I heard 6 somewhere but I guess it was wrong.

 

[Bleck]

bleck is a elitist casual

you've somehow taken the idea of calling someone "a casual" and made it even more silly and meaningless

Melee has only grown over the past two years despite having at times dumb mechanics that were fixed up in PM.

I think the thing to keep in mind on that front is that l-canceling is in Melee because we can't take it out, whereas l-canceling is in PM because [???]. Whether or not l-canceling (or anything else endemic to Melee) is a bad mechanic in Melee doesn't matter, 'cause Melee is what it is - but PM by nature is highly changeable, and as such there should be a good reason for anything to remain that way it is if it could be better.

Define broken.

Something that's impossible to meaningfully balance around, regardless of its efficacy as a mechanic, and subsequently warps the metagame and subsequent efforts at balance.

For example, in Melee, Fox' up smash is overpowered (you can tune down the damage/knockback/knockback scaling to more reasonable levels), while the shine is broken (a cancelable 1-frame attack that links infinitely into itself and literally anything else - it's impossible to balance without fundamentally changing how it functions, such as reducing the start up time or making it so you can't jump out of it, both of which would change how one plays as Fox immensely).

If they don't want to put in the effort, than they most likely aren't making strides in the meta either.

So what you're saying is that how other people feel about the game doesn't matter if they aren't good at it?

Gee, I wonder why Nintendo would want to avoid people like you.

 

[Broccoli]

Because somehow advanced ledge options (ledgedashing, haxdashing, wallteching), advanced stage maneuvers (edge canceling, wavelanding, NIL setups, shield dropping), and the bevy of character specific tech (especially new options available with RAR, DACUS, and B-reversals) aren't a good way of showing this and aren't far greater contributions to the game than L-canceling is? Do you see the entire problem with your argument yet?

Did I ever dismiss those other techniques? Could you quote me where I dismissed them? #strawman

You accuse me of using anecdotal evidence and you provide no such examples of pro players even defending it in this case. And funny enough, how about what this guy has to say about it?

PPMD is bad at Melee Kappa. Even so, he makes a statement about how he feels about it, at no point did he ever say it shouldn't be in the game or add auto-cancelling instead. He uses it as a testament to the difficult learning curve of the smash games, something that I think should not be altered, no matter how small the change

Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It's an arbitrary input easily replaced by just cutting landing lag in half. 99% of other tech in the game cannot be replaced or simplified in such a way that doesn't cut back options.

So, because it is easily simplified, it should be so? That's your opinion I suppose.

You sound like an art major, or maybe philosophy? Something occupy-wallstreet-esque.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Arguing on the Internet, let alone with someone as confrontational and exacting as Bleck... No one ever chooses to learn.
Sigh.

Grab popcorn, folks.

 

[Broccoli]

So what you're saying is that how other people feel about the game doesn't matter if they aren't good at it?

Gee, I wonder why Nintendo would want to avoid people like you.

Negative my good sir. You're asking for the developers to remove a mechanic of a game that could hold people back, when they should just put in the effort and git gud. You're asking for a free ticket of sorts, you want things done for you.

In a previous post I stated that if people do not want to put in the effort to get better, they don't have to, they can continue playing the game as they do.

"Mommy, the big man is good at the game and I'm not, I want the game to be easier so I can be good too".

Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better.

You're another art major right? Kappa

 

[SpiderMad]

Debug mode. I just tested it. You are right about the 7 frame window though. I heard 6 somewhere but I guess it was wrong.

May this be a PM vs Melee difference then with the L-cancel hitlag thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJG-tvT86WU

The L-cancel window keeps ticking down each frame after the press regardless of being/entering Hitlag from Kadano's video.

 

[GP&B]

Did I ever dismiss those other techniques? Could you quote me where I dismissed them? #strawman

You missed my point entirely. I'm saying that everything else works as an effective milestone of progress while simultaneously providing you with new options to learn. But nice to show that you aren't willing to read and are also willing to incorrectly use strawman.

PPMD is bad at Melee Kappa. Even so, he makes a statement about how he feels about it, at no point did he ever say it shouldn't be in the game or add auto-cancelling instead. He uses it as a testament to the difficult learning curve of the smash games, something that I think should not be altered, no matter how small the change

That's not the point at all. You're reading into it for the sake of your own benefit and not for actually seeing the point for what it is. I mean damn he calls L-canceling indefensible.

So, because it is easily simplified, it should be so? That's your opinion I suppose.

If you're going to generalize every statement I make instead of directly responding to points, there's nothing left for this.

You sound like an art major, or maybe philosophy? Something occupy-wallstreet-esque.

I'm sorry, did you want a discussion or are you here to be an idiot?

Arguing on the Internet, let alone with someone as confrontational and exacting as Bleck... No one ever chooses to learn.
Sigh.

Grab popcorn, folks.

Sorry mech, but bleck is actually competent.

 

[Bleck]

Negative my good sir. You're asking for the developers to remove a mechanic of a game that could hold people back, when they should just put in the effort and git gud. You're asking for a free ticket of sorts, you want things done for you.

Yes, this is all very vitriolic and confrontational. It certainly disproves my statements about people who support l-canceling having a tendency to be very vitriolic and confrontational, yes. Good show.

You're another art major right? Kappa

I'm not, but regardless, this is vaguely insulting.

 

[Frakture]

May this be a PM vs Melee difference then with the L-cancel hitlag thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJG-tvT86WU

The L-cancel window keeps ticking down each frame after the press regardless of being/entering Hitlag from Kadano's video.

That's interesting. Yeah it seems the Brawl engine counts the L-cancel differently from Melee. I think that it may be because it is a buffer and not an isolated frame counter, because the ECB change after 10 airborne frames is affected by hitlag. Since the L-cancel window is a buffer, and you can't input anything during hitlag, it's possible that the game doesn't waste the buffer frames while in hitlag. That's just a guess of the top of my head though.

In Melee, can you start the L-cancel buffer while in hitlag?

 

[Player -0]

Where's that one post.

"Bleck is like Lucario, he pokes your shield and cancels it to be safe" or something.

 

[GP&B]

Where's that one post.

"Bleck is like Lucario, he pokes your shield and cancels it to be safe" or something.

I know what you're talking about and I wish whoever made that post would bring it up again.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah so basically he starts a discussion then refuses to back up his actual claims, but instead posts one- or two- liner ad hominems
Just re-ignored him because lol

 

[Lizalfos]

Something that's impossible to meaningfully balance around, regardless of its efficacy as a mechanic, and subsequently warps the metagame and subsequent efforts at balance.

For example, in Melee, Fox' up smash is overpowered (you can tune down the damage/knockback/knockback scaling to more reasonable levels), while the shine is broken (a cancelable 1-frame attack that links infinitely into itself and literally anything else - it's impossible to balance without fundamentally changing how it functions, such as reducing the start up time or making it so you can't jump out of it, both of which would change how one plays as Fox immensely).

You could give Fox Bowser's jump squat.
Seriously though, I really like this definition. The problem is that its applicable to things that aren't bad game design. By this definition ICs being 2 characters, Falco's lasers, Marth having a massive disjoint for every cardinal direction, and Kirby getting buffed versions of every other characters n-special are all broken.

Lots of things that were broken were removed in 3.5 (Zelda's old din comes to mind). I get what you are saying though.

So what you're saying is that how other people feel about the game doesn't matter if they aren't good at it?

Gee, I wonder why Nintendo would want to avoid people like you.

Nintendo not affiliating with PM is a primarily legal thing. It is so definitely a legal thing, that it is pointless to discuss how PM makes nintendo "feel".
- - - - - - - -
Does anyone mind me explaining why I think Reddit is the perfectly designed circlejerk facilitator?

 

[Player -0]

Maybe Bleck is secretly a Nintendo agent.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah so basically he starts a discussion then refuses to back up his actual claims, but instead posts one- or two- liner ad hominems
Just re-ignored him because lol

I don't even remember seeing stuff by him that was worth ignoring, mostly because I don't even remember that name. Of course now I have and now he is.

I think the thing to keep in mind on that front is that l-canceling is in Melee because we can't take it out, whereas l-canceling is in PM because [???]. Whether or not l-canceling (or anything else endemic to Melee) is a bad mechanic in Melee doesn't matter, 'cause Melee is what it is - but PM by nature is highly changeable, and as such there should be a good reason for anything to remain that way it is if it could be better.

That I agree with then.

 

[Lizalfos]

Did I ever dismiss those other techniques? Could you quote me where I dismissed them? #strawman



PPMD is bad at Melee Kappa. Even so, he makes a statement about how he feels about it, at no point did he ever say it shouldn't be in the game or add auto-cancelling instead. He uses it as a testament to the difficult learning curve of the smash games, something that I think should not be altered, no matter how small the change



So, because it is easily simplified, it should be so? That's your opinion I suppose.

You sound like an art major, or maybe philosophy? Something occupy-wallstreet-esque.

You sound like an asshole. It is really ironic that you linked that sub earlier. Every time you pointed out a fallacy that wasn't there, I cringed.
TL;DR stop being me from middleschool
Leave Bleck alone. He actually makes good posts, especially lately.

 

[Broccoli]

Yes, this is all very vitriolic and confrontational. It certainly disproves my statements about people who support l-canceling having a tendency to be very vitriolic and confrontational, yes. Good show.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease go to www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

I'm gonna start posting you on there, I hope you don't mind.

 

[Player -0]

TL;DR stop being me from middleschool

You still do this. All the time.

Actually you make fallacies. Whatever, I'm pretty sure you still do it and I just don't care.

 

[Broccoli]

You sound like an *******. It is really ironic that you linked that sub earlier. Every time you pointed out a fallacy that wasn't there, I cringed.
TL;DR stop being me from middleschool
Leave Bleck alone. He actually makes good posts, especially lately.

Were you cute in middle-school?

Everyone knows it was a strawman argument, don't defend him.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

It's like I'm in some backwater section of Kotaku.

 

[Broccoli]

Nintendo not affiliating with PM is a primarily legal thing. It is so definitely a legal thing, that it is pointless to discuss how PM makes nintendo "feel".

That doesn't even make sense. Nintendo owns the rights to the smash brothers series. They could easily endorse PM, no lawyers involved. It isn't a legal thing, they're butt-hurt that players thought their newest game (at the time) sucked, and made it better.

 

[SpiderMad]

That's interesting. Yeah it seems the Brawl engine counts the L-cancel differently from Melee. I think that it may be because it is a buffer and not an isolated frame counter, because the ECB change after 10 airborne frames is affected by hitlag. Since the L-cancel window is a buffer, and you can't input anything during hitlag, it's possible that the game doesn't waste the buffer frames while in hitlag. That's just a guess of the top of my head though.

In Melee, can you start the L-cancel buffer while in hitlag?

Very interesting, that seems like a pretty big difference: solving the rumored statement that L-cancels are indeed easier to hit in PM.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

W A M B U L AN C E
W E D N E S D A Y
B O Y Z

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

internet fight

Oooookayyy then

Waifu thread. Post your waifu.

 

[Broccoli]

Oooookayyy then

Waifu thread. Post your waifu.

Is there anyone else?????

 

[Lizalfos]

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease go to www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

I'm gonna start posting you on there, I hope you don't mind.

I'm going to post you posting there. kek.

Were you cute in middle-school?

Everyone knows it was a strawman argument, don't defend him.

I was ****ing adorable. Don't make me post pics.

You are actually the only one here who doesn't seem to realize that he was pointing out there are other mechanics that fulfil the role you are assigning to L-canceling without being otherwise useless. It was a perfectly constructed counterpoint. Yelling "FALACY

You still do this. All the time.

Actually you make fallacies. Whatever, I'm pretty sure you still do it and I just don't care.

IRL or here. I ****post a lot here. I try to be vigilant of that if I'm serious. Point it out next time.

That doesn't even make sense. Nintendo owns the rights to the smash brothers series. They could easily endorse PM, no lawyers involved. It isn't a legal thing, they're butt-hurt that players thought their newest game (at the time) sucked, and made it better.

PM breaks the terms of your End User License Agreement, EULA. Yes, you by installing PM are basically breaking a contract you signed with Nintendo.
If Nintendo just legitimizes something that breaks their contract, then it hurts Nintendo when they DO want to take somebody to court for modding.

You tried. And your waifu sux too.

 

[Bleck]

By this definition ICs being 2 characters, Falco's lasers, Marth having a massive disjoint for every cardinal direction, and Kirby getting buffed versions of every other characters n-special are all broken.

Maybe, maybe not. ICs I agree with, I've long argued that they're basically impossible to balance. The range, speed and damage of Falco's lasers can be tweaked, so I'm not sure I'd consider them broken. I'd argue that Marth is generally overpowered because of his extremely generous hitboxes and attack speed - Marth in Smash 4 is a good example of how the character can be strong without necessarily being suffocating. Kirby's neutral specials should only be as effective as the characters they got them from, in practice.

I'm gonna start posting you on there, I hope you don't mind.

Trying to sound cool by talking about harassing someone via reddit is pretty sad, dude.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

You really think the law is gonna stop anyone?

Nah, son. That's not how it works. There is only one way that this ever goes.

 

[~Dad~]

you guys sure know how to put the "annoying as all hell" in project m social I tell you what

 

[drakargx]

Oooookayyy then
Waifu thread. Post your waifu.

 

[Player -0]

you guys sure know how to put the "annoying as all hell" in project m social I tell you what

You're such a boring Dad

 

[Bleck]

Yeah so basically he starts a discussion then refuses to back up his actual claims, but instead posts one- or two- liner ad hominems
Just re-ignored him because lol

I'm sorry I didn't take you calling me "a casual" more seriously

 

[Saito]

Where's that one post.

"Bleck is like Lucario, he pokes your shield and cancels it to be safe" or something.

I know what you're talking about and I wish whoever made that post would bring it up again.

I was taking a nap but I'm here to ****ing deliver.

Bleck's perfect for a bait and punish.

He throws out a post that seems relatively safe to punish, but just like lucario, it cancels on hit and allows him to not only break your shield, but cause mad disrespect at the same time.

I'm always wary of that match-up. gotta respect those tools at his disposal.

Guys' this is like my 5th time posting this.
How can you guys not know this match up by now.

 

[Player -0]

I was taking a nap but I'm here to ****ing deliver.



Guys' this is like my 5th time posting this.
How can you guys not know this match up by now.

You mean we're supposed to adapt?

 

[FPSWalrus]

Oooookayyy then

Waifu thread. Post your waifu.

]

edit: i love reina more than i love haruhi, goodbye haruhi

 

[Y-L]

@ Y-L , I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to get rid of this excessive input delay? I'm doing offline emulations and getting probably somewhere from like 5-10 frames input delay, dunno that's just my estimate, but it's really noticeable.

Ok let's see if we can account for this. 5 frames sounds reasonable. However I'm almost positive the main reason you're "feeling" input lag is because of the audio. 4.0-652 has a 200 ms audio delay which a lot of people seem to believe is input lag, which is believable since we play a lot based on audio cues. Nevertheless, I'll continue.

I know the mayflash 2 port isn't natively supported but it shouldn't be THIS laggy right?

The mayflash 2 port has roughly 2 frames of input lag I believe. When I switched to the Wii U native support adapter, it was immediately noticeable for me.

I'm also using an ASUS VH238, the EVO monitor (+speakers), so that shouldn't be adding any additional lag. But I DO know the way to make this monitor lagless for CONSOLES is to use an output of its native resolution, 720p. Is there a way to set up that (or it's equivalent) for this comp? Or is it automatic? Or are there other ways to remove this input delay?

According to displaylag, your monitor has 11ms of lag which is ~3/4th of a frame. So that's about a frame there. Keep in mind response time != monitor latency. Response time is just the amount of time it takes for a pixel to change. That does not include the processing of the image. Dolphin's resolution upscale is what controls resolution, and it does not add any input lag. 1x Native would be 480p like the Wii, and 720p would be somewhere between 1.5-2x native resolution on a 1080p display. Setting the resolution to this would not do anything for you. Also if you have IR on auto it will adjust automatically to your display which is what I have it set to.

So that's about 3 frames right there. Now dolphin has some inherent lag as well. I'm not sure how much, but it's probably about a frame or two. I've heard some people believe this is mediated by disabling Windows Desktop Manager and disabling Aero, but again I'm not really sure. On the newer dolphin builds, they have a feature called Exclusive Fullscreen which makes the game render straight to your monitor as opposed to going through Windows. This removes that input lag altogether and makes the only lag you'd experience from your adapter + monitor.

PM doesn't currently sync on Netplay on the newer builds but if you play offline frequently it is definitely something you should get. I would download 4.0-5886 for offline use.

 

[Saito]

Oooookayyy then

Waifu thread. Post your waifu.

My waifu also doubles as my lawyer.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Man all the new gen comments on Omni's Smash 4 video front page is crazy and old heads are spitting the mad truth.

Oooookayyy then

Waifu thread. Post your waifu.

View attachment 44256

ATM.

 

[Draco_The]

I don't have a waifu.

 

[VinceX]

I don't have a waifu.

Hey now, Big Band is some pretty good waifu material, ya know.