Project M Recommended Ruleset

[Deleted member]

Project M Recommended Ruleset​

This is the updated and simplified recommended rule set for Project M. This rule set is strictly recommended in an effort to maintain an encompassing standard for our vast community. This rule set is not for copying into a tournament thread, as some small personal tweaks will still need to be addressed. These are dependent solely on the Tournament Host and any authorized assistance.

Stage List

Starter Stage List:

• Green Hill Zone
• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Pokémon Stadium 2
  
• Delfino's Secret

Counter Pick Stage List:

• Wario Ware
• Fountain of Dreams
• Final Destination
• Yoshi's Island
• Distant Planet

General Rules

• Items are set to Off and None.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 8 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches.
• The Tournament Host is the arbiter of all disputes.
• Blind Picks: the first character selection of a set must be without prior knowledge of the opponent's character selection for both players.
• Modified Dave's Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage he or she has previously won on unless agreed upon by both players.
• Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on so long as both players and the Tournament Host agree to it, including banned stages. This can be used in tandem with the Modified Dave's Stupid Rule (MDSR).
• Timed out matches will be determined by the remaining number of lives, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, replay that match. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

Additional Rules for Teams Play

• Life Stealing is allowed.
• Set team attack to On.

Project M Counter Pick System

1. Blind Picks character selection.
2. Stage Striking: Players eliminate stages from the Starter Stage List until only 1 remains, and the players then play the first match on that stage. Players strike stages in 1 2 2 1 order. Striking order is determined by player seed or by Rock-Paper-Scissors.
3. The first match is played.
4. Winning player of the preceding match picks a character.
5. Losing player of preceding match picks a character.
6. Winning player of preceding match bans 2 stages.
7. Losing player of preceding match picks one of the remaining stages after bans and MDSR.
8. The next match is played.
9. Repeat 4-8 for each consecutive match as necessary until the set is complete.

Recommendations to Tournament Hosts

• Players are responsible for their own general welfare in regards to the tournament. In other words, players are responsible for:
  1. Being familiar with the rule set and stage list
  2. Entrance and venue fees
  3. Arriving on time
  4. Maintaining personal hygiene
  5. Controllers and character knowledge
  6. Minimizing Johns

• Sets are usually based on double-elimination brackets which may be seeded at the Tournament Host's discretion. If your tournament is any other format, make a note to advertise it accordingly.
• Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.
• Unnecessary delays in a set should be discouraged. The Tournament Host is recommended to keep tabs on set completion.
• No more than the previous match should be replayed in the event of a rule violation and it is recommended that any disputes be brought promptly and quickly to the Tournament Host's attention.
• When running a pool, the game count of each set in pool play should be recorded (i.e. whether the set was 2-0 or 2-1). Ranking in a pool is determined by the number of sets won. In case of a tie, the first tiebreaker is the win/loss ratio of the individual games, where the higher ratio wins. In the event of a tie in both set victories and match-up ratios, the player who won the set between the disputed players should advance.
• The semi-final and championship sets should be in best of 5 format.
• The Tournament Host reserves the right at any time to make anyone leave the premises of the tournament.
• For all Project M tournaments, use of the characters Warioman and Giga Bowser are banned.

 

[Deleted member]

this can be updated as needed, any edits can be noted here and i'll clean it up as it needs it basically

 

[Boiko]

Thanks for this!

Sooo, next step... doubles stages?

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks for this!

Sooo, next step... doubles stages?

actually i think we can just leave the stage list for both singles and teams until it becomes apparent that it doesnt work for whatever reason. if and when it happens, we'll have a better idea of how to handle it when it then anyway.

 

[SOJ]

Awesome! Glad to have this ruleset

 

[Narpas_sword]

10 Stage codeset + Common5 with the coloured borders etc:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsg87fe6759c7dn/Proposed Standardised Stagelist.7z?dl=0

 

[Rizner]

What is the reasoning for a 7 minute timer?

 

[nimigoha]

Stage Striking: Players eliminate stages from the Starter Stage List until only 1 remains, and the players then play the first match on that stage. Players strike stages in 1 2 2 1 order. Striking order is determined by player seed or by Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Shouldn't this be 1 2 1 as there are only 5 starters?

Also, will you alter the SSS in 3.51 (swap Norfair and Distant Planet)? And change the 8 minute timer to 7 by default?

 

[Bazkip]

Stage List

Starter Stage List:

• Green Hill Zone
• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Pokémon Stadium 2
  
• Dreamland 64

Okay how in god's name did you to come to this.
This is basically just "Wide open space, the starters list". Even the small stage has too much airspace.
If we're having Dreamland on the starters then the small stage needs to one of the actual smallest ones, Yoshi's Story or WarioWare.
And even then, having Smashville, PS2 and Dreamland still seems like too much "room" so to speak.

Also maybe I was just imagining it but there seemed to be more support for Lylat as a CP than Yoshi's.

 

[Deleted member]

lylat has a lot of people that dislike it as well, whereas almost no one is against YI

DL64 is only until we get something better since its better than norfair and skyworld

even then using it as a reason to justify YS is horrible, YS isnt getting anywhere close to legal on a standardized list any time soon.

 

[Doctor Aids]

I'm curious as to why there is no yoshi's story on this list. It's been a competitively legal stage in pretty much every melee and PM tournament I've gone to and it's odd not to see it there as a counterpick.

 

[mimgrim]

I still think having both DP and PS2 is redundant because of how similar those stages currently are in terms of stage width and platform layout (leaves don't really make a difference), and heck even blast-zone difference between the two don't really matter).

Other then that it is probably the best we will get without making the community freak out. :L

 

[Narpas_sword]

I'm curious as to why there is no yoshi's story on this list. It's been a competitively legal stage in pretty much every melee and PM tournament I've gone to and it's odd not to see it there as a counterpick.

Because Warioware does everything YS does, without being a small BF with a janky cloud.

 

[robosteven]

Other then that it is probably the best we will get without making the community freak out. :L

I'm freaking out over the disappearance of Yoshi's Story.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Project M Recommended Ruleset​

This is the updated and simplified recommended rule set for Project M. This rule set is strictly recommended in an effort to maintain an encompassing standard for our vast community. This rule set is not for copying into a tournament thread, as some small personal tweaks will still need to be addressed. These are dependent solely on the Tournament Host and any authorized assistance.

Stage List

Starter Stage List:

• Green Hill Zone
• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Pokémon Stadium 2
  
• Dreamland 64

Counter Pick Stage List:

• Wario Ware
• Fountain of Dreams
• Final Destination
• Yoshi's Island
• Distant Planet

General Rules

• Items are set to Off and None.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 7 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches.
• The Tournament Host is the arbiter of all disputes.
• Blind Picks: the first character selection of a set must be without prior knowledge of the opponent's character selection for both players.
• Modified Dave's Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage he or she has previously won on unless agreed upon by both players.
• Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on so long as both players and the Tournament Host agree to it, including banned stages. This can be used in tandem with the Modified Dave's Stupid Rule (MDSR).
• Timed out matches will be determined by the remaining number of lives, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, replay that match. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

Additional Rules for Teams Play

• Life Stealing is allowed.
• Set team attack to On.

Project M Counter Pick System

1. Blind Picks character selection.
2. Stage Striking: Players eliminate stages from the Starter Stage List until only 1 remains, and the players then play the first match on that stage. Players strike stages in 1 2 2 1 order. Striking order is determined by player seed or by Rock-Paper-Scissors.
3. The first match is played.
4. Winning player of the preceding match picks a character.
5. Losing player of preceding match picks a character.
6. Winning player of preceding match bans 2 stages.
7. Losing player of preceding match picks one of the remaining stages after bans and MDSR.
8. The next match is played.
9. Repeat 4-8 for each consecutive match as necessary until the set is complete.

Recommendations to Tournament Hosts

• Players are responsible for their own general welfare in regards to the tournament. In other words, players are responsible for:
  
  1. Being familiar with the rule set and stage list
  2. Entrance and venue fees
  3. Arriving on time
  4. Maintaining personal hygiene
  5. Controllers and character knowledge
  6. Minimizing Johns

• Sets are usually based on double-elimination brackets which may be seeded at the Tournament Host's discretion. If your tournament is any other format, make a note to advertise it accordingly.
• Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.
• Unnecessary delays in a set should be discouraged. The Tournament Host is recommended to keep tabs on set completion.
• No more than the previous match should be replayed in the event of a rule violation and it is recommended that any disputes be brought promptly and quickly to the Tournament Host's attention.
• When running a pool, the game count of each set in pool play should be recorded (i.e. whether the set was 2-0 or 2-1). Ranking in a pool is determined by the number of sets won. In case of a tie, the first tiebreaker is the win/loss ratio of the individual games, where the higher ratio wins. In the event of a tie in both set victories and match-up ratios, the player who won the set between the disputed players should advance.
• The semi-final and championship sets should be in best of 5 format.
• Wireless controllers should be discouraged or banned because of interference, unreliability (battery life), and time hindrance.
• The Tournament Host reserves the right at any time to make anyone leave the premises of the tournament.
• For all Project M tournaments, use of the character Giga Bowser is banned.

Thanks, but no thanks. You removed the 1 minute three stock tie breaker for some reason, there's no Yoshi's Story, most of your stages have tons of air space, and I don't see the reason behind the 7 minute timer.

 

[Yeroc]

I was talking with some PM players from NC about the discussion you guys were having here, and I just wanted to chime in really quick that the rationale behind the stage-first CP system used in Melee is, indeed as @ DrinkingFood suggested, intended to reward character versatility in lieu of granting pure advantage to the loser of the previous match. It works well in that game given the small number of stages, and the low degree of characteristic overlap across those stages. In the PM environment, with many more viable characters and stages, I can see how this makes sets less....predictable? The character-first system should, in theory, make CPing strategies more analogous to they way they play out in practice for Melee. Personally, I still think the stage-first system is better overall, but since characters-first has never been properly tested I will be interested to see how this plays out regardless.

 

[TreK]

I'm in the process of coming up with a ruleset for France with a panel of top players and TOs from every region of it. Idk how you came up with this but here's what we're doing in order to minimize discontent and encourage players to travel to other regions :
-those who have a list to propose do, with explanations of why they came up with this list and not another
-when everyone who wants to propose something has done it, we go another turn around the table and ask if, based on the explanations of other people's lists, they want to modify something about their own list
-everybody votes by ranking the different lists we have proposed from favorite to least favorite
-use an alternative vote to figure out which list is the least disliked one
-If it is a close vote, less than 60% majority in the end, submit the two leading lists to a larger audience, the French PM facebook group.
-If it is still a close vote, put both rulesets on our website and advise TOs to pick one of them.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't understand the yoshi's story hate. Many of the most memorable best melee matches happened there. Its a shame. I feel Warioware is only getting selected over it because of the newness.

Saying something pretentous, Umbreon, like "it will no way be anywhere near a legal stagelist" without justification does the stage and its history a disservice. Just because you and Adam don't like it doesn't make it any less solid of a stage.

 

[jtm94]

Very good start.

Can't wait to get this circulating.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I strongly disagree with the starter list. I agree with @ Bazkip . Its just not fair to characters who like small stages when PS2 and Dreamland are there, but there isn't an extremely small stage (much less 2 small stages). Just really dumb and was never really discussed.

 

[GGSoapMan]

Project M Recommended Ruleset​

This is the updated and simplified recommended rule set for Project M. This rule set is strictly recommended in an effort to maintain an encompassing standard for our vast community. This rule set is not for copying into a tournament thread, as some small personal tweaks will still need to be addressed. These are dependent solely on the Tournament Host and any authorized assistance.

Stage List

Starter Stage List:

• Green Hill Zone
• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Pokémon Stadium 2
  
• Dreamland 64

Counter Pick Stage List:

• Wario Ware
• Fountain of Dreams
• Final Destination
• Yoshi's Island
• Distant Planet

General Rules

• Items are set to Off and None.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 7 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches.
• The Tournament Host is the arbiter of all disputes.
• Blind Picks: the first character selection of a set must be without prior knowledge of the opponent's character selection for both players.
• Modified Dave's Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage he or she has previously won on unless agreed upon by both players.
• Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on so long as both players and the Tournament Host agree to it, including banned stages. This can be used in tandem with the Modified Dave's Stupid Rule (MDSR).
• Timed out matches will be determined by the remaining number of lives, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, replay that match. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

Additional Rules for Teams Play

• Life Stealing is allowed.
• Set team attack to On.

Project M Counter Pick System

1. Blind Picks character selection.
2. Stage Striking: Players eliminate stages from the Starter Stage List until only 1 remains, and the players then play the first match on that stage. Players strike stages in 1 2 2 1 order. Striking order is determined by player seed or by Rock-Paper-Scissors.
3. The first match is played.
4. Winning player of the preceding match picks a character.
5. Losing player of preceding match picks a character.
6. Winning player of preceding match bans 2 stages.
7. Losing player of preceding match picks one of the remaining stages after bans and MDSR.
8. The next match is played.
9. Repeat 4-8 for each consecutive match as necessary until the set is complete.

Recommendations to Tournament Hosts

• Players are responsible for their own general welfare in regards to the tournament. In other words, players are responsible for:
  
  1. Being familiar with the rule set and stage list
  2. Entrance and venue fees
  3. Arriving on time
  4. Maintaining personal hygiene
  5. Controllers and character knowledge
  6. Minimizing Johns

• Sets are usually based on double-elimination brackets which may be seeded at the Tournament Host's discretion. If your tournament is any other format, make a note to advertise it accordingly.
• Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.
• Unnecessary delays in a set should be discouraged. The Tournament Host is recommended to keep tabs on set completion.
• No more than the previous match should be replayed in the event of a rule violation and it is recommended that any disputes be brought promptly and quickly to the Tournament Host's attention.
• When running a pool, the game count of each set in pool play should be recorded (i.e. whether the set was 2-0 or 2-1). Ranking in a pool is determined by the number of sets won. In case of a tie, the first tiebreaker is the win/loss ratio of the individual games, where the higher ratio wins. In the event of a tie in both set victories and match-up ratios, the player who won the set between the disputed players should advance.
• The semi-final and championship sets should be in best of 5 format.
• Wireless controllers should be discouraged or banned because of interference, unreliability (battery life), and time hindrance.
• The Tournament Host reserves the right at any time to make anyone leave the premises of the tournament.
• For all Project M tournaments, use of the character Giga Bowser is banned.

I really think Norfair should be a counterpick

 

[SunJester]

If your character doesn't want to start on a large stage, good thing you have two stage strikes then. :B


If you dislike the stagelist, or want to change it, please give reasons why.

PS: DL64 is going to be the first stage to go once we have another "starter worthy" stage. Right now it's being used due to familiarity.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I still disagree with the characters first selection for counterpicks. It mostly negates advantage a player has for mastering multiple characters.

 

[mimgrim]

I strongly disagree with the starter list. I agree with @ Bazkip . Its just not fair to characters who like small stages when PS2 and Dreamland are there, but there isn't an extremely small stage (much less 2 small stages). Just really dumb and was never really discussed.

You're not really going to get a good starter list with just 5 stages anyway as you will always disfavor characters that like small stages or big stages (or even both types of characters).

I don't understand the yoshi's story hate. Many of the most memorable best melee matches happened there. Its a shame. I feel Warioware is only getting selected over it because of the newness.

Saying something pretentous, Umbreon, like "it will no way be anywhere near a legal stagelist" without justification does the stage and its history a disservice. Just because you and Adam don't like it doesn't make it any less solid of a stage.

WW promotes better stage diversity and less janky (of course jank differs from person to person and one persons jank is another persons normal and jank isn't always bad in the first place) stages, making it a clear better choice then YS imo.

I feel the only reason people chose YS over WW for legal stages is because of tradition and nostalgia.

I mean, I don't think it is an unviable stage. But there are really a ton of viable stages in P:M we ignore a lot of them because there are just too many good ones. Why go YS, which is just a small BF clone with a janky cloud, when you can go with WW which has a unique platform layout to it, allowing better stage diversity, while still filling the niche that YS does?

 

[Narpas_sword]

I still disagree with the characters first selection for counterpicks. It mostly negates advantage a player has for mastering multiple characters.

We've been over this a lot man =/

Tossing in a 'this happen in this scenario' is a really terrible way of looking at the process as a whole.
Both methods have their niche 'this might happen' situation.

On the flip side of "It mostly negates advantage a player has for mastering multiple characters." is "mastering multiple characters completely negates the stage counter-picking process"

You need to look at the process as a whole.

Multiple times i outlined advantages of the Character>Stage system.
Next to no advantages outside of nice situations were presented for Stage>Character Method.

Here are the key advantages to Character>Stage picking.

- It is intuitive: it follows the menu order.
- It is consistent with the order of the first game.
- It's less likely to require LRAStarts when someone accidentally forgets to go back to pick characters.
- It takes less time: Counter-picking the stage with the knowledge of the character = no guessing.
- Knowing the opponents possible characters is no longer needed. (this is how it should be)

 

[Wibbles]

Shouldn't this be 1 2 1 as there are only 5 starters?

"1 2 2 1" in this case means player 1, player 2, player 2, player 1.

 

[Jacob29]

This rule set is strictly recommended

Man you can't just post this ruleset and say that it is strictly recommended (Recommended by who, for starters... yourself alone..? lmfao)

As you can see there are already several dissenting opinions on this, and yet you want to already make a standardized ruleset. I am sure you are open to change, but perhaps making that more known as "strictly recommended" makes it sound like this is set in stone.




I still don't get why you want 7 minutes over 8. Have you looked into this?

I rarely ever seen a PM Timeout. I'm sure they exist, but is that 1 minute going to shave more time? Also an important thing to note from when Evo timer discuss came about:

If the timer is too low then it will actually make the tournament longer as more people will strive for a timeout as it's more easily accomplished.

Now I'm not saying that will happen with 8 to 7, it probably won't, but I personally haven't seen you put any researched evidence out there to suggest it significantly helps with tournament run times.




Also yes as other people have pointed out this stage list punishes characters who prefer small stages way harder than characters who like space.

If you are against Bowser you will ban warioware and FoD most likely. Now where do I go? Nearly all the other stages will result in a mostly neutral stage such as battlefield or green hill zone.

But if the Bowser is against someone like Falcon I can't ban Smashville, FD, PS2 AND Distant Planet. I just don't have enough bans.

So how is this fair? A stage list helps massively with creating a viable cast, if we suddenly only played on FD like in For Glory i'm sure the tier list will shake up quite a bit especially within the mid and lower tiers.


edit:

also, how the hell is YS jank but YI isn't? The stage has the god damn ghosts and the floor moves in a zig-zag pattern with a rotating platform??? That sounds way more jank than "it's battlefield but smaller also has a set cloud that sometimes saves you".

 

[Narpas_sword]

Boswer only being viable on 2 stages is a problem for Bowsers design, not for a stage list discussion.

 

[Jacob29]

I'm sure Bowser isn't the only sufferer of this but I don't have the character knowledge to name them.

Perhaps other people could tell me whether i'm wrong or right. But I don't think Ganon players would be too happy with these changes either.

If it is specific to Bowser then I can easily admit you are right and I am being a little to main centric.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Not particularly keen on that stagelist.

I'd plug FLSS, but I'm guessing there's not a whole lot of traction for the idea around here despite PM being ideally suited for it.

 

[Narpas_sword]

id say the issue with FLSS is that 99% of the time, it will strike to the starters anyway.

It would jsut add time to the striking process at this point.

Perhaps if it were, strike 2 each, then random, but noone is going to accept that.

 

[InfinityCollision]

id say the issue with FLSS is that 99% of the time, it will strike to the starters anyway.

It would jsut add time to the striking process at this point.

Perhaps if it were, strike 2 each, then random, but noone is going to accept that.

I hear this criticism occasionally, but that doesn't really happen in practice. I've run it a few times in small events; you'll occasionally see that pattern with certain players when they're unfamiliar with the system, but overall (and especially in the long run) it facilitates a much-needed move away from overuse of BF/PS2/Smashville.

FLSS is much better suited to handling diversity in both stage and character selection than traditional striking.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Even if it did normally strike to the starters anyway it still eliminates the whole argument over what should and should not be a starter which, judging from both this thread and the previous one, is a major point of contention.

 

[Jacob29]

I feel the only reason people chose YS over WW for legal stages is because of tradition and nostalgia.

I mean, I don't think it is an unviable stage. But there are really a ton of viable stages in P:M we ignore a lot of them because there are just too many good ones. Why go YS, which is just a small BF clone with a janky cloud, when you can go with WW which has a unique platform layout to it, allowing better stage diversity, while still filling the niche that YS does?

Also because it balances out the large and small stages... and PM is lacking in viable small stages...

If YS is going to go, DP goes too. It's pretty much PS2 with those stupid leafs and a wall. Even then this list favours large stages.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I am gonna make a sweep of this thread. Wall of text alert.

lylat has a lot of people that dislike it as well, whereas almost no one is against YI

DL64 is only until we get something better since its better than norfair and skyworld

even then using it as a reason to justify YS is horrible, YS isnt getting anywhere close to legal on a standardized list any time soon.

I for one prefer lylat, I made it known in the other thead and can quote it over hear if anyone is wondering why. Looking back, it wasn't just me having a preference towards Lylat. I agree about Yoshi's Story (not that it never will though), just that I much prefer WarioWare. Can you explain how Norfair and Skyworld are worse than DL64? Looking at Joe's stage tool, Norfair is like FD in that it is just on the edge between big stage/medium stage with a lower ceiling than Smashville. Skyworld has more reasonable blastzones than DL, and a lower top platform height than Battlefield. I think people are just having gut reactions about it.

I still think having both DP and PS2 is redundant because of how similar those stages currently are in terms of stage width and platform layout (leaves don't really make a difference), and heck even blast-zone difference between the two don't really matter).

Other then that it is probably the best we will get without making the community freak out. :L

I agree about Distant Planet. In the original thread when it turned into a potential stage changes thread, I suggested a raising of the ceiling. That would make the difference actually matter, because that is a key point of PS2. If we had Distant Planet with a high ceiling (~220), I would be comfortable removing Dreamland from the stage list if deemed too bothersome.

If your character doesn't want to start on a large stage, good thing you have two stage strikes then. :B


If you dislike the stagelist, or want to change it, please give reasons why.

PS: DL64 is going to be the first stage to go once we have another "starter worthy" stage. Right now it's being used due to familiarity.

I assume this was a response to me/Bazkip, though I apologize if it wasn't.

While you may not end up on a large stage, they still have much more freedom in what they want to go to. You could say that it shouldn't matter too much because I don't get taken to a big stage, but they get to decide what medium stage benefits them most. I am still against it, but I think another medium stage (like Yoshi's Island or Lylat), PS2, and GHZ. Sure, floaties might not like there only big stage being PS2 for starters, but they do have GHZ. Basically, PS2 ruins any chance of having a fair starter list of 5.

Even with the full list, there are issues. I was just rereading the original thread and on page 11 you posted a stage list. Using your qualifications, you had 2 small stages, 4 medium stages, and 4 large stages (being unsure on what to call FD, which is understandable) with 2 bans. How can you think thats a good stage list? Thats 4 large stages and 2 small, I just can't imagine how that seems fair.

Not particularly keen on that stagelist.

I'd plug FLSS, but I'm guessing there's not a whole lot of traction for the idea around here despite PM being ideally suited for it.

I would actually like to try or see people try Full List Stage Striking, it seems like it would be neat. Might add a bit of time, but if you struck in bigger chunks, like by 2's or 3's/1's, it couldn't take too long once people got used to it.

Overall, stage list wise, I think something needs to be done with the starter list. I have been rereading the old thread. On page 11 atm. I think overall page 11 has the most good discussion on what should be in a stage list (ratios of s/m/l, does that matter, does classifying stages matter) from what I have read. Reading it, can @DMG and @Scatz come in and comment on this proposed list. You had a lot of good stuff on page 11 that didn't seem to get translated into the final product. You both had a lot of insights that would be nice to hear.

 

[mimgrim]

FLSS is much better suited to handling diversity in both stage and character selection than traditional striking.

I already tried proposing the FLSS system in the other thread... I got promptly ignored(as in, no one bothered to even reply to the suggestion and I made brought it up multiple times). So I stopped trying. It's really hard to get rid of tradition I guess.

Also because it balances out the large and small stages... and PM is lacking in viable small stages...

If YS is going to go, DP goes too. It's pretty much PS2 with those stupid leafs and a wall. Even then this list favours large stages.

DP does need to go. It is way to similar to PS2 to be of any true relevancy and be anything but redundant. I'd much rather see something like Lylat or Metal Cavern or second phase non-transforming Frigate or first phase non transforming Castle Siege or something like that.

 

[nimigoha]

I think a lot of people still have too much of a problem with Lylat for it to be widely accepted.

Which sucks because it has a unique platform layout which is refreshing. But the ledges and loud background are a bit much. Making them more forgiving and possibly altering the background would go a long way and give a more accepted unique stage.

 

[Chevy]

I have no good arguments against Lylat and Skyworld other than simply disliking them. I'd be down with Norfair over Dreamland as a starter. Replace Fountain with Yoshi's Story as a counterpick. 7 minute timer is dumb.

 

[Kati]

Lylat's background is really easy to fix... and pmdt tweaked the ledges on both lylat and skyworld... I think there's too much prejudice carried over from previous versions of PM.

 

[SunJester]

While you may not end up on a large stage, they still have much more freedom in what they want to go to. You could say that it shouldn't matter too much because I don't get taken to a big stage, but they get to decide what medium stage benefits them most. I am still against it, but I think another medium stage (like Yoshi's Island or Lylat), PS2, and GHZ. Sure, floaties might not like there only big stage being PS2 for starters, but they do have GHZ. Basically, PS2 ruins any chance of having a fair starter list of 5.

Even with the full list, there are issues. I was just rereading the original thread and on page 11 you posted a stage list. Using your qualifications, you had 2 small stages, 4 medium stages, and 4 large stages (being unsure on what to call FD, which is understandable) with 2 bans. How can you think thats a good stage list? Thats 4 large stages and 2 small, I just can't imagine how that seems fair.

This was simply a matter of finding the most agreeable stages and putting them into a stage list. I'm okay with FoD being moved to a starter, DL being removed, and putting in either Norfair or Lylat. Even then, there seems to be a lot of hate for those stages. My suggestion for keeping DL was simply one of familiarity, everyone knows the stage, and everyone has played tournament matches on the stage. I think you're right though, its a crap starter.

So:

Starters:
Green Hill Zone (S)
Battlefield (M)
Smashville (M)
Fountain of Dreams (M)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (L)

Counterpicks:
WarioWare (S)
Yoshi's Island (M)
Final Destination (M/L)?
Norfair/Lylat Cruise (M)
Distant Planet/Dreamland (64) (L)

I think having two large stages or two small stages now is redundant for starters, they're just going to get banned and end up on the middle stage. Which is why I (now) think starters should only have one small and one large stage, incase its agreeable for both parties. FoD is debatable here, but from what I can gather from other's opinions, its probably the least polarizing medium stage that isnt Battlefield or Smashville.

Gives us 5(6) Medium, 2 Small, 3(2) Large. So we have to ask a question, do we unquestionably want someone to counterpick us to the stage size of their choice (Large or Small) ?

If we definitely want a counterpick then we'd have to go with

Starters:
Green Hill Zone (S)
Battlefield (M)
Smashville (M)
Fountain of Dreams (M)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (L)

Counterpicks:
Warioware (S)
Yoshi's Story (S)
Dreamland (L)
Distant Planet (L)
Yoshi's Island/Norfair/Lylat Cruise (M)

Which would give us 3 Small Stages and 3 Large stages, and 4 medium stages.


We could always keep this real simple and pull a Melee and just have those five starters, no bans, maybe one or two completely agreed upon counterpicks.

So:
Starters:
Green Hill Zone (S)
Battlefield (M)
Smashville (M)
Fountain of Dreams (M)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (L)

Counterpicks:
Yoshi's Island (M)

I think it comes down to, do we want a really neutral stage list, or do we want a counterpick heavy stage list.

I'm a bit over my head here, I don't have the knowledge that most people do. I (admittedly) was going off of the stages that I saw popular tournament usage for, and the most "agreeable" stages in PM. I'm just glad someone decided to explain why they disliked the stage list. Its just counterproductive to say you don't like something without suggesting changes, or saying you want a stage without saying which it would replace.

Regardless, this really is something I'd like to see discussed. I think the varying stage lists and rules just aren't cutting it anymore, something standard, like what melee has, would be really nice.


Edit: We'll probably spend weeks crafting our perfect stage list, and everyone is going to just run it back to PS2 or SV all the time lol.