Project M Community MU Chart [αlpha]

[AuraMaudeGone]

Hey guys,

I started building a MU chart consisting the whole PM cast using data found in our character forums. With that being said, there are some obvious conflicts due to how character communities feel about how their own character performs against certain MUs.

This is a living MU Chart, so it is not set in stone and is subject to change at anytime when the right amount of evidence and results are presented in his ever changing meta-game.

Community MU Chart Spreadsheet

Voting Format

Spoiler

Large (Dis)Advantage | ±3 | ≥70:30
(Dis)Advantage | ±2 | 60:40
Slight (Dis)Advantage | ±1 | 55:45
Even | 0 | 50:50

Reference 1
Reference 2
Reference 3 ...

I suggest anyone to post here and vote with their opinion on a character's MU spread using the above format (You can do multiple characters if you like). What will make your vote weigh heavier is citing valid discussion about the MU's. I also want this thread clean and organized, so if you disagree with a certain MU, I suggest you take it to the respective Character Board and discuss the MU there and come back with a resolution.

 

[ECHOnce]

MUs |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| 3 | 1 | 0 | ? | ? | -2 | -1 | -2 | 2 | ? | 1 | 2 | -1 | ? | -1 | 3 | 1 | 0 | ? | 0 | 0 | -2 | 1 | 1 | ? | 2 | 1 | ? | -1 | -1 | 0 || 2 | 0 | -1 | 0 | 1 | -1 | ? | 1 | ?
| 1 | 0 | 1 | ? | 1 | -1 | -2 | -2 | 2 | 2 | -1 | 2 | ? | ? | -1 | -1 | 2 | -1 | -1 | 0 | -2 | -2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | ? | ? | ? | 1 | -1 | 1 | -1 | 0* | 1 | -2 | -1 | -1 | -1 | ? || ?

​

*Previously thought this MU was 50:50 before the transformation/mine jank, which would give Zelda a slight advantage (55:45). But on second thought...I feel that Snake wins the neutral, so I'll just leave it at 50:50.

Spoiler: (original post)

Advantage | +2 | 60:40


Disadvantage | -2 | 40:60


Slight Advantage | +1 | 55:45


Even | 0 | 50:50


Large Advantage | +3 | 70:30


Slight Disadvantage | -1 | 45:55


Slight Disadvantage | -1 | 45:55


(Slight Advantage | +1 | 55:45)*


Disadvantage | -2 | 40:60


Slight Disadvantage | -1 | 45:55


*(I feel this MU is fairly even...maybe slight advantage, but Zelda and Sheik both have the option of transforming to remove mines. Even though Snake's can easily work around this by doing it in the middle of their kill combo, or not giving them a safe place to transform (offstage transform --> grab ledge and edgeguard; onstage transform --> detonate it immediately and try lay another on, detonate it upon transformation ending, or punish some other way), it still makes Snake work harder for his usual combo finisher. And that's what MU scores should represent lol. It seems a bit jank, but it's an interesting mechanic that adds some depth to a unique MU lol. Works for/against both characters in different situations. Sorta like when people steal Diddy Bananas or ROB Gyros; the main should know how to use the item better than the opponent, but it can sometimes work out badly)

No actual references atm; I'll gather some later, but for now I'm just going off of experience and watching others. I'll have to consult my fellow Zeldas on some of the MUs that I feel have changed drastically since 3.02, back when we had most of our MU chart sorta figured out. That, and I didn't get much tournament time until more recently since 3.6's release, so my opinions may be outdated. MUs I'm unsure for these reasons are italicized.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

btw, you didn't have to add multiple of the same head. They were just there for filler.
Edit: You put Roy as Slight Disadvantage | 40:60, which one is it?

 

[Narelex]

You already have me and Jolteon's MK MU list

So if anyone disagree's with the MK MU's I will show them the truth.

 

[steelguttey]

Large Advantage | +3 | 70:30

nah that mu is even dawg

 

[menotyou135]

I disagree with marth losing to diddy by anything more than 55-45. TBH, I think it is pretty even. There is a Diddy player who consistently places higher than me at our locals and I almost always beat him. While that is only allegorical evidence, I think that marths who think that they lose so hard to diddy just don't understand diddy's tools.

50-50

Marth doesn't lose to Charizard after the nair nerfs of 3.5 anymore either. TBH it might be in marth's favor now if only slightly.

50-50

Additionally, I think marth has a slight disadvantage against link. A good link can stop the marth from consistently approaching, marth doesn't have any direct answers to shield and is easily punished on every on-shield attack. If you go for a grab and the link predicts it, his grab beats yours out and his disjoint can beat your grab range. He can also shut down you dash dance game with projectiles, he is hard to edgeguard if he has any intellect in mixing up between chain and spin attack, it is difficult to come down against him, and most legal maps are large and therefore in his favor. Marth wins on smaller maps, but there are more link favored maps at most tourneys than there are marth favored maps. If the map pool restricts larger maps in the region it is probably 50-50 but if the regional TO prefers big maps being legal it can be as bad as 60-40 in links favor. Overall, it is usually 55-45.

55-45

Marth Falco is even. It might even be in marth's favor. Even more true with fox as it was even in melee and PM nerfed Fox. I think Falco was harder for marth in melee even with a more powerful fox due to laser pressure messing up the dash dance game of marth and fox punishes being slightly more optimal. TBH, I think it is 55-45 in marth's favor now mostly because of the nerfs mixed with maps that favor marth more now. Wolf is also pretty even. The Chaingrab is a little different from the other two and not quite as good. Furthermore, his projectile is good for forcing marth's hand and he isn't as fragile as Falco.

50-50 (maybe 45-55 in marth's favor)
45-55
50-50

I don't think Marth v Snake is 70-30. 65-35 at worst and I personally doubt that but as a marth player I can understand why my opinion might not be worth a whole lot. Personally I think it is 60-40.

40-60

Marth Sonic is really bad for sonic. Probably at least 60-40 if not more in Marth's favor. It should be at least 2.

40-60

D3 vs Marth probably isn't actually 70-30, but it is at least 60-40.

60-40

Marth vs Ivysaur is one of the worst matchups in the game for ivy. TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 80-20 in Marth's favor. Ivy has basically no answer to marth. It is like Peach vs Ice Climbers in Melee. Maybe worse than that. If you could invent a 4 for this matchup, it would be deserved.

25-75

Marth has a rough matchup against Rob. I don't know if I just play it wrong but it feels like it is at least 55-45 in Rob's favor.

55-45

DK is also probably slightly in DK's favor just because of his ability to both out punish and out space marth.

55-45

I am convinced that Ganon v Marth is slightly in ganon's favor for similar reasons to DK.

55-45

Marth vs Jiggz is also 55-45 in Marth's favor.

45-55

Marth beats squirtle, but I am not sure how much so I will put 55-45 here just to be safe.

45-55

Marth also still beats peach slightly

45-55

Yoshi beats marth slightly. Not as bad as 3.5. Might actually be even.

55-45

Roy vs Marth is even.

50-50

As for the blank spaces Marth v Ness is like 55-45 in marth's favor. Marth beats Game and Watch pretty bad and probably beats Ice Climbers. I wouldn't be surprised if Marth vs Wario was in Marth's favor as well. Pit might be slightly winning against marth now that he is a little bit more like 3.02 pit again where it was 60-40 in Pit's favor, but in 3.5 it was pretty even. Marth probably has a slight edge over pikachu and Samus. I have mixed feelings about sheik, but I think it is still in sheik's favor. These ones I am not super sure about so you can choose to add them to voting or not.

Also, Bowser's stats across the board are obviously made by a really salty Bowser player. Bowser actually does have even matchups and only about a third of the -3 matchups displayed.

 

[robosteven]

Pretty sure Olimar beats Snake due to his ability to just throw Pikmin at any explosives and also that Snake's combo food for him always.

Also Oli poops on Jiggs.

 

[Mizter Ultimaman]

> Large (Dis)Advantage | ±3 | ≥70:30

I've only ever seen a large (dis)advantage be defined as a 65:35 or more. But this isn't my chart.

 

[Vulvasaur]

My input on squirtle's matchups, Diddy no better than 1, DK 1, Falco 2, Fox -1, Ganon -1, Lucario -1, Marth 0, Roy -2, Snake 1, Zelda -1

Diddy doesnt have anything in his kit worse than squirtle except movement which he can use his nuts and nanners to put up a good fight, his attacks are strong and he can get a few combos in to kills. Both can stuff each other's recoveries with out much challenge, but squirtle will win neutral if banana isnt in play.

DK isnt fast enough to handle squirtle, and once we get something started on him, he's done.

Falco is a bird who can't fly. Once he's offstage, which squirtle is very good at, thats a dead bird. Squirtle can get around and duck under lasers so they shouldnt be a problem in neutral, and at low percents armor goes through them. Squirtle combos fast fallers hard, and is able to put on damage fast and convert to an edgeguard from his first hit of neutral. Falco cant even edgeguard squirtle effectively, but squirtle can go out far to smack falco far away, and can cover his limited options to recover.

Fox handles the neutral better and greater recovery and Squirtle doesnt combo fox as easily as falco. This one goes to fox.

Ganon's beefy hits can stuff out squirtle's approaches and get him out of loose combos. Ganon can destroy squirtle's recovery, though neutral is fairly even. Ganon's floatieness puts him at an awkward spot to combo, so squirtle doesnt get much off his hits.

Lucario gets a lot off his hits on squirtle like he does with any character. In an ideal world where the lucario player has a tight neutral and hard punishes, this goes to lucario every time over a perfect squirtle. But since we've yet to set a perfect squirtle or perfect lucario, -1 for now. Lucario can go as far out for edgeguards as squirtle and can combo and interrupt his moves to get another hit after any hit. Squirtle has his movement, but combos are going to be short and lead to an edgeguard that lucario has multiple options to get make from.

Marth can shut out a squirtle with weaker neutral, but I think Squirtle's who mix up their movement, play smart and ban small stages can win this neutral game. Marth can break out of loose combos fairly easily like Ganon, but doesnt hit as hard. Marth and squirtle can both edgeguard each other really well and its one of my favorite matchups because it always feels like it goes to the person who was playing best. Not just that the character handled the other player better.

Roy is Squirtle's worst matchup, Roy's combo game is perfect for semi-floaty characters like squirtle and he can get a lot off one hit. Squirtle can get a lot off of comboing Roy as well, but Roy beats out squirtle's CCs, while squirtle cannot do the same to Roy. Squirtle also has a pretty hard time edgeguarding roy compared to marth. Roy's strong moves can kill squirtle very early and if a Roy player sees you DI into Fsmash range, you''d better hope you're below 60% or you're dead.

Snake has a lot of ways to combo squirtle and ways to get something started in neutral. His c4 kills at low percents and a well placed mine can change the tide of the game at any moment. He's difficult to edge guard, with squirtle's best options being watergun or bubble, which snake can still sweetspot during or if he is hit he can still recover after the water projectile had hit him. This being said, I think squirtle can combo him harder and has a better time in neutral, but snake can put mines on the ledges and c4 on walls. which let him edgeuard squirtle extremely effectively. I think neutral is pretty even but snake kills squirtle faster and edgeguards squirtle with far greater ease.

Zelda gets pretty messed up in neutral. She can't use Din's fire nearly as effectively as in other matchups because of squirtle's speed and maneuverability she has a hard time comboing squirtle and struggles to edge guard. Her downB is her best option in against squirtle.

Also Snake vs Snake is a 60-40 matchup, advantage to highest port.

 

[ImmaAsian]

Here's some Falcon MUs for you guys that aren't filled out and what I believe:

vs
50 50
- Falcon has great combo ability in this MU, yet DK has up-air strings up the wazoo to DK Punch. MU is super fun and fair for both characters.

vs
45 55

- Gimp city, basically G&W has all of the right tools to take Falcon off-stage for an easy kill. Along with Gdubs' crazy recovery, Falcon has to play super defensive in this MU. Nevertheless, as long as Capt can punish right and play safe, he can put in a ton of work as well.

vs
55 45

- Battle of the Manly. Falcon as speed over Ganon in this matchup. He can combo Ganon to death essentially at any point in the match, but so can Ganon. Ganon does have to play much more defensively and put as much work into punishes as best as he can though. Despite this, he won't get a ton of opportunities over how fast Falcon is. Also Falcon has to watch out for silly Flame Chokes coming towards him off-stage when edgeguarding. I have to admit this MU is pretty fun, but Falcon wins nonetheless.

vs
40 60

- Ivysaur's range with his aerials, great recovery, solarbeam, grabs and razor leaf projectile. That's all.

That's all for now, I'll be adding more later. 20GX here we come!

 

[DiZZ]

Hey everyone its Noghrilla and from my time with dk I have a pretty good idea for his mu spread and here it comes
Dk Mus

Insanely difficult -3

Brutal -2.5

Pretty Hard -2

Disadvantage -1.5

Slight Disadvantage -1



Even 0

Slight advantage +1

Favorable +1.5

Easy +2

 

[Vitriform]

Zelda matchups (these are purely my opinions):

Extremely difficult (-3)


Difficult (-2)


Somewhat difficult (-1)


Neutral (0)


Somewhat advantageous (+1)


Advantageous (+2)

 

[aznasazin11]

How does ZSS beat Sheik so hard? I play this match up as Sheik and get bodied. Anyone have any advice?

 

[DrinkingFood]

reminder that most players are pretty bad and not qualified to judge whether a matchup is advantageous, disadvantageous, or even, much less its exact or approx MU ratio

 

[Scaremonger]

Why does Marth apparently lose to spacies? I don't get it. I think Marth has an advantage against both spacies in Melee (Fox is debatable, and I really don't see how it could have gotten worse. The neutral stages have drastically less platforms for Fox to move away from Marth on, all Marth has to do is strike Dreamland and he's great. No more platform campy spacies.

there are a handfull of other nerfs/buffs that, while not super central to the matchup, still grant Marth slight advantages in microsituations. Marth is harder to shinespike because of aerial shine nerfs and recovery buffs, jab upsmash is not a thing anymore, Fox's best grounded kill move kills later in general, etc.

So why does Marth suddenly have a disadvantage? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, Marth vs Melee Plumbers is like slight advantage at best in Marth's favor, maybe even null advantage. Every argument I've ever heard for those two losing so hard to Marth has always been incredibly silly. Lol @ Ivy vs Marth being worse than 6-4.

 

[SpiderMad]

reminder that most players are pretty bad and not qualified to judge whether a matchup is advantageous, disadvantageous, or even, much less its exact or approx MU ratio

I've played Falco dittos my whole life and I still don't know who wins

but no seriously, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd gives hope to these sort of things

 

[DrinkingFood]

I've played Falco dittos my whole life and I still don't know who wins

but no seriously, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd gives hope to these sort of things

See also:
Argumentum ad populum
Bandwagon effect

funny that my opinion of crowd wisdom should be related terms to crowd wisdom
MU ratios aren't something that can be estimated by crowd wisdom because there are multiple things involved that few people even have an understanding of. Like, what do they think a 75:25 is? Do they understand that as, one character has a 25% chance of winning a match? A set? On what stages? Do they even understand how the characters interact enough to make any kind of ratio at all? This is more than judging a single variable of something, say, weight or an object, which crowd wisdom can miraculously do fairly accurately.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How does ZSS beat Sheik so hard? I play this match up as Sheik and get bodied. Anyone have any advice?

You might wanna visit the Sheik boards.

Applied an update using what was gathered here so far. Anything with a '?' is going to require both parties to explain their differences and come up with an answer they both agree on.

 

[Saproling]

My take on Ivy.

Good match ups
80:20

70:30

60:40

Even match ups

50:50

Poor match ups
40:60

30:70

Open to further criticism.

 

[ECHOnce]

btw, you didn't have to add multiple of the same head. They were just there for filler.
Edit: You put Roy as Slight Disadvantage | 40:60, which one is it?

It did look a little silly in the OP example, but whatevs aha. Mixed Roy's scores up because I went back and forth on it a few times...I'll settle on slight disadvantage. btw if you are tallying the votes already, I just wanted to reemphasize that my italicized votes shouldn't be counted yet, since I'm not 100% on those. I'll confirm them and mention which were changed.

EDIT: just finished my chart for all of Sheik's/Zelda's MUs. To save you the trouble of checking it again whenever the Zelda board chimes in, I'll just stop updating my vote from now.

nah that mu is even dawg

Just my first impressions lol. I've only played it once, and although it was a state-ranked player (I'm not), he only picked Oli up as a recent pocket character. It felt pretty dominant, but given the circumstances I'd take your word over miine. Hence my disclaimer about needing to talk about the italicized MUs with the rest of the Zeldas later to confirm them. Heh.

 

[JOE!]

Where did you get the Zard info? Even though the Zard MU thread is a bit out of date, it doesn't have those numbers

 

[Chevy]

Whenever one of these pops up I just get mad at all the dumb opinions because no one is qualified at this state in the game's life to talk about matchups. Almost no characters actually have high level representation, and the ones that do, can't have high level practice vs. the ones that don't.

That said:

65:35 Samus 55:45 Falcon undecided
50:50 60:40 Samus 50:50
55:45 Samus 45:55 Fox 55:45 Samus
60:40 Samus 40:60 Ike 55:45 Samus
undecided 55:45 Link 60:40 Samus
undecidedundecided 55:45 Mario
55:45 Marth undecided
50:50 55:45 Samus undecided
60:40 Samus undecided undecided
60:40 R.O.B. 60:40 Shiek
60:40 Samus undecided 55:45 Squirtle
60:40 Toon Link 55:45 Samus 55:45 Samus
undecided 60:40 Zelda 60:40 ZSS
60:40 Mewtwo 50:50

 

[ImmaAsian]

Whenever one of these pops up I just get mad at all the dumb opinions because no one is qualified at this state in the game's life to talk about matchups. Almost no characters actually have high level representation, and the ones that do, can't have high level practice vs. the ones that don't.

That said:

65:35 Samus 55:45 Falcon undecided
50:50 60:40 Samus 50:50
55:45 Samus 45:55 Fox 55:45 Samus
60:40 Samus 40:60 Ike 55:45 Samus
undecided 55:45 Link 60:40 Samus
undecidedundecided 55:45 Mario
55:45 Marth undecided
50:50 55:45 Samus undecided
60:40 Samus undecided undecided
60:40 R.O.B. 60:40 Shiek
60:40 Samus undecided 55:45 Squirtle
60:40 Toon Link 55:45 Samus 55:45 Samus
undecided 60:40 Zelda 60:40 ZSS
60:40 Mewtwo 50:50

Why not try to explain and elaborate on some of these MUs then? I'd be willing to hear your opinion and why you believe these. Even if most of these are wrong, I guess it's a place to start and start breaking things down anyway.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Few opinions on some Squirtman matchups:

45:55
Squirtle might have a strong punish game on zard and bubbles are super useful. The problem is that a whiffed approach by Squirtle is easily punished by Zard. His Nair is extremely strong in this matchup and covers so many of Squirtle's options. Additionally, he has a sick edgeguarding game and has a plethora of moves that beat withdraw or hydropivot/hydrocrawl/wd approaches. Dthrow tech chase is basically free on Squirtle. You can't tech roll because tech rolls are ****e and tech in place can get jabbed immediately -> insta combo starter. But I'd say it's 55:45 at worst because zard is fat.

45:55
Not 100% sure about that matchup.. but whatever. If you take R.O.B on a large stage, you'll get ****ed. Also, his CC Dsmash will punish careless approaches and misspacing relentlessly. Gyro restricts Squirtle's movement but he can hydrotoss it and since R.O.B's Side-B was nerfed it's kinda ok I guess. Pretty sure airdash fair/nair will beat out any slingjump approach when timed correctly and the latter will also kill relatively early. I'd say it's 55:45 though because it's really even if not in Squirtman's favor on small stages where uair strings and fair **** R.O.B up.

50:50
Both have kinda bad range, the punish game might just be about even since Lucas kinda hits harder but I think Squirtle's harder to combo and vice versa. Both have good mobility and relatively useful ranged attacks. Squirtle can beat PKF but also gets ****ed if he gets hit. I don't see any of these 2 having an edge tbh.

60:40
I dunno man, Squirtle's water gun can blow mines up with ease, he can duck under grabs and tranquilizers, he has a lot of tools to beat Snake's recovery (bubbles, slingjump->anything), comboing's kinda ez, he's fast enough to capitalize off of Snake blowing himself up and also he's small af so I guess it's slightly harder to sticky him? not 100% sure though

 

[FlashingFire]

I personally think Snake vs Squirtle is even or in Snake's favor. It's really hard for either character to land a clean hit on the other, since Squirtle is so mobile and Snake has a combination of defensive traps and good CC. Snake is much harder to KO though, and trades favor the beefy soldier over the light turtle. Comboing is easy for both sides, but again, Squirtle has to do a loooot of work to actually take the stock on most stages.

For now I'll say 50:50

More matchup opinions, I'll update them with reasoning later/as requested. Format is Snake:Opponent, as usual.

60:40
45:55 (honestly I think it's super close to even)
50:50 (asked Junebug about this in his AMA, he seemed to agree)
60:40
45:55
40:60
55:45
60:40
50:50
60:40
45:55
50:50
50:50
50:50
40:60
40:60
45:55
45:55
55:45
45:55
50:50
40:60
45:55
50:50
40:60
55:45
45:55
55:45
50:50
55:45
45:55
55:45

[collapse="Elaboration on some MUs from a post I made later in this thread"]Changes I would make to the Snake section:

vs
Change 3 to 1 (or maybe 2)
Bowser is surprisingly good at making Snake cry the moment he has Snake above him. Long-range aerials and tilts make landing or recovering as Snake a serious ordeal. Snake still combos the mess out of Bowser and should do at least 60% off of a single grab, but Bowser is one of the few characters that can take more punishment than Snake, meaning Snake has to extend his combos/edgeguards for a long time or net a spike to seal the deal. Bowser can eat trades pretty well too.

vs
Change -2 to 0
I remember asking Junebug in his AMA about the Snake/Diddy matchup, and he agreed that the matchup was quite even. Diddy wins neutral of course and can rack up damage effectively, but can have trouble KOing, whereas Snake's lethal punish game on a fastfaller like Diddy and myriad edgeguarding options against Diddy's Up-B even the odds.

vs
Change -1 to +1
Game&Watch is largely an anti-approach character that stuffs a lot of traditional spacing methods with his lasting disjoints. Snake doesn't really play the game that G&W thrives off of, though - he beats approaches pretty handily himself with grenades and strong OoS options, and doesn't need to go on the offensive much. Snake also has a field day comboing the paperweight, netting early kills with C4 setups and Uthrow > Fair. Recovering is admittedly quite hard as Snake, but if you go high you can often force a lot of trades that favor the much heavier Snake.

vs
Change -1 to 0
This MU is a huge combofest. Lucas likes to go in and gets rewarded if he does it right, but he gets messed up if his execution is imperfect or predictable. Both characters get great punishes off of grabs and stray hits. I don't see either character having much of an advantage over the other.

vs
Change -1 to -2
Needles destroy Snake when used properly. It's really sad. They can force approaches, negate traps, and lead into combos, all from a safe distance or from the air. Also Sheik can transform to remove C4 while still having an advantageous MU as Zelda, and then transform back after getting a solid hit in neutral.

vs
Change -1 to 0
I've played against Dad and a fair number of other Squirtles. Yeah, Squirtle runs circles around Snake in neutral, but he just has to work soooo hard to actually take a stock. Snake capitalizes harder off of openings, has effective CC options, can punish Side-B on shield (with Up-B), and benefits from trades.

vs
Change -1 to +1
I have no idea what makes anyone think this matchup is bad for Snake. Snake has superior range, similar ground mobility, and a peculiar toolset that works well against Wario's peculiar toolset (e.g. Cypher makes Wario's Dair bounce off a recovering Snake harmlessly). I also have a fair bit of experience playing against Strong Bad - I can take games off of his Wario in tournament despite him being the better overall player.[/collapse]

 

[thefifth5]

My take on Ivy.

70:30 Ivys favor 70:30 Falcons favor 60:40 Ivys favor
70:30 Ivys favor 50:50 even 70:30 Ivys favor
70:30 Falcos favor 70:30 Foxes favor 60:40 Ivys favor
80:20 Ivys favor 50:50 even 50:50 even
50:50 even 60:40 Ivys favor 70:30 Lucarios favor
60:40 Lucases favor 60:40 Ivys favor 50:50 even
70:30 Marths favor 60:40 Meta knights favor
60:40 Ivys favor 50:50 even 60:40 Ivys favor
50:50 even 70:30 Ivys favor 60:40 Pits favor
50:50 even 60:40 Samuses favor 60:40 Shieks favor
60:40 Ivys favor 60:40 Sonics favor 60:40 Squirtles favor
50:50 even 60:40 Ivys favor 70:30 Wolfs favor
50:50 Even 60:40 Ivys favor 60:40 ZSS favor
50:50 even 60:40 Ivys favor

Open to criticism.

The way this is formated, it's pretty hard to read

 

[Tomaster]

Still waiting for bowser to have a good matchup :/

 

[menotyou135]

Seriously though. Marth does not by any means lose to spacies. He definitely doesn't loose to game and watch. Game and watch has no ability to get in on him. The matchup is in Marth's favor by at least 55-45.

And once again. Marth does not lose to Diddy. It is maybe -1, but anybody who thinks it is -2 has no idea what they are talking about. More than likely it is 50-50.

 

[Saproling]

The way this is formated, it's pretty hard to read

Tried to make it better.

 

[Mumbo]

I'll mention the Yoshi matchups that I have the most experience with:

Bowser: -1
Yoshi is absolutely not +3 in this matchup, it's even at best. Yoshi has no recovery versus bowser, and bowser has plenty of options to get Yoshi offstage and large hitboxes to cover the few recovery mixups Yoshi has. Bowser, of course, also has the potential to break armor much earlier than most the rest of the cast. Although Yoshi does win the neutral, its not overwhelming to bowser like the fast characters and Yoshi does not have a reliable grab or projectile.

Charizard: +1
Yoshi can get out of most of what charizard wants to do, including his bread-and-butter up b kill off the top which Yoshi can armor through and retaliate with a down b kill whenever charizard attempts it. Yoshi lives though upthrow to pretty high percents, and charizard's are not reliable enough to knock yoshi out of jump armor unless you are a god with your tipper placement. Yoshi has a hard time fighting charizard on stage in the neutral, but he has huge combos and still lives pretty well against charizard despite his recovery nerfs.

Diddy: +1
Maybe I'm just good at this matchup because a lot of other Yoshi players and Diddy players seem to disagree with me.

Donkey Kong: -1
Yoshi v DK is kinda like Yoshi v Bowser, except DK has huge combos onstage, but has a tiny bit harder time edgegaurding yoshi. I play a lot with Noghrilla (whos already given his list in this thread) and mojohnbo, two of the last remaining good dk players.

Falco: -2
Free win if they come from melee and don't know what your character does. Free loss if they have any experience against Yoshi. All of Yoshi's aerials lose to Falco's. Yoshi has a hard time dealing with lasers, especially with a glitchy shield. Yoshi can't deal with shield pressure and has a slow roll (and also a glitched roll out of shield) and no shield grab. Yoshi can't grab falco reliably with the grab nerfs, but he needs to to get his huge combos started. Also falco's shine breaks armor at 0%. This matchup mostly comes down to trying to armor through something of falco's, hitting a nair, and either getting a techchase into grab or an edgegaurd off of it.

Ganondorf: -2
Basically a better bowser.

Ice Climbers: +2, maybe +3
Yoshi's egglay wins this matchup. Long range egglay to separate them, DJC nairplane nana offstage, popo is ez$$. alternatively, dtilt and dsmash destroy the climbers. Yoshi has the platform tricksies to not get grabbed, and even if he does get grabbed, so what?

Marth: 0
Yoshi got nerfed in some of the most relevant ways to marth: grabs and recovery. This matchup was certainly in Yoshi's favor in 3.5 but I think it's even now. There are valid arguments to make for this matchup being slightly in Yoshi's favor, but dont let anyone fool you into thinking this matchup is +2 or better for Yoshi.

Meta Knight: 0
I wrote a lot on this matchup in the MK thread. Yoshi used to be MK's worst matchup, now its even.

Peach: -3
Yoshi's second worst matchup. Yoshi can't challenge peach in the air or on the ground. Yoshi has no edgegaurds and no combo game versus peach. Yoshi has no way to deal with float or crouch cancelling (esp with the downair nerf). All yoshi can do is throw eggs, which are pretty slow. Thankfully Turnips are also pretty slow, and thats what makes this matchup not quite as bad as Zelda.

Roy: +1
Really good matchup before, not affected too bad by the Yoshi nerfs. Roy's typically stay on the ground a lot, which allows Yoshi to get easier grabs on roy than on other characters, and Yoshi has really good conversions from grab on Roy.

Toon Link: -2
Toon link has always been a hard matchup. Toon Link just way out neutral's Yoshi with projectiles, especially bombs.

Wario: 0
Yoshi's nair stuffs out Wario's side b, and Yoshi can get out of a lot of wario's stuff. Yoshi also has pretty good combos versus Wario. Yoshi can reliably challenge Wario in the air.

Wolf: +1
The easiest of the spacies since Wolf can't camp Yoshi out with lasers as effectively and Yoshi can CC the Shine. Wolf gets combod and edgegaurded way harder than Yoshi, though he does win neutral.

Zelda: -3
By far Yoshi's worst matchup. Yoshi has no way in, no combos, no edgegaurds, and cannot throw eggs because Zelda can reflect them or use her side b. Side b traps mean Yoshi can't approach from the ground and all of zelda's multi hit moves and her giant hitboxes means yoshi can't approach from the air (even with DJ armor). And like I said for peach, Yoshi lost his best anti CC tool in downair, which is now punishable on hit.

 

[Soft Serve]

And once again. Marth does not lose to Diddy. It is maybe -1, but anybody who thinks it is -2 has no idea what they are talking about. More than likely it is 50-50.

I'd like to hear your reasoning behind this, more than just "this is the way it is and people who disagree are dumb." I think Diddy beats marth 60:40, which is +2. There's a lot of nuances, like dtilt> dash back bair catching non frame perfect shield grabs and converting into side b, but roughly I think Diddy wins because their dash dance game is roughly the same speed and dash distance wise, while diddy controls more space and can force disadvantageous situations for marth on every whiffed dd> dtilt with glide toss. Marthe also has to make the first move in raw neutral, diddy controls more horizontal, has a projectile to hold space with, and has better and faster platform movement than marth. Marth probably has the advantage when diddy doesn't have a banana out, but marth doesn't have the rush down capacity to keep in diddy and prevent him from ever getting one out. Diddy doesn't have to be afraid of marth re agting peanuts back at me because it's one of the worst in the game frame wise, his forward air item throw releases the item on frame 12 and recovers on frame 24 (compared to faster characters being around 7/19 respectively). His grounded agt distance is large but shouldn't come into play often, and isn't too impact full to begin with. Punish game wise they both demolish each other.

 

[InfinityCollision]

mewtwo

Still no. Quit worrying about numbers. I'm hesitant to put numbers on most matchups even when it'd be relevant to do so because I know that I don't know. Focus on asking questions and finding solutions instead.

Not that it matters too much here, as the Mewtwo matchups seem to have barely been touched for whatever reason. Mewtwo-Ganon for example is still listed as even on the chart for whatever reason, but that's one I feel pretty safe calling in Mewtwo's favor. @ Bazkip called it +2 Mewtwo when it came up in discussion.

 

[Bazkip]

Still no. Quit worrying about numbers. I'm hesitant to put numbers on most matchups even when it'd be relevant to do so because I know that I don't know. Focus on asking questions and finding solutions instead.

Not that it matters too much here, as the Mewtwo matchups seem to have barely been touched for whatever reason. Mewtwo-Ganon for example is still listed as even on the chart for whatever reason, but that's one I feel pretty safe calling in Mewtwo's favor. @ Bazkip called it +2 Mewtwo when it came up in discussion.

It's listed as -2 for Ganon but 0 for Mewtwo, think he just forgot to change it lol.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Updated.
There are some more MUs that need to be discussed.
I'm also requesting the feedback of the following communities
****

 

[Vitriform]

Zelda: -3
By far Yoshi's worst matchup. Yoshi has no way in, no combos, no edgegaurds, and cannot throw eggs because Zelda can reflect them or use her side b. Side b traps mean Yoshi can't approach from the ground and all of zelda's multi hit moves and her giant hitboxes means yoshi can't approach from the air (even with DJ armor). And like I said for peach, Yoshi lost his best anti CC tool in downair, which is now punishable on hit.

I can't see it being anywhere near this bad for Yoshi. Abuse your good CC game. Many of Zelda's multi-hits won't break CC until higher percents, giving you an opportunity to slip in a Dtilt or Dsmash, potentially setting up a combo (or at the very least getting her off of you). You will also win a CC war against her if it comes to that, since Zelda's CC is relatively poor. If you get a grab, I believe you have guaranteed follow-ups off of Dthrow, regardless of DI. Don't go for ground combos; juggle her. Zelda hates juggles, and your huge Uair is very good at it. Neutral B (especially with a DJC) can be a good approach against a Zelda who likes to shield a lot, since it fakes an aerial, but instead command grabs her out of her shield. Also abuse DJ armor, since even Lightning Kick will struggle to move you until higher percents, and you can often reverse combo situations with your Nair. Force Zelda to respect your DJ armor, and punish her for overextending her combos.

Nayru is mediocre against egg spam, since it generally won't hit the eggs at a relevant angle. Side-B camping does beat egg spam, but egg spam isn't your optimal strategy in this matchup anyway. Nonetheless, eggs are good for edgeguarding (all the better to hit her out of the 30 frame startup on her aerial up-B) or baiting. I also think you're respecting side-B a little too much. While it's true that it's great in this matchup, you can easily eat through it with Dtilt if it's on the ground or Nair if it's in the air (and Nair will maintain its hitbox while hitting through it). DJ armor can also assist you in powering through it, at the expense of a little damage.

In what ways are you having trouble edgeguarding her? If she's near the edge of the stage, but offstage, try to Fair meteor her out of her up-B (if she uses it too close) or use Nair to knock her farther away (come up from underneath with a rising Nair to avoid Kicks). When she's far away, try to snipe her with an egg if you have time; otherwise, grab the ledge and force her to recover onstage, then punish her long endlag with an aerial, or bait her into going for the ledge (eggs are once again great for zoning her here) and quickly steal it from her.

I could see it being -1 or maybe even -2 for Yoshi, perhaps, but -3?

 

[Tomaster]

Edit: yea I was wrong, so nvm.

 

[Mumbo]

I can't see it being anywhere near this bad for Yoshi. Abuse your good CC game. Many of Zelda's multi-hits won't break CC until higher percents, giving you an opportunity to slip in a Dtilt or Dsmash, potentially setting up a combo (or at the very least getting her off of you). You will also win a CC war against her if it comes to that, since Zelda's CC is relatively poor. If you get a grab, I believe you have guaranteed follow-ups off of Dthrow, regardless of DI. Don't go for ground combos; juggle her. Zelda hates juggles, and your huge Uair is very good at it. Neutral B (especially with a DJC) can be a good approach against a Zelda who likes to shield a lot, since it fakes an aerial, but instead command grabs her out of her shield. Also abuse DJ armor, since even Lightning Kick will struggle to move you until higher percents, and you can often reverse combo situations with your Nair. Force Zelda to respect your DJ armor, and punish her for overextending her combos.

Nayru is mediocre against egg spam, since it generally won't hit the eggs at a relevant angle. Side-B camping does beat egg spam, but egg spam isn't your optimal strategy in this matchup anyway. Nonetheless, eggs are good for edgeguarding (all the better to hit her out of the 30 frame startup on her aerial up-B) or baiting. I also think you're respecting side-B a little too much. While it's true that it's great in this matchup, you can easily eat through it with Dtilt if it's on the ground or Nair if it's in the air (and Nair will maintain its hitbox while hitting through it). DJ armor can also assist you in powering through it, at the expense of a little damage.

In what ways are you having trouble edgeguarding her? If she's near the edge of the stage, but offstage, try to Fair meteor her out of her up-B (if she uses it too close) or use Nair to knock her farther away (come up from underneath with a rising Nair to avoid Kicks). When she's far away, try to snipe her with an egg if you have time; otherwise, grab the ledge and force her to recover onstage, then punish her long endlag with an aerial, or bait her into going for the ledge (eggs are once again great for zoning her here) and quickly steal it from her.

I could see it being -1 or maybe even -2 for Yoshi, perhaps, but -3?

CC doesn't help much in neutral unless you can force zelda to make bad approaches, and Zelda can way out camp Yoshi.

Yoshi does not have guaranteed followups out of downthrow, DI away and down.

You can't juggle Zelda lol? shes way too floaty and Yoshi does not have the tools to deal with that. Just jump out and come down with a teleport, which Yoshi can't punish unless he reads, and even then you have the hitbox at the end. Yoshi's "Huge" uair also has huge hurtboxes that are easy to trade with if you mash nair or neutral b or something.

Neutral b is not bad, but its really only good for 7% if you are a good masher because you get invincibility when you pop out, and again, Zelda is too floaty for Yoshi to be able to follow up reliably.

DJ armor is worthless in the matchup. If breaking armor at 33% is "struggling, then sure, lightning kicks "struggle" to break armor. If Yoshi double jumps through a multihit move (fsmash which will break armor early, upsmash, neutral b) then what? Those moves last so long, Yoshi's upward momentum from the jump take him out of the move so he's unable to even punish you in the first place. You just soak up the free damage for nothing.

Yoshi's biggest problem edgegaurding Zelda's recovery is that it's a teleport with hitboxes on startup and arrival. Going offstage for a fair is ridiculously unsafe and is the easiest way for zelda to reverse the edgegaurd on Yoshi (remember lightning kick breaks armor at 33%). Plus, you aren't even going to hit it unless you get a read, and Zelda can react to you coming offstage in the first place. Plus, no good Zelda is going to upb in range of invincible rising nair. If you meant non invincible rising nair, well, thats the easiest way for yoshi to trade and die.

This matchup is definitely -3.

 

[Boiko]

CC doesn't help much in neutral unless you can force zelda to make bad approaches, and Zelda can way out camp Yoshi.

Yoshi does not have guaranteed followups out of downthrow, DI away and down.

You can't juggle Zelda lol? shes way too floaty and Yoshi does not have the tools to deal with that. Just jump out and come down with a teleport, which Yoshi can't punish unless he reads, and even then you have the hitbox at the end. Yoshi's "Huge" uair also has huge hurtboxes that are easy to trade with if you mash nair or neutral b or something.

Neutral b is not bad, but its really only good for 7% if you are a good masher because you get invincibility when you pop out, and again, Zelda is too floaty for Yoshi to be able to follow up reliably.

DJ armor is worthless in the matchup. If breaking armor at 33% is "struggling, then sure, lightning kicks "struggle" to break armor. If Yoshi double jumps through a multihit move (fsmash which will break armor early, upsmash, neutral b) then what? Those moves last so long, Yoshi's upward momentum from the jump take him out of the move so he's unable to even punish you in the first place. You just soak up the free damage for nothing.

Yoshi's biggest problem edgegaurding Zelda's recovery is that it's a teleport with hitboxes on startup and arrival. Going offstage for a fair is ridiculously unsafe and is the easiest way for zelda to reverse the edgegaurd on Yoshi (remember lightning kick breaks armor at 33%). Plus, you aren't even going to hit it unless you get a read, and Zelda can react to you coming offstage in the first place. Plus, no good Zelda is going to upb in range of invincible rising nair. If you meant non invincible rising nair, well, thats the easiest way for yoshi to trade and die.

This matchup is definitely -3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgO8pCRGtZU

@ Vitriform

Mumbo, your lack of knowledge on how to punish Zelda is apparent.

Edit: This is 3.5, for the record. And understandably, Yoshi lost some kill power on uair, IIRC, but that just means you play the neutral a little more until it can kill.

 

[Vitriform]

CC doesn't help much in neutral unless you can force zelda to make bad approaches, and Zelda can way out camp Yoshi.

Yoshi does not have guaranteed followups out of downthrow, DI away and down.

You can't juggle Zelda lol? shes way too floaty and Yoshi does not have the tools to deal with that. Just jump out and come down with a teleport, which Yoshi can't punish unless he reads, and even then you have the hitbox at the end. Yoshi's "Huge" uair also has huge hurtboxes that are easy to trade with if you mash nair or neutral b or something.

Neutral b is not bad, but its really only good for 7% if you are a good masher because you get invincibility when you pop out, and again, Zelda is too floaty for Yoshi to be able to follow up reliably.

DJ armor is worthless in the matchup. If breaking armor at 33% is "struggling, then sure, lightning kicks "struggle" to break armor. If Yoshi double jumps through a multihit move (fsmash which will break armor early, upsmash, neutral b) then what? Those moves last so long, Yoshi's upward momentum from the jump take him out of the move so he's unable to even punish you in the first place. You just soak up the free damage for nothing.

Yoshi's biggest problem edgegaurding Zelda's recovery is that it's a teleport with hitboxes on startup and arrival. Going offstage for a fair is ridiculously unsafe and is the easiest way for zelda to reverse the edgegaurd on Yoshi (remember lightning kick breaks armor at 33%). Plus, you aren't even going to hit it unless you get a read, and Zelda can react to you coming offstage in the first place. Plus, no good Zelda is going to upb in range of invincible rising nair. If you meant non invincible rising nair, well, thats the easiest way for yoshi to trade and die.

This matchup is definitely -3.

1) DI away and down vs. Dthrow works for most characters, but Zelda is so floaty that she cannot land from Dthrow before Yoshi can mash out a DJC aerial, provided that Yoshi reads her DI correctly. This issue is exacerbated at high percents.

2) Your second point is completely inaccurate; one of Zelda's greatest weaknesses is juggling. You give Nayru way too much credit as a combo breaker. The aerial version has no invincibility, its hitboxes come out frame 8 (much slower than Luigi's Nair, for example), and it only hits to her sides. Look at the hitboxes in debug mode sometime. Nair has no knockback on the first few hits, and Uair will cut right through it with ease, since it has transcendent priority and will not clank. Like Nayru, it also doesn't have any hitboxes below Zelda. On top of that, if you use your DJ armor, neither of these moves should move you anywhere, even if you do get hit. As for other options, Zelda's Dair has abysmal range and startup time, making it hardly suited for challenging an opponent below her. This leaves her only two options for getting down: up-B and air dodge, both of which represent significant commitments and can be easily baited out. If you're getting hit by Nayru or Nair while juggling, you need to space better or use your DJ armor. It's simple as that.

3) Neutral B is good for 7% and stage positioning. The importance of that second point cannot be understated. And it puts Zelda above you. Now refer to point 2, provided that you can follow her breakout.

4) DJ is perfectly good; you just need to know where to use it. Sure, Lightning Kick breaks it fairly early, but abuse the fact that it can't break through when you're at super low percents. Try to convert into a combo. Also, don't go empty double jumping through Zelda's smashes just because you're knockback resistant. You have DJC aerials for a reason and you'll need to use them judiciously. DJC Nair will nail Zelda straight through most of her multi-hit moves (Yes, even Nayru. Just don't challenge Usmash; instead crouch under it or shield it and punish the long endlag, and avoid Fsmash).

5) You can CC the ending hitbox of teleport if she doesn't shorten (or shield) and leave her in 30 frames of endlag, or if she shortens, it has no hitbox. Again, come in from below Zelda with a rising Nair or Uair to avoid getting Kicked. You should know where the sweetspot is and whether or not she's in hitstun.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Peach matchup is even against Falcon in PM ?

LOL NO ****ING WAY



Give limits on who can give input to this list or it will become a ****show.