Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[gsninja]

Holy moly. I uh..have a confession to make...I..just couldn't... beat this Bowser...
I thought I was good but...it was so strange. The matches were close, but the only way id score hits was to be 100% correct in my spacing and decision making. Edge guarding him wasn't easy tbh. That fire breath was annoying, as was his grounded up b. Also, guarding against his moves isnt too smart usually. He breaks shields easily. Dtilt just doesnt work.

Tips?!

As far as I'm concerned, Bowser does have a slight edge in the matchup because he can kill a bit earlier than Ike AND his moves are generally faster, especially his aerials. The main thing to think about when fighting him is what you already mentioned, and that's spacing. Plus, due to how big and heavy Bowser is, UThrow/DThrow combos work especially well and it's really easy overall to hit him with any of your aerials.

Also, maybe it's just personal experience, but DTilt has been my best move to punish Bowser. It's hard to find a matchup in which DTilt isn't at least somewhat effective.

 

[Trunks159]

As far as I'm concerned, Bowser does have a slight edge in the matchup because he can kill a bit earlier than Ike AND his moves are generally faster, especially his aerials. The main thing to think about when fighting him is what you already mentioned, and that's spacing. Plus, due to how big and heavy Bowser is, UThrow/DThrow combos work especially well and it's really easy overall to hit him with any of your aerials.

Also, maybe it's just personal experience, but DTilt has been my best move to punish Bowser. It's hard to find a matchup in which DTilt isn't at least somewhat effective.

Thanks.
I usually use dtilt defensively, to stop dash graps and to space against ftilts and such. It doesn't work against bowser since his tilts and jabs and fire breath outrange it. If it does hit him though followups can be easy, but if you mess up you'll be sent flying and Bowser edge guards difficult to fight against with dtilt, fire breath, and sometimes bowser bomb.

 

[FullMoon]

Hi, Ike mains, we in the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Ike MU and we would appreciate any input from you guys so we can prepare ourselves better for the radiant hero: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ke-yoshi-3-2-3-9.369356/page-13#post-18695566

 

[Casval]

Regarding Lucario;

I was playing FG the other day and was edge guarding with Eruption to the point where the Lucario I was playing against became scared of recovering low, so they started trying to recover high.

Once they started trying that I was able to use Aether repeatedly to keep them from returning to the stage. I did it several times before allowing them to return for the sake of fun but I could have kept going seeing as how Lucario's up special is useless against Aether. Quite a beautiful set of interceptions.

I'm sure some of you may already know this but it was too funny not to share and hopefully someone learned something.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Peach can be tough. Baiting the crown still gives her free space. Otherwise, she can hit you forward, from below, and beat most of your aerials.

http://youtu.be/Z6rlnY4JXUA

Kirby also gave me some mild trouble.

http://youtu.be/B9JZRtEu9MI
http://youtu.be/9qA1XDfZWbo

I managed to clean up a little bit on the last match, though.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Peach is an issue at times with her air superiority. The two things we do have that she doesn't though is reach and power. Most of her best kill moves are in the air and require Ike to be close to connect, so Ike's spacing game is the biggest thing to use when challenging her in the air. Her aerials are fast though, so if you whiff make sure you have a way to stay out of her range. When on the ground, she is much more manageable. Her main annoyance is the turnips, though using your shield to deflect them high gives Ike the ability to catch them and use DACIT against her. That and care must be given when recovering low, as her toad counter will cause problems with Aether.

Kirby usually isn't too big of a trouble, but there are 2 things about him that are deceptive by nature. Almost all of his attacks have lingering hitboxes, and their range is longer than they look. (Though we still outspace them, but not by much.) This means that when shielding against their attacks, it will always need to be held longer than our instincts tell us. D-air, dash attack, n-air, d-smash are all examples of needing to shield longer before trying anything. This has gotten me into trouble a few times, and I have to remind myself to unlearn my shielding habits when fighting him. (Which is similar to Luigi, another one I have to change my shield, side step habits against) The range part means that when you think you've outspaced the move, you often aren't far away enough. This is mostly the case with his f-smash, f-air and jab combo. (Though I'm sure there maybe others) Lastly, never challenge Kirby when he's in the air above you and you are below with a smash, as his rock drop is immune to damage. You'll never beat it, all you can do is stay out of the way of the drop and abuse Kirby's ridiculously slow lag when returning from the transformation.

 

[Arrei]

As an addendum to Kirby, an armored Eruption actually is strong enough to pierce his Stone ability. It has few uses beyond getting hilarious kills on Kirby players who don't know that, but it's great fun to pull off, haha.

 

[Casval]

As an addendum to Kirby, an armored Eruption actually is strong enough to pierce his Stone ability. It has few uses beyond getting hilarious kills on Kirby players who don't know that, but it's great fun to pull off, haha.

this is great to know. the only trouble is pulling it out before kirby drops

 

[Mario766]

If he's using stone, it's usually telegraphed enough to punish unless you're committed to an action.

I'd just not hard read when he's above you, as down air and stone are hard to get around for us. I'd bait and punish.

 

[Arrei]

Yeah, the better option is just to evade him and attack. But I pulled it off twice against a Kirby by knocking him high offstage, then charging Eruption at the edge when it seemed very unwise. He decided to "punish" me with Stone and, well.

Boom.



Also, Samus' Uair -> Uair -> Screw Attack combo, is that possible to SDI out of?

 

[Robin1613]

it depends on where shes hitting you with her first two uairs and the % you're at. i've found it to be escapeable if the uair isn't initiated with you right between her feet and the rest of her lower half.

 

[Casval]

So something I desperately need help with is dealing with people who spam projectiles in FG mode. Namely, Link and Pit (who also spams side b).

anyone playing these characters online stand at one edge and create a wall with arrows and force you to approach haphazardly with short hops which land you into grab range. Happens with Falco too. Not a big problem with Fox since there's no knockback and I just take the damage for the rush. But Falco, Link, and Pit are some of my biggest weaknesses.

How does Ike deal with that?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't play online

That is how you fix that.

Seriously, lag makes those things work.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As far as I'm concerned, Bowser does have a slight edge in the matchup because he can kill a bit earlier than Ike AND his moves are generally faster, especially his aerials. The main thing to think about when fighting him is what you already mentioned, and that's spacing. Plus, due to how big and heavy Bowser is, UThrow/DThrow combos work especially well and it's really easy overall to hit him with any of your aerials.

Also, maybe it's just personal experience, but DTilt has been my best move to punish Bowser. It's hard to find a matchup in which DTilt isn't at least somewhat effective.

I think Ike wins this matchup actually. Bowser has to be really respectful of Ike's autocancel F-air disjoint, and Ike's faster Jab lets him outbox Bowser. Eruption edgeguard especially after throws is REALLY good against Bowser (he can only recover high to avoid it if you react correctly, and Eruption edgeguard as we know kills people at like 50-70 easy), and Bowser can't juggle Ike nearly as well as most other characters with anything besides grab (keep in mind, reads with Counter can be very gamechanging in this matchup), meanwhile Ike actually can cover most of Bowser's landing options pretty easily with SideB and disjointed U-air/U-tilt.

Against Link, all you need to do to beat him most of the time is shield and punish, do empty jump grab mixups to pressure his shield, and wait for him to get desperate to grab in neutral before making bigger reads that eventually kill him. Link's throws are the worst in the game, so you shouldn't be afraid to shield against him to force him to take risks to fight you. Not sure on a ratio for Ike vs Link, I don't think it's worse than even simply because Link's grab reward is just outstandingly awful.

 

[Arrei]

If not attempting to (power)shield the projectiles, I just use full hops to get over those. The endlag on projectiles is high enough that I can just fastfall down and approach normally once I see them release the shot, or I can double jump and go for an Nair if they're reckless enough to keep trying to shoot me once I'm too close. For Pit, I prefer to shield. For Link, I prefer to jump, since his charged arrow is difficult to powershield online, but if he attempts to use it that gives me more time to close the gap.

 

[Aquasition]

Against Link, all you need to do to beat him most of the time is shield and punish, do empty jump grab mixups to pressure his shield, and wait for him to get desperate to grab in neutral before making bigger reads that eventually kill him. Link's throws are the worst in the game, so you shouldn't be afraid to shield against him to force him to take risks to fight you. Not sure on a ratio for Ike vs Link, I don't think it's worse than even simply because Link's grab reward is just outstandingly awful.

Actually, is it even possible to punish Link's spaced n-airs? Also, that Jab 1 of his is a real pain. You can't really use Nair to space against Link, due to that move's ridiculous range, speed, and follow-up possibilities, like Jab 1-> Grab, or Jab 1-> Dsmash, for example. In fact, I find punishing Link to be as nearly as bad as trying to punish Sonic, because they both don't suffer much end lag from the majority of their moves.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If not attempting to (power)shield the projectiles, I just use full hops to get over those. The endlag on projectiles is high enough that I can just fastfall down and approach normally once I see them release the shot, or I can double jump and go for an Nair if they're reckless enough to keep trying to shoot me once I'm too close. For Pit, I prefer to shield. For Link, I prefer to jump, since his charged arrow is difficult to powershield online, but if he attempts to use it that gives me more time to close the gap.

Don't let Link charge arrow at long range. Simple. Force the fight in midrange where Link literally can't hurt you without dashgrab and be content with shielding a lot in midrange and waiting for him to make a mistake. There is not a single damn thing Link can do in midrange that can't be reacted to and potentially punished, except for his extremely risky and low reward dashgrab (and Bomb Toss, but that by itself is also a fair commitment).

Actually, is it even possible to punish Link's spaced n-airs? Also, that Jab 1 of his is a real pain. You can't really use Nair to space against Link, due to that move's ridiculous range, speed, and follow-up possibilities, like Jab 1-> Grab, or Jab 1-> Dsmash, for example. In fact, I find punishing Link to be as nearly as bad as trying to punish Sonic, because they both don't suffer much end lag from the majority of their moves.

Just shield and Jab out of shield against Link. Any time he strikes a shield with anything that isn't a Bomb, he puts himself in a very bad position because he generally does not have very fast pressure options. Link shouldn't be using aerials much against Ike due to Ike's aerials having better range than Link's. The only moderately difficult part of the matchup is knowing when to do empty jump grabs to pressure Link for shielding, but given Ike's options from throws are leagues better than Link's, the advantage you get from successfully breaking Link's defenses more than justifies the risk.

Your goal against Link is to force him into relying on his terrible grab to even deal any damage to you. Really, it's all about frustrating him due to his lack of safe offensive options in midrange. Don't feel forced to approach. Just focus on standing outside of his Jab range and watching what he does. He will eventually have to respond to this in some way that leaves him open, and you can come out ahead in the defensive waiting game due to your superior throws which can leave Link in situations where he gets juggled or gimped to death, while Link in contrast has nothing out of throws except for a U-throw KO around 170ish.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How does one go about playing against an Olimar? What do we need to watch out for in particular and what are our best attack options?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Ike users, Rosalina is currently analyzing Ike at her Match-Up Analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Ike match-up, Ike will be analyzed until the end of 3/18.

 

[Mario766]

I was going to.

Then I saw the first post for the match-up and cringed so hard I can't bring myself to post.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hey @ PyroTakun , add this to the first post in nice, large, bold text:

"ATTENTION ANYBODY FROM OTHER BOARDS ASKING US TO TALK ABOUT MUS ON THEIR CHARACTER BOARD:

If you already have a bunch of people going 7-3 in non-Ike character's favour, don't even bother asking us to participate. Your board is too far gone to attempt having a real discussion with."

 

[Trunks159]

Hey @ PyroTakun , add this to the first post in nice, large, bold text:

"ATTENTION ANYBODY FROM OTHER BOARDS ASKING US TO TALK ABOUT MUS ON THEIR CHARACTER BOARD:

If you already have a bunch of people going 7-3 in non-Ike character's favour, don't even bother asking us to participate. Your board is too far gone to attempt having a real discussion with."

Kinda depressing but it doesn't matter. Its rare that anyone reads the first post...

 

[PyroTakun]

Hey @ PyroTakun , add this to the first post in nice, large, bold text:

"ATTENTION ANYBODY FROM OTHER BOARDS ASKING US TO TALK ABOUT MUS ON THEIR CHARACTER BOARD:

If you already have a bunch of people going 7-3 in non-Ike character's favour, don't even bother asking us to participate. Your board is too far gone to attempt having a real discussion with."

Uh, I'll try to find a way to word that nicer.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Weird question, but anyone know how to deal with Meta Knight's dash attack? Only thing I can do is land, face the opposite way, let him attack through my shield, and punish with DTilt. It's incredibly spammable since it's hard to punish, kills ALL of your jumping attempts due to the high hitbox, beats out your DTilt, and punishes you for landing wrong.

 

[Trunks159]

Weird question, but anyone know how to deal with Meta Knight's dash attack? Only thing I can do is land, face the opposite way, let him attack through my shield, and punish with DTilt. It's incredibly spammable since it's hard to punish, kills ALL of your jumping attempts due to the high hitbox, beats out your DTilt, and punishes you for landing wrong.

I'm a Metaknight main and the only thing Ike can do is respect it, or retreating ftilt (tilted low).PP may also be useful. Metaknight will juggle you for days if you simply don't respect him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Does Jab clank with it?

 

[Xuan Wu]

Guys, I have started the Link vs. Ike thread over at the Link forum. Any discussion concerning the match-up would be appreciated. I am curious to see whether or not this match-up, from SSBB, is still in Ike's favor, considering how much both Link and Ike have changed since then.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-link-vs-ike.395444/#post-18785911

^-^

 

[Trunks159]

Uh yeah, any advice on the Luigi matchup would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Arrei]

What are you having trouble with? All I've got to share is a few tidbits. Always be prepared to shield if you're under him - like Mario, his sex kick and cyclone can throw out extremely quick hitboxes to land directly on your head, making it difficult to punish their landings. His trait of being pushed farther when shielding also makes it very safe to approach with aerials, so it's preferable to approach from the air rather than from the ground, but be mindful of how quick his Fair is.


I'm looking for tips for approaching Toon Link, myself. I've gradually learned to not attack him with an aerial from the front because his hookshot is just too fast and long-ranged, but fighting him really is a pain between that, dodging his projectiles, and his fast aerials.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Uh yeah, any advice on the Luigi matchup would be greatly appreciated.

I lost my first round to Limbs at Olympus because he hit me with a random misfired Green Missile. If you're directly sideways from him at a distance, DODGE. It could be the one that sends you flying.

 

[Trunks159]

His landings and fire balls are annoying. I suppose more discipline is needed.

 

[critter17]

Against Luigi, you have to space with aerials and ftilt. Lots of Luigi players like to chase their fireball and mixup their approaches that way. Jabs aren't a bad option but they aren't always safe if the Luigi player is fast enough. Since Luigi relies on grab combos, try baiting his grab and punish with your own. Ftilt or Dtilt can work too. Once you start a combo on him, space yourself so that you're out of his range but can him with yours.

TL;DR: Space with Ragnell the entire time. Once Luigi is off stage he shouldn't be much of a threat.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Honestly, I feel Ike's top 3 bad matchups are Sheik, Little Mac, and Olimar. Fox may be #4, but he's honestly the last of Ike's troubles. He has plenty of advantages over the rest of the roster that he's not suffering from the detriments he did in Brawl.

 

[Mario766]

Ike has nothing to fear about Little Mac. Fox and Diddy are harder match-ups by far.

 

[Arrei]

Little Mac's dangerous if you're not careful, but it's easy enough to chuck him off the side at about 50-60% and send him flying with an FSmash or something else, and if you get an opportunity to send him offstage even earlier than that with a Bair or something, that's all the better. If he tries to fake you out and Slip Counter instead of recovering, you can even purposely trigger it when he's gone too low to actually strike you with the counter and he'll just fly under the stage where he can't recover.

Come to think of it, it might even be super easy to catch Mac with an offstage Aether and spike him down while you grab onto the ledge.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ike has nothing to fear about Little Mac. Fox and Diddy are harder match-ups by far.

Little Mac punishes your punishes. He messes up, you attack, he blocks/dodges/attacks before you do. His hitbox-shifting FSmash renders your spacing game useless when you try and Bair. He has great range despite his small size and can build up damage and kill relatively quickly. Also, his KO punch is guaranteed if you're facing someone extremely good.

Not to mention the inescapable DTilt-KO Punch combo. If you're at 0%, he can DTilt-DTilt-KO Punch you, which is a guaranteed kill.

 

[Arrei]

You just have to figure out what you can and can't punish. FSmash pushes you too far to punish unless you manage to powershield it and DSmash is too quick on block, so play the baiting game with aerials. Jump away instead of committing to an attack to make him less confident his attacks will land, be ready to respond to his jabs to cover his dash attacks, after trying a frontal offensive a couple of times start jumping over him as he blocks and hit him with Bair to prevent getting punished, set up gaps in your defenses on purpose for Counter.

The important thing here is that getting damaged isn't the main danger against Mac - while still dangerous because of his smashes, the big thing you want to prevent is letting him get a KO Punch up because Ike really can't knock that thing off without putting himself in major danger, so kill him EARLY. Starting from roughly 30% you're going to want to lure him towards the sides then react as soon as you get a jab combo, grab, Fair, Bair, Ftilt, or Counter that sends him off the side. Don't stand too close to the edge lest he punch your toes with his uppercut or Haymaker your face, but all you need is that one last hit to seal the stock, made all the easier by Uppercut's inability to ledgesnap and Haymaker's garbage range.

FSmash will guarantee he's gone, and Eruption may be the easier to hit him with, but unless you sent him relatively high off stage so that he's far away but still able to make it back you probably won't have time to charge it enough to kill - it will, however, send him back into the air, most likely with no double jump in reserve, so chase after him with Fair or Bair to kill him. There's a good chance Mac will go for a last ditch Slip Counter in this predicament, so stay your hand for just a moment to see what he does - which can also double as baiting an airdodge. USmash may accomplish the same thing as Eruption if you're unsure you can avoid a Haymaker, as well, but I'm not sure the forward hitbox can hit him easily when he's going low. I prefer just going for the FSmash, myself, unless I happen to get a back throw on him right at the edge at ~60% - I'm not 100% sure but I believe that's enough time for Eruption to kill him, since he's so light, and there's nothing he can do in that situation, and even if it's not a kill at that damage range the grab probably filled up his KO meter and the Eruption will get rid of it.

KO Punch also can't kill Ike after just two Dtilts from 0%, I'm pretty sure - 16% isn't enough to take down a heavyweight.

 

[Mario766]

Ike easily edgeguards Mac. Shield into d tilt covers low and fair read covers high. You have to play around his smssmashes and jab in neutral on stage, and watch out for mix-ups.

 

[Trunks159]

You just have to be patient with Little Mac tbh. If you play really defensive, eventually an opportunity will awaken. Also remember FD isn't the map you should be playing against him on.

Against Luigi, you have to space with aerials and ftilt. Lots of Luigi players like to chase their fireball and mixup their approaches that way. Jabs aren't a bad option but they aren't always safe if the Luigi player is fast enough. Since Luigi relies on grab combos, try baiting his grab and punish with your own. Ftilt or Dtilt can work too. Once you start a combo on him, space yourself so that you're out of his range but can him with yours.

TL;DR: Space with Ragnell the entire time. Once Luigi is off stage he shouldn't be much of a threat.

I rarely use ftilt tbh. Luigi takes precise spacing and a careful understanding of what you can and cannot punish...it seems...

 

[chaos_Leader]

Hey guys, we'd like to discuss the Lucario vs Ike MU over at the Ike boards. Any help and input would be appreciated

http://smashboards.com/threads/prepare-yourself-vs-lucario-ike-match-up-thread.372316/page-9

I Think I can be of some help here, as I use both Ike and Lucario.

In my experiences, it's kind of a weird matchup.

Ike has the capacity to really clean up vs. Lucario, to apply pressure, stack damage fast, lay traps and kill early before ludicrous-aura really becomes a factor. Thing is, all that applies once Ike can get into sword swinging range.

When I'm using Lucario vs. a good Ike, I'm generally doing everything I can to force Ike to approach, and then interfering with the approach to open up otherwise risky punish options and lay down the damage. It's a very dangerous game of cat/mouse, where my Lucario is playing very safely, very conservatively, using the zoning and spacing tools to keep Ike at arms length

Conversely, when I'm using Ike vs. Lucario, I tend to play very proactively/aggressively. That is, I bring Ike into range quickly, maneuver around the zoning tools if Lucario is using them, and generally play a relentless pressure game, since I know that's where Lucario tends to struggle

Overall, I'm actually quite comfortable on either side of this matchup. I'm perfectly comfortable beating the snot out of opposing Lucarios with Ike's scary powerful sword, and perfectly comfortable throwing aura sphere-shaped problems into Ike's path and making him stumble. Though my opinions might be more to my understanding and knowledge of both characters than inherent advantages/disadvantages. ie: I know how I can use each of these characters to take advantage of the others' weaknesses, and how to avoid playing to the other's strengths.

It's hard to say how I'd rate the matchup. I personally would say it's either 50/50 or 55/45 one way or the other. Ike causes all the same problems to Lucario that the hard-hitting heavyweights do (early kills mitigating the threat of ludicrous aura), but with considerably less maneuverability/hurtbox issues than say, Ganondorf, Donkey Kong or Bowser (the disjointed hitbox of sword really helps Ike's case here). That said, Lucario can still run an annoying interference/zoning routine against Ike. If Lucario has been playing a smart game and tacking on lots of damage on Ike, he won't need a whole lot of Aura buildup to get the KO anyway, so it becomes even more imperative that Ike not leave himself open.