Piklopedia - The Olimar Matchup Thread (1st ed. complete, open discussion)

[koken]

A very important thing I remembered just now, at lower % (like 0 ~ 20) Yoshi's Nair comes up before our Fair after the Dthrow combo and extends longer time.
A friend of mine who mains Yoshi (he wins almost every online tournament) does that everytime we play and screwed-up me.

(I'm not quite sure how the word/concept of screwed-up is used, but I know the meaning. So please someone teach me that xD).

 

[Myran]

Alright I'm a little late on this since yesterday was much busier than I anticipated so sorry about that. Either way let's get into it, Ryu!

Ryu is one of those characters that you have to respect in almost all cases. He has long lasting hard hitting moves than can kill easily, and low commit moves to use in close quarters. What you wanna do is the usual spacing with side-b and pivot grabs, but abuse the ridiculous amount of lag he will get from hitting Pikmin on him. The only thing to watch out for is how long the moves can stay out. Furthermore you need to be weary of his shoryuken which he can use to break lower percent strings. Honestly you wanna fight him like you fight any hard hitting melee character, force him to lag and abuse it as well as his lack of range. For his tastumaki a good purple side-b onto his head should interrupt it. When trying to gimp him offstage I'd say the best way to go about it would be to use a dair since dsmash on the ledge will pretty much always lose to shoryuken. I'd say it's probably an even MU or maybe slightly Olimar's favor. Ryu has strong kill power and ways to connect it. The main thing holding him back is a lack of neutral vs Olimar.

 

[Neutricity]

Greetings from the Ryu boards. Pikmin die to nearly every single move Ryu throws out but there is still hope for Alph/Olimar.
Please watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1iQZvGk1w4

 

[Myran]

Pikmin dying isn't really an issue due to contrary believe lol. If anything it helps us get punishes.

 

[Indexxical!]

(I'm not quite sure how the word/concept of screwed-up is used, but I know the meaning. So please someone teach me that xD).

"Screwed" can be used in a multitude of ways, but 'screwed me up" is the correct way to use the saying. The reason for this is that you need the person in question (in this case it would be you) to be acknowledged immediately after your verb.

I'm no teacher, but I believe sentence structure normally has the verb (screwed) before the noun (me) in most cases when alleging to an action that has happened or will happen.

Examples: Fight (v) me(n)!

Prepare (v) yourself (n)!

Rawr(interjection)!

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Yoshi and Ryu matchups is now closed. Thanks for all the responses!

is a disadvantageous matchup.
is a slightly advantageous matchup, though he might be higher up on priority for re-discussion due to the few amount of opinions on him.

------------------------

Discussion 5 - Fruits and Vegetables



Peach Frame Data
PAC-MAN Frame Data

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Peach)

Run away and throw Pikmin. You have to respect like all of her moves. Get some purples into your line as well, they can mess up her aerial pressure.

A friend of mine plays some Peach. My general game plan is pretty standard. Make her approach by throwing Pikmin at her. Peach can be pretty aggressive, but she generally needs turnips to be very effective/approach. Turnip pulls can be punished by Pikmin throw. Floating can be punished by Pikmin Throw. Use purples to mount approaches. Down throw setplay for days. Watch out for her big forward air. It can kill early and has some armor iirc. It's a generally safe/strong move that will likely be thrown out a lot. Stay outside her effective range (about where down smash/float nair/down tilt comes out) and use disjoints on forward smash, fair, etc. to keep her at bay. Just generally respect her moves, some have disjointed range (dash attack especially, which has 2 hits btw) and do Olimar things. She can get feisty offstage with float aerials, but recover low, she cannot go too far down after you. It seems very doable, maybe even in Oli's favor. It needs more testing though.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (CAPS-MAN)

Yes! Pacman is another great example. Pretty sure you can actually slide close to the maximum distance of the stage while your pikmin remains in place behind or in front of the hydrant when you grab them. It might not be the most practical tech, but damn does it look cool when done properly.

I'll send you friend request Myran. I'd love to play some Oli ditto's with other people who main him :D

Also, if a Pacman player tries to drop a hydrant on you via the air while you are in the air directly below them, you can use a purple pikmin to launch it straight back up at them.

I only feel like against Pac-Man and R.O.B. you have to be more careful with your side B as pikmin can attach on Pac-Man's fruits or R.O.B's gyro. I guess the fruits can be cancelled with smash attacks, but haven't played much against Pac-Man to be honest. The gyro of R.O.B. can definitely be nullified with gyro, so I expect it works the same for Pac-Man's fruits.

I can somehow see where the issue with FD is, but Duck Hunt should cancel the fruit game of Pac-Man if you're using the ducks as some sort of "shield" for the fruits while Pikmin fly pass the ducks. The purple Pikmin hits the duck while still flying through it. Of course it's not that easy to use the ducks effectively as a shield, but it's definitely an option to consider sometimes. Also the plattforms give you ways to escape from the fruits easily.

Hmm I feel that smashville is much worse for us in the pacman match up than FD. If the Pacman literally camps the platform he can have any fruit out at any time without much pressure at all.

I love megaman, pacman, Rob, because I enjoy grabbing their items and running away the whole game, you can rack up damage from pikmin throw it's hilarious
Also killing ness with a throw is satisfying I'm always like "how you like my kill throw B****!"

Discussion will be closed on Saturday, November 28.

EDIT: Is the links to the discussion prompts in the Archived Discussion spoiler working correctly for anybody? It seems to only link to the first discussion prompt (Sheik and ZSS).

 

[Splebel]

I don't usually fight Olimar. I tend to lose against good Olimars but I chalk that up to match-up inexperience than an advantage. Pikmin sometimes latch onto Pac-Man's fruit and that can be and advantage for Pac-Man but Olimar's smashes nullify the fruit and keep the hitbox. They can also go far and so I tend to get hit by it. I would be cautious with Pikmin throw when Pac-Man has a key because he can punish it, except maybe the purple one but I'm not sure. Pac-Man can also put a trampoline under the spawn point to ruin your invincibility so you will have to fight as Solomar for a bit. I won't give a ratio or an opinion because I don't know.

 

[Angbad]

Uhhh will say more later, but peach is a strong disadvantage and pacman is even or slight advantage.

And Ryu is most definitely even. I've played Trela for a combined few hours now in the mu. We both think it's even.

 

[Blue Banana]

I might change the overall difficulty of the Ryu MU to be even once we're done with the turnip and fruit MUs. I haven't played it much myself, but I'd think with the amount of reward Ryu gets on hit, Olimar would only have a very slight advantage at best.

Do you have anything to say about the matchup other than what Myran and koken said?

 

[koken]

Peach

It's somehow a pain in the.. ankle (sounded funnier in my head than here xP).
Basically this MU is: stay calm, approach wisely, throw pikmin and hit.

This girl has a tremendous aerial game that will prioritize every single one of our moves and they will abuse that in very different ways.
Peach players usually likes to float forward and backwards, doing a Fair and waiting for your dummy approach to Fair'ing you again, because the floating skills allows them to do at least 2 or 3 Fair without falling. Good thing of that is there is a good window of time to punish the Fairs so be extra cautious over there.

She has hard to escape strings and they will throw you in the air easily. Some examples are:
Jab jab, Dtilt.
(Floating) Dair to Fair / Fair to Side B.
Dash attack into Uair / Fair.

The vegetables are a thing to keep in mind too, not much really because I never remember the properties of each one and I don't lose because of that (my memory is so bad ._.). But If YOU can do it, would be extra helpful and I envy you jajaja.
The one you MUST know/recognize is the breaking shield item (Mr. Saturn it's the name? I'm not sure). If she has one don't use the shield at all and be very, very careful.
Don't get panic because it will affect heavily her aerial game and this is the time for pikmin spamming. Remember, don't shield too much.

Her edge guard is very versatile; she can do it on the stage, at same level of the stage in the air and under a few inches of the ledge trying to gimp you. By the way, remember her Fair power, it's tremendous for us when trying to recovery.

Her recovery UpB may hurt your gimp intentions, just like Mario's UpB it's an awful trade to go. Keep that in mind when she is recovering after chasing your way back to the platform.

Don't ever forget she has a counter, but in our advantage it produce a lot of ending lag, so it's a little bit weird or hard to see that being spammed from this players.

For me is like 50-50. I don't know why but I can't easily defeat a Peach consitentely.

Fundamentals: Latch and wait, avoid aerials, gimp responsibly. Calculate distance and wait for her Fair to end before attacking in the air. Try to keep things on the ground as much as possible. Recognize the shield breaker item.​

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion will move on to another set of matchups tomorrow. If you have any sort of input on the current matchups, please do so.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Peach and PAC-MAN matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

is a disadvantageous matchup.
is an even matchup.

Both of these are tentative due to the low amount of responses.

EDIT: Also changed overall matchup to even.

------------------------

Discussion 6 - Pokémon



Pikachu Frame Data
Lucario Frame Data
Greninja Frame Data

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Pikachu)

One of the big things we can do to punish pikachu sorta like the sonic matchup is having a pikmin latched onto him, especially when he uses a fair and a pikmin is latched it lags them alot and we can go in and punish,somewhere way back when I think Myran said another big thing to do is "Side B camp power shield fsmash can stop some of his quick attack approaches, yellow pikmin stop his thunderjolts".I read somewhere that its possible for perfectly spaced nair/jab/tils can beat out his quick attack , but I havent tested it myself to prove this theory but if it true, then it would be pretty nice, I guess lol. Using fsmash in general makes it so that pikachu can approach you from in front of you with his quick attack. His pika thunder jolts are actually like mario's fireballs, they have punishable startup lag on it so it's not that good like it was in brawl imo. Also to keep in mind, Esam wrote himself for fighting against pikachu,
"When Pikachu grabs you at high %, you are always supposed to DI away to avoid a thunder follow-up. U-throw you can technically DI either way to avoid immediate thunder spike -> Blue Thunder death combo, but for D-throw you MUST DI forward. Since you can’t really mash, Pikachu can get a lot of damage through Pummels and throw for stage positioning ANYWAY, but PLEASE if you react to the grab, DI forward. "

The most experience I've personally gotten from the pikachu matchup is from Anther's ladder so I personally feel like its 50/50 as Pikachu has very good combo potential but its still hard for him to actually get in, but getting out once he gets in, I thing its best to mix up our recovery because facing a good edgeguarding pikachu is difficult , he wins the air game, we win the ground game.

If there is Pikmin on Pikachu and he QAs he will slide away. I believe it has to be certain colors, I haven't test it to thoroughly for a definitive answer on which. By slide I mean when the Pikachu lands from the QA they slide away.

In general the optimal line up consists of at least a purple and a yellow. The yellow when you throw it either onto the thunder jolt projectile or onto pikachu himself to neutralize it from coming out in the first place, while the purple timing, for obvious reasons, pushing pikachu back. (Any pikmin can stuff his thunder jolts and just throwoing them out is actually useful to prevent him from thunderjolt camping and running away with quick attack.)

In this matchup powersheidling needs to be on point. If not shielding in general is the safest option vs his quick attack but watch what he likes to mix up with afterwards and where he chooses to land alot when he uses quick attack. Much of this matchup is having dmg from the pikmin side B, when pikachu decides to kill the pikmin on him that is your opportunity to hit him, walling him out, and punishing his landings.
This is a given in most combo strings on characters by DI"ing up and away is optimal. Pikmin side B latched onto pikachu hella lags his fair and backair too. Jumping out of combos(mixing up with air dodge of course dont be too obvious), drifting away from potential followups, whistling his single hit move are also highly recommended.
Be smart when he edgeguards you as pikachu has one of the best edgeguarding options and tools in the game aside from sheik.

Quick attack is beaten by moves with long-lasting hitboxes. Although its hitbox is only 6 frames, I find that dtilt is good for stuffing a Pikachu that likes to QA into you on the ground if you can predict it. Nair is best for the air.

I always try to have a pikmin on Pikachu. In addition to what Gucci Fairy mentioned with how they stuff thunder jolt, stuck pikmin have a weird interaction with QA, which causes Pikachu to slide further on the ground, messing up his spacing and allowing for a punish.

Overall, I think we can outcamp him, but if you're jumping and tossing to get over thunderjolts, try to get back to the ground ASAP. His rushdown game is good, but if you can shut down QA and make him tentative about using it, he loses an important option. Then it's about respecting the rushdown and jabbing/purple tossing to get him off you.

On top of what the two above me said I'd recommend also trying to read his quick attack patterns to get preemptive punishes. Especially on stages like BF where Pikachu players like to platform cancel the QA. Standard walling strats with well spaced pivot grabs and smashes should be able to catch him, and make sure those shields are on point.

Spoiler: Old Quote (Lucario)

I mean, he can still do all the same things, you just gotta give him a lotta respect. I recommend keeping a purple at 80%^ and really paying attention to his habits so you can try to kill him early with a hard read, I know it's kind of obvious but killing him early is key and it's kind of hard to gimp Lucario.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Greninja)

For Greninja Just keep in mind that most of his kill moves mainly are very laggy(Upsmash/down smash/side smash/fair) besides his fully charged water shurikan but even then they have a decent amount of range so dont neccesarily count them out. Upsmash sweetspotted right above his head can kill you very surprisngly early so becareful if you chose to nair into him and do that nair to utilt/upsmash combo.

First thing that comes to my mind would be him catching us with his random fair's he tends to get them when you roll towards him and you get punished.
Barring that, Basically its a bread and butter thing where your basic side B spam/Pivot his landings and approaches/powershielding/mixing it up goes along way. When he uses his hydro pump tho, be smart about it so when you happen to recover high and fall into helpless he can use it to gimp you..it happens. Also when he uses his shadow sneak its very punishable always keep an eye out for that shadow and punish accordingly (IE power shield fsmash)
He may try to use his counter , and just to note, a pikmin latched onto him can activate it. Its not one of the best counters so you can literally just shield it..

Beware of his jab , I'd say thats one of his biggest tools he will be using alot in this matchup besides sh water shurikans,and sh nairs, spacing yourself really is a good option to consider to avoid close combat jabs anyways,but if he does the entire jab you could either sdi out of it or just spam the up b to get out and then nair/dair to punish. As far as the nair approach punish when he lands with pivot smashes/grabs, always keep at least one pikmin there latched to keep the pressure on him.

When recovering high he can use upair to juggle you and becomes a kill move around the 100 + range assuming rage is a factor so always mix up your recoveries.
Always use purples to disrupt his approaches and his game in general. He can recover using the side b shadow (vertical recovery) then UP hydro pump so keep that in mind if you decide to chase him off the stage.
Edge guards would include his shadow sneak and mixups with that as well keep that in mind..

Don't ever be stationary.

Thats all I remember for now as far as that matchup goes.

Olimar/Greninja is a bit of a rare MU so there's not much in the way of experience for us to talk about. From my experience against the good Olimars in Anther's the MU seemed even after I started to learn how it worked but that's pretty much all we have.

But by the way most good Greninja players won't charge the Shadow Sneak while you're on the ground as it's much better as mix-up option that's used to fake opponents out. He can charge it when you're offstage though and Shadow Sneak is a very efficient edgeguarding tool.

Discussion will be closed on December 5, 2015.

 

[Indexxical!]

| Lucario

Right off the bat loses the ability to spam his aura ball as heavily and if he's very unfamiliar with the MU, won't know that latched pikmin (of any color) will disable the ball immediately, setting you up for whatever you want.

Lucario does have a great recovery and decent combo game, so this match-up might be to Olimar's disliking. Added to that is the fact that pikmin's strengths play right into Lucario's as well, so I'd keep some blues and purples handy for when rage becomes a problem for your lightness.

I don't fight good Lucarios ever, but I know that when played correctly, Olimar should have a pretty difficult time. I think if spaced properly though, you shouldn't be getting grabbed by his side-b.

All in all, I think this MU is not in our favor.

 

[Myran]

I'd disagree, and call it even. Lucario doesn't have any efficient ways to approach without mixing up how he comes at us. His recovery is easy to punish on reaction, and you can usually force him to recover high or low based off sheer conditioning and consistent dsmash on the ledge. I'd say the only thing that equalizes it is that if you don't secure the kill somewhat fast it can get out of hand since his command grab kills. That makes holding shield even less viable at higher percents. Also he can counter our side-b and it's annoying to punish, you usually have to respect it.

 

[Angiance]

Get pika'd, Oliboys!!!

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Not super familiar with the the Olimar matchup, but I can toss out a couple tricks I do know.

1: While uncharged Water Shuriken will clank with pikmin, fully charged will go through them. This means fully charged WS needs to be shielded or avoided, as it's slow speed also makes it hard to dodge through.
2: Since blue pikmin are immune to water damage, you're liable to end up with more of them than other colors since it's harder for greninja to kill them.
3: Attaching pikmin to Greninja is a little tricky. The damage will let him use substitute at any time one is attached, and unlike most counters he can use it as an approach (as it snaps to your position if close enough). Not saying attaching pikmin is bad, just that Olimar is one of, like, half a dozen characters that actually has to watch out for substitute.

Over all I could see this being slightly in Greninja's favor (Greninja has to play this matchup a bit differently than most, but his gimmicks work really well against Olimar), but the Greninja boards have it listed as a 50:50 and I don't have the matchup experience to dispute this.

 

[Empire~]

Heavily in Olimar's favour. Lucario gets damage from grabs. If we want to grab you we'll be running into pikmin. If Lucario gets to high %, as mentioned before any pikmin will trade its life for any % aura sphere, so it's almost impossible to hit you with one of those. Your frame data is better, especially if you use jab as a 'get off me' kind of tool as Lucario has nothing faster than 6 on the ground as opposed to your 4. Your smashes are notoriously good, and spamming them will end up taking Lucario's stock (or a blue pikmin throw) before Lucario can use aura.

 

[Myran]

My best friend plays Greninja, so I know a lot of the tricks. I'd say it's Olimar's favor maybe like 6:4. Greninja is combo food and dies easily, as well as having an pretty easy to hit up-b. His full charged shuriken can be power shielded by running into it and shielding at the right time, you can then jump fair or grab to punish Greninja if he approaches. It mainly comes down to not letting Greninja get in on you, since he's fast he'll try to catch you when you short hop or something in the mid range distance. Just be weary of how you move/commit in that range, and it's pretty easy after that. Also lag him like crazy with side-b, it makes most of his attacks unsafe. Also whistle is amazing as always, so do that a lot. Whistling both hits of upsmash into your own fsmash just feels so satisfying.

 

[Triburos]

On topic of Lucario, I'd say it's in the Captain's favor. Olimar just has better frame data, his Pikmin eat aura spheres for breakfast like they're no big deal, Lucario at early percents needs grabs to get damage up which just can't happen all that well when flower dudes are head bangin' to Slayer on the aura dog.

Luc has it slightly better at higher percents, as Force Palm can instantly destroy any Pikmin in his way and it poses a threat to the Captain himself, but it's not much. Luc still needs to get in close for the kill for things like aura sphere into u-smash, bair, force palm grab, ect.

I'd say Lucario gets a decent advantage when Olimar is off-stage since he has a pretty gimpable recovery, and Oli has to lose his flower soldiers to make the most out of it. But in every other situation? Yeah, no dice.

Pretty solid for the little guy over-all I'd say. Hope this helped!





Also it still shocks me how hard Olimar can hit with his Fair and Bair with certain Pikmin. I swear it feels like getting smacked by Ganon from the sound effect alone of it's a purple. Ouch.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

My best friend plays Greninja, so I know a lot of the tricks. I'd say it's Olimar's favor maybe like 6:4. Greninja is combo food and dies easily, as well as having an pretty easy to hit up-b. His full charged shuriken can be power shielded by running into it and shielding at the right time, you can then jump fair or grab to punish Greninja if he approaches. It mainly comes down to not letting Greninja get in on you, since he's fast he'll try to catch you when you short hop or something in the mid range distance. Just be weary of how you move/commit in that range, and it's pretty easy after that. Also lag him like crazy with side-b, it makes most of his attacks unsafe. Also whistle is amazing as always, so do that a lot. Whistling both hits of upsmash into your own fsmash just feels so satisfying.

Not speaking on most of this (again, not enough knowledge on my end), but if you're having an easy time hitting your friend when they use Hydro Pump, your friend is using it wrong. The angle of recovery is devilishly easy to alter, it can mix up between ledge grab or sliding onto the stage and past opponents, and can be mixed up with Shadow Sneak (both onto the stage and to the ledge) or even Substitute in some cases. Plus if Greninja makes it even remotely close to the edge before using Hydro Pump, using it away from the ledge for the first half will push enemies away for a safer recovery and free damage.

With that said, the more I read the more I really would consider this an even MU. Olimar has a better ground game, but Greninja is better in the air. Both characters can camp relatively well (albeit with greninja's being less intuitive for this MU). Both characters appear to have tools to counter the other's camping attempts. Both characters are good at punishing one another. Greninja kills earlier, but Olimar's kill moves are easier to connect with. Greninja has an advantage in gimping recoveries, but Olimar ends up off-stage less often. So, yeah, still sticking with 50:50 here.

 

[Myran]

You'd be surprised how many attacks I've whistled through and punished because they weren't guaranteed. Olimar isn't as much of a sitting duck in the air as he used to be. I'm not saying he's amazing, but he's got some stuff. As for recovery, I can usually just go off of reaction to punish stuff if I'm playing well. Olimar's dsmash will cover anything at level and slightly lower of me including the ledge. Also I wouldn't say Greninja kills earlier, Olimar oozes kill power with purples.

 

[koken]

I will be very brief because no one is doing an extensive analysis of the MU as I did and I think I'm losing my time =/.

Pikachu

Esam said once Pikachu loses against Olimar, I believe it to (don't ask me where, I just remember he did).
We have more Fsmash range than Pikachu, our pikmin block their side B, we can just shield then Dsmash his quick attacks on us but we lose every single time in the air.
If Pikachu plays the camping game with neutral B, we just throw a Pikmin and wait for him to take it off, so Pikachu it's forced to get closer every time and his punish is not guaranteed.
For me the MU is like 50/50 or something like that.
​

Lucario

Pikmins eats their aura sphere for every meal, honestly there isn't anything more unfair for them. Nevertheless their counter is pretty abused when a Pikmin is latched on so it's a dangerous and risky move.
Lucario has some troubles approaching without rage or increased aura, so the stocks should be taken asap. Catching an Olimar with Neutral B would do the work for Lucario.
Lucarios needs a lot of effort to go over spam walling Olimar.
For me the MU is like 50/50 or something like that.
​

Greninja

It's a notable MU, everything is decided by the ability and mindgames of the Greninja player.
Our pikmins gives some troubles to him and lag-him heavily, but his speed leans the balance to his favor as well.
The counter is a good choice to look when he has a pikmin latched on, dangerous for Olimar and extends the hitbox so careful.
The grab is a pain in the %&$ for Greninja, but our is tremendously better so it's a good advantage against him.
For me the MU is like 55/45 Olimar's favor.​

 

[Blue Banana]

All the posts on Lucario are good, and there's enough of them to form an overall idea of the matchup if there isn't much more to say. Same with Greninja, but maybe a couple more posts can help make it more clearer. No (informational) posts on Pika, so I like to see some more opinions on the MU despite the amount of old quotes mainly because of the shield mechanic changes.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is just not easy to edgeguard at all. If you're edgeguarding one constantly then it's probably a bad Greninja. Olimar doesn't have the mobility to catch him if he recovers high thanks to him going really far and sliding upon hitting the floor. He can also push you out of the ledge with Hydro Pump in order to recover without having to fear your D-Smash at the ledge.

Greninja definitely has an easier time edgeguarding Olimar than the opposite thanks to Hydro Pump screwing with your Up-B and there being little you can do about it.

This is one of the MUs I have very little practice against since Olimar is so rare, but it's a very annoying MU that I'd rather avoid (but that's with any character) but I can't see Greninja losing badly to him. I've played against Dabuz before though it was in rather laggy circunstances and there's obviously a skill gap between us but when I asked him about it he said the MU was probably even and I'm inclined to agree with him with what experience I had.

 

[Blue Banana]

He can also push you out of the ledge with Hydro Pump in order to recover without having to fear your D-Smash at the ledge.

When you say "out of the ledge", do you mean pushing him off the ledge or pushing him away from the ledge towards the center of the stage?

I don't have a lot of experience against frog, but if I remember correctly, Hydro Pump applies a windbox effect on the opponent but no hitstun. What I'm thinking is that even if Olimar were to be pushed away from the ledge by the first spray of water while he's charging Dsmash, his Pikmin will still stay in their original position until they attack. This is based off on my experience that if Mario uses his F.L.U.D.D. on Olimar up close while he initiates a Fsmash, Fsmash would still hit Mario even though he pushed Olimar away. If what I'm thinking is true, then Olimar can still threaten to hit Greninja if he uses his second spray of water towards the ledge with Dsmash.

Fairly sure this doesn't apply if Olimar is pushed off the ledge, though.

 

[FullMoon]

When you say "out of the ledge", do you mean pushing him off the ledge or pushing him away from the ledge towards the center of the stage?

I don't have a lot of experience against frog, but if I remember correctly, Hydro Pump applies a windbox effect on the opponent but no hitstun. What I'm thinking is that even if Olimar were to be pushed away from the ledge by the first spray of water while he's charging Dsmash, his Pikmin will still stay in their original position until they attack. This is based off on my experience that if Mario uses his F.L.U.D.D. on Olimar up close while he initiates a Fsmash, Fsmash would still hit Mario even though he pushed Olimar away. If what I'm thinking is true, then Olimar can still threaten to hit Greninja if he uses his second spray of water towards the ledge with Dsmash.

Fairly sure this doesn't apply if Olimar is pushed off the ledge, though.

I meant pushing away from the ledge.

Even if the Pikmin remain in place, doing the back-and-forth Hydro Pump would keep Greninja in the air long enough that he'll be able to regrab the ledge while Olimar's D-Smash is not active anymore as it only lasts 7 frames and I'm pretty sure back-and-forth Hydro Pump is not that fast.

 

[Myran]

I meant pushing away from the ledge.

Even if the Pikmin remain in place, doing the back-and-forth Hydro Pump would keep Greninja in the air long enough that he'll be able to regrab the ledge while Olimar's D-Smash is not active anymore as it only lasts 7 frames and I'm pretty sure back-and-forth Hydro Pump is not that fast.

Actually it wouldn't since I can just charge my dsmash until your on the return path, and if you're already on the ledge I can time it when you drop to do up-b. You can say it isn't easy, but when you play someone enough you kinda force them to innovate new ways to recover as you beat old ones. I'm gonna stick with it being somewhat on the easier side, You can go high, but all I have to do is be ready to react, and not commit to any attack or position until you act. It's also stage dependent.

 

[Kon]

Well about the Pikachu Match-up. I've fought a few pikas in Germany and from my experience, I felt like punishing quick attacks is possible with Olimar as long as you have always a Pikmin latched on pikachu. Also with the fsmash you can avoid/nullify the neutral b of Pikachu. However if Pikachu gets in, you can easily get comboed. Purple Side B is as always a great tool to make it difficult for your ennemies to approach properly. In general pivot grabs are great to cover landings.

 

[StripedNinja]

1: While uncharged Water Shuriken will clank with pikmin, fully charged will go through them. This means fully charged WS needs to be shielded or avoided, as it's slow speed also makes it hard to dodge through.
2: Since blue pikmin are immune to water damage, you're liable to end up with more of them than other colors since it's harder for greninja to kill them.

Sorry, just got to clear this up for anyone who plays Olimar cause everyone seems to be confused on this. Blue pikmin are not immune to water damage in any way. I think this confusion came from the fact that they have more health than average and so people would see them living longer but it isn't because of anything like that they are killed by Greninjas swords and shuriken just like any other pikmin.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

On top of that, don't most of Greninja's water attacks count as Sword attacks (at least in Brawl sticker terminology)?

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Sorry, just got to clear this up for anyone who plays Olimar cause everyone seems to be confused on this. Blue pikmin are not immune to water damage in any way. I think this confusion came from the fact that they have more health than average and so people would see them living longer but it isn't because of anything like that they are killed by Greninjas swords and shuriken just like any other pikmin.

Sorry, as someone who doesn't play olimar and rarely sees him played, I was actually forced to check this. I found the information at http://smashboards.com/guides/pikmin-management-and-more-a-ssb4-guide-to-olimar.53/ stating that blue pikmin are immune to water damage, which specifically listed Greninja's Water Shuriken. I would feel safe in assuming this would also cover hydro pump, though I don't know for sure on any of Greninja's other moves.

EDIT: Blues being water immune is also backed up by http://smashboards.com/guides/pikmin-are-amazing.371/ which states it only applies to greninja's projectiles (and Mario's F.L.U.D.D.). This means that it is less prominent than I might have originally believed, but it should still have some effect. With that said, Blue pikmin are also the only ones that latch onto Greninja capable of surviving N-air, but after comparing their health to the damage N-air deals, it looks like they should die to it, so it's possible that they are immune to that as well. Unfortunately I'm away from my Wii U at the moment, so if someone could test that it would be appreciated.

 

[StripedNinja]

Sorry, as someone who doesn't play olimar and rarely sees him played, I was actually forced to check this. I found the information at http://smashboards.com/guides/pikmin-management-and-more-a-ssb4-guide-to-olimar.53/ stating that blue pikmin are immune to water damage, which specifically listed Greninja's Water Shuriken. I would feel safe in assuming this would also cover hydro pump, though I don't know for sure on any of Greninja's other moves.

EDIT: Blues being water immune is also backed up by http://smashboards.com/guides/pikmin-are-amazing.371/ which states it only applies to greninja's projectiles (and Mario's F.L.U.D.D.). This means that it is less prominent than I might have originally believed, but it should still have some effect. With that said, Blue pikmin are also the only ones that latch onto Greninja capable of surviving N-air, but after comparing their health to the damage N-air deals, it looks like they should die to it, so it's possible that they are immune to that as well. Unfortunately I'm away from my Wii U at the moment, so if someone could test that it would be appreciated.

I understand but I did test it on my Wii U before I made my post I am 100% about this. There are a lot of places around smash boards claiming this but it just isn't true.

 

[Myran]

Yeah, my b, that was put in a long time ago, and forgot to fix it on my last updated, they aren't immune.

 

[Indexxical!]

Yeah, my b, that was put in a long time ago, and forgot to fix it on my last updated, they aren't immune.

Thanks Greninja mains, I too will have to update my guide.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Huh... Glad to help with my ignorance I guess?

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Pikachu, Lucario, and Greninja matchups is now closed. Thanks for all the responses.

is an even matchup. There aren't too many responses for this matchup, but I don't see anything in the responses or in the old posts that make me think that it's a hard matchup but not an easy one either.

There are a lot of varied opinions on the matchup, but most of them tend to settle between even and advantageous for Olimar, so it seems to be a slightly advantageous matchup.

is either an even or a slightly advantageous matchup since opinions seem to be evenly split on this MU.

------------------------

Discussion 7 - The Color BluE



Rosalina and Luma Frame Data
Sonic Frame Data
Meta Knight Frame Data

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Rosalina and Luma)

Alright guys today I'll be talking about (Rosalina and Luma). I know this character can be hard to deal with, but I've got some tips and stuff that should make the MU much easier.

Pros

• Can jab lock Luma.
• Purples are great for disrupting approaches.
• Smashes go through Luma making a great tool for walling out.
  
• Small size makes certain aerial approaches harder to hit.
• Olimar's out of shield options can be very strong, especially when coming from a power shield.

Cons

• She can absorb your smashes with Down-B.
• Luma makes grabbing very unsafe.
• Can kill Olimar early.
• Is able to go offstage to gimp/kill Olimar.

First off I'm gonna start with how to deal with the two types of Rosalina, offensive and defensive. Let's start the with offensive ones. There are a couple ways they will approach you there is the standard auto-canceled Nair approach, the Dash Attack/Dash Grab, and the Luma Shot. Keep in mind there are other ways to be aggressive, but these are the most common ones.

Let's start off with the Nair approach. When a Rosalina Nairs the hitboxes are active all the way until the move cancels on the ground, but the best way to punish this approach is to power shield into jab or smash. This is almost guaranteed everytime if they are throwing out Nair to often. It becomes a much more punishable move, and allows the Olimar to appropriately wrack damage for incorrect aggression. I cannot stress the importance of power shielding, this is a vital part of Olimar's punish game since so many of these higher tier characters have little to no lag on their attacks.

Next I'll talk about the Dash Attack/Dash Grab approach. The Dash attack can be a bit of a hard move to punish, but it is definitely possible. Keep a purple on hand is a great way to immediately stop her from running in. Another method is to bait out an attack/grab then run back and pivot smash/pivot grab. These moves have a lot of range, and are great for grounded opponents. Shielding is what I have found to be a tried and true method for most approaches due to the great OoS options, but make sure not to get to predictable when shielding, because they may start grabbing. Try to find a good balance of shielding, camping out with Pikmin Throw, and pivot attacking. This will make the grounded approach much easier to avoid.

Finally I'll talk about what I find the easiest aggressive style to play against. The Luma Shot is a pretty simple work around. If the Rosalina is shooting in the Luma constantly you can either shield it or jump above it. Once it's out watch out for any attacks, but if you're able to catch it with a jab you can lock it there by jabbing and moving forward as the Luma does. This will make her approach and from there you can do the other options listed above. One thing I have found can work well against less experienced players is to F-Smash right as they approach you. This will end the jab lock, wrack up some extra damage, and will either make the player shield most likely giving you time to get away or hit them.

Now for the Defensive Rosalina. I won't be breaking this down into certain sections, but instead covering how to deal with the ones who stay back and are constantly retreating back. When Rosalina is more defensive I find it to be a much easier MU, because it allows the Olimar much more room to breathe while letting him wrack up easier damage. Defensive Rosalinas are usually there when they can't find out how to get through the wall of Pikmin Olimar can put up. This means that keeping a strong defense of your own is key. Olimar is a defensive character, he wracks up damage from a distance and punishes when the opponent approaches. Another key element is stage control. When you have the Rosalina on the defensive it allows you to push forward on the stage. This allows more safe offense, and an easier time getting those hard hitting attacks on her. Keeping purples with you is key, because it you do decide to press forward for more aggro attacks having the purple will make them retreat to shield, dodge, or get hit. These options are all good, because it allows for much better follow ups. I know this section might sound a little contradictory with me saying Olimar is defensive, but having some stage dominance and offensive pressure, but I hope that you guys will learn what I'm saying as you progress in the MU.

One last note I want to talk about is how to recover when offstage. Rosalina is very good offstage because of her great recovery and large hitboxes. When knocked offstage you need to be able to mix up either going high or low, and when I say low I mean very low. You need to make Rosalina commit to going down so that if you aren't hit she won't be able to throw out another attack. It is also advised when going low to ride the wall of the stage. It will increase the chances of you being hit into the wall which will allow you to tech it and recover.

Overall I'd say the Rosalina MU is a 50/50 for Olimar. He has tools to keep her back, and ways to get around strong pressure. Just make sure to keep the reaction timing up for good power shields and tech, and you'll be able to deal with a lot of offensive pressure she will put out. Purples are huge for going in and keeping her out as well. Abuse the fact that your smashes go through Luma too. If you guys have any more questions feel free to ask!

Just to add to this a little, I find the whistle becomes really useful against Rosalina since it's pretty hard to land against her, but her juggling tools (up air/up tilt) are both pretty obvious coming out and single hit, making them pretty easy to whistle helping Oli get back to the stage a lot.

Against Rosalina, don't bring her to T&C. The low upper blastzones allow for early Uair/U-smash kills.

BF/Dreamland is actually a decent counterpick. The reason Rosalina does well there is because if she camps under a platform covers so many aggressive options, but Olimar forces approaches so that's nullified. You also get platforms for landing.

FD is a great Olimar stage, as usual (and also probably Rosalina's worst stage). Just remember that landing will be very tough against her.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Sonic)

Try to keep Pikmin latched onto Sonic, it makes most of his moves punishable where they normally wouldn't be. They also slow down his spindash making it easier to punish. Just make sure to shield a lot when he's spindashing and learn the timings so you can follow up or respace yourself if needed.

Also use dtilt, it's amazing.

Has there been a discussion of Olimar vs Sonic (Particularly Hammer side-b)? In the past two tournaments, I lost 3 sets to Norcal's top sonic. The hammer's priority is stronger than that of vanilla spindash and is much harder to space/grab around. I always struggle against the hammer although I think I do decently against sonic's default moveset.

I know the feeling. That customs makes you work so hard for almost nothing as a reward. Your best bet is to just fight it like you would normal spindash, but respect it's faster movement. You can still fsmash it away if it hits a pikmin if the sonic gets reckless. Just run away a lot, and make sure your movement is clean so you don't get hit when you try to throw pikmin. Try to make sure you're power shielding a lot of his stuff too so you have a greater chance to punish.

One of the big things we can do to punish pikachu sorta like the sonic matchup is having a pikmin latched onto him, especially when he uses a fair and a pikmin is latched it lags them alot and we can go in and punish,somewhere way back when I think Myran said another big thing to do is "Side B camp power shield fsmash can stop some of his quick attack approaches, yellow pikmin stop his thunderjolts".I read somewhere that its possible for perfectly spaced nair/jab/tils can beat out his quick attack , but I havent tested it myself to prove this theory but if it true, then it would be pretty nice, I guess lol. Using fsmash in general makes it so that pikachu can approach you from in front of you with his quick attack. His pika thunder jolts are actually like mario's fireballs, they have punishable startup lag on it so it's not that good like it was in brawl imo. Also to keep in mind, Esam wrote himself for fighting against pikachu,
"When Pikachu grabs you at high %, you are always supposed to DI away to avoid a thunder follow-up. U-throw you can technically DI either way to avoid immediate thunder spike -> Blue Thunder death combo, but for D-throw you MUST DI forward. Since you can’t really mash, Pikachu can get a lot of damage through Pummels and throw for stage positioning ANYWAY, but PLEASE if you react to the grab, DI forward. "

The most experience I've personally gotten from the pikachu matchup is from Anther's ladder so I personally feel like its 50/50 as Pikachu has very good combo potential but its still hard for him to actually get in, but getting out once he gets in, I thing its best to mix up our recovery because facing a good edgeguarding pikachu is difficult , he wins the air game, we win the ground game.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Meta Knight)

I searched and didn't get any results so I take it this is (unfortunate) news for Olimars. I just found out about this early today and made a video.

So basically, MK's Up-Throw rises so high, so quickly that it separates all Pikmin from Olimar's line and their AI makes them attempt to follow Olimar upward into the path of the Up-Throw. The problem is that Up-Throw also has a powerful hitbox (knock-back wise) on the way down and the move does 7% to Pikmin and puts them into a stunned knock-down state right in front of where MK himself will land. Olimar on the otherhand will be sent flying away from the situation helpless to do anything.

White Pikmin die from the Up-Throw itself if it's fresh.
One D-Tilt from MK will kill all but Purple Pikmin after the throw.
Purple Pikmin die to 2 D-Tilts or one F-Smash after the throw.
All Pikmin die from two consecutive Up-Throws.


To sum it up, MK guaranteed kills all of Olimar's Pikmin with an Up-Throw before Olimar can even touch the ground again.
So don't get grabbed by the character with, speed- and distance-wise, the best dash grab in the game... Sorry, folks.

Prolly late af for olimar, but vs s2H mixing up your recovery (IE recovery high to mixup besides recovering low) would be suggested as I feel like u always recovered low, just little things. Also when u used the roll ledge option, ppl tend to expect a roll the way he was spaced and you were prolly to caught up in the moment too notice he was about to read that, maybe I've gotten hit from it myself that i noticed a trend with ppl looking for that roll getup option for a kill. Also its best for u to throw pikmin so mk is force to approach and respond with pivot grabs and pivot fmashes, i mean i know thats a given obvious that may have been overlooked, due to the spur of the moment, but doing pivot grab in general has less endlag and generally safer and u can act out of it faster than regular and dash grab and sometimes it just takes a reminder for ppl to remember that. Also try to be very sparing with dash grabs , alotta risk as much as a reward u can get when i play vs people thats like the opening they want to get in.

Discussion will be closed on Saturday, December 12.

 

[Sensane]

Here from the Sonic forums
(40:60)
Sonic can easily destroy the pikmin with a spin dash/charge, so trying to get them off won't be a big deal. U-smash would work, too, and I think dash attack and n-air would work as well, but the spin dashes can obliterate the pikmin when used correctly. F-air would also work if they latch onto Sonic's head. Sonic could also easily gimp Olimar's up b. Not as easily as say DHD, but it's still easy to land a b-air stage spike on Olimar.

But one thing that we struggle with is properly comboing you because of your small frame. That and purple pikmin would be trouble for us since they clank our spin dashes, which if used in the air would not only hinder our approach, but at the right time you could follow up with a f-air string. Purple pikmin are one of your most important assets imo.

 

[StripedNinja]

Rosa is either even or favorable imo. If anything we do a lot better than most other characters but even so Rosa seems to have one of the best matchup spreads in the game. Still, in comparison to other projectile based characters, our projectile game goes right through luma, so we can camp Rosa out like no other character can. Our Fsmash can also outrange any of solo Lumas options so if she tries to send out Luma to fight us on its own it's a pretty easy opportunity to damage/kill luma. Landing is the main concern just because Rosa is so good at juggling and we're so bad at landing, and can die really early to her juggling options as well. But mixing in whistle with airdodging and falling nair and up b, it gives us enough to decently mix it up a bit. Just be sure if you're whistling not to get hit by Luma afterwards.
Overall we win the neutral but if we lose it we lose it pretty hard.

 

[Triburos]

I feel like this is in Meta Knight's advantage, however, this is really early thoughts about it as I have a very difficult time trying to find Olimars.

But my argument is basically this; unless Oli is rocking Purples, there's little stopping MK's approach. He's not great at it, sure. Considering it all revolves around dash attack and dash grab. But Olimar just doesn't have too much to counteract his approaches outside of purples.

MK has pretty decent frame data, and a little more range than Oli has. And Oli really takes it hard when he gets taken off stage due to MK's lingers and multiple jumps.

He can avoid Pikmin keep away with his jumps in the neutral, and from my testing, he can even just Tornado right through Purples.

Though on the plus-side, MK gets stuck in tornado for ages when you throw Pikmin into it. Maybe the Captain can capitalize off of this? Lemmie know guys.

I can't say I'm too diverse in ranking match-ups number-wise (things like 50:50, 45:55, ect), but from what I got right now, I think Oli probably struggles with this match-up.

 

[Myran]

Good Olimar can usually farm, and maintain purples for a decent amount of time. As for not being able to stop you to much without them, if you dash attack and a hit a Pikmin attached to you or desycned it gives us more time to act.