Piklopedia - The Olimar Matchup Thread (1st ed. complete, open discussion)

[Myran]

Good Olimar can usually farm, and maintain purples for a decent amount of time. As for not being able to stop you to much without them, if you dash attack and a hit a Pikmin attached to you or desycned it gives us more time to act.

 

[Myran]

Good Olimar can usually farm, and maintain purples for a decent amount of time. As for not being able to stop you to much without them, if you dash attack and a hit a Pikmin attached to you or desycned it gives us more time to act.

 

[Triburos]

Good Olimar can usually farm, and maintain purples for a decent amount of time. As for not being able to stop you to much without them, if you dash attack and a hit a Pikmin attached to you or desycned it gives us more time to act.

Very good point actually.

Though, it helps that MK's dash attack isn't already unsafe on its own. If that were the case, I'd actually give that to the Captain's favor. But it's certainly a nice thing to have.

What I want to know though is; are Pikmin attached to MK able to delay his Uairs long enough to render it ineffective in Uair combos? Because that's a pretty good tool if so.

I'm gonna give that a test now.

Edit: Unfortunately, I was able to keep a Uair string going to a KO off the top with Oli at 20%, even with two Pikmin attached. But it is worth nothing that every so often, I'd actually not be able to land the Shuttle Loop at the end for a true finisher,

Good news though; off of a dash attack atleast, it's harder for him to get the chain going because there's longer hitlag on his dash attack. So jumping up into the Uair is stricter. And if you manage to get all three attached, it actually seems like a follow-up Uair might be impossible if MK hits you at the very beginning of the dash attack.


But, once he gets it going, it doesn't seem like Pikmin halt his progress too much.

Additionally, the more Pikmin on him, the longer his foot hitbox seems to remain active. So I'd be cautious of that.

So Pikmin don't seem capable of saving the Captain if he gets caught by the foot or a Fthrow. Bewary of MKs just rushing through your throws, Captains.

Overall though, that's pretty significant for Olimar. Depending on how effective he is at delaying MK's actions, I might actually consider this even. If Oli's recovery wasn't super easy to gimp, I'd probably even argue it to be in the Captain's favor.

How do you feel about the MU Myran?

 

[Myran]

Yeah, you can't really stop the uair strings, but I have had shuttle loop miss quite a bit due to it. Honestly I'd say that's the biggest thing to avoid. Also I'd say the MU is probably even, maybe swaying slightly in favor of one or the other. MK can kill easily if he gets in, but the Olimar shouldn't be letting him in. Also Olimar isn't short on kill power or combos, so it's not like he can't catch up.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Rosalina & Luma, Sonic, and Meta Knight matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

is between an even and a slightly advantageous matchup.

is a disadvantageous matchup.

is between slightly disadvantageous and disadvantageous.

Although there is a lack of input for all three characters, only Rosalina has a somewhat concrete rating generally due to Myran's old analysis and that other Oli users generally describe the matchup as mostly okay in other posts of the sub-forum. Amount of responses for Sonic is very lacking, and I feel like MK needs more input from other people to solidify the overall idea of how the matchup plays out.

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Discussion 8 - Forest Interlude



Donkey Kong Frame Data
Diddy Kong Frame Data

No quotes for Donkey Kong or Diddy Kong (as of this patch).

Discussion will be closed on December 19, 2015.

 

[Blue Banana]

Because there has been no posts since Sunday, I think I'm closing the discussion tomorrow, a little earlier than expected. I might put down my thoughts for Diddy, but I don't have enough experience to be sure about it.

 

[Myran]

Leave it open till Sunday. I'll write my thoughts on them, can't say for sure if I can do it tomorrow though.

 

[Blue Banana]

I'll leave it open until Sunday, then.

 

[Myran]

Alright so for Diddy you want to do your best to alternate how you playing according to if there's a banana in play or not. When he doesn't have on you can do the standard gameplay style with side-b covering a lot of your space and catching his movements with pivot grabs and smashes, also try to have Pikmin attached onto him or ready to throw to get rid of the banana once he pulls it out. When he has a banana you pretty much can't attack his shield since he's at an advantage then. So you need to play safe and don't really commit, but at the same time using your positioning or less committal attacks to bait him into throwing it. Using side-b with a purple or fsmash is a good way to destroy the thrown banana and hit him. I'd also recommend that you have a decent idea of how to get some of your own follow ups for when you grab the banana, you can confirm some smashes if it hits the right way to be sure to watch for those situations. I didn't really go into basic Diddy fighting since it's not to far from the standard gameplay that Olimar does all the time, the banana is the big thing here that makes things different.

Alright so Donkey Kong. He's a large slow hitbox that is combo food, you pretty much just gonna combo him early on with grabs, and use a lot of purples in neutral to keep him back. I'd say the biggest thing about this MU is that people don't seem to give the character enough respect, if you get greedy there's a good chance he's going to kill you. So play safe, and wrack up damage over time like normal. In regards to going for the kill I don't think it's to hard. Just try to read his movement and land a solid smash, or catch him off guard (especially if he's recovering from the ledge) with a purple back air.

I'm down to answer any other questions if you guys have them.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the DK and Diddy matchups is now closed.

Both and are between an even and a slightly advantageous matchup. I'm personally leaning more towards even, though.

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Discussion 9 - Brawlers

/

Ike Frame Data
Pit Frame Data
Dark Pit Frame Data
Wario Frame Data

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Ike)

For ike don't commit cuz he can punish you hard. Try to keep a pikmin on him cuz when they have a hitbox it activates his counter, and in general your spacing game gotta be on point. Pivot grabs/smash attks to catch his landings. Like literally all u gotta do is run away and choose a stage where you can runaway and if he approaches through the air know that purples stop aerials approaches and with mess with his rhythm. tl;dr : Hit and runaway and space yourself and play the patient game.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Wario)

I have played against one wario one time. I think Olimar does pretty well in this matchup though. The main thing about the matchup, in my experience, is respecting everything that wario has. Wario has 93 kill moves which you all need to be careful of. In a 2 stock meta especially, the waft + rage makes it so even at almost an entire stock advantage, the game is even and you need to watch out for his bike frame traps into the waft. One of wario's strongest tools in every matchup is his chomp. The chomp covers many defensive options against many characters (Shield, Spotdodge), as well as covering offensive smash attacks from Olimar. Pick up on the bite habits from the Wario player as I think most land with it more than they should. In almost every situation when wario is in the air (which is the majority of the match), I like just dashing away and punishing the landing with a pivot grab so I dont get bit through my shield or out prioritized with his nair. Being used to brawl, I had trouble adapting to the new bike. It legitimately always has a hitbox and you cant grab wario out of it like you could in brawl. Just respect it and shield but be cautious if wario jumps and quickly chomps you. Although Wario has 93 kills moves, several of these are very very laggy and can actually be OoS up-smashed. Another thing worth noting is that Wario mains are great at mindgaming with the bike when edgeguarding, wanting you to roll into an up smash or something. Keeping an eye on the warios movement when you're recovering can help you know if its safe enough to just sit on the ledge and wait for his bike to stop bouncing. Spacing and zoning him out in the neutral is huge as it is in every matchup as Olimar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNxEGNPa3oo This video can help you get at least a brief understanding of the matchup. Just ignore game 1 That one was for data

Even though Soulimar (which is a great player by the way) covered almost everything, I want to add:

When Wario is approaching with bike, and you have enough timing, prefer a Bair to his face over the front wheel whenever you can.

Wario:
This is just my experiencie, I don't have knowledge about so:
You can Fsmash against the bike and destroy it, but will depend on the damage done. Whenever the bike is a "new" one or at least it doesn't have damage, that will count if is destroyed with the sweetspot or sourspot.
I'm not completely sure about this though.
About the closer range to the sweetspot, isn't a bike stuff. It is a game thing.

I wish I could have facts to prove all these .

No quotes for Pit/Dark Pit.

Discussion will be closed on Sunday, December 27.

(no music links this time)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Never played the MU myself, just mentioning a few things I've heard in Ike skype (I should note in Ike skype, out of the Ikes that play against Olimars semi-regularly only one really has difficulty):

- Jab kills Olimar. If you have to ask for one piece of advise and only one in the Ike skype about this MU, you'll get "Jab like its Brawl again". My general understanding is that it more or less just rips through pikmin and Olimars close range options thanks to the removal of grab armour. And the shield changes means that Jab is more safe on shield now: I don't think Olimar can shield grab Ike's spaced Jab though I don't know for sure (I know most characters can't).

- Ike is going to juggle Olimar. A lot. Second piece of advise you'll get is that Olimar can't do jack squat if he's sent up into the air. None of your aerials are getting past ours. You have your whistle armour and that's about it. But we can use aerials without landing lag and then pivot grab your landing. And grab leads into all of Ike's lovely throw combos.

- Emphasis on the fact that Ike has multiple aerials with little or no landing lag. Along with the shield changes Olimar really is going to struggle to punish properly spaced aerials from Ike. Because most characters do.

- When pikmin are attached to Ike, he's going to remove them with Jab or an aerial most likely. A bit dangerous for Olimar if its Nair, makes those lingering hitboxes linger even longer. Counter is also an option. Speaking of extending the length of hitboxes: don't toss pikmin onto Ike if you're trying to recover. That just means that Eruption's hitbox is going to last even longer and you're just going to fly into a giant flaming hitbox while trying to make it to the ledge.

-I think having pikmin attatched to Ike while he does Dash Attack means that Dash Attack can hit twice at once. Happens with projectiles if Ike hits both the projectile and the opponent at the same time. Does a lot of damage.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Like I said before vs Ike ,dont commit (IE stick with side B, jab jab, Pivot grab,dtilt) and punish landings. Never roll ever. Shield dashing would be useful to bait him to grab you and when u read he wil try to grab you jab jab or fsmash general olimar stuff. Always run away!


For Pit/dark pit it will be hella difficult to land so try to mix it up and if u can't recover above then go for the ledge instead to get back if u are thrown off stage. Just play general olimar not committing and sprinkle in a few smashes in neutral but be wary for their side B rotor arm thing. Higher percents you should try to bait that out and punish hard when given the chance. They may have a reflector but if they use it stays out really long and can be punished really hard as well, good ones wont spam it but if you can bait that out as well its a free grab/purple bair

 

[Sensane]

Eyyyy, I was just here a little while ago XD.

Anyways, for the Pit[too] MU, I don't have as much to say as I only fight Olimars with Sonic, but I can say that the Pits' multi-hit aerials (aka n-air), while effectively damage the Pikmin, are surprisingly not enough to kill them off. However, we're fast enough to outrun a thrown Pikmin and we can through out a turnaround f-smash that thankfully won't stale after hitting a pikmin and should kill them. And, again, Olimar's recovery is easily punishable, which gives us an opportunity to d-air spike. Dark Pit, thanks to his electroshock buff, can kill Olimar much earlier than Pit can, so I'd say that this is 40:60 in Pit's favor.

 

[PyroTakun]

I've only played a couple Olimars but they gave me quite a bit of trouble.

For the Ike MU, Olimars will definitely want to play defensive. Stay out of reach, throw lots of pikmin, and grab whenever you see any openings. Ike has a hard time landing, so juggling him is quite easy.

I really don't have any other advice outside of that. If Ike gets a grab or a string going it's a lot of damage so don't put yourself in that position. Also try to mix up your recovery to keep Ike on his toes, or you will get punished pretty heavily for it.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Wario can be really sketchy matchup. They seem to like spacing with Fair/Nair and biking across the stage, among other things.

- GENERAL: Try to zone and space carefully. You can meet him with Fairs if he's being hoppy, but don't get too greedy with it. Pivot grab when he commits to hitting you with an aerial (I hope this makes sense)

- ABOUT THE BIKE: When they run across the stage, you have a few options. You can roll in, try to beat it with Fsmash (doesn't always seem to work; I seem to have the most success with yellows), beat it with Fair (more reliable than Fsmash IMO), or predict where he's going to jump off and follow him with an Uair (I've gotten a few kills with this; it seems there's a period of time when he jumps off where he can't do anything). He can also pop a wheelie or jump off early to stop some of these options. His bike still has a hitbox when he jumps off. Also, his wheelie can kill if he slams it down on you.

EDIT: Here are some of the tricks he can do with his bike

- ABOUT HIS FART: For the love of god, DO NOT regrab the ledge. That's a free fart if he's close enough, and they like to try to force it. Don't be predictable with rolls/dodges/getups or you'll get KO'd easily by it. Most importantly, don't play scared of the fart. Be aware of it, but don't let it rule the matchup. Also, he can fart on his bike to extend the hitbox. Be aware of this. Just be careful in situations when you're left vulnerable, like when you use UpB. Also try to recognize when he's trying to bait you into whiffing something.

-ABOUT STAGES: I usually try to reduce or eliminate platforms, particularly high ones. He can camp and stall until he gets fart and it's difficult to catch him. His bite can also be a huge pain with platforms.

- MISC. STUFF TO BE AWARE OF:
He can eat our pikmin during most moves (eating things charges his fart, BTW).
His Fthrow can kill and comes out quickly (I always forget this one).
His dash attack can trip, catch landings, and lead to followups. Expect it as a tool in close-range and as an approach.
His bite can catch lots of different ledge getups before they can come out. IIRC, it beats our normal getup, getup attack, roll-on, and ledge hop.

I'm sure I'm missing a LOT, but eh. I'll put stuff down later if I remember.

Nidtendofreak - Olimar actually didn't have "grab armor" in Brawl. Ike's jab was a pain there, too. :D
Back then, our pivot grab just destroyed Ike. His dash attack cut through a bit, though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Right, right.

Been a long time since I had to think of Brawl Ike vs Olimar, lol. Ike does better against Olimar now than he did back then though, and that MU eventually dropped to a 40-60 MU from Ike's perspective. Started off with like 4-5 different MUs rated a 30-70, in the end only MK kept that rating.

 

[Blue Banana]

Anyways, for the Pit[too] MU, I don't have as much to say as I only fight Olimars with Sonic, but I can say that the Pits' multi-hit aerials (aka n-air), while effectively damage the Pikmin, are surprisingly not enough to kill them off. However, we're fast enough to outrun a thrown Pikmin and we can through out a turnaround f-smash that thankfully won't stale after hitting a pikmin and should kill them. And, again, Olimar's recovery is easily punishable, which gives us an opportunity to d-air spike. Dark Pit, thanks to his electroshock buff, can kill Olimar much earlier than Pit can, so I'd say that this is 40:60 in Pit's favor.

I can't help but think that the PIt matchup is even. Once Olimar is knocked off the ground it's very easy to juggle and edgeguard him with multiple jumps and multi-hit aerials, but I don't know how Pit would approach him aside from dashing stuff. Arrows can be stuffed by Pikmin and using orbitars leaves him open to a dash grab. Side B arm can be stopped prematurely if a Pikmin is latched onto him and can also be grabbed out of it because of Olimar's grab range, though I have trouble punishing due to how it seems to be used rarely. Trying to recover with UpB puts Pit at risk of getting hit by Dsmash, especially on Battlefield if he flies into the lip of the ledge.

 

[Sensane]

I can't help but think that the PIt matchup is even. Once Olimar is knocked off the ground it's very easy to juggle and edgeguard him with multiple jumps and multi-hit aerials, but I don't know how Pit would approach him aside from dashing stuff. Arrows can be stuffed by Pikmin and using orbitars leaves him open to a dash grab. Side B arm can be stopped prematurely if a Pikmin is latched onto him and can also be grabbed out of it because of Olimar's grab range, though I have trouble punishing due to how it seems to be used rarely. Trying to recover with UpB puts Pit at risk of getting hit by Dsmash, especially on Battlefield if he flies into the lip of the ledge.

That's fair. I was thinking that a turnaround f-smash would make us punished anyway. So even is good.

 

[Spinosaurus]

He can eat our pikmin during most moves (eating things charges his fart, BTW).

Only things that heal him, so that excludes Pikmin. This isn't a reliable thing to do against Pikmin, though.

Don't have much to say on this MU, barely have experience. I know it's a very lame one.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Ahhkay, thank you for that information!

 

[Volk3]

i havent been on for a while now, sorry guys. I was busy . I'd like to post about the match ups that already have been ended. I'd like to start from yoshi and ryu and move from there to here. I'm gonna post about wario and pit and ike now since thats open. #blue banana, pls tell me if I should post about the MU that have ended already now or to wait untill its reopened. i have a decent amount of information on the MU's.

On some of my MU opinions, I'll explain situations (most used approaches, common things I c in the MU etc) and sometimes they will be long. pls bear with me . (if its too difficult to understand, pls private message me if ur interested in deeper explanation. not sure if they like it if I post too much on the thread). after my explanation on this thread, I'll summarize at the end and post my opinion advantage or not.

ok, starting wth ike.
Ike bread and butter approaches are dash grad and dasg attack, nair into crouching dtilt, nair into jab (thats it really ). Against his dash grab and dash attack, utilize pivot grab. Againt his nair approaches.. there isnt too much you can do against that sadly, it has almost no landing lagg and it has good range and comes out quickly. Hold shield and keep holding shield untill they use dtilt or jab then roll backwards or you can punish with grab OoS. Ofcourse mix things up with rolling and grabbing, dont become predictable Respect nair and jab.
Play the usual spacing olimar game, side b, spaced fairs, dtilt for mix ups and pivot grab his arial approaches or use pivot grab in neutral. Dont leave yourself open too much, by whiffing dash grabs or fsmashes, ike has the range to punish you and the power to kill early if you're not careful.

Ike can kill olimar pretty early so be careful and dont leave yourself open when at high percentage. Ike is also pretty heavy so killing him is not gonna be the easiest thing, just play patient and punish his mistakes, with smash attacks if you get the chance.

Summarized:
neutral: spacing game, side b, spaced fairs, dtilt, pivot grabs, mix it up. Play patient, watch out for nair, jab.
At KO: punish his mistakes with smash attacks if possible to kill him.

My opinion: even match up. Ike is too heavy to kill early unless gimped (I dont really go for edgeguard off stage, I dont feel safe ) and they have kill power to kill olimar earlier then we can. We have a better neutral with our pikmin and spacing game. they only have jab, nair, ditilt which are safe.



Pit/ dark Pit
*when I say pit, i also mean dark pit, they are really alike in terms of how they play.
Pit has really fast attacks, dash attack, dtilt, ftilt, jab, dash grab. These are difficult to punish if they mix it up well with their approaches. they will usually try to approach with falling nair, dash attack and dash grab becuz they are quick. Use shield and spot dogde to try and beat out these approaches. Although if can be hard sometimes if they mix it up well.
When they start running at you, you can sometimes you dtilt to mix it up, if they dont expect it, you can hit them into the air for a possible fair follow up. using dtilt is fairly safe. if they go for dash attack, they will clash with it, if they go for dash grab, they'll get hit becuz it has a good hitbox in front of it, if they shield they'll probably be too far to shield grab unless perfect shield and dash grab lol. Mix up pivot grab against their running apporach too.
Use side b camping and try to bait them to approach. If they do, use what is described above. They can use their reflector to counter side b, but it is punishable, go for dash grab when they use their reflector. So reflector isnt too much of a problem. Dont become predictable with fsmash becuz they can reflect that back and hit you.
Their side b also has a reflect on it so be careful of they, dont fsmash it . instead grab, shield grab or shield it and fsmash. it can kill pretty early so be careful.
they also have a quick dsmash, it can be difficult to punish that. I dont really go for punishing a whiffed dsmash anymore becuz they can roll or spotdodge quickly after it.
When they hit you off stage, best to throw away all pikmin or untill you have 1 to have the most speed when using up b. they have multiple airjumps and will likely go for spike kill, having least amount of pikmin will give you better chance of not getting hit. You can go for the edgeguard against pit becuz their up b doesnt have a hitbox. So do your best to spike them!


Summarized:
neutral: side b, dtilt, pivot grab their dashing apporaches. It can be difficult to punish some of their quick attacks (ftilt etc), consider retreating and going for olimar sapcing game. jab is also a really good get off me move against them. Uair is also pretty good against them when they jump often. Doesnt beat out their dair though, but it is quick and some decnt range.
At KO: smash attacks are good, but watch out for their reflectors. Also ftilt seems like a really good kill option. They are often in your face after they approach, ftilt is pretty quick and can kill at a decent percent.

My opinion: slight disadvantage, punishing a good pit can be pretty hard becuz of their quick attacks and low lagg. The neutral is pretty even to me, olimar can camp pretty wel but pit is pretty quick. Both can rack up damage on each other but to kill, I think pit has a slight advantage becuz of how fast some attacks are.


Wario:
Wario has pretty good aerial game, respect his fair. Wario's often space their fairs which make it safe, we cant really do much about that. best to just play campy imo. Side b camp, try pivot grabbing their aerial approaches if they dont space well. Pivot grab can also be used if they approach from the ground. When they use bike from a distance to approach, you can either roll to their backside, or you can short hop fair to hit them off. Keep in mind that they can mix up their bike approach as wel, they can control the speed of the bike, and they can also wheelie, so if you keep hitting them with short hop fair, they'll wheelie when they catch on and hit you. So its a bit of a reaction thing where you have to watch and react what the wario is doing. They also have bite, which makes shielding against wario not as safe. They also have an ok ground game, quick jab, dtilt, dash attack and dash grab. Their dash attack is pretty annoying which can trip. They also have the waft which can kill olimar really early if caught, so gotta watch out for that. if he has full charge try less whiffed attacks that leave you open. And watch out for nair waft setup or bike waft setup on stages that are not final destination. wario is really heavy so killing him is gonna be a problem. Try look for an opening in his approaches and hit him with a smash attack. fsmash is good becuz it outranges any of wario's grounded attacks (except dash attack but he'll get hit nonetheless).


Summarized:
neutral: side b camp (I dont mean run away the whole game, becuz I myself hate playing like that. I mean, side b camp, and look for openings and punish). Against bike, mix up short hop fair and rolling behind against it. Purple side b also knocks him off of bike so that can also be used. Dtilt, pivot grab grounded approachs and pivot can be used against aerial approach also (for example misspaced fairs). Watch out for bite (dont shield too often when they aerial approach you cuz they'll mix up with bite, roll instead). when they have waft, dont make urself vulnerable and watch out for nair and bike waft setups.
At KO: pretty difficult since he's heavy and building damage can be hard. punish mistakes with smash attacks. Uair can be pretty good sometimes if they jump predictably. Has some decent kill power with purple.

my opinion: disadvantage, wario has a really good air game which can be hard for olimar to punish. His ground game is more punishable. Wario is heavy so he can live pretty long while olimar is light. Wario also has waft which can kill olimar pretty early. And a bite, bike game which can be annoying to deal with.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Ike, (Dark) Pit, and Wario matchups is now closed. Thanks for all the responses.

is an even matchup, though my past experience makes me think it's between that and a slight disadvantage.
matchups are either even or slightly disadvantageous. I still feel like the matchup can't be worse than even, but the opinions given here seem to favor a disadvantage for Olimar.
is a disadvantageous matchup. Not entirely concrete since there's only one post that gives a clear rating, but the traits that Wario has seem to make the matchup feel like one.

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Discussion 10 - Robot Rock



Robot Frame Data
Rock Frame Data

Spoiler: Robot

If you can grab his gyro it cuts his camp game in half. This works even better if you have at least one purple. So you can still throw Pikmin to latch on, but use a purple have a move with knockback. Alternatively be a bit more aggressive may be easier for you if you are having trouble with the projectiles.

Spoiler: Rock

Pivot grab a lot. Don't bother using much side-b, but try to snipe whites on him. Also watch out for his leaf shield approach, it's really rough to deal with as olimar.

Be very patient and wait for him to mess up. You can out-camp him, but again it's really tough. Try to stay mid-range and punish any mistakes he makes with grabs or white pikmin. If you have time and are across the stage, throw off 1 pikmin at a time and try to get more whites / purples. This matchup is a waiting game.

This is probably my hardest matchup right now. Megaman may be one of my official "counters" to olimar so far. Every other character I am able to beat quite consistently except sonic, because sonic has his brawl shenanigans still xD

A good MegaMan is indeed a tough matchup. I found that I had to go in aggressively because trying to outcamp him left me at a projectile deficit since he doesn't have to respawn his projectiles before using them.

The matchup against Megaman is basically a test of patience between both players. Megaman will be constantly throwing out Metal Blades and Crash Bombers at you at neutral, so you'll need to watch if Megaman is mixing up throwing them out and protect yourself accordingly. SideB will stuff Crash Bombers while Fsmash and purple sideB clanks out Metal Blades. The only projectile that becomes ineffective if a pikmin is latched onto Mega is Charge Shot (Fsmash), so you want to get a pikmin on him often to minimize the threat of Charge Shot. Jab/nair can kill Pikmin easily, though. Pellets are the only projectile that I don't know what to do with yet (if it's possible), but it is only limited at mid-range.

Watch for his approaches. Mega will probably go for a grab if you get hit by a Metal Blade or with Leaf Shield active. If you catch Mega setting up Leaf Shield, you can grab him if you're fast enough. Dash attacks are punishable as long as you're playing safe. Watch for any glide toss approaches with Metal Blade. Be careful and play safe at close range; Utilt/Dsmash can KO you early if Mega catches on a mistake but is punishable if whiffed.

Recover low offstage; Uair makes recovering high risky. Be careful of Hard Knuckle spikes.

As long as Olimar can keep up with Mega's projectiles, the only thing that could make Mega not approach are pellets, because they're the only projectiles that completely stop Pikmin. Even if Fsmash/purple side B clanks through one pellet, the second or so pellet will still stop them.

Good mega mens are a pain in the ***. I'd say the MU is probably even, but due to the nature of the matchup you need to stop yourself from getting frustrated and keep your cool or else you'll lose it.

Metal Blades travel through pikmin but pikmin eat ALL of his other projectiles. Once again it's just "outcamp and outplay." Make the mega man commit to dumb options to try and close the gap and punish him for it. If you can get your hands on the metal blade before he does he loses his only zoning tool and it's extremely hard for him to get in on you if you refuse to let it go.

Robot Rock will end on Saturday, January 2. Robot Rock.

 

[Myran]

Oh do I know ROB! I've lost so many sets to 8bitman over the last few months it was awful, but with every loss I figured out more and more. So pretty much what I like to do is put on a constant stream of pressure. It can be done a variety of ways, and doesn't have to be you always running in. So either sit back and chuck those Pikmin while shielding Gyro/Laser, or farm some purples/ grab Gyro and go in. So ROBs dtilt and jab are very fast, faster than Olimar's jab in fact so you need to find ways to circumvent close quarters combat often. This is where purples come into play, since you can use them while you move forward to force a shield. This allows you to put out safer shield pressure, and either make ROB retreat or fight you. If he chooses to fight you want to trick him into committing, but make it unsafe with tight spacing or lagging him with Pikmin. Gyro is another way to apply shield pressure. I encourage you all to work on snatching Gyro and holding it while camping with side-b. This will most likely force ROB to approach, but if you have multiple purples and Gyro you can probably punish him even if he shields one of them. Another important thing is to latch Pikmin onto the Gyro once it has been released from him. Just side-b a non purple color, and it will tick on the Gyro, and interrupt ROB with minor hitstun if it's near him/picked up. This is a nice way to punish him for having a Gyro that he recently picked up, and can make for some favorable scenarios where his punishes/approaches may be unsafe. Gyro is definitely a big part of this MU, and once you can start to work it into your own gameplay you should do better.

Below I'll link the most recent set vs 8bitman where I in fact win. Notice how I use Gyro/ don't let him control it as much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Zt62RNr-Q

 

[Crome]

I don't have enough information to give a full write up, but I do have a single tip that would help R.O.B mains inexperienced with the MU that hasn't been touched on yet.

If a pikmin grabs the gyro and tries to bring it to you, it will hit you. It is still R.O.B's gyro. Even as a R.O.B main I find that hilarious and dumb. I gyro spiked our poor local Olimar main @Nexlash because of it, haha.

I think it's about even, give or take on both sides. Here is this thread on the R.O.B side of things.

 

[xIvan321]

Mega Man v Olimar:

The match up from my experience can be difficult, but is not free for Olimar to win. Most Mega Man will probably say they find the match up difficult as well, but I believe that's a little misunderstood. Olimar only shuts down charge shot and pellets which isn't that big of a deal considering its just the charge shot. Pellets on the other hand, if your Mega Man's playstyle revolves around pellets and keep away, then you aren't going to have a fun time against Olimar, and you just can't shake off the Pikmin either or Olimar can challenge you easily in the air or anti air you.

Olimar's damage will very often come out from his Pikmin latched on to Mega Man, while Mega Man should be throwing out a lot of Crash Bomber and Metal Blades. Metal Blade can be a game changer in the match up since the Pikmin really don't block out anything else, and if the Mega Man mastered DITCIT (AKA Super Glide Tossing) they simply can get in Olimar's face without an issue and shake off any Pikmin on him with an up smash or grab Olimar while the metal blade forces him to block it. Crash Bomber is very useful in the MU since Pikmin auto-detonate it upon hit also hitting Olimar.

On the other hand, once a Pikmin is latched on, all that Pikmin damage is practically free and there isn't much Mega Man can do about it until Olimar is completely out of sight.

There's not one thing I'd find off balance in this MU, and it is in my belief this is a very equal match up. (50/50) Charge shot may be a flashy type of move but you'd be surprised by the number of us who do agree its a crappy move either way and would not nearly be as missed as the pellets in the MU. Mega Man is gonna need to improvise, but we honestly do not lose as much as you'd think. Sure RIP pellet, but we still got D-air, metal blade, crash bomber, U-air, and leaf shield still.

Its simply a match of a lot of patience between the two characters. Almost like Mega Man and Olimar are at a slumber party throwing a pillow fight in a nutshell.

 

[Myran]

Purple side-b and our fsmash both go through Metal Blade if I recall. 2 of Olimar's biggest zoning tools.

 

[xIvan321]

It may just clash but it wouldn't hurt for me to check later in training mode. I think they will clash and purple will retreat but I'm not 100% certain.

 

[Myran]

It may just clash but it wouldn't hurt for me to check later in training mode. I think they will clash and purple will retreat but I'm not 100% certain.

I wanna say they don't because of the type of projectile Metal Blade is. Can't 100% remember so I'll let you check.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I think it is a 50-50 matchup.

It really comes down to who can get the KO first. And also who can out projectile the opponent.

For mega man we generally have a slight advantage if we go to dreamland or battle field as we can camp on the edge so the Pikmin get blocked (mostly) by the platforms.

Again a very patient matchup where power shielding and knowing your cool down times is important.

 

[xIvan321]

I guess you were right about purple, which just brings up you can get in the mid range and trade, but I know it won't be easy when a Mega Man knows what a purple does, and also I understand its pretty time consuming to get 2 or even 3 of them, correct?

 

[Myran]

I guess you were right about purple, which just brings up you can get in the mid range and trade, but I know it won't be easy when a Mega Man knows what a purple does, and also I understand its pretty time consuming to get 2 or even 3 of them, correct?

Idk about time consuming. Getting 2 is standard for me at least. Pikmin pretty much filter themselves since you kill them while I sit back and wrack up damage. Once I get 2 purples I can shift to a more aggressive style if I see fit.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I've only fought a few Olimars. It's one of those matches where both sides need to be very patient. Olimars will be tacking on damage via Pikmin Throw and Mega Man will be tacking on damage via his projectile play. I've found the best way to get a pikmin off safely is with Mega Man's nair. He can stay mobile and out of range for a moment while he deals with the latched on pikmin. Leaf Shield is very useful in this matchup for getting in close when needed or for ripping through active pikmin on the stage (even Purple). Speaking of Purple, we have to watch out when he is next in line for an attack because Metal Blade gets beaten out by Purple but none of the others. Crash Bomb detonates on any others. Yellow Pikmin are immune to Charge Shot and Spark Shock's electric-type damage. Red is immune to Flame Blast's fire damage (but most Mega Man players don't use dsmash or fsmash that much).

I'd say this matchup is 50:50 really. Both characters are going to stay out until they're ready to go in. Olimar has a better long range game and Mega Man is slightly better up close.

 

[Blue Banana]

Robot Rock has ended. Thanks for all the responses.

is an even matchup though it may depend on how well the Olimar player can deal with the gyro shenanigans. I remember some Oli players saying that R.O.B. is one of his worst matchups.

is an even matchup.

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Discussion 11 - Just Some Average, Everyday Kids

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Ness Frame Data
Villager Frame Data

Note: If Villager pockets Pikmin Throw (side B), the pocketed Pikmin will not have the same projectile properties as Olimar's Pikmin when thrown (i.e. it will not latch onto an opponent). Instead, it has the properties of Kirby's Olimar Copy Ability Pikmin, where essentially every Pikmin has the properties of a purple side B (acts as a "real" projectile), generally deals more damage than Olimar's default purple side B, and dies immediately after touching ground. Kirby's Pikmin deal 5%-8% depending on color with decent knockback, so with Villager's 1.9 multiplier, expect pocketed Pikmin to deal roughly 10-15 damage and a lot of knockback.

Also, since the pocketed Pikmin is not in Olimar's "line" anymore, he can still pluck another one if he had 3 before the Pikmin was pocketed.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Ness)

Q&A thread would be better, but I'll try to answer your questions anyway. For Ness just camp him out like normal and try to use reds to catch the PK Fire. You can even fsmash through it with a red and if Ness runs in he's gonna get hit. As for juggling it's kinda character dependent in some cases you can try to land with a nair or dair if you know you can beat their attack. You could also just try to airdodge through them and land. Like you said going to the ledge is a tactic, and it can be the best option in some cases. You could also try using your upB in the air and cancelling with a nair if they overextend to much in the air.

After fighting (and losing) matches against some Ness players on For Glory, I have these tips for you:
- Don't get grabbed. It sounds like an obvious tip, but this is much more important against Ness because he has a lot of options he can use when he grabs you, depending on your percentage:
At low percentages, he'll Dthrow you and follow up with one or two Fairs, usually guaranteed.
At mid percentages, he'll Uthrow and juggle you with PK Thunder.
At around 90-100%, he can Bthrow you for a KO.
Because of this, it might be ideal to not use your shield too frequently, as that will just prompt Ness into grabbing you. Keep this in mind if he approaches you with dash attack, as that might just condition you to shield in response to Ness's dash. I can't stress this enough: don't get grabbed.
- Don't underestimate the range of his Fsmash. The bat's hitbox is larger than its actual size makes it to be, and since all of your smashes are projectiles, you need to be cautious when approaching if the Ness player likes to swing the bat a lot. At long range, reflecting thrown Pikmin isn't too much to worry about since they don't do much damage initially and can be recalled by Down B, but be wary of throwing purples.
- PK Thunder can be cancelled by Dair (maybe only with yellows? can't remember), but it isn't too reliable since Ness can manipulate the direction in any way he wants. As for avoiding the juggling, I'm having trouble with it myself, so I can't offer advice on that.
- If you escape the juggling from PK Thunder, be extremely cautious in punishing him while he's vulnerable, as he can direct Thunder into himself and smash you for probably a KO. Bait out the Thunder charge attack by getting close to him, then shield or jump above him. That should allow you to punish with a grab or a sourspot Fsmash.
- Dash attack has a lot of priority and hits 3 times, so shield or do a retreating short hop depending on the situation.
- Fair and Usmash(?) also has a lot of priority, so be careful when you're chasing Ness in the air for aerial followups or if you're recovering from Thunder juggling, respectively.
- PK Fire has only 2 trajectories: straight along the ground, and a downward angle in the air. If you're close enough to punish, short hop over grounded PK Fire. If not, red Fsmash or red Side B will ignite PK Fire early, like Myran said.
- Don't get grabbed.

These might be inaccurate because I don't have much experience with this matchup yet, but this is what I experienced and thought about.

In my opinion the red pikmin will be your friend. Ness often uses PK Fire and the red pikmin won't be killed by pk fire and instead go through pk fire. So for pikmin throw, use the red and yellow ones. (yellow only if he tries to keep you with pk thunder away) Also the red one is nice for an fsmash through pk fire. (As Ness likes to grab you after pk fire or at least to hit you with something; so a fire-resistent smash would be a nice surprise)

If you have other pikmin colors, I feel like you have to throw them from a "diagonal" position(so in general from in the air on his head)

Also in general keep yourself away from Ness. I've practiced the MU much lately and keeping your distance is very important for this one. Your grabrange is a big issue as you will be exposed for pk fire. So I would only go for grabs if you're almost sure your ennemy won't go for pk fire in that moment.

@MrHakuchu
I have many problems against Yoshi too. Purple pikmins are always nice to have against Yoshi to keep him away and punish him for approaching. Also it seems pivot grabs and pivot smashes are important especially to punish his strong aerials. However I still feel like it's really hard to win against Yoshi. His egg throw i.e. is pretty hard to punish in my opinion. And Yoshi's nair kills attached pikmins pretty fast.

side b to gimp em off stage, ness cant really do much when we get the grab.

ness also has trouble approaching us when we space f-smashes and grabs

matchup is in oli's favor, but not by much as ness can combo us easily and kill us super early if he ever does get the grab off on us.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily in Ness' favor. He can stay in the air quite a bit, and nair destroys everything we do. We also die fairly easily to his bthrow and uair.

If in Oli's favor, it's a slim amount. A good Ness is a pain to fight.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Villager)

Fsmash also rips right through Gyroid and keeps going to hit Villager if it survives. Just throwing that out there, since Villagers seem to rely on it for cover while they approach.
Villager could use it to manipulate Oli's line by pocketing only certain pikmin or use it in defense, but a decent Oli knows how to manage.

EDIT: Wow, didn't realize I was on the wrong page. Sorry. ><

Alright you guys, I just got back from a tournament and I was doing fine until I came across a villager with the tripping down B. As an Oli main this really sucks because as I found out it will actually get your Pikmin caught in an infinite tripping loop, and it can halt your forward smash. That on top of the normal problems with that custom made that match very very rough. Any ideas on how to deal with this particular custom?

Hi Villager-Olimar co-main here! Timber counter( the tripping sapling) actually lasts longer than the standard timber sapling, as well as the tree. I've heard talks of this custom getting banned, which I would be severely disappointed by, but I do admit it can be kinda dumb sometimes.

To be honest, I don't have much XD. Playing both characters doesn't mean I necessarily know how to fight either with the other. I know a Villager's main gameplan is to launch a lloid, and then mix it up from there, and there are several ways he can do this. As villager, I love it when people jump because then I can pelt them with my slingshot, or if they airdodge then punish with a nair or fair. When they shield the lloid is when I personally have the hardest time because I always jump over the lloid I launched, and because Villager doesn't have the best air movement, I kinda committed to that jump so I need to follow up somehow, and usually I do this with either a nair or a fair, neither of which are safe on shield. This leads to me getting punished hard.

What all this means for Olimar is that he probably wants to just wait on the ground and react to the lloid from there. If you shield the lloid and villager is coming in from above, you will most likely get a grab or down smash. Of course if the Villager reads your shield, then he can get a grab on you, which if free damage, but no follow up is guaranteed. Fighting Villager is really a big rock paper scissors game, and between Olimar and Villager, I imagine it'd just be a campfest to see who commits too hard and messes up first.

I'll let you guys in on a secret: Villager's recovery is NOT as amazing as we all once thought. Yes it may go farther than everybody else's, meaning he can go the deepest for gimps, but it has two major weaknesses.

1. It's not very fast.
2. It doesn't have hitbox, nor can Villager produce a hitbox at all from the up b.(unless customs are on, in which case the explosive balloons would be used)

This means that if Villager is recovering against an edgeguarder, the edgeguarder can run off and stuff it somehow for free, without risk of getting hit(unless customs are on, in which case exploding balloons would definitely hit you). For Olimar, I'd recommend a dair or bair.

Ok I guess I do have a few ideas on this MU lol. TL;DR Villager is a huge pain to fight, but once you get the hang of how his gameplan works, Olimar has the tools to deal with it. Mainly learning to deal with lloid properly based on how the Villager follows up. Olimar is no Falcon or Yoshi, so it won't be so easy, but if all else fails, you can camp too.

Easiest way to commit a pivot grab is:

• Having a button dedicated for grab.
• Do both inputs at the same time (left stick to your pivot direction + grab button).

There is no way you can miss that way .

Also for the getting hit by the fireball while he's coming to you from a short hop, just do a pivot smash then another fsmash, problem resolved :D.

As Myran said, I'm more afraid of Sheik than Mario T_T.


I do @Soulimar , it's far way easier than it looks.
You have to take proper distance and try to latch a Pikmin to him when he does the drop -> grab the ledge game.
Once it has one, you may sit and see how he wrack up damage or tries to shake it off. If he does, you can jump over the little tree (short hop) and go ahead, near the edge, to try to D-B-F Air. It has to be done after he release the edge, so he doesn't have immunity.

Fair enough till now, but respect the Fair of Villager 'cause it will probably start to connect when you approach. Again, try to latch a pikmin to him and try it like that or try to adapt it to your style.

On the other hand, you can try to edge trump (that's the name of stealing the ledge?), so he lost the immunity. Another good choice, but very very risky one, when you are in the mid-range battle or in the air close to the ledge, try to go under him and Uair his recovery. Of course he will try to Dair, but the balloons hits above Villager in contact (if I am wrong, please correct me).

I'm not quite sure if I explain myself right, but it worked for me. I may have 1 or 2 replays doing this and destroying a villager who does it. So if you believe I have some point on here but it's not clear yet, just tell me and I will send it to you the replay in-game .

Destroy the Lloid with a Fsmash. Its hitbox doesn't appear until it starts moving, but it can be destroyed before it does. Fsmash is a good option because it both destroys the Lloid and hits Villager as long as you're close enough. Alternatively, since the hitbox doesn't appear until it moves, you can run past the Lloid and hit Villager directly with an attack, including Usmash, if you're quick enough.

Just be careful with this since attacking the lloyd to make it explode gives it extra knockback make sure you're spaced properly.

Discussion will be closed on Saturday, January 9.

(no music links this week)

 

[Funkermonster]

I know you just ended the MM discussion but I thought I'd add some notes on it from ScAtt's opinions, arguably the best Mega Man right now.

Admittedly, I've only played against one competent Olimar (Myran) in a serious set, but I feel as if neither character has the tools to completely shut the other out. Pellets are stuffed by Pikmin, but that's where MB comes in handy since it cuts right through pikmin toss barring purples. Easiest way that I've found to get pikmin off is to Rush Coil -> U-air on the way down -> bounce off rush into said U-air. If he's in the air, all of his aerials just lose to all of our aerials. Granted, his damage output is leagues above MM, but luckily, we have the weight to take it all.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Oh hey, I actually play these two often!

- Vs. Villager -
Nasty, nasty matchup. Heavily in Olimar's favor, IMO (and in our resident Villager main's opinion). If you space and camp carefully, Villager has a really hard time getting in, building damage, AND closing out the stock.

- Fsmash cuts RIGHT through slingshot and gyroid and keeps going. Pikmin toss can block them too, but they don't just cut through like Fsmash (unless purple, OFC).
- Villager has to work really, really hard. The Pocket shenanigan Blue Banana mentioned is one of his/her big options for dealing with our ranged game, but we can still outspam him/her as long as we're careful not to get hit. If anything, use it to help filter.

== Other big things to look for==
- His/her Nair is like Kirby/DHD's Nairs, Villager spins and his/her body becomes a hitbox. Like most sex kicks, this can cut through some of our stuff. Pivot grab it.
- Turnips (Dair/Uair) are kind of the same. They linger for a moment, but they also vary in strength. Watch for approaching SH Dairs or Uair juggles if they pop you up. Also, if the Villager pulls three turnips on a Dair, it becomes a spike.
- Villager's Fair/Gyroid DO beat our grab. Gyroid acts independently of the Villager and comes out INCREDIBLY fast (like frame 2 or something? Never checked).
- Dtilt (the weed pluck) has a deceptively huge hitbox. I think it's also good for killing pikmin because of its size.
- When recovering, be aware of bowling balls and trees. Tree takes a wee bit of time to set up but bowling balls just come right out and drop FAST. Don't recover directly under the ledge.
- Villager's grab is kind of weird, but his/her Bthrow is reeeeeeeally strong.



- Vs. Ness -
Ness actually feels like a really even and strangely complex matchup. A lot of the matchup requires experience and knowledge of what he can do at any given range.

==LONG-RANGE==
- He often tries to close the space behind pillars of PK Fire or with stuff like dash attack or shorthop aerials.
- This is a matchup where you really have to police your pikmin and whistle them back often. He can set up pillars of PK Fire on stray pikmin, helping his approach. Just be careful about it and notice when he can do it. This applies to mid-range play as well.
- He seems to have a really easy time getting pikmin off with Uair/Nair/PK Fire/Utilt/whatever.

==CLOSE-RANGE==
- Foxtrot away to Fsmash to create space. Fsmash spacing goes a long way in this one, even though it leaves a pikmin on the ground for a PK Fire setup. Creating space and smashing or pivot grabbing is a big thing, as usual.
- Grounded PK Fire beats a few of our options, including grab. Shielding the initial bolt makes it disappear on contact with your shield, but shielding the fire pillar does not.
- When he gets in, he juggles. He has a lot to extend his combos/juggles, including Uair (sometimes delayed), Utilt (sometimes after a failed Uair or to catch landings), Bair (actually has some small disjoint and weak KB when sourspotted), Fair (can combo into itself like four times at low percents, OMG), dash attack (catches landings and has surprising range), UpB (often comes out when you're too far away for an actual follow-up, like after an Uair, but they like to loop it around sometimes to PKT2 and catch landings).
- His primary kill moves will probably be Nair, Uair, and Bthrow, though he can also kill with many other things (like Fsmash or a Fair near the edge).

= His Bthrow is super-strong. Look for it when you get above like...90, though it might not kill at that percent. It really depends on rage and positioning.
= Nair is really strong when sweetspotted, cuts through a lot of our crap, and can be used to catch roll-ins and the like without making a big commitment. Good move to catch dodge options, sometimes used delayed.
= Uair really strong and a bit large. He can actually cut through our Fsmash with falling Uair and STILL hit us. It can be used similarly to Nair.​

- His Fsmash is also super-strong, able to kill us at like 70-80 with no rage. It's slightly telegraphed, so expect it as a hard read or to catch a landing. It also reflects, so be aware of that. It doesn't come out too often because of the startup/endlag, though.

=OTHER STUFF=
- A latched pikmin no longer auto-gimps him. You have to hit the head of the PK Thunder after it comes out. Alternatively, you can spike him while he's circling it around if he's close enough, but DON'T MISS or you'll eat a PKT2. I lost a tournament set this way. :<
- If he follows you with PK Thunder while you're in the air, you can sometimes attack right through it or snipe it with pikmin toss, depending on location. For example, if he's juggling you from below with it, you can often just fastfall a Dair and cut through. If you're about to toss your pikmin away while recovering, aim for it. Stuff like that.

I'm probably forgetting a lot of important stuff as I just woke up and am rather sleepy. ^^;
Please help me out if I am.

 

[Jompa]

In my opinion Villager destroys us completely.
D-tilt kills pikmin instantly, anywhere they're latched, and it's nearly lagless, so our main punish-game (grabs) is pretty much completely gone, or at least extremely dangerous. Villager has a lot of kill options that have no trouble finishing us off at below 100% or much earlier, while we really don't have anything reliable to kill with other than hard reads on ledge-getups, or stray grabs with the blue pikmin, both of which will require villager to be at at least 120%, if we're lucky.
If played near-optimally, villager's moves either have no startup-lag, or no ending-lag, making it impossible to punish. We can powershield an f-smash, but they'll still be completely safe. And that f-smash would've killed us at 60%. Going for a punish in this situation will even most of the time end up in us eating another fast and strong move that'll kill us instead.
Villager is one of those characters that can seriously camp us out completely, because of the lagless moves, and immunity to latching pikmin.
As for edgeguarding, a bowling ball from the ledge can kill us at 30%, and the only way to avoid recovering into this is to fly far enough over it, but that is bad too because of the disadvantageous position we end up in.
And we have some real trouble ledgeguarding Villager, as he thrives off-stage, and the only good finishing-option would be to go for a spike, but that's so hard to land, and Villager just gets up from it anyways, having the longest recovery and all. And then we end up in a terrible situation with turnips or bowling balls. We can, however, grab Villager off of the ledge when they don't have invincibility, but it is very possible for Villager to avoid this situation.
Villagers just have so many traps in neutral that force us into either a super-disadvantageous situation, or a kill, and their damage-racking-game is much stronger than ours in the matchup.
So I believe the matchup to be very disadvantageous for us. As expected from such a good character though.

As for Ness, it's like you'd expect: he's a much better character than us, with a lot of strong killing moves, but if one can just avoid encounters and strong moves, and bull****, the matchup isn't as bad as with most of the rest of the top-characters.

 

[Blue Banana]

If anyone has something to say about the Ness/Villager MUs, please do by Saturday. Right now, the opinions given on the Villager MU contrast each other so much; more thoughts would really help solidify the general opinion on it.

 

[StripedNinja]

Villagers main tool for getting stage control is his Rocket, which fsmash eats right through. That is huge. Her tree doesn't block our projectiles so she really can't camp us out at all. And though villager doesn't have no way to approach he doesn't want to. Outside of that we have better combos and a better kill throw. And his edgegaurding antics are easier to get around that other characters with our recovery. We hard win this matchup I would say.

 

[Jompa]

Villager can just stay in the air when approaching, as he ofc beats our moves and lands pretty lagless. It's true that Villager can't fight us the way he fights other characters, but this is still a matchup where he can camp even safer than usual, while we can't camp at all. And Villager has destructive kill potensial, while we have some of the weakest in the game (and very unsafe in this MU). I'd say that in this MU, both characters will kill of reads/mistakes of the opponent, but the only difference is that Villager does it safely and kills very early, while our reads are even more clutch and will pretty much never kill before 100%, as well as us being less safe in both defense and approaching/punishing. A high-level/top-level Villager definitely wins the matchup big-time.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Villager and Ness matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

is an even matchup.

is an advantageous/heavily advantageous matchup, but this is only tentative because the opinions given here is either "heavy advantage" or "heavy disadvantage", with advantage only winning out 2-1.

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With this week's discussion included, a little less than half of the characters in the game have been (generally) covered, all of them threats to consider in a tournament. What's left is to cover the other half:

Spoiler: Undiscussed Characters

/

Aside from the last three DLC characters, all of them have been put into separate discussion groups, shown above. However, these groups aren't in order of when they'll be discussed because I haven't decided on that yet.

So, since there's only one character in this current discussion, I want some opinions on what characters should be given priority. Preferably, I want them before this discussion ends so I have some ideas on how to organize the upcoming weeks, but any suggestions after this week are still welcome.

will be appended to whatever set of characters is discussed on the first week of February, given his performance in several tournaments. and will be covered about 6-8 weeks as a separate set after their release depending on their tournament performances.

EDIT: Forgot about Shulk.

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Discussion 12 - BINGO BATTLE!

/

Olimar Frame Data

No quotes this time.

Since there's only one matchup this week, discussion will be closed a little earlier on Friday, January 15.