Data Palutena's Match Ups - NEW FORMAT: ALL CHARACTER DISCUSSION

LyonelNoale · Jan 13, 2015

Why have I decided to place this with an open character discussion, rather than a selective one?

Well. First of all, it works better with the slowness of this thread.
Secondly, I just want to record random information from matches... and you should too! Whenever you notice something worthwhile, just drop it into this thread.
Finally, I do plan to EVENTUALLY collect and make a compilation of all the information mentioned within this thread, regarding match-ups between characters and different moves. Thanks for your contributions!

OFFICIAL (?) PALUTENA MATCH-UP THREAD! HERE WE GO!

Match-Up Table

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| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

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CURRENTLY DISCUSSING: Zero-Suit Samus AND/OR Sonic!

General Match-Up Information

Nothing yet! - Quotes will go here

Previous Match-Up Information

BOWSER

CAPTAIN FALCON

Will eventually copy most significant quotes here

Diddy Kong

Will eventually copy most significant quotes here

LyonelNoale · Jan 13, 2015

***UNDER CONSTRUCTION - but feel free to post!!***

(For the most part, this is just a collection of personal knowledge and things that I've observed, but please, feel free to contribute any facts that you have to offer! This thread is mostly meant to be various tips and techniques that can be used as definite counters to certain strategies and playstyles and moves that are used by other characters, and will place a lot of focus on Moves... i.e. What moves cancel other moves, which attacks are the most effective against opponents, what to punish, etc.~)

(I plan to go through every character in alphabetical order, starting with Bowser, and ending with Zero-suit Samus. Right now, I'm just collecting as much information as possible before sorting it into an actual list. Please share whatever you can to help!)

THIS POST FOCUSES ON MOVES - only the default ones, however. Sorry!
**the second post will focus on overall strategy, using the knowledge accumulated in the first post. I think. Might combine all into one post. We will see.**

I'm planning on dividing each character up into different sections... I'm thinking:
1. Palutena's Moves (which will consist of each of her moves being listed, and a "use often", "only when appropriate", "rarely" or "never" beside it, as well as a description of my reasoning, if needed)
2. Move Match-ups (which consists of her opponent's moves being listed, and the various Counters to those moves)
3. Moves to Watch Out For (these will be the banes of Palutena's existence, or, conversely, her greatest pleasures. I will point out which moves are best to bait out, which are punishable, and which ones to fear. In the second post, which covers strategy, I'll actually go over this in more detail, and also cover how to counter the various strategies and techniques regarding these various moves~!)

(**A lot of this information is gathered from various posts on the internet, so they haven't all been tested, although I will try to test them, if I get the chance - if you notice that something is wrong, or misinterpreted/misrepresented, please, let me know!)

(** Note to self - Add pictures!)

Information Regarding Moves:

- BOWSER

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Bowser Jr. -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Captain Falcon -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Charizard -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Dark Pit -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Diddy Kong -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Donkey Kong -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Dr. Mario -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Duck Hunt -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Falco - Up Smash beats Side B, difficult to pull off but VERY rewarding

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Fox - Up Smash beats Side B, difficult to pull off but VERY rewarding

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Ganandorf -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Greninja -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Ike - Up B can be gimped by Reflect

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Jigglypuff -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

King Dedede - (Palu's Up Tilt vs. Dedede's Up B? must test)

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Kirby -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Link -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Lil Mac - Side B can be gimped by Reflect, hurray! Time to punish!

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Lucario -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Lucina -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Luigi -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Mario -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Marth -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Mega Man -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Meta Knight -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Mr. Game & Watch -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Ness -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Olimar -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

PAC-MAN -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Palutena - (this one is going to be especially interesting)

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Peach -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Pikachu -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Pit -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

R.O.B. -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Robin -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Rosalina & Luma -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Samus -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Sheik -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Shulk -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Sonic - spin dash is cancelled by Jab! (can this be combo'd into a grab? Must test)

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Toon Link -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Villager -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Wario -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Wii Fit Trainer -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Yoshi -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Zelda -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Zero-Suit Samus -

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

Mii Fighters (?)

1. PALUTENA'S MOVES (what to use... and what NOT to use~!)

2. MOVE MATCH UPS (what moves cancel? what moves don't?)

3. MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR (how your opponent can make or break the match)

**this is going to be edited a lot, so... here we go~

LyonelNoale · Jan 13, 2015

***UNDER CONSTRUCTION - but feel free to post!!***

THIS POST FOCUSES ON STRATEGY
(**A lot of this information is gathered from various posts on the internet, so haven't all been tested - if you notice that something is wrong, or misinterpreted/misrepresented, please, let me know!)

We will look at the PROS and the CONS of each match-up, as well!

(** Note to self - Add pictures!)

GENERAL OVERVIEW OF USING PALUTENA:
If you've decided to main Palutena, or are simply looking into her as a character, you've probably noticed that she requires a very different playstyle than what most people are used to.

Palutena rewards the patient player, but she gets heavily punished when the person using her is much too eager. When using her, don't get greedy - if you haven't noticed already, the severe amount of lag both before and after most of her moves make randomly throwing out attacks a bad decision. You need precision, observation, and a playstyle that adapts to the opponent in order to obtain that well-earned win.

...etc. (Add more detail later)

Bowser -

PROS & CONS

Pros:
- Bowser is a very heavy character, which makes it easy to create Down Throw Combos, even at mid percentages.
- Bowser is slow, so moves like Neutral B can be utilized really well in this match-up.
- Bowser's smashes have a long start up times, so a well placed counter will destroy him.
-When Bowser is in the air and Palutena is on the ground, you have the advantage! Palutena's Up Smash, Up Air, Back Air, Neutral Air, and Up Tilt all have a LOT of priority over Bowser's moves, and due to his large size, it can be fairly easy to hit him while he's in the air. Just be careful when challenging him Air-to-Air; he's got a fair amount of moves he can unleash that have decent range, so it's usually safer to stick on the ground and carefully watch what your opponent's Bowser does.
-

Cons:
- Bowser can KO Palutena at a really early point in the match, due to her light weight and his strength. In especially laggy matches, a lucky hit can mean an instant K.O.
- Being a heavier character, Bowser often takes much longer to kill, depending on the circumstances. Be prepared to play patiently.
-If your opponent properly spaces out their Forward Tilt, it's not only safe on shield, but it also has more range than Palutena's Jab.

[/QUOTE]

General Strategies

Bowser Jr. - Get ready to utilize that reflect!

Captain Falcon - Up Tilt beats out Falcon's Down B (from above)

Charizard -

Dark Pit -

Diddy Kong -

Donkey Kong -

Dr. Mario -

Duck Hunt -

Falco -

Fox -

Ganandorf -

Greninja -

Ike -

Jigglypuff -

King Dedede -

Kirby -

Link -

Lil Mac -

Lucario -

Lucina -

...

On a more serious note, I will add an analysis of the two eventually. But I will still keep this picture here, because I love it.

Luigi -

Mario -

Marth -

Mega Man - Spam reflect. It might seem odd to recommend spamming a move, but against this projectile heavy character, it's an especially good idea. Plus, it forces them to approach, and can force the opponent to fight how you want them to - turn the momentum in your favour! (**edit)

Meta Knight -

Mr. Game & Watch -

Ness -

Olimar -

PAC-MAN -

Palutena - (this one is going to be especially interesting)

Peach -

Pikachu -

Pit -

R.O.B. -

Robin -

Rosalina & Luma -

Samus -

Sheik -

Shulk -

Sonic - *spin dash is cancelled by Jab! (can this be combo'd into a grab? Must test)

Toon Link -

Villager -

Wario -

Wii Fit Trainer -

Yoshi -

Zelda -

Zero-Suit Samus -

Mii Fighters (?)

**this is going to be edited a lot, so... here we go~

Wintropy · Jan 13, 2015

Thank the gods, I've been waiting for a thread like this for ages.

I'll keep an eye on this and contribute anything I may know or have experienced.

LyonelNoale · Jan 13, 2015

Thanks!! This is going to take me quite a bit of time, and I will, for the most part, be going through all the characters in the order I've listed them (starting with Bowser) but uggghh, it looks like so much work... still, I'm really going to enjoy myself. And yes, please, if you notice any sort of move match-ups at all during your play, let me know!

Thanks again!

I'll keep on working hard on this guide, whenever I have time, so it'll be updated pretty frequently.

My only question (as I'm new to Smashboards - joined last night, actually, although I've been lurking for a really long time) is how to change the colour of text? Is it similar to this or something? (just experimenting)

EDIT: WHOA! I figured that out pretty easily, nevermind~

Maraphy · Jan 13, 2015

Woah. You're really serious. If you're dedicated and can regulate the topic every week + make a matchup table (see the matchup thread in the Kirby forum for example) we should definitely sticky this and get to work.

LyonelNoale · Jan 13, 2015

I just looked at the Table...

T_T whaaaaaa but that's so much work... but I suppose that as long as other people help contribute, I don't mind at all!

I would love to get some assistance from the community regarding collecting data, though. I only just joined last night, however, and although I do have a fair amount of experience with the text coding (or whatever jargon is used regarding text), I don't know if I'm the most appropriate person for this job...

I'm probably just going to do this as a gradual project, and slowly accumulate more and more information as I go through each character/review replays, etc. If we set it to 'every two weeks' rather than every week (although, for the most part, I can easily make editing this thread a routine), I'll gladly monitor and edit this thread. As you can see, though, going through each character in the amount of detail that I hope to is going to take a substantial amount of time.

Can someone help me with the matchup table, though? I'm not sure how to format a lot of things here just yet (as I said, just joined last night

) If you have any advice for formatting, etc, I'd really appreciate it. I've got some experience from GaiaOnline as to formatting, but it's still a different site, so I'm just getting accustomed to Smash Boards.

Maraphy · Jan 13, 2015

Welcome to smashboards!

I don't think anyone would really mind if we just copied it, lol. Other character forums such as the Rosalina one are using the same exact table. Making ours fit the universal standard would be beneficial to everyone probably. I think all you need to do is click "Reply" to the post, and it'll give you the code for it. Then all you have to do is paste it in this topic and edit it.

LyonelNoale · Jan 14, 2015

I'm thinking of starting this 'Match Up thread' officially this upcoming Sunday/Monday (since I'll have a bit more time to spare then than I do now). Probably going to be looking at... Bowser, perhaps? Might as well start at the beginning!

Zediwonder · Jan 14, 2015

Well part of a topic like this is also so the players can contribute and help construct everything, I can't imagine one person being able to do analysis of every character at a competitive level.

I'm sure every Palutena player wants to help the others learn and improve so I'll contribute stuff based on what I know of match up's and such when the chances arises, unfortunately I don't know much about characters outside Rosalina, Diddy Kong, Greninja, Lucario and villager. I'm going to tournaments and meet ups more often now so I'll add to any match up I learn about at those!

LyonelNoale · Jan 14, 2015

Ah, thank you!!! I'd really love that!!

Basically, whenever I notice that a move seems to have trumped or been cancelled by another, I just take note of it and then watch the replay again to make sure... so really this is just a collection of everything I notice over time. If you can help, that'd be great!! Thank you so much!!

Maraphy · Jan 14, 2015

I've never fought a good Jigglypuff player on for glory until today... is it just me or do her moves completely cancel out most of ours? I couldn't even jab most of the time.

F-tilt sort of worked in that match due to its longevity/unclashableness but wasn't really a ton of help

LyonelNoale · Jan 14, 2015

So should I add that F-tilt should be either 'Used Often' or 'Used Only When Appropriate?' Did you find anything in particular that I should add? Like which moves specifically cancel each other out? :/

!!! also! Which moves in general did you find to be the most useful? Did you save the match replay?

Maraphy · Jan 14, 2015

I didn't save it : [ I'm not sure to be honest; hopefully someone else has more experience with the matchup, but if I have time I'll try to do some testing.

LyonelNoale · Jan 14, 2015

Okay! If I happen to face another Jigglypuff I'll make sure to take notes so I can help contribute, too :3

Slowly adding more data...! Eventually, I hope to have covered all the moves. As for the "Match-ups" section of the thread that's been suggested, hm... should I move the posts around to allow for that? Like {First Post} --> copied and pasted to {Second Post} and {Second Post} copied and pasted to {Third Post}, with the first being reserved for Matchup information?

Maraphy · Jan 15, 2015

That seems reasonable. Might I also suggest keeping the matchup information in the 1st - 3rd posts under spoilers ( [ spoiler ] and [ / spoiler ] without the spaces) to make scrolling easier?

LyonelNoale · Jan 15, 2015

Okay! Thanks!

Edits, so many T_T so many spoilers to addddd

and then so much to copy and paste and move around too since the posts are out of order

too much T_T

LyonelNoale · Jan 18, 2015

Just going to bump this, since I've finally started making it into an actual match up thread! I do plan to include more details and images later, but for now, this is it!

AeroLink_the_SoulMaster · Jan 18, 2015

I'll go ahead and sticky this as well. This will be very useful knowledge, and I will also give my own input.

@

LyonelNoale If you have multiple things to say after being the last one to post, be sure to edit your post instead of making new posts in a row (double-posting). I know you're new to the site so I'll go ahead and fix that for you; just remember for next time.

LyonelNoale · Jan 19, 2015

Do the posts have a character limit? I wasn't sure so that was one of the main reasons why I divided up the posts.

Also, since it's stickied, I guess that I obviously won't need to bump anymore, so thank you!! I've gotten used to doing that on other forum sites (which are pretty busy, so you have to bump certain posts to keep them on the main page).

xnine · Jan 19, 2015

Perhaps it is because I've yet to face a god Bowser, but I would say that this matchup is heavily in our favor. I find it easy to land every single one of Palutena's aerials on Bowser, including down air when the heavens call to me. I seem to be able to chain nairs for days, and I think that up air beats out Bowser's down B, which is a great plus. You can even autoreticle without being rushed down easily.

Zediwonder · Jan 19, 2015

It's true that Palutena has an easy time hitting Bowser but I wouldn't say it's heavily in Palutena's favour, Bowser is really powerful and one move can change the match around, wheres as Palutena has to go to at least 100% midscreen for a uair KO and maybe 100% on a few smashes Bowser can probably KO Palutena 80% with a lot of moves since she's so light.

I think I'll just put the pro's and cons I know in a list

pro's:
- Bowser is heavy making him easy to combo with dthrow even at mid %
- Bowser is slow
- Bowsers smashes have a long start up so a well placed counter will destroy him

cons:
- Bowser can KO Palutena really early with a lucky hit.
- Being heavy Bowser takes longer to kill in some circumstances
- uairs can be punished horribly with Bowsers dair or dspecial

I really don't know a lot about Bowser, there are no bowser players in my local scene and my friends aren't really good at him at all so I could be wrong about some stuff.

LyonelNoale · Jan 19, 2015

Ah, thank you! If it's alright with you, I'm going to put your Pros and Cons in the Third post, where I plan to put general strategy and techniques. (I'll make sure to credit you, so don't worry.)

AeroLink_the_SoulMaster · Jan 20, 2015

Bowser's ftilt is something you should watch out for, as it's safe on shield if it's spaced properly and it out ranges Palutena's safer moves such as her jab. Bowser's a big target, so you can catch him with nair out of shield. This is a matchup where you can use auto reticle a little more than usual to keep him at bay. You can buffer fairs out of your short hop and space them to where Bowser can't punish; basically it's just approaching with fair and then fading back. Be careful not to use your full jab, but if you do, be sure to end it with the last hit asap since Bowser has light armor and he retaliate with a move of his own once he lands; it's better to use her jab 1, then follow up with a grab. Bowser's heavy, so he will live before 120% from Palutena's dthrow -> upair. Be aware of Bowser's side special command grab when you are shielding, and be ready to react with retaliation or just rolling away.

This is it for now. I think this matchup is even overall (50-50).

xnine · Jan 20, 2015

Side note, just tested Bowser's dair and dspecial against Palutena's uair, and I can confirm that uair beats out both. Utilt is the same, but if you aren't directly under Bowser and the hitbox of the utilt does not immediately connect (since it revolves), then you'll get hit/trade with Bowser.

Zediwonder · Jan 20, 2015

I can understand dair maybe trading with uair, but at all points of the dspecial does uair actually beat it? During start up you can stop the dspecial before it comes out but is it actually possible to stop it midway through the actual attack? I'll have to test it myself, I assumed the stuff about dair and dspecial based off similar moves and I really don't know Bowser at all.

You can of course, but you can see my information is not entirely accurate for a match up I've never gotten to properly play. I'll get my friends to test some stuff with me and get some solid hard facts next time and maybe bring up some new stuff if I can.

xnine · Jan 20, 2015

When I say 'beat' I actually mean that Palutena's uair has priority over both Bowser's dair and dspecial. It's pretty neat!

Zediwonder · Jan 20, 2015

That's actually pretty crazy. I'd say that that gives Palutena a greater advantage over Bowser but unfortunately those moves are pretty unsafe and predictable so I don't think good Bowser players would actually use it too often. But man, if someone didn't know and tried to punish you jumping directly below them that'd be awesome.

FullMoon · Jan 20, 2015

Lady Palutena, the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Palutena MU alongside others so they would appreciated any guidance you have to offer: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-palutena-robin-peach-1-19-1-26.369356/page-9

ddonaldo · Jan 21, 2015

As has been mentioned our uair and utilt beat out bowser's bomb and dair. Since bowser has no "get off me" aerials we generally can keep him in unfavorable positions,off the top of my head his jab and ftilt are quick and have good range but I think we have the advantage in this matchup, but most of the times the better player with better spacing and reads will win. 55:45 I would say

T-skjorte Ninja · Jan 22, 2015

Perfect timing. I'm being wrecked by a Bowser who's better at psacing than I am.

Pivot grabbing and pivot FTilt. Those are the most dangerous attacks of his.
ANd he punishes my Auto Reticle and Barrier spam. :V

What do.

Wintropy · Jan 22, 2015

Read.

If you notice it's a staple move of his, chances are he's using it enough to make it a recurring feature of his playstyle. Now you just need to read his movements and respond accordingly.

This will either go in one of two ways:

1. He'll think it was a fluke or a lucky shot and keep doing it anyway, punish at your leisure.

2. He'll cop on and do something else, possibly reading your reads and punishing you instead.

What you need to remember here is that flowcharting does not work. If you notice he's doing the same moves because they work, then punish him for it. If he notices you're punishing his moves and he starts punishing your punishes, then you need to punish him again. It's a case of outwitting your opponent as much as it is outfighting them. Especially with a fast heavy-hitter like Bowser, you can't rely on brute force to seize the day. You need to outsmart him and take advantage of his strengths.

And spamming Autoreticle and Reflect is not a good idea against Booze. He's huge and fast, and the only move of his that you can reflect is a constant-fire move that doesn't really do enough damage to warrant countering in the first place. He's slow to strike, and if spacing and pivots are what's catching you out, learn to counter them instead. I find that spotdodging and shield-grab works well, since by the time he reacts, you're already open to hit him.

T-skjorte Ninja · Jan 22, 2015

Hm. Challlenging to a grab doens't seem to work, as either his grab speed is beter, or a better range. Or' I'm slow.

When I spotdodge, he starts his USpecial, or DSmash. Roll dodge and he grabs me. So far, I find it safer to shield jump, if not being pressured.

Oh yeah. I can't seem to get my DThrow combos to connect.

Wintropy · Jan 22, 2015

Regardless of why it happens or how, it's a good idea to work on your reflexes out of principle. Never hurts to be quick in the first instance.

Roll-dodging is super punishable if your opponent reads it. Again, Bowser is huge. You will have a hard time challenging him in terms of physical strength. So get your wits about you and read him like a very big, very scaly book.

Mid-air Autoreticle can work as a pressure tool or just to annoy him, but make sure you've got enough distance to pull it off. What you want ideally is to lure him over to you and punish him for making stupid mistakes.

Out of interest, are you rushing him? That's a dangerous tactic for anybody against Booze, but especially Palutena, who can't even rely on her jab or dash attack to ensure that you get to catch him first and go.

T-skjorte Ninja · Jan 22, 2015

He's rushing me and I'm trying to run away. He somehow manages to catch up.

Oh, how does ledgegame works? His fire is just annoying, but other than that, I somehow always eats his FSmash.

Wintropy · Jan 22, 2015

Bowser is ridiculously fast and covers space easily. Don't try to run away all the time, or you'll be at his mercy, and that's not somewhere you want to be. Keep your distance and space him, but don't let him dominate you.

You want to lure him out and get him to strike and miss, but not let him take control of the match. Pressure him by throwing in a surprise b-air or shorthop n-air. If he's chasing you and is determined to grab or hit you, he may well run right into them. Another good tactic is to just pivot and run right behind him, then either pivot grab or pivot f-smash. Palutena is just as fast as Booze with regards to dashing and you can catch him off-guard by doing a quick pivot behind him and then pivoting again when he's trying to adjust to the new positioning.

As for ledgegame: try to warp behind him if you can. Aim to snap onto the ledge if possible and wait for an opening to either jump -> n-air / f-air or ledge attack.

If you're edgeguarding, n-air works wonders. Jump, n-air, jump back, warp if needs be. Against a big target like Bowser, it's a miracle edgeguarding tool. Possibly - POSSIBLY - try for a d-air, but ONLY if you feel confident in pulling it off and spiking him.

LyonelNoale · Jan 25, 2015

Alright, I've started compiling a lot of the information for Bowser together (as you can see if you check the spoiler). I think I'll leave this thread on the topic of Bowser for one more week (I need to get more information regarding fighting him) and then I'll post a final summary, and move on to the next character!

faderpotater · Jan 25, 2015

In my opinion I would say this matchup is 60-40 with us in favor. Because of his size he is much easier to poke and hit with auto-reticle. However you have to be careful because he hits so hard. Good bowser players are going to be just as skilled at spacing and timing as us so you shouldn't get lax with your movement or go for risky maneuvers. Personally I like to stay just out of his range if possible and poke when I know my aerial will come out before his or when he whiffs. I also feel avoiding rolling in this mu as if they read a roll they can punish with a smash. Trying to gimp them offstage is probably the best bet for killing.

Wintropy · Jan 25, 2015

Agree with this verbatim. His smashes are all laden with endlag, so you can easily get a d-throw -> u-air in on them. The fact that our u-air also beats his u-air and down-b is a huge boon for us. A good Bowser won't use them regularly, but if you do see them doing it, you basically have a free hit.

It's not much of a huge shift in our favour, but I think that this matchup is still tilted slightly towards us. It's a case of pacing, spacing, outsmarting and punishing. We excel at all of those things. We need to keep our wits about us, but if done well, we've got him right where we want him.

Zediwonder · Jan 25, 2015

Unfortunately I don't think anyone here has any experience against good Bowser players, perhaps we should ask the Bowser board for advice like the Greninja board did for us earlier.

Bowser is still a strong character and one hit can literally turn the match around so the better we know the match up the safer it will become. I'll agree to the 60 - 40 in our favour from results I've had against Bowser players but none of them have been at top level play when I versed them.

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