Venks
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2007
- Messages
- 375
- NNID
- VenksUSA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted on Berathen.com - Go there for better formatting and pictures.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oz Comic Con has come and passed. I spent the majority of my time at the convention playing Super Smash Bros Wii U and was quite happy with the short wait times. I'd like to take the time and talk about the few things I noticed about this game.
As a disclaimer I'd like to note that these are my feelings of the game based around 14 hours of gameplay that primarily comprised of four person free-for-alls, with items on, in two minute matches. With anywhere between 0 to 6 minute waits between getting a new match I'd say I played at least 140 rounds.
The chaos makes it really difficult to properly judge the game. Not to mention this build, the same one we saw at E3, is an older build of the game and things will probably change when the game is released.
Super Armor
Characters had super armor in Brawl, but this time it's seeing much more use thanks to Pit, Bowser, and Little Mac joining the super armor users. Because of this, I think super armor will need to be understood by more players. It depends on the character and which attack it is, but these super armor attacks don't have super armor right on start up, but during their animation.
When two characters with super armor attack each other, the character who attacks last, wins. So for example, if Donkey Kong uses his Giant Punch and it hits Little Mac as the boxer moves forward with his side smash then Little Mac will take the damage, but continue to bash Donkey Kong. In this scenario it would be DK who goes flying away.
I luckily got to play a lot of matches with super armor vs super armor and have to say the more patient player generally gets the upper hand. Alternatively, any character can just block these attacks as most of them are rather slow and punishable on block. I think this has been balanced out pretty well.
Spiking
It appears that spiking has gotten a buff this time around. It used to be that the only way to get a ground bounce off a spike was by spiking someone as their feet were on the ground. This was not the case at Oz Comic Con.
Both Samus and Bowser showed me that they can spike a character in the air and that the hit character will fly into the ground and then bounce back up.
In one instance a character was in the middle of rising through the top platform on Battlefield. Bowser used his down air from above and crashed into the platform and spiked the rising player. The player plummeted down onto the bottom of Battlfield and then bounced back up, all the way past the stage's ceiling. Leading to a Star KO.
Essentially this means two things for Smash 4. One being that spikes are lethal above stage at higher percents. This could potentially lead to some early KOs much like Kirby's throw when used in tandem with platforms.
Secondly this creates more combo potential. During a match I was watching Samus was able to spike a character down with her down air and then combo them with her back air as they bounced back up. This was a stable of Samus's back in the 64 days, but now that her opponent doesn't have to be on the ground during her down air it makes this set up that much more powerful.
Knock Back
I'm sure knock back for this game isn't set in stone yet. Sakurai has said himself that they are still tweaking things to balance the game as best as they can. I'm sure that he paid close attention during the Invitational and that will effect the game in some way during its development. That said the knock back isn't as random as a lot of people are saying.
A lot of people like to point to the Grand Final match of the Invitational as an example of random knockback. Pointing out how Kirby could KO Zero Suit Samus during an up throw, but wasn't able to do the same thing on his next life.
The thing here is the first time HungryBox used his up-throw to take out Zero he had not used a single up-throw that stock. It was fresh. But when he tried to KO Zero with it on his next stock it was his third time using it in that single stock alone. The reduced knock back is due to Stale Move Negation.
There's a lot going on during four person FFAs, with items on, with random stages in hectic two minute matches. A lot of the things we think we see aren't exactly true. Personally I've noticed consistent results for my own knock back.
Any character that wasn't Donkey Kong, Bowser, or Link were all knocked out by Little Mac's Up Smash at 100% or higher. Every single time.
I never experienced anything odd or random about that knock back. What does seem odd though is that characters like Pit and Greninja would not make it near the blast zone if I up smashed them at 92~96%. But again they could be star KO'd at 100% or higher.
It is strange that such a small difference of percent was preventing me from landing KOs. This has never been the case in older Smash games. You wouldn't see such a huge contrast in knock back with just 4%. However, it's important to note that this wasn't random. It was consistent. Every up smash I landed with Little Mac on characters around 90% would always survive (excluding up smashes on top of platforms and on some of the lighter characters like Olimar).
My hypothesis is that the knock back isn't based purely on the percentage number but actually on percentage levels. So that 92% and 96% actually have the exact same knock back. This isn't that big of a deal at first, but if this is the case and 99% and 100% have significantly different knock back then this is definitely a game changer.
Personally I can't prove my hypothesis as there are two variables that make this difficult to test. Stale Move Negation and character weight. In order to test this out I would need a completely fresh up smash and need to be hitting the same character at the same elevation at exact percentages.
I could be wrong about this due to all the chaos, but I did make a conscious effort to look at percentages right before landing my attacks. I didn't have this theory initially, I was originally trying to learn at what percentages certain moves could KO. And it was because of this that I noticed this strange knock back scaling between small percentage differences.
We'll have to wait and see if this turns out to be true when the game releases. And even then I do expect some attack knock back changes between now and then, just like what we see with Mega Man since his showcase against Mario.
Shield Breaking
Shield breaking is looking to be more of a thing this time around. For instance, one of the earlier Miiverse posts talks about Marth's Shield Breaker being more powerful against shields than before. We've also seen Bowser one-hit a shield using his down+B. Other attacks that have destroyed my practically full shield have been Bowser's new side smash and Little Mac's Straight Lunge.
In previous games shield grabbing was a very powerful tool for punishing blocked attacks. Especially in Brawl due to the lack of l-cancels to make certain aerials safe. I feel shield grabbing will still be very strong in Smash 4, but it will require a bit more awareness. Attempting to shield grab certain attacks in this game could potentially leave the defender with a broken shield. I'm looking forward to seeing how the shield-game plays out in the next Smash.
Miscellaneous
With all of that out of the way let me just point out a couple things I've noticed.
*Samus's down air attack has next to no landing lag.
*Bowser's forward air is far less laggy then it was in Brawl.
*Bowser's up smash has super armor
*Bowser's new side smash is significantly more powerful and can KO some characters at 50% with no charge.
*Villager's falling tree can KO light weights at 50%, probably much earlier if at the edge
*Heavy weight characters seem to take another 10% before being KO'd compared to Brawl
*Not sure if it's % based or just position based, but I've seen several Mega Man players Mega Upper and follow up with Air Shooter to get easy KOs around 80%
Originally posted on Berathen.com - Go there for better formatting and pictures.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oz Comic Con has come and passed. I spent the majority of my time at the convention playing Super Smash Bros Wii U and was quite happy with the short wait times. I'd like to take the time and talk about the few things I noticed about this game.
As a disclaimer I'd like to note that these are my feelings of the game based around 14 hours of gameplay that primarily comprised of four person free-for-alls, with items on, in two minute matches. With anywhere between 0 to 6 minute waits between getting a new match I'd say I played at least 140 rounds.
The chaos makes it really difficult to properly judge the game. Not to mention this build, the same one we saw at E3, is an older build of the game and things will probably change when the game is released.
Super Armor
Characters had super armor in Brawl, but this time it's seeing much more use thanks to Pit, Bowser, and Little Mac joining the super armor users. Because of this, I think super armor will need to be understood by more players. It depends on the character and which attack it is, but these super armor attacks don't have super armor right on start up, but during their animation.
When two characters with super armor attack each other, the character who attacks last, wins. So for example, if Donkey Kong uses his Giant Punch and it hits Little Mac as the boxer moves forward with his side smash then Little Mac will take the damage, but continue to bash Donkey Kong. In this scenario it would be DK who goes flying away.
I luckily got to play a lot of matches with super armor vs super armor and have to say the more patient player generally gets the upper hand. Alternatively, any character can just block these attacks as most of them are rather slow and punishable on block. I think this has been balanced out pretty well.
Spiking
It appears that spiking has gotten a buff this time around. It used to be that the only way to get a ground bounce off a spike was by spiking someone as their feet were on the ground. This was not the case at Oz Comic Con.
Both Samus and Bowser showed me that they can spike a character in the air and that the hit character will fly into the ground and then bounce back up.
In one instance a character was in the middle of rising through the top platform on Battlefield. Bowser used his down air from above and crashed into the platform and spiked the rising player. The player plummeted down onto the bottom of Battlfield and then bounced back up, all the way past the stage's ceiling. Leading to a Star KO.
Essentially this means two things for Smash 4. One being that spikes are lethal above stage at higher percents. This could potentially lead to some early KOs much like Kirby's throw when used in tandem with platforms.
Secondly this creates more combo potential. During a match I was watching Samus was able to spike a character down with her down air and then combo them with her back air as they bounced back up. This was a stable of Samus's back in the 64 days, but now that her opponent doesn't have to be on the ground during her down air it makes this set up that much more powerful.
Knock Back
I'm sure knock back for this game isn't set in stone yet. Sakurai has said himself that they are still tweaking things to balance the game as best as they can. I'm sure that he paid close attention during the Invitational and that will effect the game in some way during its development. That said the knock back isn't as random as a lot of people are saying.
A lot of people like to point to the Grand Final match of the Invitational as an example of random knockback. Pointing out how Kirby could KO Zero Suit Samus during an up throw, but wasn't able to do the same thing on his next life.
The thing here is the first time HungryBox used his up-throw to take out Zero he had not used a single up-throw that stock. It was fresh. But when he tried to KO Zero with it on his next stock it was his third time using it in that single stock alone. The reduced knock back is due to Stale Move Negation.
There's a lot going on during four person FFAs, with items on, with random stages in hectic two minute matches. A lot of the things we think we see aren't exactly true. Personally I've noticed consistent results for my own knock back.
Any character that wasn't Donkey Kong, Bowser, or Link were all knocked out by Little Mac's Up Smash at 100% or higher. Every single time.
I never experienced anything odd or random about that knock back. What does seem odd though is that characters like Pit and Greninja would not make it near the blast zone if I up smashed them at 92~96%. But again they could be star KO'd at 100% or higher.
It is strange that such a small difference of percent was preventing me from landing KOs. This has never been the case in older Smash games. You wouldn't see such a huge contrast in knock back with just 4%. However, it's important to note that this wasn't random. It was consistent. Every up smash I landed with Little Mac on characters around 90% would always survive (excluding up smashes on top of platforms and on some of the lighter characters like Olimar).
My hypothesis is that the knock back isn't based purely on the percentage number but actually on percentage levels. So that 92% and 96% actually have the exact same knock back. This isn't that big of a deal at first, but if this is the case and 99% and 100% have significantly different knock back then this is definitely a game changer.
Personally I can't prove my hypothesis as there are two variables that make this difficult to test. Stale Move Negation and character weight. In order to test this out I would need a completely fresh up smash and need to be hitting the same character at the same elevation at exact percentages.
I could be wrong about this due to all the chaos, but I did make a conscious effort to look at percentages right before landing my attacks. I didn't have this theory initially, I was originally trying to learn at what percentages certain moves could KO. And it was because of this that I noticed this strange knock back scaling between small percentage differences.
We'll have to wait and see if this turns out to be true when the game releases. And even then I do expect some attack knock back changes between now and then, just like what we see with Mega Man since his showcase against Mario.
Shield Breaking
Shield breaking is looking to be more of a thing this time around. For instance, one of the earlier Miiverse posts talks about Marth's Shield Breaker being more powerful against shields than before. We've also seen Bowser one-hit a shield using his down+B. Other attacks that have destroyed my practically full shield have been Bowser's new side smash and Little Mac's Straight Lunge.
In previous games shield grabbing was a very powerful tool for punishing blocked attacks. Especially in Brawl due to the lack of l-cancels to make certain aerials safe. I feel shield grabbing will still be very strong in Smash 4, but it will require a bit more awareness. Attempting to shield grab certain attacks in this game could potentially leave the defender with a broken shield. I'm looking forward to seeing how the shield-game plays out in the next Smash.
Miscellaneous
With all of that out of the way let me just point out a couple things I've noticed.
*Samus's down air attack has next to no landing lag.
*Bowser's forward air is far less laggy then it was in Brawl.
*Bowser's up smash has super armor
*Bowser's new side smash is significantly more powerful and can KO some characters at 50% with no charge.
*Villager's falling tree can KO light weights at 50%, probably much earlier if at the edge
*Heavy weight characters seem to take another 10% before being KO'd compared to Brawl
*Not sure if it's % based or just position based, but I've seen several Mega Man players Mega Upper and follow up with Air Shooter to get easy KOs around 80%
