Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Wii Fit Trainer

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[WritersBlah]

As I'm also a WFT main, I will contribute to this thread as well. It's hilarious how over in the Bowser boards, they say how good WFT's customs are, and yet there's absolutely no replies here. I guess I'll be the first.

Wii Fit's best default move is her UpB, as it's honestly the best recovery option she has, which she needs imo. Now, her other specials are a bit interesting. For instance, one of her custom DownBs makes her impossible to launch for a short period of time. This is a godsend against some characters (like Marth or Bowser) but really, and I mean REALLY awful for characters who have multi-jabs (like Fox, Falcon, or Villager) as you can get stuck indefinitely in their jab combo with no means of escape, watching your percentage rise up to an ungodly amount until you get sent flying once the effect wears off. But it would be helpful to have a few sets with this special placed in for matchups where it works.

I honestly haven't experimented too much with her custom headers, so I don't really feel like I can talk about them. There's a lot of techs that revolve around the default header though, so maybe the regular header is the best one...? I dunno.

Sun Salutation is another interesting one. I don't really see the point of concentrated SS, as it becomes a smaller projectile and doesn't heal, so I think it's pretty useless. Sweeping SS is interesting though, as anyone who gets caught by it gets major horizontal knockback, which can set up early kills for some characters (Little Mac immediately comes to mind).

So I'd definitely appreciate a moveset with 3113 as an option, personally.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I play a fair bit of WFT, and I really like her customs.

I'm not super well versed in her neutrals as I really like default here as a move a lot and find it very spammable. I believe the one that shrinks hits harder which could be really useful (the 1% healing isn't a very big deal); I'd have to toy with it more. The last variation doesn't even seem bad either, but it would be my lowest priority pick.

Header I don't terribly like as a move and always regret what I don't bring. Default covers the best angles, but the angles weighted header covers are very useful in their own right and weighted header hits stupid hard. The giant ball is really awkward but definitely has some kind of situational use just due to how big it is.

Up-2 is a ridiculous move; the hitboxes are just huge which gives it a very Mach Tornado (like the Brawl one) feel. It's a lot less safe than Mach Tornado was and is a worse recovery than default, but it's really, really good for sure. Default is a better recovery though so I still think it has merit.

The down versions seem like raw preference? I kinda think the exploding one might be best just for edgeguards; I usually prefer to charge neutral special instead of take a breath when I have a free moment, and that hitbox is really huge. I can see a lot of reason to pick the other two though.

I dunno how to put any of this together really... WFT is one of the harder characters to handle for sure.

 

[madworlder]

I know Wii Fit Bae uses the Sun Salutation that gets smaller as it's charged, I don't know if he uses any of the other customs. I haven't had an opportunity to play using the custom moves, although I'm interested in Weighted Header.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

@ madworlder u kno me so well lol

The sun salutations r all good. I prefer Enriched sun. Fully charged it does 20% and it's super fast. It's also really good for stage control since uncharged its huge. Sweeping SS is really useful for some matchups again characters with bad recoveries

Headers are interesting. The default is pretty good and U can play many edge games with it. It's also good for edge guarding. The huge one is good stage control and it's an active hit box and U can hit it at ur opponent. My favorite one is the weighted header. The ball is fairly strong and it can stop reckless approuches. I think it can stop characters trying to recovering from below. Also if u hit it and the headbutt it does 28%.

Her default super hoop goes pretty high and is good at gimping. I like jumbo hoops doe. It's like a brawl Mach tornado but it's less safe and has better reward. It can break a shield and does 20-30 damage which is a lot. Recovery wise, if u mash it. it goes as high as the default unmashed. Her jumps are already fairly high so I don't think I'll be that much of a problem. I think hoop hurricane is just bad doe. U cant angle it at all. It's not worth the vertical recovery.

For the breathings it depends on person. Deep breathing helps her get kills. When someone's at like 150% and I can't kill them. I use deep breathing and use uthrow and it usually K.Os them. It can help people that aren't good at getting kills. volatile breathing is good for edge guards. The hitbox on that is huge. It is also a decent kill option. Steady breathing is really handy. At around 100% she can't be killed so can throw around smash attacks since she has super armor. It can help her get the first kill. It's like a X factor

My preferred set is
Enriched Sun
Weighted Header
Jumbo hoops
Steady breathing

 

[SuaveChaser]

I use
Sweeping Sun Salutation It is slow but good.
Header(I don't like the others.)
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing.

 

[BJN39]

For Up B, I'd say the best overall option to use is the standard. It provides a steady recovery. It's pretty simple, not much to talk about, but, it does the job.
I will say @ Wii Fit Bae brought up some very intriguing points about herp derp mega hoops. At that point you just need to make sure you never need to recover from deep low. If you can manage that, then perhaps mega hoopsies is equally good, or even better. Really, it has more ONSTAGE uses, while standard is more for just recovery.

For Side B, I LOVE mega soccer ball. Its being out there is reallt fun for smacking at people. Its KB ain't too bad either really. My favorite part of it though is that it allows you more time WITHOUT a soccer ball, allowing you to have a better opportunity to use the head spike. I just love the head spike.
I bet most people will just end up picking standard though. Again, like fiery hoop dance's standard, it gets the job done just fine. Using an alt at this point is just if you want differing playstyles or uses for the move.

For down B, I am of the impression that Steady Breathing is just not worth it. You gain only 8 seconds of super KB resistance, BUT, you can only REALLY use it once a stock, because it has the incredibly longest recharge period. Even after 30 seconds, the circle will move quite slow,disallowing it to be used in any competitive level battle. Unless you can get them to star KO, LOL.

For neutral B, I think standard will once again be just fine and good. It may not KO super early with DB boosts, but it's large, fast, reduces an opponent's shield by nearly half if not perfect shielded, quick charge. While pushy pushy SS is just really sluggish, and I think not enough characters ahve THAT bad of a recovery to make it more useful for edgeguarding. That's just me, though. I don't know the ins and outs of Enriched SS, but I'm not in preference of it. I can't say much more about it, really.

I expect we'll see plenty of 1111. Most of the time the varation choices will end up being somewhat obscure since nearly all of her customs are equally viable (gj Sakurai) So... I suppose it'll just be popular vote among WFT mains. *shrug*

 

[Thinkaman]

I agree that WFT has overall the most viable and diverse customs of anyone. After exploration, I use only 1-2 sets on every character in the game but WFT. Some thoughts:

• Default Sun Salutation is better for short characters, who I have trouble hitting the Condensed version with.
• Condensed is otherwise better. It's stronger, and more useful to spam uncharged to stuff approaches. I also like it for Rosalina actually, since it either goes above Luma or one-shots it.
• Sweeping isn't bad, but isn't great either due to low damage and charge time. I only use it against Little Mac.

• Default Header is best in range-intensive matchups. It's kinda redundant with Sun Salutation, but doesn't require charge.
• Giant Header is actually kinda meh. The damage is poor, the projectile is slow, and the spatial control is way less in practice than at first glance. It threatens neither range nor rushdown. Hitting the ball into enemies with other moves is not actually a valuable option--the damage is pitiful.
• Weighted Header is great because it harshly threatens rushdown. You already have Sun Salutation to force them to approach, so Weighted Header is exactly what the doc ordered in most matchups. It's also the best edgeguard option, since WFT can easily cover all angles besides low.

• There is no reason to talk about recovery other than Jumbo Hoop. It is a Top-10-In-Game level god-tier move that single-handedly keeps WFT viable. Many poor matchups and bad stages for WFT are fixed by this move. (Unlike the rest of WFT's moveset, Jumbo Hoops LOOOVES slopes.)

• Deep Breathing is a really important part of her moveset. It increases her damage output and kill power significantly. The healing and aerial stall potential is nice too.
• Volatile Breathing I can't decide on. It's an absurdly good edgeguard, but it's only going to work on recoveries that don't have the freedom to air-dodge. (Or stall really hard)
• Steady Breathing I can't say I'm a believer in. It's too easy for most matchups to run away from, making it only a recovery aid... I haven't used it much, but haven't found it to be that useful.

In conclusion, my votes are:

• 2321
• 1321
• 2121
• 1121
• 2322
• 3322 (Anti-Little Mac)

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Actually I feel that steady breathing is the best. Since its 2-stock, the most important thing is getting the first kill. Steady breathing can help you by giving u super armor and letting U maintain ur stock and it might be hard for them to run since she's pretty fast and also she has pretty good projectiles. Also if u manage to get a pivot ftilt and kill them or a smash, you can camp with the projectiles and make the lead even bigger

 

[Shucklin]

Just a fun thing i figured out. If you have big header and jumbo hoops you can fire a header in the air and then if you immediately up b after the animation you can hit the ball with the hoops at a more horizontal angle. Might not be very useful but you wouldn't lose as much height as when you would SS -> up b

 

[AvariceX]

Copying my sentiments from the main thread:

I love the idea, but as a WFT main (if one can be called a main of anyone this early) I strongly disagree with his/her loadouts. Granted WFT has a ton of viable sets and it's impossible to get all of the good ones, but 2222 (which is in my opinion the best) is notably missing. It's only one character though and the empty slots are there for a reason, but....

2222, 3222, 2232, 2212, 2223, 2221, 2122, 2121

I main this character and these are basically the only sets I use (some people like heavy header [side-3] and I can see its merit but it's not my preferred side-b in any matchup), yet not one of them is in the critical/supplemental list.

I suppose this is partially my fault for not voting on the custom list, but I only became aware of the thread about 10 minutes ago. I had already posted my thoughts on WFT customs in the existing WFT custom thread prior http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-fit-trainer-custom-moves.369044/

I don't mind needing to setup my own customs since I've been playing with them for a while already and know my way around them, but if I as a main of a character have 8 sets that I consider critical and not one of them is present I just worry what that might mean for other characters. WFT is kind of a special case though since literally every one of her customs can be argued for (minus Hoop Hurricane and that's only because Jumbo Hoop is just too good).

Short version: my vote is
2222, 3222, 2232, 2212, 2223, 2221, 2122, 2121

 

[SAHunterMech]

• There is no reason to talk about recovery other than Jumbo Hoop. It is a Top-10-In-Game level god-tier move that single-handedly keeps WFT viable. Many poor matchups and bad stages for WFT are fixed by this move. (Unlike the rest of WFT's moveset, Jumbo Hoops LOOOVES slopes.)

Seriously, couldn't have said it better myself. This move is just INSANITY:

1. Purely horizontal recovery, Purely vertical, and things inbetween are possible; your choice.
2. A shield breaking, 30% dealing approach that people can't do much of anything against until it's done.

Right now I'm running 2322. Enriched salutation is better because the uncharged version is so disruptive due to its size.The healing factor on default is so slight, it's barely a tradeoff. Weighted header is more interesting for reasons already covered by Thinkaman, and I'm a firm believer in Volatile breathing for scare tactics. I just don't think the benefits of deep breathing are good enough for how vulnerable you make yourself.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I use Sweeping Sun, Header, Wind Hula Hoop, Volatile Breathing. I've been considering going to back to normal Down B

 

[Cha Cha San]

I like how with giant header, you can press side-B then immediately cancel with an air dodge so you have an extremely fast way to get a BIG obstacle directly in front of you that you can also hit however you want.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think you guys have been looking at steady breathing wrong. Use it during an edgeguard, the opponent can't run away, can't grab you, and any trades you make out there with your opponents back to the blastzone will be in your favor.

Imagine if you just removed the hitboxes of every upb in the game, that's what you have while edgeguarding. Mmm..

Of course, when edgeguards still aren't reliable, default is probably best.

 

[Beethro]

i havent gotten to experiment with customs much, but wft's are super fun to mess with

as far as sun salutation goes, as fantastic of a move it is, i do think enriched is useful more often from the few times i could use it. i like it more anyway. the viability of the uncharged shot is very persuasive. how is the shot cancellation priority whatever of the charged enriched vs charged regular? i have a friend who plays a lot of link and one thing i like doing is trucking through his projectiles with a charged regular shot, and if enriched charged can do that then ill feel better about committing to it. also how often does charged enriched miss short/knockdowned/teching characters? if enriched cant do all that then id def like to have the option for both salutations open.

sadly jumbohoops is the only custo i dont have yet and i only recently unlocked weighted header so i dont have much opinion on those but the opinion of this thread has me convinced that jumbo hoops is far and away the best. and if im takin enriched sunsalutation then i will always have a long-range-viable projectile on me so i will prolly start using the weighted header w/ enriched and regular or huge header with regular salutation i havent had enough testing with huge header though so depending on how that goes i might like it

with regular ss, regular deep breathing seems like the way to go, but again i recently unlocked the other 2 and havent been able to test them and you guys are making a good case for the fear factor of volatile breathing, and dunnobro brought up a good point for steady breathing. does it straight up make you immune to flinch and knockback? is it like a metal box? i have no idea what it does but if you can spike someone while theyre hitting you with their up-b, i think it deserves some more testing. i do think that steady breathing would be useful for going deep though, and if jumbo hoops reduces your recovery that much, then maybe a build w/ steady breathing would have regular hoops? (i havent tried hoop hurricane yet)

 

[Rakurai]

Steady Breathing basically just caps your knockback at an extremely low value.

You still flinch and can be grabbed, which makes it a lot less useful then it could've be.

As far as what custom build I'd use, I think 2232 would be my pick. I prefer Concentrated SS over the default due to its faster charge speed and horizontal launch trajectory, Heavy Header covers an angle WFT normally has trouble with, Giant Hoop is amazing for so many reasons, and Volatile Breathing is a solid edgeguarding tool, as the hitbox is large enough to deny someone the ledge even if it's used on-stage.

 

[⑨ball]

I started to bump this around the same time I did the official one. I suppose now's as good a time as any. We all should have gotten a good look at what type of competition awaits us in the future thanks to APEX and also I feel like we've grown as a community, getting to a closer rounded skill/knowledge average which should affect the type of general opinions we have about MUs and tools available.

In case anyone is unaware the official thread is here:

Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release


And WFT's sets are as follows:

Wii Fit Trainer

Spoiler: 2321

Enriched Sun
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoops
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 1321

Sun Salutation
Huge Header
Jumbo Hoops
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 2121

Enriched Sun
Header
Jumbo Hoops
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 3121

Sweeping Sun
Header
Jumbo Hoops
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 3322

Sweeping Sun
Huge Header
Jumbo Hoops
Volatile Breathing

Spoiler: 1121

Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoops
Deep Breathing

I think it's also important to do something we did not before as it was unavailable in the organized sense it is now and weigh our sets against the other listed sets and make sure we're never caught off guard and ineffective against any really good customs.

While I really like a lot of these sets, I think an over reliance on Jumbo Hoops may put us into some very bad positions in some matches where the rest of the set would certainly be applicable.

There's also not a lot of love for Steady Breathing and Volatile Breathing which might have more use now that we understand a bit more about what our options are. I haven't experimented with either as much as Deep Breathing, but I do know that VB is the closest thing we have to a spammable explosion. It's also the only one that can threaten an approach or landing trap using the Sliding Breathing tech.

 

[Rakurai]

There's also not a lot of love for Steady Breathing and Volatile Breathing which might have more use now that we understand a bit more about what our options are. I haven't experimented with either as much as Deep Breathing, but I do know that VB is the closest thing we have to a spammable explosion. It's also the only one that can threaten an approach or landing trap using the Sliding Breathing tech.

Does the Sliding Breathing trick still work?

I tried to do it in the Wii U version, but I couldn't seem to get it to happen, despite being able to do it consistently on the 3DS.

 

[⑨ball]

Does the Sliding Breathing trick still work?

I tried to do it in the Wii U version, but I couldn't seem to get it to happen, despite being able to do it consistently on the 3DS.

Yes. As far as we know there are no mechanic changes from 3DS to Wii U.

 

[GoddessBracelet20]

I haven't had a chance to really mess with customs yet, but I've enjoyed comboing into Big hoops and carrying people around. I like weighted header and jumbo hoops with deep breathing and enriched. I don't have much more to add at the moment, but i'll keep labbing until i find something cool to record.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The good news is that for the EVO sets we'll be able to fill out to 10 slots which for a character with such diverse, useful custom options as Wii Fit Trainer could prove really critical. We have until mid-March (let's say March 17) to sort all of this out. The good news is that, as far as I can tell (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong; everything as of now can be revised), the 6 sets currently in the project are pretty good; we just need to take 4 more, likely mostly focused on breathing variants if I understand the direction of the character, to round out her options.

 

[John12346]

I guess since I'm maining this character in a customs environment, I should throw in my two cents and the experience I've gained so far with her.

As far as Sun Salutations go, I'm pretty sure this entire board is fully aware that all three of them are very good moves in their own right and have their own situational uses varying by matchup and playstyle:
- The original is a very standard chargeable projectile, and is very good for punishes, most notably on landing.
- Enriched allows for options between excellent stage control and a ridiculously fast WTF projectile that hits like a truck out of nowhere.(My current personal favorite)
- And of course, Sweeping is great for those matchups where a hurtbox keeps getting in your way and neutralizing your offensive presence, most notably Rosalina, Olimar, Duck Hunt, and Villager.

For Hoops, this entire board seems to be in agreement that Jumbo Hoops are the only way to go. The other two aren't bad recoveries by any means, as the original is very reliable and very manueverble, and Hurricane just gets insane heights when recovering from below... but Jumbo Hoops simply outclasses the other two in recovery by enough of a degree that there's little reason not to use it. And then we need to remember that unlike the other Hoops, Jumbo Hoops is actually a move WFT can utilize in both the neutral game, as well as edgeguarding. In addition to being the superior recovery out of the three, it's also the only one to be such an incredibly versatile move.

This seems to be the extent to which everyone's unanimously agreed upon. All Salutations, and Jumbo Hoops on the table. Everything seem right so far?

 

[John12346]

With the obvious out of the way, I'm going to try to discuss my thoughts on Headers and Breathing now, and see if I can't come up with a good combination of sets that we can springboard from.

Headers:
We should be aware of the utility that the default Header provides. It's great for stuffing opponents trying to come out to edgeguard you, and it can be used to snipe people offstage for extra damage, and even a kill at times. There's not much to say about this one.

Huge Header can serve the same purposes, but you're trading off a lot of speed and potential damage for only a little extra reliability. It's nice that it stays out for a while, as it allows you to play around with it in creative ways during battle, but the fact that the rewards seem so minimal, and that you have to be careful to not let it eat your Salutation seems to indicate that it's not worth it in a lot of cases. Now, with all that said, it may actually be worthwhile to pair it up with a Sweeping Salutation set, as it can send the Huge Header flying all over the place in chaotic ways, and you get the benefit of the Sweeping Salutation not being eaten by the ball. We should look into this.

And Weighted Header... I don't think I really need to sing its praises, but it's a very versatile tool that allows more stage control in neutral, and allows for a dangerous, downwards angle projectile while edgeguarding. It's definitely a tool that should be paramount in a lot of sets, at least in my opinion.

Breathing:
Deep Breathing is really good, but I think we all know this. Healing 2(sometimes 1) damage, and having a significant power boost to all of her moves for 7-8 seconds can really come in handy, especially for a character like Wii Fit where killing doesn't come THAT easily.

Now, Volatile Breathing is something I wanted to touch on. Initially, I thought it would turn out to be a great move, allowing her to cover her landings and edgeguard more effectively, all the while still retaining that stall-airdodge facility that seems to be so useful with all variants of breathing. However, with the relatively small sweetspot hitbox, it being a lot weaker than I'd like it to be(both sweetspot and sourspot) and not even being active for very long, and that it can take a while to actually fire it off if you've been using it a lot for stall-airdodge purposes, it's usefulness outside of a really huge 8% 'get off me' hitbox seems really limited. Maybe I'm mistaken about the utilities this one can provide, but I really don't think Volatile Breathing has a place in Wii Fit's custom sets. It'll still always be a Top 5 hype move though.

Steady Breathing is an interesting beast. With 5% damage healed and becoming something like 2000x Bowser's weight for 5 seconds, I don't even know what to say about it honestly. The recharge time on it also isn't that bad, to be honest, allowing her to fire it off maybe two or three times a stock. There are specific matchups where Steady Breathing should not be used, as it puts her at risk of being put into a high damage lock. Of course, it's up to the discretion of the player to decide when it's time to use that kind of set. I'm also a little bit worried about using this one in sets that don't provide her with many specials that can kill(i.e. sets with Sweeping Salutation, Header, and Huge Header), as she's already quite limited in that department as it is.

Custom Sets:
With all of this in mind, here are the 10 sets that I believe would best support Wii Fit in an environment like EVO, organized by priority:

Spoiler: 2321

Enriched Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 1321

Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 2121

Enriched Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 1121

Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 3321

Sweeping Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 3121

Sweeping Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 2323

Enriched Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

Spoiler: 1323

Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

Spoiler: 2123

Enriched Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

Spoiler: 1123

Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

I'd like to hear the rest of this board's thoughts on this. I, personally believe that this is the best way to run Wii Fit's sets at EVO, and the only thing I could imagine that needs to be deliberated is whether or not Steady Breathing needs to be granted to a set with weaker specials. But are there any critical sets I may have overlooked? Do I have the completely wrong ideas regarding Huge Header and Volatile Breathing, and they're actually much better than I think they are? What do you guys think?

 

[⑨ball]

This seems to be the extent to which everyone's unanimously agreed upon. All Salutations, and Jumbo Hoops on the table. Everything seem right so far?

Pretty much. I'm still playing with default hoops to see if there are any MUs where it might be preferred, but as for now jumbo hoops just seem far too useful to pass up.

-snip-

I obviously agree with everything said here since beyond the opinion on WFT kill potential it's pretty much what I said in the original discussion thread.

Huge Header definitely lacks that offstage power default has, but gets an onstage space control default can't usually get without setup. I really like the fact that it's a hitbox opponents have to deal with as it can bop rolls, spotdodges, and bounce on top of someone's shield if positioned right. Combined with RTAC this can be a really powerful aid in MUs we want to play defensively or much heavier on zoning. It's also not terrible as an edgeguard as it functions as it falls slower than WFT which lets her bait out rising uairs to deal with it or airdodges, which is pretty much death above 80% if you punish with bair. There's certainly more to experiment with this custom.

Everyone has an idea that weighted header is good but I'm not sure if we're all on the same page as to how good. I could gush, but I plan on doing a video series so I'll save it for there.

Volatile had some really gimmicky stuff before the patch that was interesting, but it's gone now. At the very least I hoped it could do the impossible and pop Villager's balloons without hitting them, but alas. It might have some use in team battles however, as a low damage boost to a gimped teammate or some janky setup(like with G&W) but other than that it sits with Hurricane Hoops as "unexplored due to better options" for now. Maybe one day we can find someway to bypass the charge on breathings...

Steady definitely needs more research. I think the buff time is 8 seconds and 2 or 3 times a stock is fantastic. Especially against characters with kill throws and specific percent kill combos. I think this will end up shining as a kill setup over anything else. With so many powerful edgeguarding options at her disposal already, it could become an extremely powerful option with things she's already amazing at like taking advantage of the ledge vulnerability frame with header and hoops. It's also worth noting that this means on stage kill setups like nair>usmash carry a much smaller risk.

All in all I like the revisions here as taking out Volatile seems like the best choice for now. I'm a little worried about Jumbo Hoops on all sets, but we've got until mid-March to experiment and if nothing immediate changes our minds there's no reason to go otherwise.

 

[Macchiato]

With the obvious out of the way, I'm going to try to discuss my thoughts on Headers and Breathing now, and see if I can't come up with a good combination of sets that we can springboard from.

Headers:
We should be aware of the utility that the default Header provides. It's great for stuffing opponents trying to come out to edgeguard you, and it can be used to snipe people offstage for extra damage, and even a kill at times. There's not much to say about this one.

Huge Header can serve the same purposes, but you're trading off a lot of speed and potential damage for only a little extra reliability. It's nice that it stays out for a while, as it allows you to play around with it in creative ways during battle, but the fact that the rewards seem so minimal, and that you have to be careful to not let it eat your Salutation seems to indicate that it's not worth it in a lot of cases. Now, with all that said, it may actually be worthwhile to pair it up with a Sweeping Salutation set, as it can send the Huge Header flying all over the place in chaotic ways, and you get the benefit of the Sweeping Salutation not being eaten by the ball. We should look into this.

And Weighted Header... I don't think I really need to sing its praises, but it's a very versatile tool that allows more stage control in neutral, and allows for a dangerous, downwards angle projectile while edgeguarding. It's definitely a tool that should be paramount in a lot of sets, at least in my opinion.

Breathing:
Deep Breathing is really good, but I think we all know this. Healing 2(sometimes 1) damage, and having a significant power boost to all of her moves for 7-8 seconds can really come in handy, especially for a character like Wii Fit where killing doesn't come THAT easily.

Now, Volatile Breathing is something I wanted to touch on. Initially, I thought it would turn out to be a great move, allowing her to cover her landings and edgeguard more effectively, all the while still retaining that stall-airdodge facility that seems to be so useful with all variants of breathing. However, with the relatively small sweetspot hitbox, it being a lot weaker than I'd like it to be(both sweetspot and sourspot) and not even being active for very long, and that it can take a while to actually fire it off if you've been using it a lot for stall-airdodge purposes, it's usefulness outside of a really huge 8% 'get off me' hitbox seems really limited. Maybe I'm mistaken about the utilities this one can provide, but I really don't think Volatile Breathing has a place in Wii Fit's custom sets. It'll still always be a Top 5 hype move though.

Steady Breathing is an interesting beast. With 5% damage healed and becoming something like 2000x Bowser's weight for 5 seconds, I don't even know what to say about it honestly. The recharge time on it also isn't that bad, to be honest, allowing her to fire it off maybe two or three times a stock. There are specific matchups where Steady Breathing should not be used, as it puts her at risk of being put into a high damage lock. Of course, it's up to the discretion of the player to decide when it's time to use that kind of set. I'm also a little bit worried about using this one in sets that don't provide her with many specials that can kill(i.e. sets with Sweeping Salutation, Header, and Huge Header), as she's already quite limited in that department as it is.

Custom Sets:
With all of this in mind, here are the 10 sets that I believe would best support Wii Fit in an environment like EVO, organized by priority:

Spoiler: 2321

Enriched Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 1321

Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 2121

Enriched Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 1121

Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 3321

Sweeping Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 3121

Sweeping Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Deep Breathing

Spoiler: 2323

Enriched Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

Spoiler: 1323

Sun Salutation
Weighted Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

Spoiler: 2123

Enriched Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

Spoiler: 1123

Sun Salutation
Header
Jumbo Hoop
Steady Breathing

I'd like to hear the rest of this board's thoughts on this. I, personally believe that this is the best way to run Wii Fit's sets at EVO, and the only thing I could imagine that needs to be deliberated is whether or not Steady Breathing needs to be granted to a set with weaker specials. But are there any critical sets I may have overlooked? Do I have the completely wrong ideas regarding Huge Header and Volatile Breathing, and they're actually much better than I think they are? What do you guys think?

I think there should be at least 1 Volatile Breathing set, in some match-ups with linear and predictable recoveries, they can be easily gimped or get a kill.

 

[⑨ball]

I think there should be at least 1 Volatile Breathing set, in some match-ups with linear and predictable recoveries, they can be easily gimped or get a kill.

Even in the event that an opponent can't air dodge, due to it possibly putting them too low to recover or just having bad reaction time, it won't kill them in most cases and will only serve give them another opportunity at recovering.

WFT will always have a better option so there's no reason to waste your downB on gimmick specials. Not in competitive play anyway.

 

[John12346]

I would say you're better off trying to snipe lousy recoveries with Headers/Jumbo Hoops/Bair or what have you. Volatile COULD be used in specific situations against a recovering opponent but in most cases you have access to much faster and stronger punishes. My main gripes with the move are that it has a huge startup, isn't active for very long, and it's not even THAT strong when you hit with the sweetspot. Despite being one of the most hype moves in the game, it really has no business being used over the other two Breathings which have so much more utility.

Unless of course I'm overlooking something? Is there something about Volatile that's redeeming?

 

[We Are GX]

Ok finally found a thread I can have some input in. I've used my custom for two tourneys that allowed it and have performed really well. I use 3333. I love sweeping salutation, I love the vertical hoops. I like the steady breathing for the simple fact that i have time to get hit and punish with a smash attack. I use the breathing because it reminds of Shulk's smash+ shield minato. When the enemy is over a certain percent (usually 110%), i go in for the kill and it never fails.

 

[John12346]

Well, let's talk about Hoop Hurricane. When I first used Wii Fit, hoo boy I loved using that move as my recovery. It gets insane distance AND it nets stagespikes against people trying to intercept you. Real good stuff right there. Then I started tooling around with her other customs, and found Jumbo Hoops, and I just couldn't go back after how much stuff that move has going for it. You should give it a try before you go and call Hurricane the second coming like I did, because Jumbo Hoops is the third coming

Just in case, I'm gonna list off the benefits of both of the recoveries, so you know what you're looking for:

Hoop Hurricane
- Gets an insane amount of vertical distance. Seriously, this starts to tread into Balloon Trip levels of recovery distance.
- Has this interesting windbox that seems to throw people around if they try to intercept you.
- Hits multiple times and seems to be REALLY consistent at netting stagespikes against improper edgeguard techniques.

Jumbo Hoop
- Gets an insane amount of horizontal distance. This one can traverse the ENTIRE length of Final Destination. You also gain a pretty respectable amount of height with proper mashing; about half of the maximum height of Super Hoop.
- Serves as an incredible edgeguarding tool. By positioning yourself offstage near the edge and holding down so you don't automatically grab the edge you can essentially block it off against a large majority of recoveries.
- This one also nets stagespikes pretty easily if the opponent mistimes their edgeguard. With its superior horizontal mobility, you can veer away from edgeguards and move back in to punish. Think Brawl MK's Tornado.
- Can be used onstage as a defensive option out of shield, allowing you to combo your opponent for up to 25 damage or completely obliterating their shield if they get it up in time.

Try giving it a go. I wasn't a believer until I tried it out for myself. If you still think Hurricane is worth using I'm sure we can find a way to fit it in to a few sets. But a lot of people are convinced that Jumbo Hoops literally launch Wii Fit up a few tiers, so give it a bit of experimentation for yourself!

 

[Macchiato]

I'll try using Hurricane to find any hidden potential it has

 

[We Are GX]

Well, let's talk about Hoop Hurricane. When I first used Wii Fit, hoo boy I loved using that move as my recovery. It gets insane distance AND it nets stagespikes against people trying to intercept you. Real good stuff right there. Then I started tooling around with her other customs, and found Jumbo Hoops, and I just couldn't go back after how much stuff that move has going for it. You should give it a try before you go and call Hurricane the second coming like I did, because Jumbo Hoops is the third coming

Just in case, I'm gonna list off the benefits of both of the recoveries, so you know what you're looking for:

Hoop Hurricane
- Gets an insane amount of vertical distance. Seriously, this starts to tread into Balloon Trip levels of recovery distance.
- Has this interesting windbox that seems to throw people around if they try to intercept you.
- Hits multiple times and seems to be REALLY consistent at netting stagespikes against improper edgeguard techniques.

Jumbo Hoop
- Gets an insane amount of horizontal distance. This one can traverse the ENTIRE length of Final Destination. You also gain a pretty respectable amount of height with proper mashing; about half of the maximum height of Super Hoop.
- Serves as an incredible edgeguarding tool. By positioning yourself offstage near the edge and holding down so you don't automatically grab the edge you can essentially block it off against a large majority of recoveries.
- This one also nets stagespikes pretty easily if the opponent mistimes their edgeguard. With its superior horizontal mobility, you can veer away from edgeguards and move back in to punish. Think Brawl MK's Tornado.
- Can be used onstage as a defensive option out of shield, allowing you to combo your opponent for up to 25 damage or completely obliterating their shield if they get it up in time.

Try giving it a go. I wasn't a believer until I tried it out for myself. If you still think Hurricane is worth using I'm sure we can find a way to fit it in to a few sets. But a lot of people are convinced that Jumbo Hoops literally launch Wii Fit up a few tiers, so give it a bit of experimentation for yourself!

I will definitely give it a try. Anything to bump her up

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I rep Wii Fit Trainer in SoCal so I'll give some input

My favorite set is:
B- Sun Salutation.
Side B- Heavy Hitter
Up B- Jumbo Hoops(Duh a no brainier)
Down B- Steady breathing

I know some of yall will disagree but I love this set personally. I'll swap some out in certain match ups.

To me heavy hitter and jumbo hoops should always be mandatory for custom Wii Fit. Those 2 moves alone seriously patch up Wii Fits weaknesses.

Also one thing I noticed is many Wii Fit mains I've played in custom battles rely way too much on using custom moves only. For example they'll spam heavy hitter and super hoop a lot but have little knowledge on how to use the rest of his/her moveset(a moves).

To be good with the character. You gotta be good with the moveset and not rely on customs to win it for ya.

Also for yall. I've easily racked over 33%-50% with heavy hitter.

Use Side B over the foe when they least expect it or can get punished. The ball hits(should do 15%) and quickly fast fall into Nair(29%) and you can follow into another Nair and another and if your lucky into an up air to finish it off. So good and I've made many people salty over this 40%+ combo lol Thanks customs

 

[PUK]

I would say you're better off trying to snipe lousy recoveries with Headers/Jumbo Hoops/Bair or what have you. Volatile COULD be used in specific situations against a recovering opponent but in most cases you have access to much faster and stronger punishes. My main gripes with the move are that it has a huge startup, isn't active for very long, and it's not even THAT strong when you hit with the sweetspot. Despite being one of the most hype moves in the game, it really has no business being used over the other two Breathings which have so much more utility.

Unless of course I'm overlooking something? Is there something about Volatile that's redeeming?

It covers a big big area (more than half DF) and the sourspot is powerful enough to occurs a decent hitstun, making this move really versatile as ledge trap, ledge guard and anti juggle tool.
Also it can refresh other moves, and the cooldown is the shortest of all the Down B. And i believe there is more things unexplored.

 

[John12346]

I've tried using Volatile in ledge traps and edgeguarding, but the issue of all the invincibility from the edge and edge options, combined with Volatile not being active for very long makes it extraordinarily hard to hit with.

From my experience using the move, the only use I feel it really has is helping Wii Fit land against juggle-heavy characters, but she already does that really well via Header and Breathing stalls, as well as B-Reversed Salutations. Or just flat out veering way offstage to come back with Jumbo Hoop.

 

[PUK]

u use it to soon or to late. Maybe it's a little tricky. And i think there is more than 1 frame of activity.
Also i saw that huge header allows more easy spikes because of the weird trajectory. But the heavy one is definitively better

 

[John12346]

If we were to include Volatile Breathing, I could imagine replacing the last two sets on my proposed list; trading off the sets with Header and Steady Breathing for sets with more Weight Header and Volatile Breathing. But we need to confirm with 100% certainty that Volatile is worth using.

I would say, just on the merit on helping her land to a greater degree, it can be quite useful, but that's about it. I still don't see it as an effective edgeguard tool. I can understand how it may come in handy in those specific matchups, though.

If we were to trade off some sets like that, then Wii Fit's lineup would look like this:
2321
1321
2121
1121
3321
3121
2323
1323
2322
1322

Does that seem acceptable?

 

[PUK]

X321, X121, 1/2;322, 1/2;323 is what you said
I personally think that all set with mop salutation should include standard recovery, cause it makes spikes easy.
So 3311 and 3111. Normal header and UpB 2 don't work well because it's a little redondant.

 

[John12346]

I'm not too sure about how I feel about using any recovery that isn't Jumbo Hoop. I've had a lot of experience with both Super and Hurricane, and I definitely want to assert here that there's no reason to use either over Jumbo. Most of the Wii Fit boards have come to the same conclusion regarding that matter, to be sure.

And... as far as Sweeping Salutation or normal Header being paired with Jumbo Hoop, there are also easy to understand applications with these combinations. Sweeping, for when you hit with it, puts the opponent offstage low, and thus in a prime position to set up the Jumbo Hoop edgeguard. And normal Header can be used with a far off recovering opponent to force them into a lower position and once again, set up the Jumbo Hoop edgeguard. I'm not really understanding why we would want Super Hoop with these specials.

 

[PUK]

maybe i've got a false perception of JH vertical recovery

X321, X121, 1/2;322, 1/2;323 is what you said
I personally think that all set with mop salutation should include standard recovery, cause it makes spikes easy.

All your set are runing jumbo hoop, and as far as it's good, it's a little limiting. While sweeping S and JH work well together it s where super hoop is the least useless. Sweeping salutation being a niche move it will not strongly affect WFT players at EVO i think.

And when i said header and JH don't work well, i wanted to say header is not really good if you have JH: header in its standard uses is outclassed by JH. JH allows to approch and to avoid edge guard better than header do. JH is better for offstage gimp and most of the time heavy header will be a better option because it covers parts often used to recover.

Finally ESS and SS are pretty much interchangeable. So the sets 2322 and 2323 could leave a room for more set with steady breathing.
My list would be like that i think: X321, 3111,1322, 3322, 1323, 3311, 2121, 2122
I took most of your ideas but i tried to replace subpar by niche.
About the SS in place of ESS, it's because a big part of the cast could avoid a fully charged ESS when landing.