Official Stage Discussion

[GFooChombey]

I'm just going to be honest here. I've never liked this stage and don't think I ever will. I find it distracting and I generally don't like the dreary textures. I like when the stage turns some days and am infuriated by other days. I do like when the lights turn off for a few seconds and I'm glad you added a ledge to grab, but I haven't played on this stage in years.

 

[arcticfox8]

I love Frigate
It's pretty great
I'm good at this analysis thing

 

[Nefnoj]

Time to (finally) change the stage!

This week (or so), we'll be discussing Frigate Orpheon! This stage received several changes in 3.5, mainly:

- adding a right ledge to first transformation

- making the right platform no longer rise above the stage

- raising the center platform of second transformation

I love all the 3.5 changes to Frigate Orpheon! However, I feel like the flipping of the stage is still a bit... Clumsy, but I don't want it to be removed, whatever you do, don't remove it please! That would ruin what makes it unique! I think if one of the platforms remained stationary, while the whole stage flipped, that would be awesome, it would also supply for a bit of fun king-of-the-hill type action while the alarm rings. Said platform should be a different colour, so that it's a bit obvious that it's different from the others in terms of flippage.
I also think that it's a bit awkward that the Parasite Queen just sits there watching... If this was Metroid canon, she would be attacking the stage like crazy, so maybe she should be removed, replaced, crawl on the stage with collision, or should have the animation of her attention focused elsewhere. Her animation when the stage flips is also a bit awkward.

Generally, I would like a few aesthetic improvements to the stage. No clue what though, I'm no design expert. Maybe some props from Metroid Prime, in addition to animation fine-tuning.

Maybe you could change the stage to the crashed Frigate Orpheon, and make the whole thing take place underwater? As GFooChombey mentioned, it would make the textures less dreary and make it less distracting, all the while allowing you to take advantage of making it pretty. You could make the rotation signified by, not the alarm and the light, but by rumbling and shaking; longer, and giving the players more reaction time.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I think Orpheon could be a fantastic competitive stage, but it need a few tweaks.

First and foremost, remove the transformation. The second form doesn't add much - Halberd and Yoshi's Island already posses most of its elements. If anything, it detracts from the stage by diluting the unique first form. More importantly, the transition is incredibly problematic.
Sure, there's a warning, but even when it goes off I've no idea what's about to happen: the flip is just too unpredictable. There's no feasible strategy to respond to the siren mid-match and receive consistent results, which is totally unacceptable when those results could be the loss of an entire stock. Possibly multiple times per match.
What's more, it's not something a player can use advantageously. Sure, one can try to keep the opponent grounded, but they have no clue what will come of that, nor even a guarantee that it'll be worse than if they hadn't. All one can really do is hope, which is a fairly noncompetitive technique.
In short, it's a stage that intrudes upon the match, forcing a response of which there is no "right" answer yet for which failure is fatal, and which facilitates little player-player interaction or even player-stage interaction. It deeply touches upon many attributes that consign to bannage, and even brushes against polarization in how well characters can handle the flip. There's not even a canon justification for it; it's just some dumb idea Sakurai poured Metroid-paint over. Overall, it should be banned while it has the flip, but it should not have the flip.

So, for the first and only form:
Less frequent platform movement, so each elevation has a chance to show its stuff, pausing longer on the less questionable ones. Shift the left platform inward a bit, and perhaps shrink it. Maybe something to catch ledgedashes on the right platform, or even add a whole underside if sharking's a problem.

This last tweak is less definitive, but I still think beneficial. I think the platform rising above the floor should return, and in fact should be expanded upon. Observe:
[collapse="Proposed Positions"]
Simplified, but the ideas should be clear. I didn't care to illustrate the underside.

Current:

Additional:

I am especially intrigued by the possibilities the first two "Additional" present; in particular, if the first could even be tamed. (Perhaps if it existed only momentarily as the platform travels, rather than being a distinct position?) More could be done to make some of these less jank-prone if it's yet possible to change mid-match whether edges are hangable or platforms are fall-through.
[/collapse]
The fact that they are only temporary and effect only half of the stage should make what would otherwise be broken layouts manageable, and allow them to demonstrate their unique effects on strategy. Some may need to be nixed if they can't be comfortably available for any appreciable time, but we can't be sure without testing. And even with the platform's current positions the stage still presents a fair handful of interesting elements (I'd really like to see if its wall works out) and would be a welcome Counterpick, just not one living up to its potential imo.

 

[Nefnoj]

I think Orpheon could be a fantastic competitive stage, but it need a few tweaks.

First and foremost, remove the transformation.

Awww... Then it wouldn't be as unique... The mechanic of stage-flipping could be really fun, they just need to fine-tune a few things...
They should make an official addon pack; either one for competitive players, like yourself I'm assuming, with all hazards removed, or one for the casuals like me WHO CAN'T GET ENOUGH HAZARDS AND TRANSFORMATIONS!! BWAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!

'Cause we all know that Project M is superior to Brawl, regardless of if you're a casual or competitive (or some awkward in-between).

 

[Cubelarooso]

Part of my argument is that it would be more unique.
Regardless, it has been mentioned that the PMDT's coding wizards have been working on patching the Alternate Stage Loader (ASL) for PM,

Our coding wizards have been working on patching the Alternate Stage Loader (ASL) for PM.

See?​

so that could resolve such disputes (hopefully not to the effect of removing all "hazards," just noncompetitive elements).

 

[Nefnoj]

Regardless, it has been mentioned that the PMDT's coding wizards have been working on patching the Alternate Stage Loader

They have? That's awesome, and a significantly better option, I take back what I said entirely! THERE'S SO MUCH THEY CAN DO!!

Part of my argument is that it would be more unique.

And I guess I had trouble understanding the entirety of your post, I understand things visually more than otherwise.. Sorry about that... I primarily meant that the flipping is the most unique element, though with your changes, that's likely bound to change! And if they can make an Alternate Stage Loader, that doesn't matter at all! But I guess I'm no expert, hehe...

 

[Ningildo]

This stage is just dumb, tbh.

The flipping mechanic will ensures it will not see any competitive use because it's really goddamn intruding. I mean, you're in the middle of a combo and then a siren blares. Crude, now you have to drop it, even if you're about to land the ending blow, because else you risk reacting poorly to the flip and losing a stock. Even then, it's really hard to properly respond because of how disorienting the flip is, as others have mentioned.

I'd say remove the flip and allow give the moving platform at the side (the one that moves up and down) a ledge...somehow. Maybe make it a bit bigger as well. Do we have a large stage with close blastzones? If not, maybe this could fill that?

 

[GFooChombey]

After doing some casual thought on this stage and reading what other people have said, I had an idea.

So obviously this stage is built for casual play so any further tweaks for competition would be silly. Let's be honest.. we have so many legal stages that half of them aren't even used in most tournaments. Also our community, myself included, often forgets about casual play. The more stages we make "tournament legal" and "competitive" the less appeal the mod presents to casual players.
So keep the flipping and everything wonky, but just spice it up so it's not so stale. New textures, new platform paths, and new transformations. Let's keep Frigate Orpheon's intended purpose the same.

Edit: ..and on page 2!

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Here's my idea.

Spoiler

 

[Nefnoj]

Here's my idea.

Spoiler

And it looks pretty.

 

[Shokio]

I personally love this stage, but if anything can't be done about the flipping, it'll never see wide-spread use in competitive play. I also agree that the blastzones should be smaller. They seem too far out given the stage that you're on.

Unrelated, but I also feel like Norfair's platforms go too high. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't feel right having to double jump just to get onto the platforms.

 

[Cubelarooso]

A bit more detail on my propositions:

Spoiler: More than a bit

The basic formation. Should last the longest. The whole stage would probably need to be 25-30% wider to accommodate the smaller forms; thus it would vary between one of the biggest and one of the smallest. The left platform is cut off to align with the left ledge, since that's a less common configuration in stages. Some kind of gear should maybe be added to the corner of the main stage, to visually signify that it's not actually a ledge.

A chest high wall. Endemic to cover-based shooters. Shouldn't promote too much camping, since it's temporary, and it wouldn't be too dangerous to approach in most matchups. Rather, it should be considered a unique form of positioning requiring approaching from behind, rather than from the front. Would also add some corner- and wall-play.

A full wall. Similar to above. Still different and competitive enough to warrant another stop. The current and previous versions of the stage have already had these present, and I've never encountered much issue with them when I played there.

A lowered ledge. Majorly mixes recovery and edge-guarding up. On one hand, edge-guarding becomes harder, since the ledge option becomes more difficult and dangerous to cover. On the other hand, recovery becomes harder, as getting up from the ledge becomes restricted to somehow jumping on-stage. Ledge-camping shouldn't be too strong, thanks to the limited options and the fading invincibility. Regardless, this formation should probably last the shortest.

An elevated ledge. Ever-so-slightly different from normal. Makes a sweetspot a bit more sour, as more attacks can interrupt it. A non-drop-through platform just-above the ground adds a subtle dynamic when characters aren't on the same level, as well as minorly affecting things like autocancels, projectiles, and moving across the stage.

A second floor. Vertical sweetspots and ledge-play in general are completely upended. If one makes it to the ledge, having ground just below one's feet adds several new options, but also completely exposes one if they don't act invincibly. The small gap between platforms forces clever ways to quickly cross it, and the platform being non-drop-through adds a unique bottleneck that players might use the ledge to surmount. Too foreign to predict the outcome here, but if it turns out degenerate then the platform could be made drop-though or a ledge added to the main stage during this formation, if that's possible.

An extended ledge. Offers a midpoint (spacial and practical) between the the previous formation and normal. The ledge is still vulnerable, but not as much. A poor edgeguarder might still let the opponent slip under them. The low platform takes a page from FoD, allowing some characters to hide beneath it and others to hit below it.

Overall, I think these would allow a lot of variety in strategy, and hopefully not overly favor any one character. Each of these add something new and different to the game, which should be the point of having new and different stages. But none of it should be too disruptive of standard practices so long as the player is attentive, especially since it's all predictable and temporary.

 

[Strong Badam]

We have a Facebook group going with TOs from nearly every region made almost specifically for this, we're letting regions develop the game and mess around with the stages for a few months before we get together and see if we can agree on a ruleset
no promises but there's plans

I'm...
Not invited?

 

[Soft Serve]

O

I'm...
Not invited?

Idk, ask humble dojo
it's pretty dead for a group

 

[Tweezer Salad]

Always hated this level, terrible representation of Metroid Prime. Such wasted potential, as if they just played the first five minutes of the game and decided to convert it into a stage. Not only that, but it's really dark and bland, more so than in the actual game, besides the parasite queen there's really nothing to it.

So for me personally, there's not much anyone could do to make me want to go there. I guess get rid of the turning, cause it really throws your grove off, and maybe have the moving platforms on both sides to make it a little longer.

 

[Sandfall]

Always hated this level, terrible representation of Metroid Prime. Such wasted potential, as if they just played the first five minutes of the game and decided to convert it into a stage. Not only that, but it's really dark and bland, more so than in the actual game, besides the parasite queen there's really nothing to it.

My sentiments exactly. They could have chosen any other location in Metroid Prime and it would have been better. There are so many cool environments in the Metroid Prime Series (Phendrana Drifts <3 ), that FO really does feel like wasted potential.

 

[Tweezer Salad]

Maybe you could change the stage to the crashed Frigate Orpheon, and make the whole thing take place underwater? As GFooChombey mentioned, it would make the textures less dreary and make it less distracting, all the while allowing you to take advantage of making it pretty. You could make the rotation signified by, not the alarm and the light, but by rumbling and shaking; longer, and giving the players more reaction time.

You know, that's a really interesting idea, I like it. It would still technically be the same place, but more unique. I suppose the stage would be in an enclosed area, and the stage would be hovering over water? Kinda like a small cave where there's still surface.

Still though, It's a lot of work to do to stage thats hated by most, buy hey look at Hanenbow....

 

[MegaMissingno]

Part of my argument is that it would be more unique.
Regardless, it has been mentioned that the PMDT's coding wizards have been working on patching the Alternate Stage Loader (ASL) for PM,

See?​

so that could resolve such disputes (hopefully not to the effect of removing all "hazards," just noncompetitive elements).

Do we know what they're planning to use it for exactly? Or what limitations with the old ones made them not want to use it? I know you can't separate them in My Music and random select, but if it's only being used for alternate versions of the same stage then that shouldn't be an issue, should it?

Please please please based PMDT add a way to get 24/7 K.K. Slider on Smashville, I've been dying to have that for so long. And I think it'd be nice to have the old textures on the N64 stages - not that the remakes aren't beautiful, of course, it'd just be nice to have both if we can.

Oh, uh, anyway, Frigate Orpheon. Yeah. I like the layout, but the flipping is a total dealbreaker to me. Even if you made it more predictable I'd still just consider it a nuisance.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Just wanna add in an appeal for Texture Update/Change would be nice.
I wouldn't mind if it had new textures and calling it another stage even. (Elysia sounds perfect for the job, being that everything floats)

Spoiler

 

[InfinityCollision]

I like the dynamic stage design, but the flip is really jarring because of the way it forces you to stop what you're doing and get onstage. If it just dropped you over the other half of the stage in roughly the same position then maaaaaaybe it'd be okay? Dunno. Ideally a stage with fully transforming layouts should give both players an opportunity to create/press an advantage or reset from disadvantage, but Orpheon interrupts the flow of the fight without consistently allowing for those opportunities due to the way the flip manipulates your position.

Environment design does Prime no justice and the Parasite Queen's constant moaning is incredibly annoying. Would love to see a revamp here.

 

[Draco_The]

I don't like that stage at all. It's so... bland.

 

[Rᴏb]

scrap it for something new and better

 

[Nefnoj]

scrap it for something new and better

Brinstar Depths? Although not tournament friendly, I loved that stage.

 

[Rᴏb]

Brinstar Depths? Although not tournament friendly, I loved that stage.

Not my first choice, but I'd still take it over Frigate Orpheon.

 

[MegaMissingno]

When it comes to replacing Metroid stages, there was some discussion on reddit a little while ago suggesting swapping Brinstar for 64 Zebes. Similar thing with the acid, but I think it's better without the silly stage splitting thing Brinstar does, even casually that bit is stupid. And don't we all want to see more beautiful remastered 64 textures?

 

[Nefnoj]

When it comes to replacing Metroid stages, there was some discussion on reddit a little while ago suggesting swapping Brinstar for 64 Zebes. Similar thing with the acid, but I think it's better without the silly stage splitting thing Brinstar does, even casually that bit is stupid. And don't we all want to see more beautiful remastered 64 textures?

You don't like the splitting? I love it! Though I do think it would be cool if they did add some homage to Zebes in Brinstar via background aesthetics and that single platform on the right.

 

[Player -0]

64 Samus stage was the bomb. Cry everytime when you're link and fall to the lava though.

 

[GFooChombey]

You don't like the splitting? I love it! Though I do think it would be cool if they did add some homage to Zebes in Brinstar via background aesthetics and that single platform on the right.

A slight revamp to Brinstar. I could dig it.

Spoiler

But Metroid needs less lava representation in Smash.

 

[Nefnoj]

A slight revamp to Brinstar. I could dig it.

Spoiler

But Metroid needs less lava representation in Smash.

Chozo Ruins from Metroid Prime, I'd say is the most iconic Metroid level, it could be replaced with that. Though I don't know how they could do it

The second would probably be Tourian or one of the many crashed ships.
Frigate Crash Site plz

 

[Sandfall]

Not saying this is going to happen or anything, but would anyone be heartbroken if we replaced this stage with another Metroid Prime one sometime in the future? Or does it still have its fans?

 

[arcticfox8]

I like Frigate
But I'm not even that big of a Metroid fan
And I'd probably end up liking the replacement anyway

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I wouldn't mind a visual overall.It isn't iconic.
And on the stage's physical side,I'm sure you guys would think up something great too.
I certainly don't like the stage at the moment.

 

[GFooChombey]

Not saying this is going to happen or anything, but would anyone be heartbroken if we replaced this stage with another Metroid Prime one sometime in the future? Or does it still have its fans?

Not I.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I'd certainly appreciate a cosmetic change.
I think there's something fun and unexplored to be made out of the current stage, so I don't think a complete design overhaul is necessary. Even if the new stage has its own fun, unexplored elements, there are other, less redeemable stages it could replace. But, I don't like Orpheon the way it is now. So given the choice between current Orpheon and Door Number 2, the latter couldn't really be worse.

 

[Draco_The]

Not saying this is going to happen or anything, but would anyone be heartbroken if we replaced this stage with another Metroid Prime one sometime in the future? Or does it still have its fans?

 

[GFooChombey]

Spoiler

@ Sandfall Next stage when?

 

[Sandfall]

@ Sandfall Next stage when?

Now

This time we'll be talking about Hyrule Castle!

 

[Narpas_sword]

i enjoy Hyrule Temple, but it doesn't get a huge amount of play at my house. Probably because I'm the only one with ssb64 nostalgia.

It tends to get a bit gritty and campy. Visually it's fantastic.

Main issues are with the combo tent and the weird platforms.

Not saying this is going to happen or anything, but would anyone be heartbroken if we replaced this stage with another Metroid Prime one sometime in the future? Or does it still have its fans?

Replace it with something Phendrana-y.

I assembled a phendrana stage from a few parts of other stages and it was great.
Used a Summit stage as the base, got rid of Ice climber elements. added the platforms from Norfair, and put ridley in the background flying about every so often.

With Phendrana and Thardus music it was a quick favourite in our house for 1v1.
It's issue was that it had lag with 3 players, i never got around to refining it.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

About an hour ago I was thinking about how it would be neat if the tent and the wall to it's left weren't walltech-able, to really bring back what makes it a fun stage in 64 (although I'd understand if that weren't appealing to most other players). Lo and behold, I refresh the page and discussion is on Hyrule Castle. Must be some sort of sign, I say.