Official Stage Discussion

[Llama Juice]

Were there different stages of stage development? Like starting out with concept art, enhancing it, or whatnot?

For the HD remakes I basically treated the N64 stage as the base concept art, but then would search through the different Mario games and whatnot to draw inspiration on how the pieces would go together and how to stylize them taking pieces of what I liked and rebuilding it into something that fits together well. I've never been much of a 2D artist in the traditional sense, but I can model stuff pretty quick, so I can get a good concept out in 3D faster than if I were to do it traditionally.

Here is a gif of the production of Peach's Castle within Autodesk Maya (My 3D modeling software). You can see that it went through some pretty drastic changes before we ended up with the final version. Initially I was planning on putting Melee's Peach's Castle behind my stage and so I was styling the stage as if it needed to fit with that background. I needed to keep everything simple and low detail though so that the stage wouldn't lag with the entire Melee stage in the background. We then decided to scrap that idea and go with a more aesthetically pleasing castle. Since the stage is floating in the sky above the castle in the N64 stage I figured that I should draw some inspiration from the Tower of the red wing cap in Mario 64 for the type of background to use. I wanted the stage to be bright and colorful and happy so I went with the giant spotted hills from the Mario games to add some visual interest in the background.

There've been more updates to the stage since this Gif was created, but I figured this would give a good idea as to what goes on when creating these types of things.

Not pictured, all of the photoshop work to create all of those textures. Originally we were going to mostly reuse the Melee textures, but instead I went ahead and remade everything from scratch when we decided to switch castle designs.

Other things also got cut from the stage due to performance issues or technical issues. Here's one additional little guy who got cut from the stage. I wanted to have a few of this guy swooping through the background, but when adding him to the game it caused some pretty heavy lag, and due to file size limitations we were only able to have one sad little lonely guy in there anyhow, so he got cut out.

Anyhow, hope this was useful or interesting to you.

 

[GFooChombey]

This is awesome. Post more!

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

On the topic of HD remakes, I do think it would be nice for the Melee stages to be improved a bit. They wouldn't need a complete overhaul, like with the 64 stages, but they could use some improved textures and maybe a bit of smoothing out in some areas. One example I can think of is fixing the moon in Fourside so it doesn't look like someone just cut it out of a photo. Also, if Great Bay is brought back then It would be nice if the water looked better, as it was pretty ugly in Melee.

 

[flintconfirmed]

As the resident Great Bay expert, I stand by its integral structure as the unique fun party that it is. A retexture or slight revision could be an amazing addition. I am not opposed to a complete revision if it retains unique Termina flair, however.

 

[derpcube]

I would love it if they make fourside a tournament legal stage somehow, that stage looks awesome.

 

[_Chrome]

I would love it if they make fourside a tournament legal stage somehow, that stage looks awesome.

I would love it if they gave it a competitive version, like what they're doing with Green Hill Zone, Delfino Plaza, and more in 3.6. That would be really cool, because you're right: Fourside is one of the nicest looking stages!

EDIT: And one of my favourite stages too.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I would love it if they make fourside a tournament legal stage somehow, that stage looks awesome.

I don't want them to touch Fourside. I love it just the way it is, even if it isn't competitive. I wouldn't mind a competitive alt though. However, NPC is already an alt, so they'd have to figure out how to properly use the ASL so they can add another.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

In light of recent news regarding a certain character, I figured I'd leave this image here:

Wait, are you bringing back "THE KITTY!"?
The best part of casual fights on that stage was knocking people into the Chimera.

 

[Sandfall]

I don't want them to touch Fourside. I love it just the way it is, even if it isn't competitive. I wouldn't mind a competitive alt though. However, NPC is already an alt, so they'd have to figure out how to properly use the ASL so they can add another.

It's really easy to add another slot. However, we decided that more than one ASL slot per stage was somewhat messy and unprofessional. All stages will only have one alt for the foreseeable future.

Wait, are you bringing back "THE KITTY!"?
The best part of casual fights on that stage was knocking people into the Chimera.

Yes, the chimera is still there. It's also really good for SDI practice

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

It's really easy to add another slot. However, we decided that more than one ASL slot per stage was somewhat messy and unprofessional. All stages will only have one alt for the foreseeable future.


Yes, the chimera is still there. It's also really good for SDI practice

I get your point about adding too many stages as alternates. However, I don't think having a total of two alts would be bad. L+A would load alt one and R+A could be alt two. That seems pretty manageable, and not cluttered. Not all stages would need two either, just where it makes sense.

 

[Sandfall]

I get your point about adding too many stages as alternates. However, I don't think having a total of two alts would be bad. L+A would load alt one and R+A could be alt two. That seems pretty manageable, and not cluttered. Not all stages would need two either, just where it makes sense.

R switches the page. We don't want to assign two functions to one button (with stage striking and all), and there are no more buttons to use, really.

 

[MegaMissingno]

D-pad maybe? It is currently mapped to menu movement, but that's a redundancy that's okay to strip out.

 

[Xermo]

D-pad maybe? It is currently mapped to menu movement, but that's a redundancy that's okay to strip out.

Positive that would wipe wiimote users off the map.

We really don't need more alts. Adding more should befall on individual users; ASL isn't difficult to comprehend.

 

[himemiya]

I would love it if they make fourside a tournament legal stage somehow, that stage looks awesome.

Fourside is really a clone of saffron city so why not?

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Fourside is really a clone of saffron city so why not?

They have a similar setting, but the layouts are quite different. I wouldn't call it a clone

 

[flintconfirmed]

The one true Earthbound stage I'd love to see is what the Osohe Castle from the Melee development period would be. I'd prefer that to Fourside, why do Earthbound stages always get the wonky design? Well, I admit it certainly fits the series, ahaha.

 

[MegaMissingno]

There was an Osohe Castle planned for Melee? I know about Akaneia, but I've never heard that one before.

 

[chaoruge]

I 'now that this isn't the place for it, but couldn't find one that I could speak almost directly with the devs...

I wanted to ask if you couldn't make samus/zss and zelda/sheik totally apart without the switch places thing y'now, zelda turning in sheik with the down b, or samus into zss/zss into samus after the final smash just as SmashU/3ds

 

[CBO0tz]

There was an Osohe Castle planned for Melee? I know about Akaneia, but I've never heard that one before.

what's Akaneia? Is that a place in Earthbound?

 

[derpcube]

As a really big earthbound fan.

I can say no.

Its from fire emblem.

 

[CBO0tz]

As a really big earthbound fan.

I can say no.

Its from fire emblem.

Oh. I wonder what that stage would've looked like.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I get your point about adding too many stages as alternates. However, I don't think having a total of two alts would be bad. L+A would load alt one and R+A could be alt two. That seems pretty manageable, and not cluttered. Not all stages would need two either, just where it makes sense.

If a stage is good enough to be in the game it can just be on a third page once they get that code working. For all the reasons listed above.

 

[Sandfall]

There was an Osohe Castle planned for Melee? I know about Akaneia, but I've never heard that one before.

An image of Earthbound 64's Osohe Castle was used as the reflection texture for some trophies in Melee. It was probably just an easter egg the devs put there. I doubt it was actually planned to be a stage

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Osohe Castle would make a pretty awesome stage now that I think of it though.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Yes, the chimera is still there. It's also really good for SDI practice

Ahem! I mean, can't wait to chuck CPUs at it in Stamina mode.

 

[CBO0tz]

Okay, so knowing what Akaneia is, Castle Siege should definitely be re-made into the Kingdom of Akaneia, as homage to the cut Melee stage.

Osohe Castle would be a great stage too, it could be the Alt for Onett.

Another potential stage that would be really great to see come back from development
is the Bellsprout Tower from Gen II.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Okay, so knowing what Akaneia is, Castle Siege should definitely be re-made into the Kingdom of Akaneia, as homage to the cut Melee stage.

Osohe Castle would be a great stage too, it could be the Alt for Onett.

Another potential stage that would be really great to see come back from development
is the Bellsprout Tower from Gen II.

I guess they could make it an alt of Castle Siege, but what would it look like? I don't think there are actually any images of it.

Also, what's this I hear about Bellsprout Tower being a planned stage? That could be interesting, and I feel as if gen 2 should get some love (Pichu). Though I always wanted to see Goldenrod as a stage, as it's my favorite Pokemon city. Not sure what the layout would be though.

 

[CBO0tz]

I guess they could make it an alt of Castle Siege, but what would it look like? I don't think there are actually any images of it.

Also, what's this I hear about Bellsprout Tower being a planned stage? That could be interesting, and I feel as if gen 2 should get some love (Pichu). Though I always wanted to see Goldenrod as a stage, as it's my favorite Pokemon city. Not sure what the layout would be though.

There doesn't seem to be any images of it up-front.. But I bet if we look hard enough we could find some images of it in the background of a Marth ending cutscene picture.

And I would much rather it replace Castle Siege. Because it's actually based off of an important place in the FE universe, and not just a no-name castle under siege.

I also would rather it replace Siege so that it's official alt stage could be Dragon's Gate from Rekka no Ken, an FE game with Roy as a playable character. This was brought up a few pages back by @Leafeon , and I like the idea. Plus it's one of the only places in Fire Emblem games that has a picture of it.

I also want a good Ike game stage so each Swordsman has a 'home-stage' of sorts. Castle Crimea's courtyard was another good suggestion by Leafeon.

^ Reposting picture of Dragon's Gate for reference.

Apparently it was planned to be a stage in Melee, but was cut during development, that's all I know.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

There doesn't seem to be any images of it up-front.. But I bet if we look hard enough we could find some images of it in the background of a Marth ending cutscene picture.

And I would much rather it replace Castle Siege. Because it's actually based off of an important place in the FE universe, and not just a no-name castle under siege.

I also would rather it replace Siege so that it's official alt stage could be Dragon's Gate from Rekka no Ken, an FE game with Roy as a playable character. This was brought up a few pages back by @Leafeon , and I like the idea. Plus it's one of the only places in Fire Emblem games that has a picture of it.

I also want a good Ike game stage so each Swordsman has a 'home-stage' of sorts. Castle Crimea's courtyard was another good suggestion by Leafeon.

^ Reposting picture of Dragon's Gate for reference.

Apparently it was planned to be a stage in Melee, but was cut during development, that's all I know.

I like Castle Siege, even if it is just a generic castle. I just like playing on it. I feel like we shouldn't be cutting more stages, as it's not necessary anymore. They should just add stuff.

Also, I want to mention the possibility of having two alts for certain stages again. I know it was said that they didn't want to do R+A since R changes pages. However, do we really need R to change pages? It saves maybe a couple of second at most when compared to just clicking the button for the next page. I didn't even realize that you could change pages like that.

 

[GFooChombey]

Sprout Tower from Gen II.

Oddly enough, I happened to stumble upon this the other day and had the desire for the PMDT to do something, but maybe that time is long past...

Spoiler

Gen II needs more love in Smash though.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

It's really easy to add another slot. However, we decided that more than one ASL slot per stage was somewhat messy and unprofessional. All stages will only have one alt for the foreseeable future.

Wait, I had heard that the reason Melee Peach's Castle was getting cut was because you didn't have the codes to keep both versions of Castle 64 while also having Castle Melee.

Is Castle Melee just getting cut arbitrarily when it could be easily avoided?

 

[Sandfall]

Wait, I had heard that the reason Melee Peach's Castle was getting cut was because you didn't have the codes to keep both versions of Castle 64 while also having Castle Melee.

Is Castle Melee just getting cut arbitrarily when it could be easily avoided?

Peach's Castle is not being cut arbitrarily. Professionalism is a very valid concern. It was actually supposed to be gone in 3.5, but Bowser's Castle didn't get finished in time. Peach's Castle got cut because it's a half functioning port of a Melee stage whose hazards will most likely never be able to be recreated in Brawl/PM.

 

[GFooChombey]

Peach's Castle is not being cut arbitrarily. Professionalism is a very valid concern. It was actually supposed to be gone in 3.5, but Bowser's Castle didn't get finished in time. Peach's Castle got cut because it's a half functioning port of a Melee stage whose hazards will most likely never be able to be recreated in Brawl/PM.

I agree about the professionalism which is why I won't complain, but it seems many people enjoyed the stage layout. I think you're making the right choice for the present, but fans would love if you considered something for the layout.

 

[Comeback Kid]

While we are making suggestions, would you guys consider having one version of Castle Siege where the second walk off transformation is cut like it used to be and another where it is there? The new code makes that entirely possible.

I know the reasoning behind that originally was the game could use more casual stages, but now that we can have both a more balanced version of a stage that people like and another where anything goes, it would be a nice addition.

 

[MegaMissingno]

If not being able to include the hazards is why it's getting cut, what about Saffron?

 

[_Chrome]

If not being able to include the hazards is why it's getting cut, what about Saffron?

Saffron shall never be cut!!!!

I am not part of the PMDT.

 

[GFooChombey]

If not being able to include the hazards is why it's getting cut, what about Saffron?

Saffron has stuff going for it without the Pokemon. The castle seems a little empty.

Spoiler

Serious talk though, when are we going back to our regularly scheduled stage discussions?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Since Skyworld is continuing to be phased out of usage, apparently even being sent off to death the third row in 3.6, I've decided to illustrate my ideas to improve it

The layout is already pretty good, in my opinion.
​

Spoiler: Details

The destructible platform​

The main complaint I hear about the stage is that the top platform can be camped, so why not give characters the option to remove it? Trying to do so would leave them open, but then the opponent has to worry about breaking their own asset. Has a lot potential to become an interesting dynamic.

The monolith​

To give some extra flair. Floats by at varying elevations and in varying directions. Could be used to extend recoveries or edgeguards, and being knocked into it could be advantageous for either player, depending on whether it's successfully teched. Also occasionally flips, making it a scary place to hang out. (I actually didn't make a picture before because I wasn't sure if such a flip could work, but after some fiddling I've found a way to make it basically how I imagine.)

 

[skellitorman]

Since Skyworld is continuing to be phased out of usage, apparently even being sent off to death the third row in 3.6, I've decided to illustrate my ideas to improve it.

This has crossed my mind before, and so I also thought of a change that I think would make this stage function quite well as a counterpick:

Upon landing on a cloud, the cloud will disappear after 3 seconds, and reappear 10 seconds after disappearance.

It's been a long while since I have beaten Kid Icarus, but I know that there are NES games that have such a mechanic (clouds or platforms disappearing once you land on them). I think it would really work visually and gameplay wise.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

Saffron's Pokémon hazards aren't going to be recreated, I don't see Hyrule Castle's tornado coming back, Kongo Jungle 64 doesn't have the barrel, but why do all those stages get a pass while Melee Peach's Castle doesn't?