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Official Stage Discussion

Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
Location
Helsong's Carpeted Floor
Are there no plans to change the shy guys messing with some recoveries like Pikachu's and Luigi's? This change only affecting one character seems a bit odd. Even if you factor in that Ness only has Up-B to recover. Luigi's Side B getting stuffed is pretty big and it seems like this is favoritism on the part of the PMDT. Aside from that most characters seem to get help from shy guys while recovering, notably Wolf, Falcon, and a few others.
 
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Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,164
Location
AZ
Are there no plans to change the shy guys messing with some recoveries like Pikachu's and Luigi's? This change only affecting one character seems a bit odd. Even if you factor in that Ness only has Up-B to recover. Luigi's Side B getting stuffed is pretty big and it seems like this is favoritism on the part of the PMDT. Aside from that most characters seem to get help from shy guys while recovering, notably Wolf, Falcon, and a few others.
For clarification, wolf still has an animation after hitting side-b that he can't do anything out of for some frames, its not like lucario magic serice. If the opponent was trying to cover a high recovery option already, anything just hits wolf out of it. Its only really useful after going really deep off stage for a kill. Falcon gets side-bs, but if he is doing that that high up/early then he shouldn't need to do something that is so react-able.

Pika doesn't really need to be able to go through them, but I can see where luigi getting stuck on them can be really bad
 

Sandfall

Stage Designer
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
515
So the regular shy guys are still in the foreground and can give my Ivysaur some charge? Will the white shy guy do a fun dance before flying away? Are there any plans to make minor visual tweaks to other stages that have been adapted?
  1. The regular shy guys are still in the foreground.
  2. The white shy guy flies away just like the other shy guys.
  3. I can't talk about other stages at the moment
Are there no plans to change the shy guys messing with some recoveries like Pikachu's and Luigi's? This change only affecting one character seems a bit odd. Even if you factor in that Ness only has Up-B to recover. Luigi's Side B getting stuffed is pretty big and it seems like this is favoritism on the part of the PMDT. Aside from that most characters seem to get help from shy guys while recovering, notably Wolf, Falcon, and a few others.
The Ness change was character-specific since we don't have much control over the stage hazards. I actually tried removing the Shy Guys when I was making this version of the stage, but it turns out that it wasn't possible to do so (well, technically you can remove them, but then you have invisible hurtboxes flying around everywhere). I can't really speak about other characters, but I can assure you the Ness changes were not a result of favoritism.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
Are there no plans to change the shy guys messing with some recoveries like Pikachu's and Luigi's? This change only affecting one character seems a bit odd. Even if you factor in that Ness only has Up-B to recover. Luigi's Side B getting stuffed is pretty big and it seems like this is favoritism on the part of the PMDT. Aside from that most characters seem to get help from shy guys while recovering, notably Wolf, Falcon, and a few others.
It's not really possible to make them go through shy guys with those moves specifically, while still allowing them to be hittable otherwise.
 

Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
Location
Helsong's Carpeted Floor
  1. The regular shy guys are still in the foreground.
  2. The white shy guy flies away just like the other shy guys.
  3. I can't talk about other stages at the moment
The Ness change was character-specific since we don't have much control over the stage hazards. I actually tried removing the Shy Guys when I was making this version of the stage, but it turns out that it wasn't possible to do so (well, technically you can remove them, but then you have invisible hurtboxes flying around everywhere). I can't really speak about other characters, but I can assure you the Ness changes were not a result of favoritism.
Can you move then back on the Z-Axis a bunch? Just wondering for game mechanics.
 

Sandfall

Stage Designer
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
515
Can you move then back on the Z-Axis a bunch? Just wondering for game mechanics.
The white shy guys are already 50 points back on the Z-axis. I have no control over the positioning of the red shy guys. I can really only change their aesthetics.
 

Wolf_

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
242
Location
Rhode Island
If you just make yoshi's island flat and stop the platform from tilting, the shy guys won't even be a big deal
 

GFooChombey

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
595
NNID
GFooChombey
Next stage when?

Can I suggest changing the topic stage more frequently? I think most of our opinions have been expressed within the first few days.
 

Sandfall

Stage Designer
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
515
Sorry for the late update!

This week we'll be discussing Lylat Cruise! How about those ledges eh?

Also, it's been suggested that we do more than one stage per week. Is that something you guys would want to do?
 

_Ganondorf_

The Demon King
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
644
Location
'MURICA
NNID
GanonFist
Sorry for the late update!

This week we'll be discussing Lylat Cruise! How about those ledges eh?

Also, it's been suggested that we do more than one stage per week. Is that something you guys would want to do?
YES!
 

GFooChombey

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
595
NNID
GFooChombey
Lylat is significantly better since the twisting was removed, but it suffers from a similar issue to Melee Battlefield's ledges. Though I like the concept of low platforms, I wouldn't miss this stage if it was replaced entirely.

Edit:
@ Sandfall Sandfall I forgot to follow up about the fly guy dance question. Didn't they used to fly in a circle before taking off in Yoshi's Island/Story? That was what I was referring to, but I honestly can't find any footage to back that memory up.
 
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TheDuckChris

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 19, 2014
Messages
40
Location
Ontario, Canada
Allows for some interesting options off of platforms, such as using the middle platform to Side-b towards either ledge with wario. Edges are a bit annoying but becomes a good counterpick against spacies ironically.

Aesthetically one of my favourites, the background is just so wild and makes you feel like the battle is really an epic one.

Overall interesting unique layout that can be a fine counterpick in larger stagelists.
 

KiTsuNe_23

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
30
Location
Southern Utah
I don't mind this stage too much. I just don't play it cause a lot of people that I play with really dislike it for whatever reason. Probably the edges?
 

shapular

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
772
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Sorry for the late update!

This week we'll be discussing Lylat Cruise! How about those ledges eh?

Also, it's been suggested that we do more than one stage per week. Is that something you guys would want to do?
Same as Yoshi's Island, easy starter. The people that complain about the ledges should just learn to recover. It's not like Melee Battlefield; you grab the ledge when you're supposed to grab the ledge. I don't care for the tilting being taken out but I can understand why it was. And yes, we definitely need more than one stage a week, especially if you don't give us interesting stages to talk about.
 

Cubelarooso

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
1,614
Location
[Hide my Location]
Lylat's pretty lame. It's too defined by the ledges; that's pretty much all I think about when banning or CPing it. It's symmetric, which is bad, and is even worse than usual since that just doubles the ledges' importance. Though they sometimes seem glitchy with ledgedashing, I don't think it's a problem that they require extra precision to sweetspot (just changing them would actually make the stage even more pointless); the problem is how centralizing they are when deciding whether to go there. Overall, one of the worst stages, IMO.
Can't think of much to make it more than Lips the Stage. Just to implement independent movement (rotation, expansion, extrusion, even removal from the plane of plat) of stage parts (each platform, the "wings", the thrusters, or subdivisions of these) in time with the background action. In particular, a wing's bottom could occasionally move downward to give recoveries more leeway on that side. Not sure things could move in a way that's meaningful without being intrusive, though. The background would probably need to be slower, at least.


I don't get too much time to work out my thoughts, so I dunno about more than one a week.
 
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Prince Longstrok

Taker of lives, defiler of daughters.
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
648
Location
Toledo, OH
Personally, Lylat is a very scary stage to play on, for me at least.

As stated before, when you think of Lylat you think "Oh god, be careful around these edges. That, and the low platform heights make it a very...odd stage to play on. Maybe if it only had 2 platforms, so it didnt seem soo..crowded? I dont really know though :\
 

TheGravyTrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 5, 2014
Messages
866
Location
Ferndale, WA
NNID
Theboyingreen
I personally really like this stage. I fully support stages that variety in regards to plat layout. There are too many tri plat stages, so I really like the way it currently is. Fix the ledges, maybe do something with blastzones (I don't actually know much about blastzones, but if they are too similar to ps2/smashville, maybe some changes so they aren't all wide stages with generic blastzones).

Can I make a suggestion for a stage to discuss soon? Rumble falls is a stage that I would like to talk about, particularly the plat layout. Either make this stage "better" (whatever that is) so more people consider it or move its layout to a more reasonable stage, cuz I think the inverted layout is really interesting.
 

CBO0tz

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Messages
1,055
Location
Yoshi's Island
People are saying to fix the ledges of Lylat and that's it, but just for the hell of it, what if we removed the platforms on it? the stadium's only difference from Battlefield at the moment is the ledges. I'd be curious to see how the map would play if it was like a miniature battlefield.
 

Sandfall

Stage Designer
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
515
@ Sandfall Sandfall I forgot to follow up about the fly guy dance question. Didn't they used to fly in a circle before taking off in Yoshi's Island/Story? That was what I was referring to, but I honestly can't find any footage to back that memory up.
The fly guys spin around and fly off if you hit them (maybe that's what you were thinking of?). The white ones just fly off into the sky.

And yes, we definitely need more than one stage a week, especially if you don't give us interesting stages to talk about.
Most of the interesting stages aren't tournament legal :p
 
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Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,164
Location
AZ
The stage is perfect
Dont fix the ledges, people should just get good.
Maybe make the stage shorter or something if you want a change, but its perfect stage-wise
I have no idea what the blastzones are like relative to other stages though.
 

Kati

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
1,471
Just do something like this:




Tiny enough that aiming is still required, large enough that brushing a pixel doesn't bring one to a halt.
 

Leafeon

Verdant Pokémon
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
1,283
Location
Someplace in the woods
Just do something like this:




Tiny enough that aiming is still required, large enough that brushing a pixel doesn't bring one to a halt.
I like Lylat as-is platform wise, and I don't care if the edges are changed either way. I don't really have too many issues with it, the only excuse I have when I hit the bottom of the stage was "I'm bad, should have sweetspotted." That aside, I'm not sure how it works on people with teleportation recoveries (Shiek, Zelda, Mewtwo), but I'm sure you'd change it if it really needed to be changed. People say it's like battlefield or whatever with the tri-plat layout, but I think it plays differently because of the low middle platform. Supports juggle characters a lot and gives characters with bad or no projectiles room to work around opponent projectiles, without being too high to just not have to interact or dodge.
 

Blitzus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
195
Location
Flower Mound, Texas (DFW)
3DS FC
4253-3622-3146
I love this stage for Lucario.

The part of the main part of the stage that is raised higher.. I think it's a thruster?
Anyway, that part of the stage lets me use my up smash so I can get to a platform and continue a combo.

I would prefer if there were Randall-esque platforms that appeared underneath the stage... maybe arwings and wolfens. It would give the stage a more exciting tournament feel. After all, people go to yoshi's melee because of Randall and the crazy thingd you can do with him.
 
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Empyrean

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
2,604
Location
Hive Temple
NNID
Arnprior
I'm personally fine with the ledges.
Although the stage layout makes it so I'm only ever comfortable picking Lylat with a few chars, namely Zard and Samus. Great counterpick.

Also didn't one of the blogposts already address the ledge issue?
 

Foo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
1,207
Location
Commentatorland
I think the issue with the ledges is the curve of the stage. Make the stage flat, move the platforms to compensate (so they are just as far off the gound) and you'll have a good counterpick. However, I cannot express how much I hate this stage and, more importantly, how much it hate players. You'd think I'd be safe because I play a tether character, but NOPE.

LYLAT SAYS NO ONE IS SAFE MWUAHAHAHAHHAHA

Occasionally when I tether on to stage, I'll bump my head on the stage as I reel up and fall to my death in helpless. That and trying to ledge hop/dash can occasionally put you under the stage for no clear reason. I know I'm not hitting side before jump, because I ledge hop with tap jump. (Don't judge me)
 

shapular

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
772
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Most of the interesting stages aren't tournament legal :p
Tournament legal stages aren't worth discussing since everybody agrees they're good already. But on that note, like half the stages that are currently banned in most rulesets should be legal. There are at least 25 or so good competitive stages in the game and some people decided we should cut it down to 10-14 because we don't like variety or something. I don't get it.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
2423-5382-7542
Can we tone down the background? Just a cool outter space scene would be great.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
I personally don't think a match should be determined by a stage gimp. Recovering should be you trying to outplay your opponent and successfully get back to stage, not praying that Lylat won't cheese you.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
I like Lylat BECAUSE of the ledges. On many stages, you can easily cheese your opponent by aiming for the wall, which allows you to sweetspot from a much, much larger amount of spots. Lylat requires you to make the decision between sweetspotting and overshooting before you press the upB button, as it should be.


yes I main Ivysaur why is that relevant ?
 

GFooChombey

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
595
NNID
GFooChombey
I like Lylat BECAUSE of the ledges. On many stages, you can easily cheese your opponent by aiming for the wall, which allows you to sweetspot from a much, much larger amount of spots. Lylat requires you to make the decision between sweetspotting and overshooting before you press the upB button, as it should be.


yes I main Ivysaur why is that relevant ?
Honestly, I had never thought of it from that perspective. Suddenly I understand!
 

Kati

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
1,471
Can we tone down the background? Just a cool outter space scene would be great.
Yes the background is pretty bad. It's distracting to many players, and for me personally, has become very stale. The fights are all looped and so are easily memorized after a few hundred matches... I swear the arwings blow up an invisible asteroid.

Syvkal's calm lylat cruise on brawlvault is much more enjoyable.

My proposed collision changes would still retain the pressure that lylat's ledges exert... just not to same degree. It's frustrating playing against people only to see them sd because ledgehops or tethers get shanked out of the blue.

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?ByUserID=33879&Moderated=All
 
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