Official Stage Discussion

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I think that PS2 kind of makes PS1 obsolete in a tournament stagelist. After all, characters that are good on PS2 are also good on PS1, so they get an additional and almost identical counterpick option unless PS1 is banned. Plus, the Melee Rock and Fire transformations are super janky, so it's not surprising that the stage is generally banned now. PS1 is still a very good stage, obviously. It's just that there are plenty of other excellent stages that add more diversity to a stagelist.

That being said, I really love the improved version of PS1 that you made a while back, Sandfall, especially the Ground transformation and the Lightning transformation. I hope this version is implemented in 3.5, and I think the infinitely better transformations might make people want to unban the stage. However, I still would be concerned about the balance issues of including both PS2 and PS1 in a tournament stagelist since they are so similar (and since TOs seem to be using smaller stagelists now.)

I personally have no problem with transforming stages as long as they don't contain hazards. Dracula's Castle and the new 3.5 version of Norfair are some of my favorite stages and I wish they were used more, but I think I'm in the minority on that one. I do think that PM could benefit from the variety of having one or two transforming stages that were actually really popular and widely-used in tournament.

 

[GFooChombey]

I love PS1's edges. I can do some fun Ivysaur stuff with them.

 

[TreK]

I think that the PM stage list does need a transforming stage, for the sake of variety but that PS1 does a terrible job at it because of the fire and rock transformations. I suggest taking inspirations from the various mods that give it new transformations or alter the existing ones so that they are more in line with the type of gameplay you are trying to encourage in PM.

I had this idea in the back of my head, I might as well share it : since PS1 and PS2 have the same layout when PS1 is not transformed, it would make it a bit redundant. So I figured, you could make PS1 always be in a transformed state, and never go back to the neutral state. Just an idea.

 

[Strong Badam]

PS1 is cancer.

 

[Player -0]

I like transforming stages, they're just really cool. One of the main problems is that the rock and fire transformations stop play and promote camping. Also I saw that Teneban suggested it never go back into the regular stage. Thinking about that I think it's a pretty cool idea, you could start it as usual but once it transforms it never goes back into the regular stage or so it doesn't always have to go to the regular stage.

Random idea time:
- Keep the ideas of fire and rock so you can combo with them like crazy. Just make the combo areas much more accessible so you can get into them. Some ideas would be to move the rock pillar towards the middle of the stage more and cut down the pillar to half of the current height. Make the "combo area" (the pit) bigger a tiny bit. Change the tree possibly so it's bigger on the left. Another random thing would be to make it so the bottom part of the tree is in the background and then the upper part (including a bit of the wall) is playable on.

- Make it so the water part doesn't go EVERYWHERE for grass transformation. Maybe change the ground a bit so it's not slope-y on the whole stage but more like Skyloft's stairs so it goes downwards a bit on certain parts, if you want to keep it at all.

- Fix the ledges so they ain't so jank?

- I liked the windmill in the water transformation, I'd like to see it come back like it was in melee.

- During the transformations there's a part next to the ledge where you walk upwards to be next to it. I'm not sure if that needs to be changed or not, it's a bit weird currently.


Listing some of the limitations might be a good idea.

 

[Empyrean]

I love transforming stages, insofar as the transformations are smooth and natural. If not, then they essentially work as hazards and disrupt the flow of the match.

Thankfully PS1 has smooth transitions (except for camera issues). The transformations themselves however are horrendous. I wouldn't be angry at all if your custom PS1 replaced all the other transforms, tbh.

 

[skellitorman]

I don't think that stage transformations should be allowed for competitive play. I dislike the idea of playing correctly and positioning myself in an advantageous position with my character, but then suddenly losing that advantage because the stage decided to change instantly.

 

[Exodo]

But removing the slope for those stages takes away what makes them unique. They won't bring anything to the table without them.

I also agree with that 100% but people always complain about that detail so yhat would be a solution for both stages

 

[Exodo]

N

I think that PS2 kind of makes PS1 obsolete in a tournament stagelist. After all, characters that are good on PS2 are also good on PS1, so they get an additional and almost identical counterpick option unless PS1 is banned. Plus, the Melee Rock and Fire transformations are super janky, so it's not surprising that the stage is generally banned now. PS1 is still a very good stage, obviously. It's just that there are plenty of other excellent stages that add more diversity to a stagelist.

That being said, I really love the improved version of PS1 that you made a while back, Sandfall, especially the Ground transformation and the Lightning transformation. I hope this version is implemented in 3.5, and I think the infinitely better transformations might make people want to unban the stage. However, I still would be concerned about the balance issues of including both PS2 and PS1 in a tournament stagelist since they are so similar (and since TOs seem to be using smaller stagelists now.)

I personally have no problem with transforming stages as long as they don't contain hazards. Dracula's Castle and the new 3.5 version of Norfair are some of my favorite stages and I wish they were used more, but I think I'm in the minority on that one. I do think that PM could benefit from the variety of having one or two transforming stages that were actually really popular and widely-used in tournament.

no stage adds more diversity than PS1! Tell me another stage that can transform in 4 different stages mid battle, that is diversity and uniqueness of PS1, though the fire and ground stage could use some tweaks

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Not a fan of transformations, they interfere with the flow of the game. For competition's sake, stages only really need variety between platform layout (stationary or moving), stage wall length, stage size and width, platform size and width and blastzones to be interesting.

Dracula's castle honestly has the best sort of 'transforming stage' concept with its dynamic and changing platform layouts. More stuff like that would be cool. Maybe cosmetic changes to PS1 that ultimately just result in variable platform loadouts.

 

[Soft Serve]

I hate ps1 a lot, I don't even think it should be legal in melee tbh. The trasformations are just too jarring and disrupt the current state of the match, shifting momentum by normally completely halting the action of the game in rock or fire trasformations. Getting stuck on the platforms that are in the ground still is also salt enducing.
I'm fine with trasformations on stages as long as it's reasonable and predictable. I actually like castle seige other than the transition itself. Stadium does the transitions perfectly, just half the transformations are actually cancer.

And bring back mushroom kingdom II, based pmdt.

 

[Matasd]

On the one hand I love the concept of transforming stages, it adds a lot of variety to the game play of the stage. However it seems like a hard task to make a transforming stadium balanced, considering in ps 1 there are several transformations that often result in a momentary pause of game play. I feel like if done right transforming stages would add to the game and the stages themselves would be a lot of fun to play on.

 

[G13_Flux]

I think that PS2 kind of makes PS1 obsolete in a tournament stagelist. After all, characters that are good on PS2 are also good on PS1, so they get an additional and almost identical counterpick option unless PS1 is banned. Plus, the Melee Rock and Fire transformations are super janky, so it's not surprising that the stage is generally banned now. PS1 is still a very good stage, obviously. It's just that there are plenty of other excellent stages that add more diversity to a stagelist.

not necessarily true. a character can like ps2 and not like ps1 in certain MUs. the stage transformations can be quite detrimental to some projectile based charactes since they often restrict flat and even terrain to smaller potions of the stage, and create walls that characters can tech off of, changing how beneficial it is to have a vertical kill move versus a horizontal one.

all in all i think with the increased diversity of PM, transforming stages are great. Im really not a fan of castle siege since there is almost too much variation between the transformations, and how the actual transforming phase can save/kill characters off the stage. overall it just acts really weird and i dont think the transformations are really encouraging to competitive play.

but i think the stages with moving platforms (FoD, Norfair, dracs castle) are a good addition, since it forces players to adapt on the spot, although in a more micro-positional kind of way. if other transforming stages were created that kept a constant base (ie, no transforms that contain an indefinite horizontal floor in one, then weird sloped edges in the next, then ledges that have walls below them in another like castle siege does.), i would be all for it.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Maybe the base platform layout could be one static platform in the middle and one on each side half above the ledge and half above the stage. Then make it so it doesn't zoom out when it transforms and add two versions of the stage: one with transformations and one without that is accessed by holding L as you select the stage. The trans are:

Water: Ground speed is higher and crouch cancelling is more effective, basic illuminati platform formation

Fire: Attacks deal more damage, only the middle platform

Earth: Attacks deal more knockback and hitstun, two extra platforms above the midpoin between the middle platform and each side platform

Air: Short Hops are shorter full jumps and double jumps are higher, no platforms.

 

[GFooChombey]

Before we get to a new stage, I'm going to add that I love transforming stages. It's such a minor detail that keeps each match fresh, especially when two projectile characters go head to head. Keeps spectators entertained and makes the players show their adaptability.

That said, the transformations can't have something that causes the players to "fight the stage" for it to be a viable stage.

 

[Player -0]

I think having stages that during the transformations change the attributes of moves would be incredibly hard to code and be extremely bad. #Yoshijustkeepsgoingup

 

[Sandfall]

Thanks for the feedback on PS1. We'll take it into consideration if we ever decide to revamp it or make any more transforming stages!

The next stage that we would like to discuss is Skyworld!

While this stage hasn't really been considered for a revamp, we'd still like to know how everyone feels about it. Are there some tweaks that you'd make? Or do you like it just the way it is?

 

[TreK]

I would simply make the platforms thinner so that the visual and the platform's collision box match better, without necessarily losing the fluffiness of it.

Other than that I really don't get the hate I often see for this stage. I like it very much.

 

[Soft Serve]

I really love the stage, although I normally ban it. The platform layout is interesting, at roughly dreamland hights, big center one and two side ones hanging over the ledge.
if I could change anything, I'll just shrink the whole stage down by like 5 to 10%, blastzones included, and make the main stage walls just a little bit longer so getting caught underneath them isn't so easy (normally I wouldn't say this, I like lylats bad ledges, but I'd personally like it to be walled like dreamland is, but not quite as long.)
it's a really good stage, but right now it competes with dreamland, draculas, distant planet, and even fod as bigger stages.

 

[GFooChombey]

The stage is great and works well as a Dream Land...if we didn't already have Dream Land. It's lacking something to set it apart from the other stages. I wouldn't mind bringing back the slant on one side of the main platform and/or the platform that appears at the bottom sometimes, just with a set time and not as frequently as it did in Brawl. It'd be the next Randall.

I know people won't like that opinion, but since it's hardly used in tournament, what's the worst that can happen?

 

[CBO0tz]

I like the above suggestion, it would definitely be better to make it more unique than the Battlefield setup.

Yoshi's Story-style maps are a pretty small commodity that the PMDT needs to give us more of.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'd say shrink the size of it. Lil' too big imo because everyone likes Dreamland. Make it somewhat smaller and its fine tbh

 

[TreK]

I don't like Dreamland. The wind makes the camera freak out and it hurts my eyes.

 

[Rᴏb]

It's too hard to tell when I'm going to land on a platform. Make them normal or thinner as someone already suggested.

I enjoy the layout of the stage, but it is sooooo boring to look at. I think it is by far the blandest looking stage apart from PS2 and Battlefield, it'd be nice if the art team could do something to it to make it interesting to look at.

 

[Blitzus]

As a Lucario main, I really benefit from the platform layout of Skyworld, but the only real complaint I have is the platforms themselves.
The shape of the clouds makes it really ambiguous whether or not you will land on the platforms. This is concerning to me, because it makes me pray my mid air throw spike will miss the platform.
I would also like Dark Pit/Dark Pit's theme to the music menu and maybe even the Lightning Battle.

Finally, as this is just a matter of preference, but I would tilt the ledge down like Yoshi's Brawl, but not to the degree of Yoshi's.

Hope I helped!

 

[-Se7en-]

For Skyworld it would be nice to see the horizontal blast zones closer but that's just me. The clouds throw me off sometimes when I try to wave land but that's probably my own problem.

Skyloft is really cool. I like it as it is.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Skyworld is an invaluable stage because it's one of the only big stages that is actually a good counterpick for floaties. It should be included in every stagelist.

It definitely should not be made smaller. There are plenty of small and medium 3-platform stages, and shrinking Skyworld would just be a waste, especially since floaties generally get the short end of the stick in terms of favorable stages to choose from.

EDIT:

I wouldn't mind bringing back the slant on one side of the main platform and/or the platform that appears at the bottom sometimes, just with a set time and not as frequently as it did in Brawl. It'd be the next Randall.

Yoshi's Story-style maps are a pretty small commodity that the PMDT needs to give us more of.

Yoshi's Story is my favorite stage ever, and part of why I love it so goddamn much is because of the occasional chaos caused by Randall. I really wish that more stages had very subtle elements like Randall that slightly alter the battle every now and then on an otherwise neutral stage. I personally would love it if Skyworld, for example, had something like this.

 

[Leafeon]

I only ban it because it's bad for my character. If I were to play, I want to maybe say Zelda, I would go to it much more often. I like the stage as it is, but I'd like maybe an outlined part for the cloud-platforms, without changing their size or anything, just to make the actual platform visible... But I'm just bad with it because I don't bring myself to play here often.

 

[shapular]

I think Skyworld is great, but it's hard to tell exactly where the cloud platforms begin and end. That's the only problem I have with it. I think it should be a neutral over Dreamland 64 (speaking of which, please take out the wind).

I'm a bit late to the PS1 discussion, but I think Pictochat is a better PS1 and I don't know why it's not legal.

I also have a general comment about stages in PM. I think you guys should either come up with a recommended stagelist so people will actually use the good stages you've given us (instead of trimming down to 10 stages just because), or give up trying to make every stage competitive and just give us the fun versions of stages back and maybe new fun stages. I love the addition of Hyrule Castle and Saffron City, but if nobody's using new Distant Planet or Norfair as legal stages I'd rather have the original versions of those back.

 

[Empyrean]

Only thing I would probably change on Skyworld is raise the lower blastzone a bit. Otherwise everything is fine.

 

[Player -0]

Currently for some characters they can't reach the top characters even with a DJ. Notably slower characters like Ganon. This may become less of a problem in 3.5 but right now it's really good for camping. It's a good CP stage but it's hard for some characters. Even then, there are bans so lol.

If anything change the platforms a bit so they're less confusing where you land on it/where it ends. Maybe darken part of the cloud to show it?

Maybe more later.

 

[arcticfox8]

It's pretty good

 

[Cubelarooso]

Oops I'm slow.

I really like PS1, except for the camping. It provides a nice variety of elements through the transformations, and I especially love the potential that the idea behind the stage contains.
I doubt there's a way to make PS1 not a camping site besides removing the walls, but there are several ways that could be gone about. They could just be moved to the background, or the forms removed entirely. They could be replaced with forms based on Brawl PS2's, or with new forms inspired by other Pokémon types, or all the forms could be remodeled into a fusion of two types.
Personally, there are some elements from vPS2 which I'd be interested in testing for competitive reworkability, be it for a PS1 form or an entire stage (although they'd need to be less extreme if not temporary). Low traction could be real fun with wavedashing. Treadmills moving inward would force interaction rather than inhibit it. I doubt low-gravity is salvageable, but maybe if it only took place under some "main platform"? And the shape and platforms of vPS2's Ground form make me think it's close to being a non-campy way to implement an on-stage wall.
As for overlap with PM's PS2, I like the idea of the stage running through all its forms before returning to Normal, and either Sttadium could see its dimensions changed.
If PS1 is ever changed, and a Grass form kept, I submit a request for it to have a patch of the series' ubiquitous tall grass, for flavor and ambushes.

I don't think transformations are inherently bad, and a handful is alright for a stagelist. They're good in that they allow more elements, and even multiple choices for ones that are usually matchup-defining (size, blastzones, walled sides). Changing mid-match can keep from favoring any one character for too long, and it means elements can be used that would destroy the viability of a static stage; on the other hand, it gives players less time to adapt to their opponent's strategies on a particular form, which at worst codifies interactions, but at best places more emphasis on speed of adaptability (even more so if the forms are random). It should also be noted that, if the transformations (or any other factor) is a periodic occurrence, it places more value on the skills of stage-knowledge and timer-awareness.
Whether transforming is good or bad comes down to how the individual stage implements it, both in forms and transitions. PS1 has pretty good transitions: they're random, but come in generally consistent intervals with plenty of warning and nor repetition until each form is used, and it amounts to no more than the movement of platforms. But of course, its forms range from okay to game-halting. I'd go over other stages, but I don't want to be too late, so I'll talk about them as they come.

 

[Sandfall]

Thanks for all of your responses. Here's part 4 of our official stage discussion! This week, we'll be discussing Yoshi's Island: Brawl!

Also... What's this? A White Shy Guy? What's he doing here?

 

[Broasty]

As a Luigi main, I love Yoshi Story (Brawl). The only thing I have against it is the random shy guys who have literally stuffed my recovery when using Side B...could you please remove them?

 

[Comeback Kid]

White Shy Guys are friendly so no worries.

 

[Rᴏb]

So I'm guessing the white shy guys indicate which platform ghost is about to pop up?

 

[TreK]

There's a bit of an angle right below the ledge, the stage looks like it should have a straight wall until the bottom.

I'm not going to give more feedback than that, it's my character's best stage so I don't want to be biased~

What do white shy guys do ?

 

[Piford]

The Ghost platforms are awful. The shy guys aren't nearly as bad, but they are better.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Shy guys can actually harm your recovery. The ghost platforms would be fine as a unique but nonintrusive element if not for the randomness.