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Character Discussion Thread

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Scoliosis Jones

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On the topic of DLC, I'm actually very interested in the topic.

My response to the people who only see veterans coming back, is that veterans outside of Lucas (if he's cut), Mewtwo (if he isn't in initially) and MAYBE Roy will be tough sells to people who don't care. Newcomers, at least 1 or 2, would be ideal for DLC.

That said, I believe that at the very least there will be 4 DLC characters. Basically a Season Pass like Mortal Kombat 9.

I'm not expecting a buttload necessarily, but I don't think it would hurt to show interest in particular characters for it. Snake could always come back too. After all, Isaac Clarke was DLC for PSASBR. You never know.

Also, check out my sig!
 
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Cobalsh

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Glad to share more ideas on Chorus Kids. :)

The main thing that differentiates them from Ice Climbers is that they wouldn't roam around on their own. I, among some other supporters, have speculated that they would be programmed as one character, albeit looking like three separate characters. This would save a lot of development time, as there's really no reason to develop them separately: they are identical in appearance and need to stick together in order to perform their attacks.

I'm working on a moveset so I'll share that when I'm finished.
It actually wouldn't save development time, because you have to have three different entities programmed to move all at once, and react the same completely for certain things. That's what makes the Ice Climbers great, they only have to do the same move, otherwise they're free to do whatever they please. It allows for more versatility, and it's technically just copy-paste Popo to Nana, since they're the same thing, but different entities.

Meanwhile, you suggest that three characters, looking the same and having the same actions, should be programmed into one one character? That makes no sense and would probably take more development time than the Ice Climbers or even Rosalina and Luma.
 

AEMehr

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Who even thinks that a 3 character tag team is even that unique? Referring to chorus men.

Rhythm itself is a much more unique concept that could be used with just one, Marshal in specific
I second Louie's mentality on the subject. I highly doubt the group aspect of the character is the main selling point, I'm more than certain there is a musical focus put into their moveset. We'll just need to wait and see what happens when we see gameplay of them.
 

Louie G.

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If they're programmed as one, then why have multiple of them in the first place?
This is kind of in response to @ Cobalsh Cobalsh too. Similar ideas.

It's a visual thing. An essential part of the Chorus Kids' character is that they are part of a Glee Club; they're in a group and they must stay in sync and mimic each other. Having multiple of them is keeping them true to character, and lends itself well to keeping rhythm, as I mentioned before.

Think 3 Olimar sized Chorus Kids, spanning the length of Bowser, programmed as one character.
It's more beneficial for 3DS development.

@Phaazoid and @ Hong Hong may be able to help me talk from a game development standpoint.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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What I find to be arguably the most surprising thing is that if the Gematsu Trio (Chrom, Shulk and the Chorus Men) makes up the final 3 newcomer characters, then there will be no DK newcomer. I'm by far more surprised by this than, say, the probable exclusion of Ridley.
 

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If they're programmed as one, then why have multiple of them in the first place?
Because they are a team, like they are advertised as a trio, think of it like the ice climbers, having one wouldn't make justice to their characters, they're like those barbershop quartets.
 
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Louie G.

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What I find to be arguably the most surprising thing is that if the Gematsu Trio (Chrom, Shulk and the Chorus Men) makes up the final 3 newcomer characters, then there will be no DK newcomer. I'm by far more surprised by this than, say, the probable exclusion of Ridley.
I agree. At one point I considered the exclusion of a DK character ridiculous. Now I see it as a real possibility, unfortunately.

K. Rool is probably in the best shape out of any non-Gematsu newcomer, however (Mewtwo isn't a newcomer). If we get anyone outside the leak, my money's on K. Rool.
 

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K. Rool is probably in the best shape out of any non-Gematsu newcomer, however (Mewtwo isn't a newcomer). If we get anyone outside the leak, my money's on K. Rool.
I wholeheartedly agree. He's really got quite a bit going for him compared to most other characters, and really nothing going against him. Honestly, if it weren't for the leak, I'd say he had more going for him than Shulk did (though obviously the leak changes that).
 

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Going back to speculating about possible characters...that's actually one of my least favorite aspects of Smash discussions, so I am glad we got the leak. (Although, I'd love if Chorus Kids were a secret up to their reveal, since I like to imagine myself losing my **** at the surprise of a Rhythm Heaven character lol.)

See, I'm more interested in the design of the game as a whole and how veterans can translate to the new environment, and how the game will end up as a package. I also love to see new characters and veterans presented in this new art style and game. Talks about who should or shouldn't get in doesn't interest me, and I don't exactly like defending Chorus Kids and Snake as much as I do. When it comes to unrevealed newcomers, I'd rather talk about the possible design they could get, how their moveset will shape up and how they'll work as a character. Prior to Mac's reveal, all I talked about that isn't related to the boxing stage at E3 was how I thought a boxer could work in the context of Smash.

It's probably why I'm so open minded when it comes to newcomer. Yeah, I might occasionally express my disappointment towards Palutena, but that's more because of what her moveset is looking to be rather than her character. Even as someone who hates Chrom AND Awakening as a game, I'm completely fine with him in.
 
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EbonyRubberWolf

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According to...?

So if you don't like Gematsu, show proof that breaks it. Simple as that.

If you know something we don't, do share with the class if you would.
My god,this guy's the best at counter-arguments.

I-I can't argue against this myself. Every sentence is just too perfect.
 

Hong

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This is kind of in response to @ Cobalsh Cobalsh too. Similar ideas.

It's a visual thing. An essential part of the Chorus Kids' character is that they are part of a Glee Club; they're in a group and they must stay in sync and mimic each other. Having multiple of them is keeping them true to character, and lends itself well to keeping rhythm, as I mentioned before.

Think 3 Olimar sized Chorus Kids, spanning the length of Bowser, programmed as one character.
It's more beneficial for 3DS development.

@Phaazoid and @ Hong Hong may be able to help me talk from a game development standpoint.
It will vary so drastically on how this will be handled.

What we know about the beta build of Smash 4 is that the 3DS version is losing frames all the time under a wide range of circumstances. We can't know the specifics for why frame loss is occurring without knowing about everything that is going on under the hood, but that doesn't matter. All that matters is frames are being lost, and we need to look at the possible reasons why. Skip to the last paragraph if you want to know what this means for the Chorus Men.

There have been some common techniques used to handle graphical load, and not-so-common methods like what they did with Assist Trophies and Pokemon. All in all, a veteran team of game designers won't have a problem handling graphical load. They wouldn't have stages like Reset Bomb Forest if they didn't know a mix of very basic and very advanced optimization techniques. It doesn't take an expert to already see what they have done to reduce graphical load, so I won't go over that in detail.

Thus, CPU is of course what is in question. On all accounts, the 3DS could display even a graphically superior version of Melee, but it's not simple. A lot of people instantly jump the gun and say the 3DS is more powerful than the Gamecube, and in a lot of ways, this is true. That said, it is largely graphical tools, like how it manages shaders. As far as CPU is concerned, it going to run into issues. This is evident when there are a lot of calculations to make as a result of mostly physics, but as well as entity generation, anything that involves a lot of joints, and of course even memory access, for all that running on a chip can do. Of course physics is at the core of Smash Bros more than any other fighter, and there is only so much load you can reduce when you NEED physics to play the game.

Luma does not have a lot of strain on the system for a number of reasons. It scarcely has any joints, and a lot of the movements rely on basic distortions which will pass off just fine due to its simplistic shape. The environmental pushbox for the entity is very generous and makes fewer, less intensive calculations. Basically, if it looks floaty, it will never be a problem for the end-user. What is more is the facial expressions are essentially cycled images, or so it seems. Pikmin as well, while they do have physics calculations, are still relatively basic compared to most entities, and they've gone with as little movement as they could feasibly have to deal with.

So long story short, there is a technical strain on the 3DS version. That said they could still have Chorus Men operate in a number of ways. If all three exist at all times, it is possible that the animation parallax will be irrelevant with the actual graphical object. That is to say, if there are three, all forms of collision will be handled by just one. They can still fully program all the hitboxes and hurtboxes just like any character, programming them where appropriate for their actions. They can all stand together, stand on each other's shoulders, swing each other around and use animations that simulate realistic feel between the characters, when their actual physics are only reliant on one. In that sense, imagine if Ray Man was a character. Even if his body parts seemingly float around, his animations and the way the game handles it would treat him as one.
Those two don't know jack squat about game development.

Get @ Thirdkoopa Thirdkoopa instead.


I'm so glad everyone on the Internet is an expert in game design.

But please. After you. Here, take my seat. I'm hanging up my hat and going on vacation!
 

Hong

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hong did you have a screenname before

Also that post feels like it didn't need to be as long as it was

hi guys i heard my name and i came like batman, what's the issue?
Lunadis.

Also, yes, it could have been less wordy. But I felt likewagering a guess on what I knew about the game from our limited information and how it could determine what kinds of character we will see, and how they function, and even left the memo to skip to the last paragraph if the rest of the post was too boring.

Essentially the issue goes back to Mr. Sakurai's comments on the technical limitations of the 3DS, and what it can imply for characters who are multiple characters, such as the proposed Chorus Men.
 

Opossum

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I don't think a team of three characters (basically Ice Climbers + 1) is feasible. If the Chorus is in the game at all, it's by just Marshall.

But then what's the point?
Did you miss the part about sharing one model?
 

Opossum

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...How...? I don't see how that could would work.
I just got here, if someone has an real example of that, I'd love to see it.
I think it was Hong who brought this up. Think of it like Rayman was in the game. The animations would look like there's multiple models/hitboxes, but in actuality they'd share a model.
 

Kenith

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I think it was Hong who brought this up. Think of it like Rayman was in the game. The animations would look like there's multiple models/hitboxes, but in actuality they'd share a model.
Rayman would be one model. His arm and leg bones would just be invisible.

Having three characters share the same model would be super convoluted, and maybe impossible.
I could've seen Olimar using this feature since his Pikmin follow him so closely, but I don't think he does.
 

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Rayman would be one model. His arm and leg bones would just be invisible.

Having three characters share the same model would be super convoluted, and maybe impossible.
I could've seen Olimar using this feature since his Pikmin follow him so closely, but I don't think he does.
Think of it like this: each Kid is a separate "limb." Does that help?
 

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I think it was Hong who brought this up. Think of it like Rayman was in the game. The animations would look like there's multiple models/hitboxes, but in actuality they'd share a model.
Sukapon is another great example, along with the entirety of Joy Mech Fight.
Seizure Warning at the beginning. If you are prone to seizures, please skip ahead to 1:00

This game is really fun, by the way. Basic, but fun. It's oozing with charm.
 
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Hong

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Did you miss the part about sharing one model?
It's all still assuming what the technical limitations are. I made some fairly bold assumptions as to where the frame loss is occurring. I can be 100% wrong in everything I have said. That said, given what I have observed with the demo build, the way objects and characters behave, it felt like a reasonable gamble. In any event, I wouldn't say it's technically sharing a model, but I suppose I'll leave it at that if that's easier to imagine. All that matters is that there are technical solutions to the problem.

But indeed. If my guess is correct, it would imply that they are not synchronized entities like Nana was. Thus, they will always be locked to set animations and within set relativity of each other. Hitting one would hit all of them. Smash Bros is a sidescroller game in a 3d environment, so they can always afford to have them stand relatively close to each other by being positioned next to each other on the y plane, if necessary., especially if they use a fake 2d effect like Mr. Game & Watch.

It would be strange, but that has been the theme with newcomers so far. Rules are broken all the time in Smash Bros. In this game, Greninja is, from a technical standpoint, the least interesting character.

Rayman would be one model. His arm and leg bones would just be invisible.

Having three characters share the same model would be super convoluted, and maybe impossible.
I could've seen Olimar using this feature since his Pikmin follow him so closely, but I don't think he does.
I wouldn't say that. If they are "2d" like Game & Watch, they can basically be almost literally connected by the hip without clipping. In fact, I could be so bold as to say that since the Chorus Men could graphically be presented as 2d characters, they are more attractive subjects for this approach than the Ice Climbers.
 
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Spinosaurus

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Let's not forget that if Sneaky Spirit is anything to go by, Chorus Kids might end up 2D.

A sprite is way less demanding than a full 3D model.

EDIT: heh
 
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Pacack

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Rayman and Sukapon don't work the same way as what you're proposing though.

Seriously, I need an example.
If one of the men gets hit, the others either get knocked away as well (because they're mimicking him), or run towards him.

(Speaking of Joy Mech Fight, btw, have some cool music.)
 
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Louie G.

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Thank you @ Hong Hong , hopefully that helps people understand my idea better.

It'd be kind of pointless to develop the Kids as three separate characters, considering they don't stray apart at all.
I can't see them being 2d. It would take away from Mr. Game & Watch's uniqueness, plus there's no reason to do it.
I didn't think they would do it until I saw Sneaky Spirit as a 2D model.

When you think about it, Rhythm Heaven isn't really known for 3D characters. Lots of 2D models in game.
Not many of them would translate all too well into 3D.
 
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IsmaR

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By that logic, Pac-Man infringes on G&W's "uniqueness" with his summons and Final Smash.

So long as Game and Watch is still the only Game and Watch character, I think he'd still be more than unique.
 

Gunla

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The way to take away the unique flatness of Game and Watch is to go to his home stage.
Everyone will fit right in. I don't see his flatness as his uniqueness but his ability to have a balanced moveset that's also quite erratic in nature and his representation of the Game and Watch line rather strongly.

It's the gameplay and his sole existence that counts. Pretty much any solo series character is unique in which they represent their own series by themself.
 

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Also note that Mr. Game and Watch is still the only character in smash that's monochrome and which uses frame by frame movement. The 2D isn't all that makes him stick out.
 
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Wrestler would translate fine, but Rhythm Heaven characters aren't necessarily made to be in 3D.
If Wrestler is in the game at all (likely assist IMO) he'll probably be 2D to match up with the other representatives of his series.
I guess that means Toon Link will be cel-shaded, seeing as all the content from his game is.

The playable characters stay faithful to their games, but also are consistent with the other characters.
 

Hong

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I can't see them being 2d. It would take away from Mr. Game & Watch's uniqueness, plus there's no reason to do it.
I disagree.

I have never played a Rhythm Heaven game in my life, so I can't 100% vouch for the presentation of the product. But I have been playing Game & Watch for almost as long as my thumbs have been working.

Old Game & Watch games are essentially glorified calculators; the crystal display can "colour in" shapes on the screen to simulate moving objects. Of course later on games are just sprites like any other, but they still emulate the feel of the original line of crystal games. Mr. Game & Watch looks flat as if you were looking at the game on a crystal display, and makes no attempt to pretend to have depth.

From what I know about Rhythm Heaven, that is not the case. They look like cartoon characters. The Chorus Men in particular look like sketches. As if you ripped from paper and put them into Smash Bros. In that sense, they will be literal thin-as-paper objects in a 3d space, but not pretending to be 2d. They are pretending to be paper.
 

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I guess that means Toon Link will be cel-shaded, seeing as all the content from his game is.

The playable characters stay faithful to their games, but also are consistent with the other characters.
Dude, you can argue all you want, but we already have an example of Rhythm Heaven content in 2D. At this point, you're arguing against Sakurai on what needs to be consistent.
 
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I can't see them being 2d. It would take away from Mr. Game & Watch's uniqueness, plus there's no reason to do it.
One of the series' defining features and biggest appeal is that it's fully 2D in an age where 3D makes up the vast majority of the industry. There are only two minigames in the whole series that has a 3D model.

That, coupled with the very simplistic designs the series has, makes it ideal for a representative to be 2D.
 
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