Character Discussion Thread

[AncientTobacco]

I like! I would just recommend adding a FE newcomer (Chrom or Robin most likely) and Mewtwo in favor of Sceptile.

I considered adding Robin, but decided against it in favor of Sceptile. I don't hold any particular attachment to either of them, but I like how Sceptile would complete the starter type trinity.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

With the Sceptile vs Mewtwo thing, the voice in the back of my head is screaming Mewtwo, and I know I should agree. I just.....would get so OCD about not having a grass type....

 

[TumblrFamous]

With the Sceptile vs Mewtwo thing, the voice in the back of my head is screaming Mewtwo, and I know I should agree. I just.....would get so OCD about not having a grass type....

I get OCD about not having a Mewtwo.

 

[Second Power]

- You left out the part where Sakurai mentioned that he couldn't make a mounted character work in Melee days. I'm pretty sure that would still be difficult now.

He couldn't make Pokemon Trainer work in Melee days either. Additionally, Melee was really pressed for dev time, so using it as the baseline isn't really logical.

- You also left out the part where Takamaru is about ten times more popular than Mach Rider, who people are just flocking to because Takamaru's seen as too obvious on these forums.

Ten times Mach Rider's popularity is still pretty small. In Short's latest poll (http://smashboards.com/threads/the-ssb4-poll-lounge-two-new-polls.324324/), Takamaru did very poorly. And that was purely distributed to gaming communities, not your average joe. I really don't think you can say Takamaru is that popular.

- The inclusion of a Ninja frog doesn't hurt Takamaru any more than the inclusion of...well, the actual human Ninja in Melee. Ninja =/= Samurai. Like, at all. I mean, Takamaru never even uses ninja stars in his game. That was just a Nintendoland thing. He uses Kunai (throwing knives), windmill blades, and fireballs. No stars.

No argument.

 

[Louie G.]

For the record, I'm not trying to be offensive at all. You're actually one of my favorite people here. I just get a little passionate when I argue.

Daww, thanks!

As for the mount character being something that Sakurai couldn't pull off back in Melee, it at least shows that he had considered it at one point. Sakurai is revisiting some of his old ideas, so I could see Mach being one of them for sure.

Takamaru is more popular, but popularity isn't necessarily the deciding factor this time around.

And I think Greninja hurts Takamaru because of his Japanese motif, not his abilities.
I just thought that niche would be reserved for Takamaru.

 

[Pacack]

He couldn't make Pokemon Trainer work in Melee days either. Additionally, Melee was really pressed for dev time, so using it as the baseline isn't really logical.

As for the mount character being something that Sakurai couldn't pull off back in Melee, it at least shows that he had considered it at one point. Sakurai is revisiting some of his old ideas, so I could see Mach being one of them for sure.

It's still a very difficult concept to pull off, though. He might be able to do it now, but he can create just as interesting a retro character without resorting to a difficult-to-implement gimmick like that. He might revisit it, but it seems like more work than its work, imo.

Ten times Mach Rider's popularity is still pretty small. In Short's latest poll (http://smashboards.com/threads/the-ssb4-poll-lounge-two-new-polls.324324/), Takamaru did very poorly. And that was purely distributed to gaming communities, not your average joe. I really don't think you can say Takamaru is that popular.

He's popular for a retro, though. I mean, obviously he's still fairly unknown, but he's asked for a whole lot more.

Also, something to note is that Pit was said to be "popular" in Brawl days, when he paled in comparison to the likes of Wario, Meta Knight, and the like. That implies that Sakurai himself measures retro characters' popularity compared only to other retro characters.

Daww, thanks!

<3

Takamaru is more popular, but popularity isn't necessarily the deciding factor this time around.

I'm using Pit's example as a base since we don't really have anywhere else to look for that. It's also interesting to note that his relative obscurity might actually override this, but I can't say for sure.

And I think Greninja hurts Takamaru because of his Japanese motif, not his abilities.
I just thought that niche would be reserved for Takamaru.

Can we even say Greninja has that Japanese motif, though? He's based around the fighting style of a ninja, but that's it. He doesn't bring along the Japanese motif that you're talking about like Takamaru would.

I mean, does this give off a Japanese vibe?

I'd say no. But does this?

 

[GrapeEscape]

Daww, thanks!

As for the mount character being something that Sakurai couldn't pull off back in Melee, it at least shows that he had considered it at one point. Sakurai is revisiting some of his old ideas, so I could see Mach being one of them for sure.

Takamaru is more popular, but popularity isn't necessarily the deciding factor this time around.

And I think Greninja hurts Takamaru because of his Japanese motif, not his abilities.
I just thought that niche would be reserved for Takamaru.

I think Mach Rider's incredibly detailed trophy (for not being playable, at least) and the Mach Rider medley which played on Big Blue are large pieces of evidence that he was going to be in the game. I really hope he's this game's retro, his motorcycle and its mounted machine guns could make him a really unique character.

 

[Louie G.]

I don't know, just not feeling too confident in the samurai anymore.

However I do want to see him a lot.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Question for moderators: is this a safe place to talk about DLC characters?

 

[Pacack]

I don't know, just not feeling too confident in the samurai anymore.

However I do want to see him a lot.

How about playing his game? It sounds strange, but that's what solidified me on his chances. If Sakurai's played the game, incorporating it into a playstyle would just be too tempting to pass up.

The game's incredible fun (if a bit...demanding). I'd recommend it even if you didn't have any interest in the Samurai.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Last time most of us ignored the Pokemon criteria Sakurai brought up which hinted a new Pokemon character, and now were ignoring Sakurai's statement of reviving retro characters for our speculation?
I'm just telling you guys, a retro character is coming, and it will be most likely Takamaru.

 

[aldelaro5]

As I said yesterday, I will talk about a personal theory I had since some months about SSE and how it affected repping in brawl in an odd/bad way. Since this will be a long read, here's my official realtalk music (decided so in the ridley thread).

REALTALK!!!

So first, I'm just going to tell my general opinion on the mode itself. For me, this mode seemed like it would've been good with the adventure and CS parts. It turned out to be good but the problem isn't the mode itself but rather the circumstances surrounding the development of this mode with the whole game. It's common knowledge that it took a lot of dev time which affected the rest of the game. The most obvious one was cutting mewtwo and roy which were close to be done due to time constraints but the cause of time constraints has probably something to do with SSE.

The mode wasn't even coded in an optimal way. In fact, the need of the disc to be double layer could have been avoided because of how the code was copy pasted instead being shared which would actually lower loading time. Basically, it was so much rushed that it affected the development of the whole game.

But I think it got a little further than this: repping. I have to remind you that if SSE took so much time then it would mean that some contents would've been designed to suit the need of SSE and not necessarily the rest of the game. It could arguably be considered the "main" solo mode because of how you can unlock every characters in this mode. Now, I'm going to talk about some evidences that I found so odd that makes the making of SSE even more questionable (imo, it's even more questionable than random tripping).

First, ridley. No, I'm not going to bring the "too big" drama here but rather how he was repped in ssbb. He's a boss... in SSE. We all know how SSE is basically a kirby adventure mode right? Then, why ridley moves like dyna blade? That is VERY odd how could ridley, considered to be the main antagonist in the metroid series that isn't kirby would act like a kirby boss?

I believe that it was because Sakurai wanted to have a boss here because of SSE and to feel more Nintendo than kirby, he would've chosen a boss from another nintendo series and make him act like Sakurai wanted: a kirby boss since it IS a kirby adventure mode after all. The problem here is very obvious: why exactly would you pick ridley only because he could look like dyna blade? Then, let's say ridley wasn't suited for that then who would've been the boss? dyna blade himself? In fact, what I think is that ridley got lucky to even be a boss because if it wasn't for dyna blade, I think he would've ended up being a mere trophy and I know what it feels *cough* Paper Mario series *cough*

So, there's that but I have even more. There was a mario & luigi music in ssbb which is called Gritzy Desert. Now, I haven't played partner in time but I can tell you that it's definitely a dessert music. Problem? Well, it feels too bland and that's coming from someone who only played ONE game in the series and found it a little weak (imo but I liked more the paper mario series). The game I played was superstar saga and I can assure you that even if I found the game weak, I can't understand the music chosen in ssbb. Why not the boss battle theme? Or cacketta theme? Or this catchy music remixed?

(yeah it's short but I need to dance every time I hear it).

There's one explanation I have that would explain that: it's implemented in the SSE. I don't remember exactly where but there's a location that's supposed to feel bland that have this music. Don't get me wrong, that's supposed to be appropriate but my issue is tha what if there wasn't any bland location? Would that mean that this music wouldn't be there? It really gives me the impression that the only reason they chose this music was because it would be suited for a location but only for SSE purpose.

If this music wouldn't be chosen, then it would probably another of those remixed ssbb main theme or a kirby music. Did we just lost a good representation of music just because of SSE? I personally even question the point of repping M&L before Paper Mario (imo but I want one PM music SO MUCH).

And speaking of Paper Mario... why only trophies and stickers? I can pass you 20 music tracks from the first 3 games that should go before the dessert theme. They are really good but aren't acknowledged and for me who think that TTYD was a masterpiece, that's a problem.

I heard a few pages back that earthbound doesn't have a lot of trophies but what is more shocking is that it's even less than Paper Mario!!! At least here there's a playable rep because honestly, earthbound deserves this rep and it deserves more than Paper Mario.

My last issues is another music. This is even more questionable than Paper Mario here: why in the world there's no lower norfair music? Honestly I can't believe that the multiplayer music of mp2 (which was just a bonus mode btw) got before that. But again, the same music was played on a location for SSE that fits this music. Lower norfair no matter if it's from super metroid or mp1 is imo the best music in the series. It's so intense and epic imagine this in battle? Did we just lost that because of SSE?

Lastly, I want to make a point about this and SSB4. Now, I'm not going to debate the reasons Sakurai don't want another SSE (imo, he could've partially said the truth to not make ssbb look bad) but what I'm going to tell is if my theory is somehow true, we can hope for a better repping now.

Smash run on the 3ds is just ONE single player mode that is replayable many times so it's not like SSE where you could unlock everyone by playing it. It's rather a nice solo addition but this time, it looks like Sakurai learned from his mistakes. Granted, there's more kid icarus enemies but there are a lot more rep in other series than there was in SSE. Even Sonic and namco got rep here that was not the case in SSE. There's even more rep in already existing series like Zelda which I think is more properly repped this time comparing to SSE.

But here, this is JUST smash run what about music? trophies? stage? and even characters!!! Yes, not over centralizing the efforts on an SSE like mode could mean more characters. And this is where mewtwo can get his chance or even ridley (arguably however considering the last direct but you get the idea). But it could also means more time for newcomers which would be better. Basically, not focusing on another SSE is a reason to give us hope about better repping which most of people here wants. Don't you love a series that you tough it was injustice on how it was repped in ssbb? Well, this may be the chance to fixe this issue now and I hope we will see that here.

And that's it!!! Feel free to give my review here because it's something that has been bothering me for a while and I want to know if what I said does or doesn't make sense.

 

[Deleted member]

Thing is, Sakurai never actually said he was going to "revive a retro character" (a concept that is commonly and infuriatingly miscomprehended).

Let's take a look at the direct quote from the interview:

Adam Riley: You have mentioned how you like to breathe new life into forgotten franchises. Now that Kid Icarus has been completed, what other old classic would you like to look at? Ice Climbers, Star Tropics, MoleMania…or something non-Nintendo?

Sakurai-san: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros. From that perspective, I am probably in the most fortunate position in the world.

All he's saying is that he plans on breathing new life into forgotten franchises through Smash, NOT that he's going to add a "retro character" for the sake of being retro (which only the Ice Climbers had similar reasoning).
Not saying that there won't be a character that's been revived from the days of old as a newcomer, but considering that there are other means in which old characters can be featured in Smash (which applies to all games after the original) and that Sakurai never said there will be one, to treat one as an inevitability is asinine.

 

[Second Power]

It's still a very difficult concept to pull off, though. He might be able to do it now, but he can create just as interesting a retro character without resorting to a difficult-to-implement gimmick like that. He might revisit it, but it seems like more work than its work, imo.

I don't know, he seems interested in making more work for himself this time around. I could've said pretty much the same thing for Rosalina. "A puppeteer character is difficult... There are other more popular mario characters who wouldn't be so difficult to make..."

He's popular for a retro, though. I mean, obviously he's still fairly unknown, but he's asked for a whole lot more.

Also, something to note is that Pit was said to be "popular" in Brawl days, when he paled in comparison to the likes of Wario, Meta Knight, and the like. That implies that Sakurai himself measures retro characters' popularity compared only to other retro characters.

Can't really speak here since I wasn't around for Brawl time, so I'll keep my yap shut.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Didn't Sakurai say that he would add Takamaru if he was featured in new games?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Didn't Sakurai say that he would add Takamaru if he was featured in new games?

He would consider him if he did have one, but it's not a guarenteed Takamaru is in statement.
On second thought , this is probably the most beneficial source that helps Takamaru's chances more.

 

[Cobalsh]

He would consider him if he did have one, but it's not a guarenteed Takamaru is in statement.
On second thought , this is probably the most beneficial source that helps Takamaru's chances more.

You know, that would be great and all.



If he had appeared in a game, not if it used his namesake and/or a re-release, not matter where it was.

 

[Pacack]

I don't know, he seems interested in making more work for himself this time around. I could've said pretty much the same thing for Rosalina. "A puppeteer character is difficult... There are other more popular mario characters who wouldn't be so difficult to make..."

True, but I think the pros for Takamaru put him over Mach Rider in likelihood overall.

Didn't Sakurai say that he would add Takamaru if he was featured in new games?

Yeah, but it's not clear if he meant any game or his own game. I assume the latter, myself.

 

[Deleted member]

Didn't Sakurai say that he would add Takamaru if he was featured in new games?

No.

What was actually said was that if there were more Murasame-Jo titles, there would be high probability of Takamaru being featured in Smash. Which was followed by the probability also being low.
I'm assuming the low probability is referring to the idea that Murasame-Jo would get more titles.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

I don't know, he seems interested in making more work for himself this time around. I could've said pretty much the same thing for Rosalina. "A puppeteer character is difficult... There are other more popular mario characters who wouldn't be so difficult to make..."

Not sure why Rosalina would be difficult to make. She's essentially Ice Climbers with greater individual control and a smaller, resummonable Nana. Seems like to me if they can figure out how to make Ice Climbers work, Rosalina was probably an easy addition.

 

[Second Power]

Not sure why Rosalina would be difficult to make. She's essentially Ice Climbers with greater individual control and a smaller, resummonable Nana. Seems like to me if they can figure out how to make Ice Climbers work, Rosalina was probably an easy addition.

Not so much difficult from a technical standpoint, but a balancing standpoint.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Not so much difficult from a technical standpoint, but a balancing standpoint.

Doesn't seem difficult to me. Make the Luma hit softly, but have decent knockback. Whole point of the Luma is to be an expendable percentage-dealing damage fodder.

 

[AncientTobacco]

Not sure why Rosalina would be difficult to make. She's essentially Ice Climbers with greater individual control and a smaller, resummonable Nana. Seems like to me if they can figure out how to make Ice Climbers work, Rosalina was probably an easy addition.

In case you didn't know, Sakurai stated last year that they were having trouble with double characters like the Ice Climbers on the 3DS.

 

[Second Power]

Doesn't seem difficult to me. Make the Luma hit softly, but have decent knockback. Whole point of the Luma is to be an expendable percentage-dealing damage fodder.

I think you're simplifying it a bit too much. A lot of stuff can go wrong. A puppeteer character (especially one with a disposable, semi-easily revived puppet) is incredibly safe in terms of risk/reward. You also have to worry about how Rosalina works without a Luma. You can end up with an incredible zoner who's main flaw is mitigated by being having a passable playstyle without the puppet, an incredible zoner who either bodies or gets bodied, a poor zoner who just abuses dual characters for infinites, etc.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

I think you're simplifying it a bit too much. A lot of stuff can go wrong. A puppeteer character (especially one with a disposable, semi-easily revived puppet) is incredibly safe in terms of risk/reward. You also have to worry about how Rosalina works without a Luma. You can end up with an incredible zoner who's main flaw is mitigated by being having a passable playstyle without the puppet, an incredible zoner who either bodies or gets bodied, a poor zoner who just abuses dual characters for infinites, etc.

I don't feel like I'm simplifying it too much. Nana follows and attempts to imitate your button presses. Functionally, they're two characters, and technically, the first puppet character. You're controlling both characters, and good Ice Climber players can desynch them and essentially just wreck people to pieces.

Rosalina and Luma are the same thing as Ice Climbers, essentially. They may look different, but they're functionally the same. Just that it appears Rosalina relies less on Luma to be a fully functional character. If anything, Rosalina and Luma are likely going to get favored by Ice Climber mains because Luma seems far easier to control than Nana does.

Essentially, what I'm saying here is that Rosalina and Luma are Ice Climbers Lite.

In case you didn't know, Sakurai stated last year that they were having trouble with double characters like the Ice Climbers on the 3DS.

He doesn't directly say the Ice Climbers. They say that there's technical hurdles, which they've likely solved by now. At any rate, I doubt they'd have shown off Rosalina if they hadn't fixed or circumvented the issue.

 

[Spinosaurus]

The thing about Luma is that she's not the same as Rosalina at all and pretty weak, whereas Nana has everything Popo has.

 

[AncientTobacco]

He doesn't directly say the Ice Climbers. They say that there's technical hurdles, which they've likely solved by now. At any rate, I doubt they'd have shown off Rosalina if they hadn't fixed or circumvented the issue.

Eventually solving the issue doesn't mean it wasn't difficult.

 

[Neerb]

Not to derail the Rosalina discussion, but I'm just gonna sneak my Dream Roster in here. I say "dream" because it has Ray instead of a new DK rep, and not only does almost no one else add Ray, but I doubt even Nintendo remembers him at this point.

 

[9Volt]

I do belive there gonna be at least one retro char, I would like Duck Hunt Dog :/

 

[FlareHabanero]

Personally I find the retro thing to be nothing but one big double standard that people heavily exaggerate.

 

[Neerb]

Personally I find the retro thing to be nothing but one big double standard that people heavily exaggerate.

"Double standard?" How so?

 

[9Volt]

"Double standard?" How so?

Ice Climbers and Pit in Melee and Brawl probabily

 

[Neerb]

Ice Climbers and Pit in Melee and Brawl probabily

I still don't get it. How is it a double standard?

 

[Pacack]

Personally I find the retro thing to be nothing but one big double standard that people heavily exaggerate.

Adam Riley: You have mentioned how you like to breathe new life into forgotten franchises. Now that Kid Icarus has been completed, what other old classic would you like to look at? Ice Climbers, Star Tropics,MoleMania…or something non-Nintendo?

Sakurai-san: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros. From that perspective, I am probably in the most fortunate position in the world.
​

It's not a double standard when Sakurai confirmed he's planning on adding one.

 

[Morbi]

Adam Riley: You have mentioned how you like to breathe new life into forgotten franchises. Now that Kid Icarus has been completed, what other old classic would you like to look at? Ice Climbers, Star Tropics,MoleMania…or something non-Nintendo?

Sakurai-san: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros. From that perspective, I am probably in the most fortunate position in the world.
​

It's not a double standard when Sakurai confirmed he's planning on adding one.

I still do not understand how it would be a double standard even without this confirmation.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

He doesn't actually say "retro", he says "old characters". Would Pac-Man, Little Mac, and Mega Man count?

 

[Pacack]

He doesn't actually say "retro", he says "old characters". Would Pac-Man, Little Mac, and Mega Man count?

The interviewer was talking specifically in the vein of old Nintendo franchises. So, no, they don't. Especially since he's not "bringing back" any of them.

 

[praline]

He doesn't actually say "retro", he says "old characters". Would Pac-Man, Little Mac, and Mega Man count?

I'd say they would.

 

[Pacack]

I'd say they would.

The interviewer was talking specifically in the vein of old Nintendo franchises. So, no, they don't. Especially since he's not "bringing back" any of them.

 

[Morbi]

The interviewer was talking specifically in the vein of old Nintendo franchises. So, no, they don't. Especially since he's not "bringing back" any of them.

I believe that Little Mac would probably count operating under that assumption though, even if he did not necessarily intend to revive Punch Out!! Something that he may have inadvertently done as a result of including him. Little Mac is for all intents and purposes an older Nintendo character.