Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[FE_Hector]

There are the main two mixups: dashing away from the opponent and dashing toward the opponent (when near the opponent, this would become dashing THROUGH the opponent).

These have micro-variations: wavedashing away + dashing away and wavedashing toward + dashing toward. The wavedash variant adjusts the starting point of your dash dance, which can be enough of a positional adjustment to avoid aerials or other big hitboxes.

There are a few other ways that you can adjust your positioning precisely (wavedashing in place, sticky walking, cactuar walking).

Tree grabs are also pretty useful. Basically go through them with a Cactuar dash and then do a turn around grab. Input would be someting like: run through, crouch, turn around and grab. It's really useful and can mess up a lot of people. It's not used too often.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I asked The Moon at EVO for just one single tip about Marth in general and he said movement. Where I'm at I'm told my movement in general is "good." But I'm also told by more experienced players that it needs to be more ambiguous. Movement tricks that fool some players do not work against others, I've learned. As far as studying neutral game goes, what should I be looking for while watching you or other Marth players as far as dash dance mixups go?

look for what the marth players threaten/cover with their dash. are they spaced to pivot grab an approach? are they spaced to fair? to WD dtilt? what happened last time in that space? answer questions like that for yourself and when watching others. dashes are not just dashes, they are connected to your tools and your opponents' tools.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts on Marth's (and to a lesser extent Falco's) dash attack?

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ FE_Hector I was referring to the ORIGINAL Cactuar dash: wavedashing toward the opponent, then immediately dashing the other way. The wavedash momentum puts you in a state similar to the sticky walk. You can immediately dash toward them again and can be visually tricky for the opponent to parse mentally if you use it sparingly.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ ChivalRuse I know you were, I was simply adding that I personally enjoy tree grabbing as a mixup.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts on Marth's (and to a lesser extent Falco's) dash attack?

Marth's is alright in the ditto, but normally in most matchups the risk is way higher than the reward, plus people can hold down vs it forever.

Falco's is pretty cool especially for combo continuing and sometimes tech chasing. Not fully sure how I feel about the move in a more nuanced way.

 

[FE_Hector]

Marth's is alright in the ditto, but normally in most matchups the risk is way higher than the reward, plus people can hold down vs it forever.

Falco's is pretty cool especially for combo continuing and sometimes tech chasing. Not fully sure how I feel about the move in a more nuanced way.

Alright, thanks. I'd heard that Falco's shouldn't be used too much, but a bit of experimentation on my part found that had some uses, so you really just confirmed that for me.

 

[Bones0]

Alright, thanks. I'd heard that Falco's shouldn't be used too much, but a bit of experimentation on my part found that had some uses, so you really just confirmed that for me.

Both of them share the weaknesses of being CCed easily and punished on block. I try to mostly use them on airborne opponents where neither of these defenses comes into play, but especially with Marth, getting a hard read dash attack on their dash away yields ridiculously high reward so I think it's often worth the risk (M2K does it all the time).

 

[FE_Hector]

I use it a bit for tech chasing.

 

[SpiderMad]

For starters, I don't really practice double Fair. I don't like it pretty much ever.

You do use it though (and the variants, SHFUair, seen I think SHFairBair used once vs Armada or something, never seen anyone really do a SHFDair though you mentioned it shield pokes amazingly well somehow, oh and I've also seen M2K or someone get a SHFairNair once or twice but it seems to suck so much that they usually don't get a decent follow-up). So I'm not sure what point your trying to get across by exaggerating it THAT much with your statement, I just know Umbreon and such all agree it's bad to do in Neutral or something. Are you suggesting I should try to stop using it pretty much ever (even for combos?) even though you surely don't?

How safe is Nair vs CC?

I've also seen your usage of SHFair to DJ Platform WL. Are you aware of Specials/AD don't work through IASA (Meaning SHFair DJ can be done like 3/4 frames sooner than waiting to SHFair WL)? Do you ever make use of SH Bair DJ WL (granting a decentish waveland when done optimally/quickly enough). Also you should to pull off this kooky SH Bair DJ Side-b Aerial sometime https://youtu.be/R3UbHAq4Tk0?t=1132

How should I go about determining which aerial to use from the ledge when coming onto the stage? Nair and Fair can AC, Uair usually reaps a good reword and Nair does at Low percents or something? And then when to mix up not coming onto the stage and just Fair regrab, and M2k's strict Neutral-B regrab should I go for that sometimes?

What should I keep in mind as a person who's played Falco for a lot of years to start improving my Marth game like I've been doing? I've been watching non-stop matches of you and M2K (and 700+ compilation of his edge guards), and been focusing on Spacies (and reading through a bunch of CG percentages and tips and so on, as well as randomly picking an old page of this thread to read). I don't really know when to start incorporating my Marth into my games as I picked him up (as a true secondary) for his button use ease and tons of fun and easy to learn with all the resources and matches out there (especially while I was getting tired of lengthily Falco dittoing a couple players lower in skill, so my main practice has been all vs Falco), and I remember you just saying you just randomly improved on him (and made some secret hidden personal break throughs regarding him as a character) that just "ended up" using him more and more often. You also mentioned that while he required some methodology/?lack of viable options?, you could still feel like you mixed things up enough as a player to express yourself: while Mango has that requirement in his game so much so that you mentioned he doesn't do some of the things he should/needs to apparently when he plays Marth (which don't work against him it seems so long as he keeps his Marth a wild card to throw off Leffen etc.). So should I be playing Marth with a set of methodology more so than I do with Falco? What are the things you're referring to Mango's Marth not doing correctly (it was an old post of yours I read).

I remember M2K and others talk about how he requires perfection, and I'm not aware on the full meaning of that belief but I certainly feel like I can pull through strides with Falco on being in the zone to just space good and such and go ham where as with Marth it's certainly more of a.. well you went over it sort of with he doesn't require excess button pressing. Well it pry comes a lot down to Falco wins neutral but Marth can punish heaviest, so in that sense playing in the zone allows a Falco to get through the game with good play (that feels more intrinsic to me at this point, also thanks lasers) while Marth has to through perfection when it counts (as in play primarily to punish and punish well): not sure how my novice statements hold up in terms of high level play but yeah.

I got this Peach player that constantly pulls off MMs from me (vs my Falco, and only stage I ever seem to win on is BF), but I've been wondering if I should start trying all Marth or just go Marth when he tries to CP FD (and stay Falco if he goes DL or something?). Also if I should CP Marth for Yoshis in a bo5 instead of Falco for Yoshis (I'm weak at getting concrete kills off the top with Falco), and for Bo3 what I should go/use when he bans Yoshis (Go Stadium with Falco or Marth or what? Eventually I'll get one of our MMs recorded). Like I need a whole game plan. I've watched Pound V vs Armada and EVO 2013, versus your more recent Marth matches against his Peach: personally I'm starting to not stand the Match up with Falco when Marth can start to make it feel a lot more tranquil to enjoy walling her out. There's also Westball'z take on fighting Armada, which in one set he camped BF's top platform, though more recent ones he just plays it his certain way which I'm not sure how to analyze and/or compare to yours.

Also you seem to use a lot of Shine on shield to FH away vs Armada's Peach (which on the more recent years yielded Uair baits, but at Pound you didn't get much it seems), and with Marth in general versus anyone you like to on Yoshis/BF go to the top platform and WL off and pass through side plat into Fair/Aerial. M2K doesn't quiet use that like you do, instead he usually opts for some kind of less tricky but still surprising FH Late Nairs a lot to catch people off guard while he's near the middle or so of Yoshis.

Have you put any more thought into catching turnips as Falco/Marth? I saw you catch one as Marth and went for a down toss off it into an aerial combo but it didn't work in time. Tai recommends in his guide to always just Z toss it because of Marth's slow throws (and Falcos are pry just a tad faster?).

My controller is totally for Falco though, it's extremely loose in the control stick
https://youtu.be/6dDGnmZbN8I?list=PLovBMkMLex7wYg0HcCVfW1g-cdrSXy51M along with other minor things that make it enjoyable for Falco and lasering but wonkier to control perfect dash dance gaming with. Even my grab button on the controller is like kind of secluded/harder to click (but more ergonomic in a way still), and that's more fine for Falco but this is a character you need it a lot and for CG'ing. I still have no clue how you get any of the newer type controllers to get a control to become loose at all (and mines really loose but in a good way that still registers well, others I've seen of old beat up controllers are loose in a horrible broken controller type of way), as well as how you get the triggers to become weakened via use alone.

There's also the situation with a Spacy/Character ending up knockdowned landing on Yoshi's top platform, and usually you and M2K handle it somewhat similar often: go for a FH Uair (and then M2K likes to DJ after the hit/miss and go for another aerial, not sure what you usually do). PewPewU went over practicing the Jump to DJ Insta-land thing on Yoshis though where u can get a grab off with the 0 impact landing, haven't watched enough games of him though to take notice if he uses that often for knock-down on top plat situations. Also you seem to have taken more akin than M2K to utilize Kadano's thread about SH Uair for Platform knockdowns on Spacies being guaranteed, and opt for that slightly more than him or so.

What are Marth's best options for Falco's Double Ledge laser again?

Are there any Marth things you practice specific to 20XX and its features? Like setting someone to shield and and going for something

Is B-turnaround Side-b (either the single use or the 1-2 of it) a lot slower than using Bair or is it sometimes faster to go for that to turnaround to grab the ledge? M2K always uses Bair.

Throughout the past year(s) you were mentioning in posts and your stream/interviews Sheiks really good (especially with Fair ACs Mix-ups you mentioned or something), now we're starting to see Druggedfox/Plup bring stuff to fruition regarding public opinion (similar to improving on the bars M2K set for Marth prior to you or so) especially Drugged with his now new outlet of Blogposts rather than SB posts apparently.

 

[Nicholas1024]

In the Marth ditto, what's your best option against someone who's repeatedly down tilting in neutral? And on a related note, what are some good ledge options against someone looking for the down tilt? I've had a rough time trying to get around that move in this matchup.

 

[Shchoo]

Hey guys, when CG'ing spacies, in order to avoid them shining out (20% ish for Fox) is the Pivot grab necessary or is it enough to DD Jump Cancel grab? (like, if you're a frame or two late on the pivot, would a JC suffice?)

 

[FE_Hector]

In the Marth ditto, what's your best option against someone who's repeatedly down tilting in neutral? And on a related note, what are some good ledge options against someone looking for the down tilt? I've had a rough time trying to get around that move in this matchup.

If they love their dtilts, I'd just use a fading fair in order to handle it. If they're looking to dtilt you off, then you should practice sweetspotting. If they try to dtilt you off of the ledge, then ledgehop fair after refreshing invincibility to force them to back off.

Hey guys, when CG'ing spacies, in order to avoid them shining out (20% ish for Fox) is the Pivot grab necessary or is it enough to DD Jump Cancel grab? (like, if you're a frame or two late on the pivot, would a JC suffice?)

I'm fairly sure you've gotta get the turnaround grab (not really a pivot) in order to get the regrab. @Kadano Have you tested this?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth is probably overall better vs Peach than Falco is.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You do use it though (and the variants, SHFUair, seen I think SHFairBair used once vs Armada or something, never seen anyone really do a SHFDair though you mentioned it shield pokes amazingly well somehow, oh and I've also seen M2K or someone get a SHFairNair once or twice but it seems to suck so much that they usually don't get a decent follow-up). So I'm not sure what point your trying to get across by exaggerating it THAT much with your statement, I just know Umbreon and such all agree it's bad to do in Neutral or something. Are you suggesting I should try to stop using it pretty much ever (even for combos?) even though you surely don't?

How safe is Nair vs CC?

I've also seen your usage of SHFair to DJ Platform WL. Are you aware of Specials/AD don't work through IASA (Meaning SHFair DJ can be done like 3/4 frames sooner than waiting to SHFair WL)? Do you ever make use of SH Bair DJ WL (granting a decentish waveland when done optimally/quickly enough). Also you should to pull off this kooky SH Bair DJ Side-b Aerial sometime https://youtu.be/R3UbHAq4Tk0?t=1132

How should I go about determining which aerial to use from the ledge when coming onto the stage? Nair and Fair can AC, Uair usually reaps a good reword and Nair does at Low percents or something? And then when to mix up not coming onto the stage and just Fair regrab, and M2k's strict Neutral-B regrab should I go for that sometimes?

What should I keep in mind as a person who's played Falco for a lot of years to start improving my Marth game like I've been doing? I've been watching non-stop matches of you and M2K (and 700+ compilation of his edge guards), and been focusing on Spacies (and reading through a bunch of CG percentages and tips and so on, as well as randomly picking an old page of this thread to read). I don't really know when to start incorporating my Marth into my games as I picked him up (as a true secondary) for his button use ease and tons of fun and easy to learn with all the resources and matches out there (especially while I was getting tired of lengthily Falco dittoing a couple players lower in skill, so my main practice has been all vs Falco), and I remember you just saying you just randomly improved on him (and made some secret hidden personal break throughs regarding him as a character) that just "ended up" using him more and more often. You also mentioned that while he required some methodology/?lack of viable options?, you could still feel like you mixed things up enough as a player to express yourself: while Mango has that requirement in his game so much so that you mentioned he doesn't do some of the things he should/needs to apparently when he plays Marth (which don't work against him it seems so long as he keeps his Marth a wild card to throw off Leffen etc.). So should I be playing Marth with a set of methodology more so than I do with Falco? What are the things you're referring to Mango's Marth not doing correctly (it was an old post of yours I read).

I remember M2K and others talk about how he requires perfection, and I'm not aware on the full meaning of that belief but I certainly feel like I can pull through strides with Falco on being in the zone to just space good and such and go ham where as with Marth it's certainly more of a.. well you went over it sort of with he doesn't require excess button pressing. Well it pry comes a lot down to Falco wins neutral but Marth can punish heaviest, so in that sense playing in the zone allows a Falco to get through the game with good play (that feels more intrinsic to me at this point, also thanks lasers) while Marth has to through perfection when it counts (as in play primarily to punish and punish well): not sure how my novice statements hold up in terms of high level play but yeah.

I got this Peach player that constantly pulls off MMs from me (vs my Falco, and only stage I ever seem to win on is BF), but I've been wondering if I should start trying all Marth or just go Marth when he tries to CP FD (and stay Falco if he goes DL or something?). Also if I should CP Marth for Yoshis in a bo5 instead of Falco for Yoshis (I'm weak at getting concrete kills off the top with Falco), and for Bo3 what I should go/use when he bans Yoshis (Go Stadium with Falco or Marth or what? Eventually I'll get one of our MMs recorded). Like I need a whole game plan. I've watched Pound V vs Armada and EVO 2013, versus your more recent Marth matches against his Peach: personally I'm starting to not stand the Match up with Falco when Marth can start to make it feel a lot more tranquil to enjoy walling her out. There's also Westball'z take on fighting Armada, which in one set he camped BF's top platform, though more recent ones he just plays it his certain way which I'm not sure how to analyze and/or compare to yours.

Also you seem to use a lot of Shine on shield to FH away vs Armada's Peach (which on the more recent years yielded Uair baits, but at Pound you didn't get much it seems), and with Marth in general versus anyone you like to on Yoshis/BF go to the top platform and WL off and pass through side plat into Fair/Aerial. M2K doesn't quiet use that like you do, instead he usually opts for some kind of less tricky but still surprising FH Late Nairs a lot to catch people off guard while he's near the middle or so of Yoshis.

Have you put any more thought into catching turnips as Falco/Marth? I saw you catch one as Marth and went for a down toss off it into an aerial combo but it didn't work in time. Tai recommends in his guide to always just Z toss it because of Marth's slow throws (and Falcos are pry just a tad faster?).

My controller is totally for Falco though, it's extremely loose in the control stick
https://youtu.be/6dDGnmZbN8I?list=PLovBMkMLex7wYg0HcCVfW1g-cdrSXy51M along with other minor things that make it enjoyable for Falco and lasering but wonkier to control perfect dash dance gaming with. Even my grab button on the controller is like kind of secluded/harder to click (but more ergonomic in a way still), and that's more fine for Falco but this is a character you need it a lot and for CG'ing. I still have no clue how you get any of the newer type controllers to get a control to become loose at all (and mines really loose but in a good way that still registers well, others I've seen of old beat up controllers are loose in a horrible broken controller type of way), as well as how you get the triggers to become weakened via use alone.

There's also the situation with a Spacy/Character ending up knockdowned landing on Yoshi's top platform, and usually you and M2K handle it somewhat similar often: go for a FH Uair (and then M2K likes to DJ after the hit/miss and go for another aerial, not sure what you usually do). PewPewU went over practicing the Jump to DJ Insta-land thing on Yoshis though where u can get a grab off with the 0 impact landing, haven't watched enough games of him though to take notice if he uses that often for knock-down on top plat situations. Also you seem to have taken more akin than M2K to utilize Kadano's thread about SH Uair for Platform knockdowns on Spacies being guaranteed, and opt for that slightly more than him or so.

What are Marth's best options for Falco's Double Ledge laser again?

Are there any Marth things you practice specific to 20XX and its features? Like setting someone to shield and and going for something

Is B-turnaround Side-b (either the single use or the 1-2 of it) a lot slower than using Bair or is it sometimes faster to go for that to turnaround to grab the ledge? M2K always uses Bair.

Throughout the past year(s) you were mentioning in posts and your stream/interviews Sheiks really good (especially with Fair ACs Mix-ups you mentioned or something), now we're starting to see Druggedfox/Plup bring stuff to fruition regarding public opinion (similar to improving on the bars M2K set for Marth prior to you or so) especially Drugged with his now new outlet of Blogposts rather than SB posts apparently.

SH Double Fair is not typically effective if you're close enough to threaten with single Fair. Space farther away it's fine and sometimes up close. Once you internalize why(Fair lag and arc and opponents' punish abilities) you can make SH Double Fair work in ranges where it "shouldn't" but it's honestly much easier to give the advice to not do it since the caveats likely will not apply to most readers.

I didn't know that about SH Fair DJ vs SH WL but it was a feeling I had. Neat.

I'm gonna start using SH Bair DJ WL more but I haven't ironed all that out yet. I don't like the side B variant much since I think that's too much lag plus if I get hit I lose the good side B. Maybe I'll find a use for it though.

All of those edge options are heavily dependent on a lot of things such as your opponents' spacing. Fair is obviously your biggest option you can push with so your opponent can move backward for example. I don't like Nair unless the opponent is offstage or wants to punish Fair lag since first hit Nair can be ASDI'd down. Don't forget about DJ straight to the edge of the stage into Dtilt/jab/Fsmash that's super good too and makes it so people can't just wait for aerial onstage then punish. I need more specific questions about those options because that's a lot of them and I could write a very long post detailing how to handle all of that in various matchups etc lol.

Your question about what to do with Marth isn't one I can definitively answer. I believe sticking to one character is best. If you're going to have a secondary Marth then primarily train him for matchups/stages you want to use him for CPs. That way the most benefit still goes to your main. That said, knowing Marth's rules can be pretty helpful. Swinging less is doing more. Throw them up and kill them. Grabs are the best thing to win neutral with. Marth's sword swings go in arcs and/or have high startup and/or cooldown so Dtilt is used more often since it does not have those weaknesses and is still fairly big. CC is good since his grab range is big. You don't need to go and grab characters who are shielding because if you stand outside their range but can still hit them then they are powerless. Same type of theory applies to stage positioning.
That should get you started.

Vs Peach you just need to learn the matchup I think. If you're not killing Peach off the top on YS then you have an issue landing more clean hits on her and that will be a problem most anywhere. Shoot her when she's grounded, occasionally Bair/Utilt/very occasionally Nair her float stuff but also go to a platform and fall with a laser if she keeps floating and not committing. Then you can go in. Shine grab is great vs her shield, and you can also space aerials pretty safely vs her. When she's high in the air you can threaten Bair and Utilt really easily to force hits. Stay between her and the center of the level and especially use platforms so she can't just airdodge to those for free.
If you don't wanna play the matchup on FD I honestly don't blame you and learning Marth for there seems alright to me. You CAN learn it with Falco but it's a different way to play.

I don't care for turnip catching unless it's Marth on FD. You can just use platforms to avoid them and it's fine. I don't think Marth/Falco can make use of turnips very well.

Vs Falco's DL from the edge you can PS, shield grab between lasers, jab/dtilt/ftilt if you're close, counter the lasers, fall from a platform with Fair. So basically if you're closeish to the edge then Falco shouldn't really be trying it.

I don't practice Marth stuff with 20XX features right now outside of tech chasing spacies/Falcon/Sheik. That's super helpful.

I still think Sheik could do loads more with the Fair for spacing but I can't deny they've done a LOT for the character. Makes me much less interested in playing her now that she's being pushed haha. Part of why I got a Marth back in the day was people said he couldn't make it in the new meta and I thought he was top 2 in the game so I wanted to prove them wrong LOL.

 

[FE_Hector]

I love how everybody underestimates Marth lol. All that crap about his not being technical, being braindead, a crap character who wins by CGs (@EH | Saiblade )... it cracks me up. Imo he's only second in the game to Fox

 

[Shchoo]

I love how everybody underestimates Marth lol. All that crap about his not being technical, being braindead, a crap character who wins by CGs (@EH | Saiblade )... it cracks me up. Imo he's only second in the game to Fox

Agreed, sick of people saying **** like "FSmash more noob". Guess I should work in other options hahaha

 

[FE_Hector]

Agreed, sick of people saying **** like "FSmash more noob". Guess I should work in other options hahaha

If you move back a few pages in the Marth Video Critique thread, then you can actually take a look at my progression over the course of my first month or so of competitive practice. That and @ ChivalRuse 's advice may do you a lot of good.

 

[RittJumper]

anyone here know how to fight ice climbers?

 

[FE_Hector]

anyone here know how to fight ice climbers?

I have to start off with this: NO IDEA. But if I had to make a guess, I would say dtilt them as much as possible, avoid grabbing for fear of Nana punishes. Dtilt and fading fairs would probably be your best friends, as with your dash dance game. Obviously you don't want to get grabbed, so make the best use of whatever space you have. Going over them and hitting them with a dair also may work, but it's a little bit of a stretch. If they spend a lot of time in shield, uncharged neutral B could work. Anybody have legit info?

 

[Nicholas1024]

Fair/Dtilt are indeed your best friends in this matchup. Essentially, whenever the IC's throw out anything that isn't blizzard, you can outrange it with one of those two moves. Retreat to the platforms if you ever feel uncomfortable. This is even better if you're comfortable shield-dropping, as it makes it so much harder for IC's to pressure you on said platform.

Once you get a hit, kill Nana. This is something you can practice alone, just pick a CPU IC's and practice killing her. That said, do not disrespect Sopo, because his down smash can wreck you if your DI is off. (I have personally died to it at 60% from the middle of Dream land because he caught me mid D-tilt.)

The one thing that really concerns me in this matchup is blizzard, since it rivals your range, can be done via desync, and can lead into grab if the IC's player is good enough. I haven't entirely figured out how to deal with that yet.

 

[FlamingForce]

I haven't entirely figured out how to deal with that yet.

Wait it out or, if you get hit, SDI up.

 

[FE_Hector]

This must be what everybody else feels like when trying to figure out how to avoid getting grabbed by Marth lol.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Wait it out or, if you get hit, SDI up.

What if they're doing the desync blizzard wall? That's the version I'm most concerned about.

 

[FE_Hector]

What if they're doing the desync blizzard wall? That's the version I'm most concerned about.

My best guess would be just DI up and away from it. Give yourself a chance to fair if you need it, but just move away from it ASAP

 

[Superior]

What would be the best and most efficient way to practice your falco and marth when you don't have much players to practice with or even face against, also how do you shadow box, im still a little confused about that.

 

[vexoskeleton]

i saw moon platform camp lots against nintendude so he couldnt get free grabs

 

[FE_Hector]

What would be the best and most efficient way to practice your falco and marth when you don't have much players to practice with or even face against, also how do you shadow box, im still a little confused about that.

Most efficient way to practice would be just playing against a lvl1 or lvl4 CPU for the combo game. Don't overextend yourself, and remember that sometimes moves only land because CPUs have weird DI. Still, lvl1 and lvl4 have the closest to human DI. You'll still have to watch out for tricks when fighting actual people though. Never practice against lvl9 CPUs though. They teach you bad habits and have 1-frame reaction times, including grabbing your grab.

Shadowboxing is the other way to practice on your own, though mostly for movement and techskill. Setting yourself up to shadowbox is really simple: plug in 2 controllers, one set to the character you'll be practicing, one set to another random character (I normally have Marth and Falco set up as they're who I use). It's normally best to do a 99-stock match or an infinite time match, but basically you then enter a stage and you'll have a "human" player that's doing nothing, which makes them a "shadow". After that, just go crazy. Go on YouTube and look at Kevin Toy (PPU)s "How I Train By Myself" video for ideas on Marth. It's pretty insightful.

 

[FlamingForce]

What if they're doing the desync blizzard wall? That's the version I'm most concerned about.

Well the thing is, Nana uses blizzard and then Popo has to use a move that isn't blizzard (ice block is a common choice)
as you stated earlier, everything that isn't blizzard is stuffed by dtilt or fair (The only thing that really beats dtilt cleanly is sh fair)

Me personally, I just try to get a read on what the Popo tends to do in between the blizzards and punish that.

UNLESS ofcourse they're using that funky new blizzard wall that Fly Amanita came up with about a year ago

I personally have never met or seen an ics player that actually uses this so I can't tell you from experience on how to combat it, though I imagine that you can either use platforms to move behind them (The only way that he could try to stop this is to make nana do a fh blizzard but that won't lead to a grab or anything big I think.)

Double blizzard walls are decently tricky to execute and the ics player has to decide to go for one pretty quickly in order to get the timing right..I honestly think you can just jab or maybe fsmash popo when he jumps lol, if you read the double blizzard attempt at least. But yeah pure speculation since I haven't faced it.

 

[FE_Hector]

Well the thing is, Nana uses blizzard and then Popo has to use a move that isn't blizzard (ice block is a common choice)
as you stated earlier, everything that isn't blizzard is stuffed by dtilt or fair (The only thing that really beats dtilt cleanly is sh fair)

Me personally, I just try to get a read on what the Popo tends to do in between the blizzards and punish that.

UNLESS ofcourse they're using that funky new blizzard wall that Fly Amanita came up with about a year ago

I personally have never met or seen an ics player that actually uses this so I can't tell you from experience on how to combat it, though I imagine that you can either use platforms to move behind them (The only way that he could try to stop this is to make nana do a fh blizzard but that won't lead to a grab or anything big I think.)

Double blizzard walls are decently tricky to execute and the ics player has to decide to go for one pretty quickly in order to get the timing right..I honestly think you can just jab or maybe fsmash popo when he jumps lol, if you read the double blizzard attempt at least. But yeah pure speculation since I haven't faced it.

My biggest thing with this is that if somebody were to use the blizzard wall and then have Popo do something, I don't feel like most people would waste it in a mere Ice Block. IDK exactly how IC's work, but I'm pretty sure that you could have Popo grab during this time, and then fthrow tech chase for a regrab wobble....

 

[FlamingForce]

My biggest thing with this is that if somebody were to use the blizzard wall and then have Popo do something, I don't feel like most people would waste it in a mere Ice Block. IDK exactly how IC's work, but I'm pretty sure that you could have Popo grab during this time, and then fthrow tech chase for a regrab wobble....

I'm gonna need you to be a bit more specific on that one.

The blizzard wall desync is not complicated, it works by starting a desync and getting Nana to blizzard followed by popo acting with almost anything during the time window where you input another blizzard for Nana in order to make sure that popo himself doesn't use blizzard, how would a grab be problematic there?

Unless you're talking about a scenario where you actually get hit by the blizzard, then yeah he'll grab you and probably wobble you to death if you fail to SDI up. But in order to actually keep the desync going and wrestle stage position away from Marth, ice block is a solid choice.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm gonna need you to be a bit more specific on that one.

The blizzard wall desync is not complicated, it works by starting a desync and getting Nana to blizzard followed by popo acting with almost anything during the time window where you input another blizzard for Nana in order to make sure that popo himself doesn't use blizzard, how would a grab be problematic there?

Unless you're talking about a scenario where you actually get hit by the blizzard, then yeah he'll grab you and probably wobble you to death if you fail to SDI up. But in order to actually keep the desync going and wrestle stage position away from Marth, ice block is a solid choice.

You're entirely correct about what I meant. Can you really SDI up out of the Blizzard if you get hit by it and actually manage to escape it with like a jump? I didn't think that the hitstun would be that low.

 

[FlamingForce]

It's pretty low, 1 blizzard hit I would say is comparable to a Falco laser in terms of hitstun.
Worst case scenario is where the blizzard barely clips you with 1 or 2 hits, in which case SDI won't get you pretty far and you're probably still in quite a lot of danger but other then that blizzard is still a multi-hit move that allows for solid SDI usage.

At the end of the day, you really just don't want to get caught in Blizzard to begin with but when you do, SDI up is probably your best bet, I'm not saying you'll escape punishment but you probably won't get grabbed.

 

[Kopaka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgsh36W9u0o

Who knows, maybe we'll get some insight into the IC's matchup from the man himself. I've personally found it harder than it looks. To me it seems like a matchup that takes a bit of knowledge of the character before fundamentals start coming into play. Only because ICs are such a weird character.

 

[Dr Peepee]

For ICs, it's all about the Dtilt and Fair. You don't ever really need to grab them often unless you're positive they will hit each other.

As long as you're close enough to threaten without getting hit yourself, then you can react to them. This takes practice and I don't have it down myself.

As for blizzard, I just wait that junk out since they can't really come in when they do it and I can just SDI up and out if they hit me with it so I don't get wobbled.

To be more explicit: you don't need DD much in this matchup unless you want to use it fighting sopo. I need to flesh out the specifics of this playing some ICs, but based on what I've seen and theorized it looks good.

 

[Superior]

Most efficient way to practice would be just playing against a lvl1 or lvl4 CPU for the combo game. Don't overextend yourself, and remember that sometimes moves only land because CPUs have weird DI. Still, lvl1 and lvl4 have the closest to human DI. You'll still have to watch out for tricks when fighting actual people though. Never practice against lvl9 CPUs though. They teach you bad habits and have 1-frame reaction times, including grabbing your grab.

Shadowboxing is the other way to practice on your own, though mostly for movement and techskill. Setting yourself up to shadowbox is really simple: plug in 2 controllers, one set to the character you'll be practicing, one set to another random character (I normally have Marth and Falco set up as they're who I use). It's normally best to do a 99-stock match or an infinite time match, but basically you then enter a stage and you'll have a "human" player that's doing nothing, which makes them a "shadow". After that, just go crazy. Go on YouTube and look at Kevin Toy (PPU)s "How I Train By Myself" video for ideas on Marth. It's pretty insightful.

For ICs, it's all about the Dtilt and Fair. You don't ever really need to grab them often unless you're positive they will hit each other.

As long as you're close enough to threaten without getting hit yourself, then you can react to them. This takes practice and I don't have it down myself.

As for blizzard, I just wait that junk out since they can't really come in when they do it and I can just SDI up and out if they hit me with it so I don't get wobbled.

To be more explicit: you don't need DD much in this matchup unless you want to use it fighting sopo. I need to flesh out the specifics of this playing some ICs, but based on what I've seen and theorized it looks good.

For ICs, it's all about the Dtilt and Fair. You don't ever really need to grab them often unless you're positive they will hit each other.

As long as you're close enough to threaten without getting hit yourself, then you can react to them. This takes practice and I don't have it down myself.

As for blizzard, I just wait that junk out since they can't really come in when they do it and I can just SDI up and out if they hit me with it so I don't get wobbled.

To be more explicit: you don't need DD much in this matchup unless you want to use it fighting sopo. I need to flesh out the specifics of this playing some ICs, but based on what I've seen and theorized it looks good.

Thank you, that way is actually quite useful and better, thanks

 

[Kopaka]

"As long as you're close enough to threaten without getting hit yourself," This basically applies to...like..every matchup right? I've just been told similar philosophies like that

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah but that's more reasonable in some matchups than others. Vs Fox for example he can threaten you from very similar positions you can threaten him so you'd have to create extra effort to achieve a good position.

 

[FlamingForce]

For ICs, it's all about the Dtilt and Fair. You don't ever really need to grab them often unless you're positive they will hit each other.

As long as you're close enough to threaten without getting hit yourself, then you can react to them. This takes practice and I don't have it down myself.

As for blizzard, I just wait that junk out since they can't really come in when they do it and I can just SDI up and out if they hit me with it so I don't get wobbled.

To be more explicit: you don't need DD much in this matchup unless you want to use it fighting sopo. I need to flesh out the specifics of this playing some ICs, but based on what I've seen and theorized it looks good.

Do you have any specific thoughts on the double blizzard wall like I showed in the video? It actually allows for these brawl-style blizzard walls and the ics actually can somewhat come in with it, very slowly but surely, if timed correctly there are no real breaks in the wall, there will always be an active blizzard. I would love to hear your thoughts on the technique and what it could do.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd guess you'd want to come in high since you can still hit them or go over top of them. If they start going high in response then you can fake high and FF and perhaps land a Dtilt/Ftilt. I wouldn't know for sure without playing around with it but that's my immediate thought. Platforms make this a lot easier to deal with at any rate and setting it up would be somewhat difficult since many desyncs Marth can chase down.