Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kadano]

@ outofphase : Could you please record / upload some videos? I'd really like to see that.

 

[Bones0]

Are some of the fsmash tipper hitboxes stronger than others?

 

[outofphase]

@Bones - im not too sure, but it seems like they can at least di the higher hitboxes more effectively. I feel like low tipper sends them more horizontally. Maybe because higher tippers are easier to see coming, but I will check it out later

@ Kadano - I dont have a capture card so sadly no. The only video of me online was from before I used any of those ideas or could pivot fsmash reliably. I also didnt have much warmup and my techskill was just sloppy in general compared to now. Its not like Im suddenly a great marth player, but im certain im on the right track now.

@Life- I started out just critiquing peoples play on reddit since I wanted to help out the newer players, and spent alot of time breaking down small amounts of matches. Like I would spend 30 minutes on 30 seconds of play... I would look for a solid hit by either player and then reverse engineer how they accomplished it. I feel like it helped to watch low-level play because it was so basic, but once I started to get good at breaking it down, I moved onto higher level play. I would try and determine how one player gained a small advantage over another from neutral. In order to see where the genesis of their solid hit came from. A solid hit to me is when your positional or timing advantage manifests itself in the form of an attack (the game itself recognizes this as a punish) which ends in further advantage. Aside from that I just learned all of fox's options at different ranges and then worked out how much I was willing to respect them in different situations depending on percent and position. For instance, Sh nair I respected most highly In tons of situations, so I adjusted my DD to avoid sh nair because it has the most range of all his attacks that beat my dtilt. By avoiding sh nair In those circumstances I avoid all his other options for converting upon me as well. if I caught him not moving, I would instantly get closer because for that moment he cant use his momentum to put a sh nair onto me without running forward a bit into what is now my space or moving backward and losing ground. My ideas arent super developed yet but thats how I am trying to look at the game now. I also break down seemingly good decisions and decisions seen as "proper play" or whatever and try to surmise if they are truly the best for the situation and why/why not.I can expound more when im not on mobile lol

 

[Kadano]

@ Bones0 : No, they are all the same.

@ outofphase : Well then, I hope you’ll play at a recording / streaming station on the next smashfest or tournament you are at. =)

 

[outofphase]

So is it simply that they can ready their DI more ably in situations where you hit with a high tipper, or does it send at a different angle?

 

[Kadano]

@ outofphase : All the hitbox properties stay the same, this includes knockback angle.
I guess it is easier to react to the later active frames, the one where it comes out – frame 10 – is just below the threshold where it’s even possible to react. Frames 11-13 are quite feasible to perceive so that you can DI accordingly before the hitlag is over.

 

[Bones0]

So is it simply that they can ready their DI more ably in situations where you hit with a high tipper, or does it send at a different angle?

I think people just don't expect fsmashes when they are directly above Marth's head. They may be expecting a utilt or even something as tame as a DD regrab. It can also be harder to tell which direction they will fsmash, such as when a spacie DIs directly above your uthrow. You could walk left and fsmash right, but just as easily walk right and fsmash left.

 

[AprilShaw]

It always looks like they DI higher to me, but I think that's just because they're higher up when they get hit. There's quite a difference between being on the ground and the top of Marth's hitbox

 

[T-R3X]

cactuar posted this in some thread a couple weeks ago

I always forget that theres a tech called cactus dashing looooool

I actually have a new movement technique in development. Stay tuned.

is this for real?? does anyone know about this??

 

[AprilShaw]

AFAIK cactus dashing is just like wavedash back > dash forward (or maybe the reverse). Nothing too exciting

 

[oukd]

if youre talking about the new movement technique its just

initial dash > run > crouch > walk forward > dashback

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ong_time_mew2dad_and_exmbr_leader_ama/cgb0m4g

 

[AprilShaw]

That's different from cactus dashing, that's the fastliketree grab. That is the new tech that everyone got hyped up about though that Cactuar was talking about.

Also, as Marth, if you want to use that tech to go into a dash dance, try to dash out of the crouch. You have to go from down to forward in one frame, but your dash back will be at full speed, since you won't have walked into it.

 

[tauKhan]

If you dash backwards from crouch, the dash does not cancel momentum like a pivot dash from forward dash does so you will not dash full speed, unless you have completely stopped your momentum before dashing. If you use the tech to quickly dash backwards from run, the dash will be quite slow with marth, since it takes lot of time for crouch to slow down. The walk with cactuars technique doesn't alter momentum at all, since you will be walking ideally only for 1 frame, and it takes several frames for walk out of crouch to give you any speed, since your character will first do some sort of stand up from crouch.

Edit: So you meant doing forward dash out of crouch. I got confused about you talking about 1 frame window for dash. Since you can dash regularly forward from crouch release, there is no 1 frame input restriction for forward dash like there is for backward dash.

 

[AprilShaw]

Either way, if you dash > dash back the momentum is reset and you get a full speed dash. If you walk > dash back, your dash back is significantly slower. Regardless of the mechanics behind it, the effect is the same.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What needs teasing with is simply dashing more slowly. Dash forward and let marth do his normal initial dash animation. During the whole thing you can dash out of again so long as you never go into a run. So, you could do long dashes very quickly or let him get to the near full stop before dashing again. (i.e fox trotting)

 

[SpiderMad]

Just how good are the pros at performing early aerials? How consistently can they get aerials frame perfect after leaving jump squat? What are some of the hardest early aerials, including for Marth, getting his SH Bair Fair?

 

[Xyzz]

Easy tier:
Dair, nair, left facing aerial (pushing the c-stick is far easier than awkwardly pulling it for the right side), right facing aerial while moving that direction (can be done with a/z)

Hard tier:
right facing aerial, while not wanting to move there

Goddammit, how the hell does that work tier:
Uair


Some people are good at it (e.g. S2J), others aren't.

 

[outofphase]

Lol

I think people just don't expect fsmashes when they are directly above Marth's head. They may be expecting a utilt or even something as tame as a DD regrab. It can also be harder to tell which direction they will fsmash, such as when a spacie DIs directly above your uthrow. You could walk left and fsmash right, but just as easily walk right and fsmash left.

Lol @ DD grab being tame. I guess when you consider hitting their feet while above you and hitting their side while you are leaning with a fully extended sword is a pretty massive disparity now that i imagine it. I got the idea because of the tendency to hit with the higher hotboxes out of a CG or through platforms, which seemed to send at a greater angle or have less knockback. Im guessing now that I got that notion because those are telegraphed to a greater extent than more subtle or faster setups which tend to be more horizontal imo along with the difference in placement. I guess its somewhat inconsequential now so whatever.

 

[Bones0]

If I'm facing my opponent, dair, bair, and uair are all really easy for me (I use C-stick, control stick, and control stick respectively). Nair is the hardest, but I've done it so many times it doesn't seem like it anymore. Fair (or bair when I have my back to them) is by far the hardest for me to do, and I'm in the process of learning to SH with the control stick just so I can do get the max fade with an aerial towards my opponent. In the mean time, I just use the control stick+A for it.

 

[AprilShaw]

Just how good are the pros at performing early aerials? How consistently can they get aerials frame perfect after leaving jump squat? What are some of the hardest early aerials, including for Marth, getting his SH Bair Fair?

Changing your grip can make certain aerials really easy. If you claw, they're all super easy, but you can do any of them frame perfect without the claw. Left/down/neutral aerials are the easiest for most people, but up/right can be done with a fast thumb or using the control stick. Like, if I want to do an instant fair while facing to the right, I'll just use the control stick and Z. Up is a bit tougher but it's the same input as a tilt.

 

[Kadano]

If I'm facing my opponent, dair, bair, and uair are all really easy for me (I use C-stick, control stick, and control stick respectively). Nair is the hardest, but I've done it so many times it doesn't seem like it anymore. Fair (or bair when I have my back to them) is by far the hardest for me to do, and I'm in the process of learning to SH with the control stick just so I can do get the max fade with an aerial towards my opponent. In the mean time, I just use the control stick+A for it.

I use thenar grip and replaced the C-stick knob with a control stick knob. That worked pretty fine for me and I can do fully retreating instant short hop fairs and bairs now. They are much easier to the left side than to the right, but both ways are definitely doable. I think I get the jump height reduction about half of the time, but this is too subtle for me to tell during the match.

 

[SpiderMad]

Is there any aerial sequence or test to tell if I'm getting my aerials frame or close to frame perfect? I think CF had something about rising Up-air hitting Kirby or something. Is getting the hitbox on Fair in a SH Bair to Fair the hardest early aerial Marth has? Shouldn't there be a list somewhere of the frame windows/leniency for all the SH double aerial stuff Marth has (Fair to everything, Bair to almost everything, Up-air to DJ/?Waveland?)

@ Kadano Thenar grip? What's Jump height reduction? Why is the control stick cap better, bigger to easily reach?
@ Bones0 How does using tap jump make those easier?

 

[AprilShaw]

For fair, I'd just do a double fair and look at the animation of the second one. For the others... I wouldn't know, sorry

Edit: I have a question. I played a bunch against Abate today and realized I have NO clue what to do against Luigi. Now, a big part of this is him being just a much better player than me (he can beat me consistently as Fox/Falco/Falcon too) but I'm at a loss as to how to handle Luigi. All I can tell so far is that getting him above me is a good thing, but he's so hard to control on the ground. Any tips?

 

[T-R3X]

if youre talking about the new movement technique its just

initial dash > run > crouch > walk forward > dashback

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ong_time_mew2dad_and_exmbr_leader_ama/cgb0m4g

just a fastliketree grab then. dang - i thought it was gonna be something new new
thanks

 

[SpiderMad]

just a fastliketree grab then. dang - i thought it was gonna be something new new
thanks

Are all a bunch of old veterans creating new accounts or something? I barely know about those old videos/techniques

 

[Bones0]

Is there any aerial sequence or test to tell if I'm getting my aerials frame or close to frame perfect? I think CF had something about rising Up-air hitting Kirby or something. Is getting the hitbox on Fair in a SH Bair to Fair the hardest early aerial Marth has? Shouldn't there be a list somewhere of the frame windows/leniency for all the SH double aerial stuff Marth has (Fair to everything, Bair to almost everything, Up-air to DJ/?Waveland?)

@ Kadano Thenar grip? What's Jump height reduction? Why is the control stick cap better, bigger to easily reach?
@ Bones0 How does using tap jump make those easier?

Tap jump makes it easier because I can roll the stick from up to back or forward while C-sticking the aerial. C-sticking ensures I get the maximum drift, and tap jumping allows me to aerial as soon as I leave the ground (because I can't go from Y to C-stick left/right/up in 5 frames).

To tell if I did it fast enough, I like to go for fair waveland. For Falco, I base it off of whether or not I ACed, but I don't think either of these requires frame perfection. I really just compare how fast I'm doing them based on what it looks like. If you get the aerial frame perfect then your jump is actually shortened because the aerial makes gravity kick in sooner, but idk if you can notice that in a SH. You might be able to by seeing how far Marth's head pokes through a side plat or something clever like that.

 

[DJ _ICE]

I have a question. I played a bunch against Abate today and realized I have NO clue what to do against Luigi.

Ooh a matchup I have experience in. So Marth wins this if he stays in control, which -should- be easy given his huge range advantage, but Luigi has a ridiculous wavedash that makes it hard to pin him down sometimes. He's like a Jiggs that is land based and has aerial priority below him rather than behind him. Since he stays on the ground, using d-tilts smartly in neutral to counteract his wavedash weaving leaves him with two bad options: approach from above or deal with the d-tilt. Either way you'll have an easy time doing whatever you want to him. Its good to try and stay in tipper range or even closer for this match-up so he can't easily wavedash in or out.

The punish games are quite similar, but again Marth usually wins. When you have him in the air, his low air and falling speed means that if you're good with up-tilts, getting up-throws and up-airs he probably won't be getting down ever. One gimmick to watch for when you're juggling though is his down-b, it makes him fall surprisingly fast and if you don't watch for it, you'll be the one popped into the air. His only other options are falling n-air which stays out for a long time and also pops you up, and d-air, but given Marth's sword neither should be much too hard to beat. Once you get him offstage, his terrible linear recovery should be no problem to stop.

This is obvious but don't let him control you or get to combo you. His combos are so strong and should get you offstage at medium to high percents. If he manages to get you in an edge-guarding situation Luigi has enough tools to keep you there (falling d-air to intercept your up-b, wavedash off b-air, Marthkiller to up-b or anything else) so try to stay in control the entire match.

Hope this helps!

 

[Xyzz]

Luigi's recovery is anything but linear / easy to edge guard, provided he plays his cards smartly
DJ (+ aerial / fireball) / down b / immediate up-b in combination with his slow falling speed and the super good sweetspot allow for tons of mixups / sometimes even reacting to what the opponent did and choosing something uncovered.

 

[Bones0]

He's like a Jiggs that is land based and has aerial priority below him rather than behind him.

 

[SpiderMad]

How many of you can perform SH Bair Dair?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If I go off a ledge/platform while doing it most of the time. I won't say always since there is always some inherently built in failure rate on my execution But, otherwise, I didn't know there was enough time to even get a SH bair -> dair from the stage.

 

[T-R3X]

I've been playing around with trying to ledge cancel dairs to tech chase on platforms. Any thoughts?
here's an example (at 1:36): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87HTBbrmQj0

 

[SpiderMad]

If I go off a ledge/platform while doing it most of the time. I won't say always since there is always some inherently built in failure rate on my execution But, otherwise, I didn't know there was enough time to even get a SH bair -> dair from the stage.

I have a belief that people, including pros, can't come close to frame perfect aerials.

 

[Kadano]

How many of you can perform SH Bair Dair?

Without a double jump in between? That’s impossible if you want to stay on the same flat platform you short hopped from.
If you mean sh bair → dj dair, I can even do that on my laggy Dolphin setup. Or do you refer to actually hitting somebody with it? It’s a true combo out of uthrow on Falco, probably some others as well.

 

[SpiderMad]

Without a double jump in between? That’s impossible if you want to stay on the same flat platform you short hopped from.
If you mean sh bair → dj dair, I can even do that on my laggy Dolphin setup. Or do you refer to actually hitting somebody with it? It’s a true combo out of uthrow on Falco, probably some others as well.

Instead of turning Melee Dolphin on I was using Project M with buffer to test frame perfect aerials, they're big on saying they're almost exact replicas of the character but I guess this doesn't hold true for SH Bair Dair for some reason: in PM you can get the Bair and then still have enough air time to get the Dair hitbox out.

 

[Bones0]

Instead of turning Melee Dolphin on I was using Project M with buffer to test frame perfect aerials, they're big on saying they're almost exact replicas of the character but I guess this doesn't hold true for SH Bair Dair for some reason: in PM you can get the Bair and then still have enough air time to get the Dair hitbox out.

LOL That made my day.

MD/VA constantly jokes about how P:M devs insist "it's the exact same as Melee!"

 

[Xyzz]

That momentum applying one frame later than in melee thing is already enough to make the two feel nothing alike. My pm falco misses like half of my fastfalls :D

 

[Kadano]

Instead of turning Melee Dolphin on I was using Project M with buffer to test frame perfect aerials, they're big on saying they're almost exact replicas of the character but I guess this doesn't hold true for SH Bair Dair for some reason: in PM you can get the Bair and then still have enough air time to get the Dair hitbox out.

Please don’t ever use P:M as a Melee reference again.

 

[net1234]

I'd love to see a detailed analysis of tricks marth can do on various stages. does this exist somewhere? like covering the top platform on dreamland or like double edge cancels on yoshi's off the top and side platforms.

 

[Deleted member]

even though marth is highly based on positioning, it's much less about specific stage tricks so much as it is marth working with the stage. for example, you want to use marth's throws as your baseline conversion to put the opponent into positional advantage, but how you do this is highly situational based on the grab. it's perfectly defensible when you grab at the edge to forward throw expecting bad DI, to downthrow to put the opponent off stage, to upthrow to put the opponent above you, or to backthrow to put the opponent on a platform above you. this is almost strictly unique to this character though, so it might take some experience to figure out which option is truly the best. generally speaking, putting the opponent anywhere they can't shield is your first priority, so throwing the opponent up is always reasonable, as is throwing an opponent off the edge immediately in most cases. you want to use your position to set up situations where your sword moves are going to let you control your opponent until you can lead into a KO. it's okay to just be mindful of the stage and your position without really needing specific stage tricks.