Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kadano]

I'm running simple tests with Dolphin right now and it seems Bones is correct here. Assuming this situation: Marth dthrows Falco at 0%, Falco doesn't do anything until he reaches the latest frame he can rejump and still grab the ledge, Marth will hit his head with dtilt if he times it correctly. Because dtilt is only active for 3 frames and Falco's vulnerability to it lasts just 2-6 frames, Marth's timing needs to be quite precise.

From the moment Falco starts his rejump until he grabs the ledge, 22 frames pass (he's invincible on frame 23). Because Marth's dtilt comes out on frame 7, he needs to react within 15 frames.

Because Falco falls absurdly fast in his late falling animation, there might be a DI angle that gives him a better sweetspot rejump that keeps him safe. I'll do some more tests and report back in with pics and all.

 

[MT_]

Oh. Then I am mistaken. And my approach to gimping Falco is about to make a huge change.

Thanks for finding this stuff out.


Can you elaborate on what you mean by Falco's vulnerability lasting 2-6 frames? What is the reason for the lower and upper bound of this range? If Falco is only vulnerable for 2 frames then the precision required is pretty demanding, but 6 frames seems like a large enough window that any decent Marth should be hitting him out of his double jump. And there are spacing things to take into consideration too I would assume, based on the slight angle of Marth's dtilt (like how far away can Falco be from the ledge to snap to it, and if Marth is right at the ledge maybe hugging the wall with your DJ as Falco may make it easier to avoid the dtilt).

 

[Kadano]

@MT: Assuming Falco is falling down after he got dthrown, there is always one frame on which his rejump will sweetspot (stay as low as possible but still grab the ledge). Now the thing is, Falco falls very fast during the sweetspot frames, so depending on how he DIed the dthrow, he will end up at different heights for his sweetspot rejump. Meaning that at a given percenteage point before dthrow, holding different angles on the control stick will give Falco better or worse sweetspot rejumps because the height difference between two frames is pretty large. Thus, finding the perfect sweetspot requires the Falco to not only time his rejump frame-perfect, but also DI the right way (which depends on his %) before he rejumps.

If Falco does not DI the dthrow at 0% at all, his "sweetspot" (quotation marks because there are sweeter spots, but they are not accessible at this point because the DI was imperfect) is on frame 39 (according to debug mode's frame counter, so it's probably frame 40 actually) will leave him with 6 frames vulnerability to Marth's lowest dtilt hitbubble. Had he waited one frame longer before he rejumped, he would have missed the ledge just by the skin of his teeth.

If Falco DIes the dthrow straight down at 0%, his sweetspot is on frame 38 (again, according to debug mode). It will be just at the perfect height to do a true sweetspot rejump. He will be so low that his hurtbubbles evade the lowest dtilt hitbox on all frames save one.


Generally speaking: If Falco spaces his fall perfectly, he can still be hit by Marth's dtilt. But there is only one frame where this is possible, and collision on that frame heavily depends on the characters' spacing, so it's possible for the Falco to move forward or backward during his rejump to escape Marth's lowest hitbubble. It is not possible for the Marth to stand at a spot where he can cover all of Falco's post-rejump spacing options.

Pictures are in the spoiler (.png, 8 files, 560 KB total)

Spoiler

Falco has DIed the dthrow down all the time. This is the frame he has to jump to sweetspot the ledge perfectly.

Here you can see the hitbubble of Marth's lowest dtilt hitbubble versus Falco's highest, and thus worst, position assuming a perfect sweetspot. The horizontal overlapping is very small, so Falco can easily escape the hitbubble both left and right.
The red rightangle in front of Falco's face is his ledge grab box. As soon as it overlaps with the ledge and Falco is falling, he will grab the ledge. Thus, it's obvious Falco could have done a backward rejump, not get hit be dtilt and still grabbed the ledge. (This is not just sepculation, I've also tested this and he really didn't get hit)

That's the first frame Falco might be hittable on imperfect sweetspots. Because he's doing a perfect sweetspot here, he can't be hit. The red line is the lowest possible hitting range of Marth's dtilt.

This is the frame Falco is always vulnerable when sweetspotting, regardless of perfect/imperfect. Like I wrote above, this doesn't mean he'll definitely get hit if the Marth gets his timing and spacing right, because Falco can angle his rejump after Marth has already committed.

All four of the above frames Falco might be vulnerable if he's doing an imperfect sweetspot.

This is the next frame where Falco has grabbed the ledge.

Is it necessary for Falco to DI the dthrow so that he can perform a perfect rejump? No. Instead of focussing on DI, he can also do a shine stall to decrease his falling speed. Then, he can (relatively) easily choose the correct time to perform a perfect sweetspot rejump.

Against Falcos who always do their rejump spacing the same way, it's possible to hit them with dtilt, even if they do a perfect sweetspot rejump. However, if they react to your positioning, they can and will move around your dtilt and 22 frames are not enough for you to react, walk to the right place and dtilt. In theory, positioning yourself close to the ledge and performing a dash left to pivot dtilt would work, but I doubt this is humanly possible.

In my opinion, Falco wins this situation. Alternatives to dtilt are risky — wavedash back to grab the ledge leaves you vulnerable to rejump dair, and so does going offstage. I don't see a way to get more than a 50% chance on killing from a dthrow

 

[t-iceman]

I've tried it a million times. It doesn't work.

It definitely works lmao i know for a fact that you can djump to the edge safely without getting hit by dtilt otto does it all the time, if you up b next to the edge however you can get hit

EDIT: @Kadano does the number of frames to sweetspot change if falco is shinestalling??

 

[Tarv]

Is wavedash back dtilt as good as I think it is in order to deal with aggressive opponents or am I just fooling myself? Seems to be very useful in staying out of Peach's dsmash range for example and it generally just helps deal with head-on, aggro style approaches. The WD back seems like it would be extremely useful as a retreat/defensive tool if your plan to go on the offensive needs to change and if nothing else can act as a feint.

I would, however, like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

[Strong Badam]

wd back -> stuff is generally usable but sub-optimal. you're forfeiting stage position in hopes of converting on a hard read on your opponent's approach when that's really not necessary with marth. dash back -> punish should be relevant in most situations where you'd want to, and is less committal.

 

[MT_]

EDIT: @Kadano does the number of frames to sweetspot change if falco is shinestalling??

I'd like to know this too. It seems like it should since Falco's fall speed slows down to 0 once the shine starts and then the available heights for him to jump from are higher.

 

[Tarv]

wd back -> stuff is generally usable but sub-optimal. you're forfeiting stage position in hopes of converting on a hard read on your opponent's approach when that's really not necessary with marth. dash back -> punish should be relevant in most situations where you'd want to, and is less committal.

Hmm, interesting counter-point and it makes sense. The dash back--> punish string would probably work better in dealing with poor approaches and as a defensive tool anyways. Because like you said, reading is hard. Thank you SB!

 

[MookieRah]

@Umbreon
Oh words, how they can mean many things. Ok, now that I know what you actually mean with your philosophy, I agree 100%. Honestly, it's almost the exact same message that Day9 talks about with StarCraft. Go for the small victories and play safe. I was thinking that's what you meant at first, but then your other posts made me question that.

On another note, I think my edge guarding is more or less stuck in '06 and I like all this stuff I'm hearing in regards to the Falco matchup. Are there any threads I could look up that go over a nice general list of Marth's current options?

 

[Kadano]

It definitely works lmao i know for a fact that you can djump to the edge safely without getting hit by dtilt otto does it all the time, if you up b next to the edge however you can get hit

This is true, again it requires Falco having both correct timing and spacing.

EDIT: @Kadano does the number of frames to sweetspot change if falco is shinestalling??

Compared to rejumping straight of your fall? Yes, in most cases, unless you would have gotten to the correct height anyway, it changes the number from 2-6 to 1. If you look at the penultimate picture in my previous post's spoiler, you can see Falco's ledge grab box colliding with the ledge as low as possible. This is the height Falco has only one frame vulnerability with, and again only on a small part of his hurtbubble, so spacing makes him effectively unhittable.

I'd like to know this too. It seems like it should since Falco's fall speed slows down to 0 once the shine starts and then the available heights for him to jump from are higher.

True.

 

[Druggedfox]

WD back is pretty damn useful vs falco since you don't always have the freedom to dash.
WD back is also like half the reason fox isn't broken.

Pretty much WD back, while it does forfeit stage position (and often you can just replace it wish dashing back) is actually a really good (and often necessary) tool vs. the two characters widely accepted as the best in the game

 

[Bones0]

@MT: Assuming Falco is falling down after he got dthrown, there is always one frame on which his rejump will sweetspot (stay as low as possible but still grab the ledge). Now the thing is, Falco falls very fast during the sweetspot frames, so depending on how he DIed the dthrow, he will end up at different heights for his sweetspot rejump. Meaning that at a given percenteage point before dthrow, holding different angles on the control stick will give Falco better or worse sweetspot rejumps because the height difference between two frames is pretty large. Thus, finding the perfect sweetspot requires the Falco to not only time his rejump frame-perfect, but also DI the right way (which depends on his %) before he rejumps.

If Falco does not DI the dthrow at 0% at all, his "sweetspot" (quotation marks because there are sweeter spots, but they are not accessible at this point because the DI was imperfect) is on frame 39 (according to debug mode's frame counter, so it's probably frame 40 actually) will leave him with 6 frames vulnerability to Marth's lowest dtilt hitbubble. Had he waited one frame longer before he rejumped, he would have missed the ledge just by the skin of his teeth.

If Falco DIes the dthrow straight down at 0%, his sweetspot is on frame 38 (again, according to debug mode). It will be just at the perfect height to do a true sweetspot rejump. He will be so low that his hurtbubbles evade the lowest dtilt hitbox on all frames save one.


Generally speaking: If Falco spaces his fall perfectly, he can still be hit by Marth's dtilt. But there is only one frame where this is possible, and collision on that frame heavily depends on the characters' spacing, so it's possible for the Falco to move forward or backward during his rejump to escape Marth's lowest hitbubble. It is not possible for the Marth to stand at a spot where he can cover all of Falco's post-rejump spacing options.

Pictures are in the spoiler (.png, 8 files, 560 KB total)

Spoiler

Falco has DIed the dthrow down all the time. This is the frame he has to jump to sweetspot the ledge perfectly.

Here you can see the hitbubble of Marth's lowest dtilt hitbubble versus Falco's highest, and thus worst, position assuming a perfect sweetspot. The horizontal overlapping is very small, so Falco can easily escape the hitbubble both left and right.
The red rightangle in front of Falco's face is his ledge grab box. As soon as it overlaps with the ledge and Falco is falling, he will grab the ledge. Thus, it's obvious Falco could have done a backward rejump, not get hit be dtilt and still grabbed the ledge. (This is not just sepculation, I've also tested this and he really didn't get hit)

That's the first frame Falco might be hittable on imperfect sweetspots. Because he's doing a perfect sweetspot here, he can't be hit. The red line is the lowest possible hitting range of Marth's dtilt.

This is the frame Falco is always vulnerable when sweetspotting, regardless of perfect/imperfect. Like I wrote above, this doesn't mean he'll definitely get hit if the Marth gets his timing and spacing right, because Falco can angle his rejump after Marth has already committed.

All four of the above frames Falco might be vulnerable if he's doing an imperfect sweetspot.

This is the next frame where Falco has grabbed the ledge.

Is it necessary for Falco to DI the dthrow so that he can perform a perfect rejump? No. Instead of focussing on DI, he can also do a shine stall to decrease his falling speed. Then, he can (relatively) easily choose the correct time to perform a perfect sweetspot rejump.

Against Falcos who always do their rejump spacing the same way, it's possible to hit them with dtilt, even if they do a perfect sweetspot rejump. However, if they react to your positioning, they can and will move around your dtilt and 22 frames are not enough for you to react, walk to the right place and dtilt. In theory, positioning yourself close to the ledge and performing a dash left to pivot dtilt would work, but I doubt this is humanly possible.

In my opinion, Falco wins this situation. Alternatives to dtilt are risky — wavedash back to grab the ledge leaves you vulnerable to rejump dair, and so does going offstage. I don't see a way to get more than a 50% chance on killing from a dthrow

It definitely works lmao i know for a fact that you can djump to the edge safely without getting hit by dtilt otto does it all the time, if you up b next to the edge however you can get hit

EDIT: @Kadano does the number of frames to sweetspot change if falco is shinestalling??

Amazing post, but idk how you came to the conclusion that Falco wins that situation. lol Doing a frame perfect DJ to the ledge is really hard in its own right, and I don't really believe Falco can get around a proper dtilt. I feel like if you had Marth further back in that first pic so that only the biggest bubble was covering the ledge, there's no way Falco could get near it. If you love doing this AR stuff and have some spare time, you should look into the claim that grabbing the ledge from different states changes how fast you can ledgedash. Sveet posted something from a Japanese smasher a while back that claimed if you grab the ledge from a DJ, your collision box was smaller than if you grabbed it from an up-B, which allowed you to airdodge onto the stage sooner.

It definitely works lmao i know for a fact that you can djump to the edge safely without getting hit by dtilt otto does it all the time, if you up b next to the edge however you can get hit

EDIT: @Kadano does the number of frames to sweetspot change if falco is shinestalling??

Well first of all, you're probably just missing the timing... And secondly, are you talking about his Falco? Because Fox can sweetspot from a little further away.

Is wavedash back dtilt as good as I think it is in order to deal with aggressive opponents or am I just fooling myself? Seems to be very useful in staying out of Peach's dsmash range for example and it generally just helps deal with head-on, aggro style approaches. The WD back seems like it would be extremely useful as a retreat/defensive tool if your plan to go on the offensive needs to change and if nothing else can act as a feint.

I would, however, like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I think if you're going to WD back you might as well look for a grab instead of a dtilt unless you have a Fox rushing you down with run up shines/grab/usmash or a Falco SHLing towards you.

 

[knightpraetor]

I think if you're going to WD back you might as well look for a grab instead of a dtilt unless you have a Fox rushing you down with run up shines/grab/usmash or a Falco SHLing towards you.

Agreed. Also, it was weird to begin with cause the post made wd and dtilt into an option, when in reality you wd and then have plenty of options to choose from there. So his post was basically, WD back is good, which i think most people would agree with

 

[Tarv]

Hooray, people are being helpful even if there seems to be conflicting viewpoints in just how good WD back is. It does sacrifice a bit of stage for a hard read but at the same time it does seem to open up a myraid of options other than just dtilt; I just remember PP mentioning that dtilt is one of Marth's better tools for dealing with approaches. Thanks again for the advice, keep it coming please.

 

[Kadano]

Amazing post, but idk how you came to the conclusion that Falco wins that situation. lol Doing a frame perfect DJ to the ledge is really hard in its own right

Assuming both players do everything correct, Falco can get to the ledge safely and Marth can do nothing about it except maybe (depending if your reaction time is godlike or just average) a pivot dtilt, which imho is much, much harder to do than a frame perfect rejump plus DIing according to Marth's spacing.

To back up my claim that sweetspot DJ is easy:
1. Falco can do a shine to slow himself down, this makes the timing window much larger (at least 4 frames, depending on whether you shine just at the right frame or some frames too early): Of course shine stall gives Marth more time, but what can he do? If Marth runs off or edgehogs, Falco can airdodge on the stage.
2. To find out how good you are at frame perfect DJs, go to YS with Mario and perform no-impact landings by standing on the top platform, dropping down and DJing on frame 17 (16 according to debug mode's Y+down if you have access to it). If you do it just at the right frame, Mario will perform a very early no-impact landing. Now I haven't practiced this much, but after trying it a few times, I was able to do it three times in a row. I'm certain with some practice, being able to DJ frame perfect consistently is possible, especially if using the shine stall to make it even easier.

I don't really believe Falco can get around a proper dtilt. I feel like if you had Marth further back in that first pic so that only the biggest bubble was covering the ledge, there's no way Falco could get near it.

You mean like this?

For reference, here is the same frame with Marth having done a perfectly spaced pivot dtilt:

Now here's Falco having angled his DJ (used the same save state as in the two previous images, so all aerial control deviation is post-jump) backwards for 11 frames:

Yes, he does grab the ledge (5 frames later). You can clearly see he is out of Marth's dtilt reach if Marth's anticipates a neutral double jump.

To understand this situation, you need to be aware of all decisions that are possible. First, we need to discern between decisions/commitments before Falco's DJ and between decisions/commitments after his DJ.
1. Before Falco's DJ, Marth needs to choose his facing and positioning.
1.1 Facing: If he chooses to stay facing the stage (back towards Falco), he has the advantage of being able to perform a fast edgehog (and to counter without his "achilles heel", but I don't consider this a major argument). The downside is that he is not able to move closer to the ledge and still perform a dtilt that hits Falco if he goes all the way right. This is because the turn-around animation required before being able to walk to the right takes so long. (To be exact: If Marth starts walking just when Falco DJs – assuming a reaction time of one frame – Marth would be able to start his walk animation just when he already had to dtilt)
Dashing to the right out of the face-left stance is an option too, but only if you are able to do a pivot dtilt out of a dashdance, which is even harder than a "simple" pivot dtilt.
If Marth chooses to face right (towards the ledge), he has the advantage of being able to cover Falco if he is drawing his DJ to the right by walking towards him. The downside is that if Falco goes further left than where dtilt could hit him from where Marth is standing after his turnaround animation, Marth won't be able to hit him with dtilt in time, unless he is able to do a pivot dtilt.
1.2 Positioning: If Marth stands just where he would end up if he did a normal ledge-getup, he can hit Falco on his perfect DJ vulnerability frame if Falco is going all the way right.
If Marth stands further west, like in most of the screenshots I posted, he will only be able to hit a Falco going east if he is facing Falco already and walks towards him on reaction. Dashdance pivot dtilt is possible too, but again, I doubt there will ever be somebody who can do this.

Falco only needs to choose whether he DJs out of his fall or out of his shine. Apart from it being easier with shine, this doesn't make a difference in the options available afterwards. He can already choose to DI east or west, but it's not necessary.

2. After Falco's DJ, Falco needs to chose whether to move it close to the ledge or away from the ledge. Doing so is rather easy: A) If he sees Marth standing right, he moves left. B) If he sees Marth standing left, he moves right. C) If Marth is standing rather central, Falco moves in the opposite direction Marth is facing.

For Marth, things are again way more complicated. After Falco's DJ, he has 22 spare frames to do a dtilt. Dtilt comes out on frame 7, that leaves him 15 frames to maneuvre himself around and commit to a certain position. Now Marth's actions heavily depend on when Falco has to commit. The bad news for Marth is: Falco can commit as late as on the first frame of Marth's dtilt.

If that's unclear, here are some pictures:

The frame Marth presses dtilt.

If Falco doesn't hold back/forward from the previous picture's point on, he gets hit. If he holdss left, he gets hit too, but just barely.

If he holds right, he doesn't get hit.
If the same situation would have been made with Falco being the slightest increment more left, he could have evaded left, but not right. Then again, Falco players won't start moving just at the frame Marth presses dtilt, but probably a bit earlier, so if they know their spacing, they can always evade simply by reacting to Marth's positioning.

Now we can see, Falco has a very dynamic spacing that allows him to go where Marth can't reach him. Except with pivot dtilt. So is pivot dtilt worth mastering? I don't think so, because from the frame Marth starts to dash until dtilt's hitbubbles come out, it's 10 frames or more, depending on how far Marth needs to move. Marth's dashing is something his opponent can easily recognize and react accordingly. Marth dashes left? I (playing Falco) hold right. That's it.
On the other hand, Marth has a very hard time reacting to Falco's spacing. Recognizing the direction Falco is going is very hard if not impossible. Falco doesn't even need to alternate between Fjump and Bjump; with Fjump alone he can go both all the way right and close to the ledge.


TL;DR: If Falco knows what to look for and has a fast reaction time, he will never get hit by Marth's dtilt.

If you love doing this AR stuff and have some spare time, you should look into the claim that grabbing the ledge from different states changes how fast you can ledgedash. Sveet posted something from a Japanese smasher a while back that claimed if you grab the ledge from a DJ, your collision box was smaller than if you grabbed it from an up-B, which allowed you to airdodge onto the stage sooner.

Sounds interesting, I'll look into it. Does this apply for Falco only?

 

[Bones0]

TL;DR: If Falco knows what to look for and has a fast reaction time, he will never get hit by Marth's dtilt.


Sounds interesting, I'll look into it. Does this apply for Falco only?

Okay, thanks, I guess I'll have to give this a try. So all I have to do is react to Marth's spacing and either DJ sweetspot close to the ledge or DJ back to stay out of dtilt's range? It looks like grabbing the ledge would require you to drift in immediately after the DJ back (3rd pic), but I guess I could always Firebird anyway.

Idk if it only applies to Falco, that's just the character that was used in the pics Toph posted (not Sveet, whoops lol). He said Falcon is the bottom character, but the 4 characters in the img are definitely Falco, so idk if he accidentally cut Falcon out or what. Here's the actual post:

Hey so this is cool as ****

http://smacom2.mysns.tv/img.php?filename=dc_1327433_1_1317148608.jpg&m=pc

I was talking to a Japanese smasher earlier who knows a lot about frames and weird gameplay mechanics and ****, and he said this is a way to literally improve Fox's/Falco's (and a few other characters') ledgedash.

Far as I understand it (have yet to test myself) if you grab the ledge from a double jump (as opposed to from an up-B or side-B) your hitbox literally shrinks (note the size of the diamonds on the left vs. the right; on the right, they're somewhat cut off on the bottom) and you can input your airdodge up to 2 frames earlier during your ledgedash, because your feet's hitbox essentially isn't there. So instead of getting caught on the ledge and dying, you make it up to the stage quicker.

The implication here is that even if you don't care about 2 extra frames of invincibility, it makes not accidentally SD'ing fairly easier.

The bottom character is Falcon, who gets this weird property not after a double jump but after grabbing the ledge with an up-B. Apparently his ledgedash can improve by up to 5 frames but I don't play Falcon and re-grabbing the ledge with an up-B isn't as simple as re-grabbing the ledge with a double jump so I don't really care about him haha.

I guess the thing to do would be to grab the ledge again with a double jump before ledgedashing on.

Also, this may or may not be (need to test further) related to Doraki instant walljump, where double-jumping to grab the ledge puts you in a strange state. Then again you can Doraki instant walljump after grabbing the ledge with a firefox stall, so maybe it's different.

Incidentally the pictured character is Falco but from what my Japanese friend tells me this works with Fox too.

 

[Kadano]

Okay, thanks, I guess I'll have to give this a try. So all I have to do is react to Marth's spacing and either DJ sweetspot close to the ledge or DJ back to stay out of dtilt's range?

Yes. You can cover both east and west options even if you do a forward DJ, so you have lots of time to react to Marth's spacing.

It looks like grabbing the ledge would require you to drift in immediately after the DJ back (3rd pic), but I guess I could always Firebird anyway.

You sure could, but like I wrote, Falco grabs the ledge 5 frames later anyway (unless he DIs away during these 5 frames). Also I'm not sure about Firebird being safe with dtilt's fast IASA frames and Firebird elevating Falco a little. I can't check right now because I'm not at home so this is only a guess.

Idk if it only applies to Falco, that's just the character that was used in the pics Toph posted (not Sveet, whoops lol). He said Falcon is the bottom character, but the 4 characters in the img are definitely Falco, so idk if he accidentally cut Falcon out or what. Here's the actual post:

Toph's text is confusing. He's saying hitbox but actually refers to the character-stage collision quadrilateral.
The picture looks very promising though, thank you. I'll look into it tomorrow. Do you know the name of the Japanese smasher? I think it would be best to contact him directly.

 

[Bones0]

Yes. You can cover both east and west options even if you do a forward DJ, so you have lots of time to react to Marth's spacing.


You sure could, but like I wrote, Falco grabs the ledge 5 frames later anyway (unless he DIs away during these 5 frames). Also I'm not sure about Firebird being safe with dtilt's fast IASA frames and Firebird elevating Falco a little. I can't check right now because I'm not at home so this is only a guess.


Toph's text is confusing. He's saying hitbox but actually refers to the character-stage collision quadrilateral.
The picture looks very promising though, thank you. I'll look into it tomorrow. Do you know the name of the Japanese smasher? I think it would be best to contact him directly.

I don't know, unfortunately.

 

[Stylez]

The amazing Marth d-smash: Tipper kills Sheik at 130% on Dreamland. The idea is to try to get them to shield DI in

 

[Tarv]

Warning: Tiny minor self-loathing rant to follow.

I hate dropping combos so much, especially when they're exciting as the Ken combo. I keep either whiffing on the dair because they're too far down or hitting the dair but hitting with the middle of my sword and having them survive. Then there's the times where I'll fair, fair go for a dair... then accidentally put in another fair. So I go to these boards and find the topic titled "How to properly Ken combo" and think to myself, "Ok fair, fair, jump pull back dair" Alright that sounds easy enough. So I go to practice it and the same problems happen. Perhaps I'm hitting with the wrong part of the sword? Should I FF the fair before the dair? Am I not doing the dair fast enough after the final fair? Ugh, it's so frustrating knowing that you're about to take a stock from someone and then dropping it on what should have been the final hit.

Oh, and I also hate screwing up on the ledge. I never seem to be able to do what I want to. I want to WD from the ledge, I just end up jumping. I want to roll, I end up doing the slow climb animation. Either that or I'll just SD. I mean I can work the ledge pretty well when no one is there. Like between stocks I can WD from ledge, roll, attack with no problem at all. But as soon as it matters I end up screwing up somehow.


tldr; I wish I wasn't terrible at this game at all the wrong times.

 

[Ziodyne]

Play more people. Relax on the Ken combos. Dair has a stupid tipper hitbox. Also remember that whether or not you hit the ken combo, they're offstage and you're Marth. This is all execution stuff, and if you miss a ken combo, be actively thinking as to why you missed one so you won't miss the next one. Also note that in many cases, you can land a fair -> fall down -> dair instead of a fair -> jump -> dair. Keep that in mind when you think a person is too low to go for a jump -> dair and just fall on them with a dair.

Practice ledgedashes. You think you're completely fine in training mode, but are you really as fast as you wanna be with them? Can you do a bunch of fancy technical shenanigans on-stage, accidently fall off a platform and onto the ledge, and ledge WD instantaneous and perfectly? If you can learn to ledge WD consistently and quickly in under any circumstance you put yourself through in tech skill practice, I'm sure you will be able to hit those wavedashes even under high pressure situations. 100% technical consistency is something everyone is working towards though, so just take every miss as another sign to drill more.

tldr; Practice makes perfect.

 

[Tarv]

Thanks ziodyne. I definitely appreciate the advice

I'll keep everything you said in mind. While I wont lie about being 100% technically consistent during training mode I'm certainly more consistent with my tech skill than when I'm playing against someone. This might, sound like an excuse or what have you, but I seem to just start doing stupid stuff during matches. Missing things I would never miss, make decisions I know are wrong but I do anyways for some reason. It's like my tech skill and knowledge of the game fall through during matches and my Marth devolves into, "Keep fsmashing, that'll show em" or "yes, keep rolling that will confuse them to death" I suppose all that can be fixed by playing more people and practicing more. Just frustrating going through a match and knowing that you could've played so much better. I'm sure everyone who has ever played smash has felt this way at one time or another though so it's nice to know I'm not completely alone in that. Thinking about it though, I think something I can work on is not getting so frustrated with my mistakes during matches. I mean I can scrutinize and be frustrated after a match but it seems like getting that frustrated during a match just ends up making me play worse. But again, you're right: practice makes perfect.

 

[FrootLoop]

significantly worse execution during matches compared to solo training usually means you still need to focus in order to execute. When you try to focus on the opponent you give up focusing on your execution and so you mess up. You need to get to the point where execution is mindless.

edit: only play as fast as you can execute

 

[Tarv]

Hmm, interesting point and I definitely agree. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

 

[CyberZixx]

I am new to this at well and know that feeling. I found myself doing better when I hold out on the ken combo's and SH double fairs. Fundamentals are far more important. I was trying to run before I could walk.

 

[Tarv]

More good advice. Thanks.

 

[Strong Badam]

Kadano: try to avoid referring to aerial drift as "DI" since it has absolutely nothing to do with Directional Influence. otherwise, good work.

 

[Bones0]

Warning: Tiny minor self-loathing rant to follow.

I hate dropping combos so much, especially when they're exciting as the Ken combo. I keep either whiffing on the dair because they're too far down or hitting the dair but hitting with the middle of my sword and having them survive. Then there's the times where I'll fair, fair go for a dair... then accidentally put in another fair. So I go to these boards and find the topic titled "How to properly Ken combo" and think to myself, "Ok fair, fair, jump pull back dair" Alright that sounds easy enough. So I go to practice it and the same problems happen. Perhaps I'm hitting with the wrong part of the sword? Should I FF the fair before the dair? Am I not doing the dair fast enough after the final fair? Ugh, it's so frustrating knowing that you're about to take a stock from someone and then dropping it on what should have been the final hit.

Oh, and I also hate screwing up on the ledge. I never seem to be able to do what I want to. I want to WD from the ledge, I just end up jumping. I want to roll, I end up doing the slow climb animation. Either that or I'll just SD. I mean I can work the ledge pretty well when no one is there. Like between stocks I can WD from ledge, roll, attack with no problem at all. But as soon as it matters I end up screwing up somehow.


tldr; I wish I wasn't terrible at this game at all the wrong times.

The trick is to up-B instead of dair. :D

 

[Tarv]

I like doing that a lot actually. Was working on trying to do the run off stage fair to up-b on fox when he's trying to recover below the stage. I did it a few times but it's harder than people make it look for some reason. Keep getting burned.

Ah well, I'll just have to keep learning

 

[Tee ay eye]

The trick is to up-B instead of dair. :D

**** you

sacrilege

 

[MookieRah]

So this whole time I've been working on prepping for this small gaming convention tourny expecting that I would have no competition, but hoping someone in the Swedish smash community would show up. Well I got my wish, as Randomness and his entourage of friends came down. I actually didn't get destroyed too badly when I faced him in semi-finals. Not bad for a half-retired out of practice smash old timer I think, especially considering the dude was part of Armada's crew and played him quite often. I owe it to all the good advice I got here too, cause I would have been completely 4 stocked hardcore style without it.

 

[knightpraetor]

so I finally have a chance to play marth vs samus some, so i was wondering if anyone would recommend some sets. M2k vs plup maybe? i can't find it on youtube. I'm looking for some solid edgeguarding ideas/demonstration

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

significantly worse execution during matches compared to solo training usually means you still need to focus in order to execute. When you try to focus on the opponent you give up focusing on your execution and so you mess up. You need to get to the point where execution is mindless.

edit: only play as fast as you can execute

Seems like you would continue to get stuck in that situation of poor execution when playing faster if you didn't try to play faster than you are accustom too.

 

[Kadano]

so I finally have a chance to play marth vs samus some, so i was wondering if anyone would recommend some sets. M2k vs plup maybe? i can't find it on youtube. I'm looking for some solid edgeguarding ideas/demonstration

CT Mew2king vs. Esam
Shroomed vs. Darrell
Mew2king vs Duck WF
Mew2king vs Duck GF

Kadano: try to avoid referring to aerial drift as "DI" since it has absolutely nothing to do with Directional Influence. otherwise, good work.

I was under the impression DI during hitstun and “aerial drift” work just the same. How do they differ?

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks i appreciate it

 

[Deleted member]

marth vs samus is surprisingly horrible for samus if marth plays correctly. samus is buns in the air so the entire premise of the match is to DD camp or shield camp into grab or WD OOS > grab into upthrow. once you have her above you, just keep her there as long as possible, rinse + repeat.

for recovery, always take the edge if she has to use her 2nd jump + something else. once she does something else based on her position, react to it. that means if she grapples the edge, bair her on the pull in. if she grapples under the edge, ledge jump and hit her when she goes over it. if she up Bs, same thing. if the samus is really smart and grapples below the edge, and uses the pull up to mimic a 2nd jump sweetspot to the edge, you'll have to ledge jump dair her and then react to her wall tech. most samus players aren't that good though. if she recovers high and lands on the stage you should upthrow her again rather than trying a fsmash. in general though just put the sword between her and the stage and keep doing it until something obvious happens and you kill her. whether it's at the edge or the middle of the stage, if you can keep her from landing it's a functional edge guard anyway.

always go to FD and ban DL64 if you can. strike DL64 and BF from neutral. don't be afraid to light shield camp, even if she grabs you, you can combo DI her throws and they do **** damage. always always convert from neutral with upthrow because she can't crouch it and she's basically garbage without her ground defense game.

 

[Tarv]

One of my good friends is a Samus main and I play him all the time so it's the MU I play most often. I'm not very good at it, admittedly so take my advice with a grain of salt. However, I have a few tips that I think you'll potentially find useful. First off, the key to dealing with Samus' recovery is to be patient. It's tempting to run-off the stage like a madman and fair or dair him but a skilled Samus can make you wish that you hadn't. So be patient, Samus' are always waiting for the opponent to bite first; I've always maintained that Samus is a very "Counter" style character. Thus, edgeguarding works in the same general idea. Second important thing to remember when dealing with his recovery is to mess up his bomb jumps, all it takes is a quick bair or fair to disrupt the flow. Skilled Samus' can recovery this disruption but it makes it much more difficult to respond from. Third, once they use their grapple they're (which they'll probably have to if you'd edgeguarded correctly up to this point) pretty vulnerable and their options are very limited at this point. Once they're without a grapple, their recovery becomes significantly worse. Best thing to do is run-off fair or run-off up-b. When Samus is hanging she's very vulnerable and will have to react fairly quickly. From this many Samus' will get into the habit of pulling themselves up as quickly as possible which is when I advise that you use shieldbreaker (because it hits below the stage) and is especially helpful if they don't sweetspot or just dtilt . Finally, of course you can always dair her or get a tippered fsmash. But remember to be patient; eventually she'll run out of options, it's a longer process than edgeguarding most characters.

Also, avoid FoD and Dreamland. I try to go to Yoshi's, or even final destination. I actually don't think BF is that bad for Marth in this MU. Hopefully some of this was helpful in some capacity and wasn't a complete waste of your time.


EDIT: Alternatively, ignore what I've posted and just listen to Umbreon


Good luck with the Samus MU!

 

[Deleted member]

BF isn't that bad for marth but it's really tedious and easy to lose concentration and mental momentum from a stalled match. i'd rather go to fountain over it but that might be more for personal preference over strategic reasons. if the samus is really smart and uses the lowered platforms to get back to the stage to go back to neutral from a disadvantageous position, i could see banning that over BF.

 

[Tarv]

I just hate having to deal with a stage that gives Samus an even better recovery since the stage runs all the way to the bottom of the screen. Edgeguarding Samus is difficult enough as it is and giving her FoD too is just giving her more options for recovery. I like BF because her mobility is limited and for me at least it's easier to get into that uthrow--->utilt/uair combo in a smaller stage. I mean, it's not the best stage for the MU because good Samus' can abuse platforms really well but the lack of space is usally more of a plus for Marth (at least from what I've seen). Also BF's small stage edge makes the grapple recovery difficult for her. I honestly think the best stage choices are YS and FD though. FD takes away platforms and makes it super easy to space tippered fairs and thanks to a lack of platforms it's even harder for her to tech out of utilt combos. YS goes off of the idea of limiting her space for retreat; you literally can't run from Marth on YS. However, both of the stages can put Marth at a disadvantage if he spaces too far away at FD (which makes it super easy for a good Samus to missile camp) or gets trapped on one of the lower platforms at YS and be punished like there's no tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member]

marth does not do combos on samus. your goodness in this match is largely based on your willingness to wait and your willingness to only use upthrow, fair, upair, and bair. just hit her once and re-adjust, she still won't be able to land or do anything i promise.