Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I am having issue edguarding spacies. Namely that they always are able to side b right past me as I am terrible at stopping it. I read some of the theory a few pages back but i'm so bad. I was wondering if maybe i'm doing something wrong to allow them to recover from that height in the first place.

You are being sort of vague in that description of height. I will just assume spacies are just illusion/phantasm straight into you or just plain overhead and no shortening tactics. Pretty much if they are going right through you you will just need better reaction time or timing or choice of attack. Like if they are going slightly above you, don't use Dtilt. If you are slow on reaction do not use Fsmash. If you are trying to Fair them, consider maybe you are getting hit a lot in landing lag of a short hop.

If they can DJ above your jab, SH to follow their height and fair on reaction to their side-B. If they can't, jab side-Bs above the ledge. If they don't side-B above the ledge, dtilt the ledge height side-B. If they up-B at any point, you should be landing from an empty hop or standing still waiting. If they are close, run off and hit them, if not, stay on stage and edgeguard. Never fsmash unless it's guaranteed and they can't tech it.

I disagree with short hopping really at any point to cover SideB. While short hopping you lose most of your mobility and limit your effective coverage to only a certain location of the stage which is literally however far Marth can swing his sword. When you do that, the spacies have far more control at that point because they see "Oh, marth is in the air. I'll get a free pass to the ledge." So, I think its better to stay grounded at all times. Spacies going for a SideB above you is perfectly fine since they are in lag for a very long time. SideB lag, helpless falling, and landing lag allows you to always catch them whatever they do. Only problem is if they manage to ledge cancel the SideB.

If you stay grounded you can cover all ledge shenanigans and only have to worry about SideB through you. And any attack with a hitbox will hit them out of it. It doesn't matter which attack so long as its one you can time/space when you react to SideB, whatever works for you. The other option is simply to just shield the sideB through you and just WD OoS -> grab or something.

When you see UpB, its just a matter of quickly accessing their possible angles and covering the angle with the shortest flying distance first, then working your way up to the ones with the longer air time. Or if you are close enough and have enough time simply go out there at them.

If you find yourself in landing lag as you're getting side-b, try a neu-b. You can keep charging it from aerial to grounded state and simply release it if they drop too low for neu-b and decide to up-b instead.....or just hit'their up-b with it fully charged. Roystyle.

Problem with this is its harder to cover UpB that way depending upon if they have their 2nd jump or not and how close to the stage they are. If fox/falco already burned up their jump and they have to SideB/UpB, and all possible angles to survive put them directly into the path of Marth's blade, then charging is great. Otherwise, they can typically just like 2nd jump over you SideB/UpB to the top platform or something.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't believe I could do that.

​

​

Man there's something Kevin would never say.

This thread is even more inane than usual.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

One post leads to more insane thread.

Success!

 

[Purpletuce]

Umbreon, PP said that last page, post no #13139. Eryx Vexia takes game one!

Inane- silly, stupid, insignificant (Google)

Nice word use by Umbreon, poor comprehension by Eryx Vexia. Umbreon takes game two!

Any bets on who will win the set?

Spoiler

This board just became more inane.

Spoiler

You thought I would say who I thought would win, didn't you?

Spoiler

Mind. . .

Spoiler

Collapse is a fun tool

 

[Xyzz]

Umbreon will win ofc. He sandbagged game one.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

As a psychic type, Umbreon is immune to both by attacks and is quite effective against me in retaliation. I forfeited before the match even began.

 

[genkaku]

umbreon isn't a psychic type

 

[Bones0]

Only problem is if they manage to ledge cancel the SideB.

...which basically every Fox/Falco player worth their salt uses all the time. You might just be misled by the fact that PP and Mango prefer to do really intelligent recovery stuff instead of just abusing easy-mode shorten vs. ledgecancel mixups (though I remember PP doing a ledgecancel at Zenith).

As long as you jump on reaction to them DJing high, you can still hit them with your FF fair or empty land dtilt before they get to the ledge. You just have to make sure you time your jump right so that you are landing as early as possible while still covering the peak of their DJ with the top of your fair.

 

[Xyzz]

umbreon isn't a psychic type

that was my first though, too. Then I noticed, that he referred to being a psychic type himself.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Perhaps I should have quoted Bones post as I was expanding on his follow-DJ-with-shorthop

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@Genkaku: Umbreon is the dark type. Think of who else could possibly be the psychic type.

@Bones: I do not see all falco/foxs going for ledge cancels off the platforms. Even fewer actually getting it routinely. If its that big of a problem you can still anticipate it from the height/distance they are at. And what height is the 2nd jump initiated from and how far away that you are needing to short hop?

 

[BTmoney]

Edge canceling your side B as a spacie is pretty elementary. If I can do it with no real effort than I'm sure all the Fox players better than me can.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Max I didn't say I could raw react.

I may however be able to condition so I don't have to rely on pure reaction and can get him as he throws anyway.

 

[Bones0]

@Genkaku: Umbreon is the dark type. Think of who else could possibly be the psychic type.

@Bones: I do not see all falco/foxs going for ledge cancels off the platforms. Even fewer actually getting it routinely. If its that big of a problem you can still anticipate it from the height/distance they are at. And what height is the 2nd jump initiated from and how far away that you are needing to short hop?

I don't understand the last part of that.

I was studying my matches vs. M2K and I noticed a perfect example of him doing exactly what I said. You can see him stay grounded at first, SH on reaction to my high DJ, then fair on reaction to the side-B.

http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23/b/423313728&t=30m38s

If that link doesn't work it's at 0:30:38.

 

[genkaku]

ah, I see
10 I sees

 

[Deleted member]

Max I didn't say I could raw react.

I may however be able to condition so I don't have to rely on pure reaction and can get him as he throws anyway.

I didn't even read the context, you just don't strike me as a "cannot do" kind of guy.

 

[knightpraetor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXCrxJBpJrk

This guy's vs jiggs is surprisingly decent. I'm used to expecting marths to be horrendous at that matchup cause they never play it. But anyway, worth a watch. He's not really getting enough off of his stray hits, but his play from neutral was pretty solid in what i've watched so far (match 1)

 

[CyberZixx]

Iceman is too impatient overall and trying to force opening and hits when they are not there but not bad overall. The rest punish combo was sick.

 

[Purpletuce]

Iceman is super good. I feel like you guys can't really appreciate this match though, you don't know about their rivalry. This set was super tense. They're both super cocky too. . .

 

[Bones0]

The Puff doesn't even WD. lol

 

[Kadano]

I also felt that Puff’s spacing was really sub-par.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i thought max would smile after reading this:

"Guessing is so worthless in melee lol it's all about building an encyclopedic knowledge of the best positions to be in"
--forward

 

[clowsui]

Pretty sure Forward whooped you for a good five games after that too

 

[genkaku]

clowsui what's your avatar?

 

[Deleted member]

i thought max would smile after reading this:

"Guessing is so worthless in melee lol it's all about building an encyclopedic knowledge of the best positions to be in"
--forward

alright so i had to shower and throw out my clothes from the gobs of semen in them, but i forgot to close this tab, so i came back and had to do it all over again and now i'm down 2 pairs of underwear and a pair of jeans.

so yeah basically in a word yes.

 

[clowsui]

narukami/banchou from p4a

 

[Tee ay eye]

Pretty sure Forward whooped you for a good five games after that too

oh, he said this on FB

i haven't played forward (at all, not just tourney) in like, months, and we played marth vs fox/falco in PM X_X

(i won)

 

[knightpraetor]

so I was really confused yesterday because i was trying to understand what causes falco's phantasm to clink with marth's moves. My friend said that if my attack is within 8% of the phantasm's damage it will clink. And phantasm does 5-7% I think based on staleness. (feel free to correct me on the exact numbers anyone)

Anyway, I guess I have two questions. 1. Does fsmash have enough damage to not clink with the phantasm?

and 2. If clinking is possible how come it almost never happens when I jab phantasms while standing at the ledge. It mostly just happens when falco uses ledge invuln to instant phantasm a la jman.

Anyway, understanding this mechanic would probably help my game a lot. Appreciate any help

 

[MT_]

You clink with phantasm not because of the damage of your move but because you are swinging too late. The hitbox from the phantasm comes AFTER Falco's hurtbox as he is traveling. You just need to swing earlier.

 

[clowsui]

I dunno if it's just this way in Brawl but Falco's phantasm hitbox is classified as a projectile hitbox by the game

 

[Kadano]

1. Does fsmash have enough damage to not clink with the phantasm?

Only if you tipper with it.

2. If clinking is possible how come it almost never happens when I jab phantasms while standing at the ledge. It mostly just happens when falco uses ledge invuln to instant phantasm a la jman.

Phantasm’s hitbox is way behind his hurtbox. When he tries to recover, you hit him long before it gets near you.
With ledge invincibility on the other hand, Falco can stay invulnerable longer than his hitbox is out. Thus, you won’t hit his hurtbox and his animation goes on until his hitbox collides with your sword hitbox.

You clink with phantasm not because of the damage of your move but because you are swinging too late. The hitbox from the phantasm comes AFTER Falco's hurtbox as he is traveling. You just need to swing earlier.

That would only be true in two cases: 1. if he experienced this during edgeguarding (he wrote that was “almost never” the case) or 2. if the Falco was doing his ledge phantasm so slowly that his invincibilty ended before he passed through you.
If he’s coming from the ledge with good timing, you can’t hit him at all if you are standing near the ledge. You can time your fsmash so that it will overpower the phantasm, but Falco will just warp right through you anyway.

The only solutions to this problem I can think of right now are these two:
1. Roll backwards to grab him.
2. Dash back to pivot tipper dsmash. If both phantasm and dsmash are unstaled, you don’t need to charge it, it’s just above the Δ=8 threshold. This only works against frame perfect phantasms (as low as possible while still above the stage).
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A shortened phantasm will evade both.

 

[Xyzz]

What about shield > wd oos > grab?

 

[Kadano]

What about shield > wd oos > grab?

Well, that works too. Haha, sometimes I just don’t think of the simple things.
4 frames leeway btw.

 

[Xyzz]

Haha, well, it's just the option I use most of the time

Also: In my experience people (yeah, all three my Marth has faced yet :D) want to shield after they land from an illusions and notice you are really close to them, ready to punish... So it's often not even important to actually manage to be within four frames of perfect execution (:
(and well, if I'm unsure, there's always the standard stuff like not going for a direct punish, but rather waiting out their spot dodge / counterattack with a little dashdance or whatever)

 

[Mahie]

It would make more sense for them to shine, because that could beat both an attack (aerial/dash attack; by clanking with it) and a grab if the Marth isn't accurate enough. As for the shield, it allows for a quick wavedash out of danger, but, if you do connect with shine, you get rewarded with a combo, or at least some damage and/or the positional advantage.

Shielding would just prevent you from being hit by an aerial or a dash attack, but would not counter the grab. Of course, both of these are assuming Marth misses his timing because you should be in a disadvantage, similar to a techchasing situation.

Spotdodging might be the best option here actually, as it allows for a shine regardless of what you dodge (Grab, dash attack, aerials), whilst being the most susceptible to throw Marth off.


Conclusion : If you're not good enough to techchase or punish something properly, those are the main spacie escape paths, and you should be ready to punish them instead.

 

[noobird]

can't you crouch cancel the phantasm and punish accordingly as well?

 

[Bones0]

Only if you tipper with it.

Phantasm’s hitbox is way behind his hurtbox. When he tries to recover, you hit him long before it gets near you.
With ledge invincibility on the other hand, Falco can stay invulnerable longer than his hitbox is out. Thus, you won’t hit his hurtbox and his animation goes on until his hitbox collides with your sword hitbox.

That would only be true in two cases: 1. if he experienced this during edgeguarding (he wrote that was “almost never” the case) or 2. if the Falco was doing his ledge phantasm so slowly that his invincibilty ended before he passed through you.
If he’s coming from the ledge with good timing, you can’t hit him at all if you are standing near the ledge. You can time your fsmash so that it will overpower the phantasm, but Falco will just warp right through you anyway.

The only solutions to this problem I can think of right now are these two:
1. Roll backwards to grab him.
2. Dash back to pivot tipper dsmash. If both phantasm and dsmash are unstaled, you don’t need to charge it, it’s just above the Δ=8 threshold. This only works against frame perfect phantasms (as low as possible while still above the stage).
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[/collapse]

A shortened phantasm will evade both.

Could you SH backwards with a rising fair to hit the first hitbox? Then, depending on how you space your landing, you could falling uair or just FF grab before their lag ends.

How many frames of lag do you have after clinks? Is the "hitlag" moment variable based on the attacks? If you could jab to clink with the first hitbox and immediately dash back afterwards, would it be faster than, say, ftilting? What happens if you use B moves?

can't you crouch cancel the phantasm and punish accordingly as well?

Falco's side-B is a meteor so it's much harder to CC. Fox's isn't, so you'll have better luck CCing his.

 

[Mahie]

If you have time to think about CCing, might as well shield. Moving accordingly after the shieldstun is the same concept as moving after the regular stun.

 

[knightpraetor]

Could you SH backwards with a rising fair to hit the first hitbox? Then, depending on how you space your landing, you could falling uair or just FF grab before their lag ends.

How many frames of lag do you have after clinks? Is the "hitlag" moment variable based on the attacks? If you could jab to clink with the first hitbox and immediately dash back afterwards, would it be faster than, say, ftilting? What happens if you use B moves?




Falco's side-B is a meteor so it's much harder to CC. Fox's isn't, so you'll have better luck CCing his.

The person asking the most questions is the one who got out for free 9 times in our last set with this... Anyway, no doubt you will have new tricks for me next time. Anyway, now I finally realize why jman used this like 70% of the time back when i was watching him recover back on stage in 2010. Free center stage if they are slow on the punish or don't react. is falco's phantasm shorter than foxes? i keep thinking he can go farther. I remember jman faking out so many people near the ledge trying to pressure him and then just flying towards center and them not being able to get a guaranteed punish before the queued roll/spotdodge/shine

edit: don't judge...I really didn't know you could get invuln that far back. I was trying to pull back more to punish. Does fox's phantasm also maintain invuln until the very end of the phantasm?

 

[Bones0]

The person asking the most questions is the one who got out for free 9 times in our last set with this... Anyway, no doubt you will have new tricks for me next time. Anyway, now I finally realize why jman used this like 70% of the time back when i was watching him recover back on stage in 2010. Free center stage if they are slow on the punish or don't react. is falco's phantasm shorter than foxes? i keep thinking he can go farther. I remember jman faking out so many people near the ledge trying to pressure him and then just flying towards center and them not being able to get a guaranteed punish before the queued roll/spotdodge/shine

edit: don't judge...I really didn't know you could get invuln that far back. I was trying to pull back more to punish. Does foxes also maintain invuln until the very end of the phantasm?

Asking questions about how to beat stuff lets me stay a step ahead. I had never thought about a Marth clinking with a hitbox in order to protect himself and still get the punish so if it happens now, I won't be confused and surprised when it matters. The majority of Marths just shield, WD out, and grab, and the majority of the time that works fine. It just might not be as optimal as something link clinking and fsmashing them off the other side with awful DI because they expected a shield, WD, grab.

I'm pretty sure Falco's Phantasm starts up a few frames faster because I remember M2K saying it made it significantly harder to jab Falco's side-B on reaction (I want to say 3-4 frames, but I'm sure Kadano can clarify regardless). I don't see the point in clinking with anything other than jab since anything else will be a read, but if you want to also cover a ledgecancelled side-B then moving backwards while throwing out a fair could double your coverage, and if they do something other than immediate side-B, you're not committed to something as silly as pivot dsmash (though that gif is epic lol).