New to the boards, dealing with dodge spam

[Suudsu]

Hi, I'm new to these forums.

I play as mainly captain falcon and marth, with a healthy dose of fox for fun. I wouldn't say I'm good at smash but I'm better than any player who hasn't put any work into it. I L-cancel, I tec, etc. I feel as if I'm decent and I work pretty hard to get good at combos and timings.

The problem I have is when facing some of my friends. I play characters that are pretty offensively oriented, and the notable lack of projectiles means I'm often forced to approach. A good number of my friends simply sit back and spot dodge, roll or shield (mostly spot dodge) and then punish. It really can get to me because they don't have to learn the character, they can just spot dodge with whoever and punish with a fast move. I try tomahawking but that only works against shields. I try dash dancing but even if I fake them out there's like no penalty for them unneccesarily dodging.

Any tips on how to beat this strategy?

BONUS: Any tips on how to punish someone who constantly crouch cancels?

 

[JKJ]

When someone spot dodges, you can absolutely punish them. There is certainly a penalty, they have lag frames and you don't if you see it coming. If you are dash dancing, and they spot dodge, SHFFL knee into them (also, bonus points, Falcon's knee cannot be crouch canceled); if you're Marth, grab once you see them spotdodge, or SHFFL nair into them. Spotdodge is absolutely punishable unless you're playing Project: M and your opponent is Wolf.

BONUS:
What character is your opponent playing? Regardless, use non-crouch cancelable moves, like Falcon's knee. Tipper aerials as Marth, or any tipper move in general, cannot be crouch canceled.

 

[Suudsu]

Thanks I'll try some of that out. The situations where I find spot dodging the hardest to beat is when I'm running/jumping towards them and if I can't predict their dodge they can grab or jab or otherwise coutner my attack.

 

[lanabo]

Thanks I'll try some of that out. The situations where I find spot dodging the hardest to beat is when I'm running/jumping towards them and if I can't predict their dodge they can grab or jab or otherwise coutner my attack.

against players like this it is good to fake approaches. for example, you can run straight toward them and WD in place just when you are about to get in range for an attack, and usually you can bait a spotdodge/roll->punish. DDing and baiting out a spotdodge with CF should get you a grab or a knee on them every time if you are fast enough and your DDing is well-spaced. also, if you jump toward them intending to approach with an aerial and you know that they will spot dodge early in anticipation for your aerial, try delaying your aerial timing or not fast falling so that your attack will catch them during the lag frames after the spot dodge.

JKJ is right on the money - spotdodges are super punishable, it is just a matter of reacting to them quickly enough and at the right time. just keep practicing and improving your reaction times/reads and eventually you will be able to punish spot dodges accordingly.

BONUS:
as CF, knee, stomp, or grab to punish CC spammers. not familiar with marth

 

[Bones0]

Your first mistake was thinking Falcon and Marth are offensively oriented characters. Tbh, no one in Melee should be played THAT offensively. Especially at lower levels, no one is performing solid offense, so you might as well learn to play defensively. Falcon and Marth are both much more exposed when airborne than on the ground, so try not to jump around a bunch. They both have great ground speed and grabs and grab punishes, so utilize those as the core of your game. If you start using a lot of run up grabs, they will of course start spotdodging and rolling. Next time you see an opportunity to run up grab, DD instead and try to react to their dodges. People that rely on dodges a lot will usually go right back to shielding after the dodge if you don't whiff a punish. Once they realize you can just DD grab all of their dodges, they may start attacking more at which point you can focus on avoiding attacks and grabbing their lag.

This probably sounds not as exciting as throwing out aerials, but it will give you a better foundation so that when you do get into learning when to attack in the air you will be more safe about it and your opponents will have to respect your defense more. Besides, the better your grab game is, the more you will get to practice combos. lol You can get REALLY good at this game with only DDing, WDing, and grab, so don't practice it for a single smashfest and think you've learned everything you need to know about it. Being able to DD and WD well is a huge factor to how well you will be able to grab spam so make sure your tech skill is as fast as possible. Wasting frames before and after WDs is a major reason people are unable to capitalize on punishing dodges.

BONUS:
What character is your opponent playing? Regardless, use non-crouch cancelable moves, like Falcon's knee. Tipper aerials as Marth, or any tipper move in general, cannot be crouch canceled.

None of this is true... Every attack can be CCed, stronger moves just knock opponents over at lower percents, and CCing multiplies this effect. The reason to use strong attacks vs. CCing is they may have enough stun that you can dash away or shield to avoid certain CC counter attacks.

 

[Suudsu]

Thanks everybody. I've got a lot to learn. Never even thought about wavedashing in place. What does that do, exactly? Just stops your dash?

This community seems to have a lot of kind and helpful people. Glad I joined.

 

[t3h Icy]

Spot-dodging can stop a lot of players' offense when they're not used to it. Remember that sometimes it's smart to pretend you're about to attack to get a reaction out of your opponent (spot dodge, roll, etc), while you stand completely ready to actually attack right after. Offense is not just hitting the opponent, but also making them scared to use those defensive options, so then you have an easier time doing said hitting. Of course, they might go back to the opponent starting to dodge again after or mixing it up, but that's why you've got to adapt! It's also why it's helpful to control emotions such as panic and worry in very tight situations so you don't do an easily predicted move at those times, ie, you continue reading what your opponent is doing.

Also, if you learn visually, check out Fox's spot dodge (as an example):

That's his animation with his hurtboxes (the locations where he can be hit). Yellow means he's vulnverable, and blue means he's invincible (spot dodge). You can see that at the end of it, Fox is vulnerable and unable to do anything since the animation is still going, so hit him then.

 

[JKJ]

None of this is true... Every attack can be CCed, stronger moves just knock opponents over at lower percents, and CCing multiplies this effect. The reason to use strong attacks vs. CCing is they may have enough stun that you can dash away or shield to avoid certain CC counter attacks.

Sorry Bones0, I just knew that these moves were much harder to CC, and induce much more stun, so I just knew that I used them against CC'ers and I have heard from D1's commentary that Fox can't CC Falcon's knee.

 

[Bones0]

Sorry Bones0, I just knew that these moves were much harder to CC, and induce much more stun, so I just knew that I used them against CC'ers and I have heard from D1's commentary that Fox can't CC Falcon's knee.

Not a big deal, but it's annoying to people spreading that around because it confuses a lot of people.

Rule #1 of improving in Melee: ignore commentators that can't make bracket.

 

[JKJ]

Not a big deal, but it's annoying to people spreading that around because it confuses a lot of people.

Rule #1 of improving in Melee: ignore commentators that can't make bracket.

tl;dr
Wobbles da bess

 

[ERayz]

Bait that dodge by doing what lanabo said.

You can dashdance then WD in place while going in their direction. It works and you have plenty of time to grab/knee/tipper them, depending on how close you were from them when they dodge.

 

[noobird]

None of this is true... Every attack can be CCed, stronger moves just knock opponents over at lower percents, and CCing multiplies this effect. The reason to use strong attacks vs. CCing is they may have enough stun that you can dash away or shield to avoid certain CC counter attacks.

You can't crouch cancel meteors according to kadano though sooo... stomp is good. also, does this mean in PAL marth's dair can't be cced but it can in NTSC. lol PAL marth for god tier

 

[Beat!]

Marth's PAL dair being a meteor actually allows for some combos which can be DI:d out of in NTSC, such as techchasing with it on a platform --> tipper fsmash.

 

[Bones0]

You can't crouch cancel meteors according to kadano though sooo... stomp is good. also, does this mean in PAL marth's dair can't be cced but it can in NTSC. lol PAL marth for god tier

A fresh stomp kills Fox off the top of FD at 147%. If Fox CCs, he won't die until 250%. At 147%, CCing reduces his KB from dying off the top to about even with Falcon's FH height. I don't have any good way of testing if stun is also reduced, but I'd surprised if CCing (which normally reduces KB and stun) only reduces KB when it's a meteor.

 

[noobird]

I'm just confused as to how meteors "can't" be cced because as you said, according to just playing for like 5 minutes, they can.

 

[Suudsu]

If anyone is still looking at this thread...

I'm still having trouble baiting and hitting. I realize I probably just need practice, but the window seems so little. For instance, sometimes I dash in and jump-cancel a grab and they'll spot dodge. The amount of time they are vulnerable is so little that they can already spot dodge again by the time I try to grab or (with marth) jab. Maybe missing-a-grab animation is longer than it feels, but the window seems so small. If I can't hit when I'm right next to him, it seems very hard to be able to hit when I have to distance myself first, then swing in.

Is there a place I can look up the number of frames for attacks, animations of hitboxes, etc? That one of fox in this thread looks like something I could use well, if they exist for other attacks, dodges etc.

 

[TerryJ]

If anyone is still looking at this thread...

I'm still having trouble baiting and hitting. I realize I probably just need practice, but the window seems so little. For instance, sometimes I dash in and jump-cancel a grab and they'll spot dodge. The amount of time they are vulnerable is so little that they can already spot dodge again by the time I try to grab or (with Marth) jab. Maybe missing-a-grab animation is longer than it feels, but the window seems so small. If I can't hit when I'm right next to him, it seems very hard to be able to hit when I have to distance myself first, then swing in..

I used have the same problem with my friends Peach. I've played with him for years and he knows all of my habits really well. The main way I would start a combo was by JC'ing a grab or run at him with a Knee but when he noticed that he started to Spotdodge to Down Smash (50+% if CC'd) and Shield Grabbing respectively.

If you've played against your friends a lot, they probably know your habits really well so try to do more mixups. Change the way you initiate attacks, and make your opponent think you're going to come at them with the same thing twice. If you can do that you'll know where they're going to go and can punish accordingly. This is one reason why Wave Dashing is so stupid useful because it can be used to fake out your opponent and make them whiff an attack.

Is there a place I can look up the number of frames for attacks, animations of hitboxes, etc? That one of fox in this thread looks like something I could use well, if they exist for other attacks, dodges etc

Yeah, there is an entire project going on for making .gif images of every characters frame data and you can find the thread right here in the Melee Discussion board. (Always read the stickies )

 

[Zhea]

It's all timing. Spamming spot dodge is one of the worst habits. If they either always do it, after a whiffed aerial or whiffed grab or whenever you approach just stand still and work on waiting for the spot dodge and THEN punishing them. Stomp, fsmash, knee, upsmash. Take your pick. You can grab too. It takes some work to break the habit of attacking or grabbing immediately, but it's well worth it. CC spam... Well it depends, is it spam? or do they understand how long they can do it for? CC is really just a test of your spacing. All of you characters have ways to either out space them or completely ignore it(shine). Grabbing works for getting around it. If they are just always holding down, your kill moves will kill them at much earlier percents then if they actually tried di-ing. If you are getting cc'd and then punished... Well that's just it, they are punishing you for terrible spacing.