RichBrown
Smash Master
Ok so as usual I don't know a single thing about characters beyond B tier and I got ***** for it, I need you all to help me so things like WGF never happen to me again
Ready go
Ready go
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Ness MU discussion
- Thread starter RichBrown
- Start date
Sky Pirate
The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
OK, UM, BASICS:
don't shield, ness is safe on oli's shield, even JC US OOS shouldn't work when ness hits shield right (cept for yellows)
don't challenge ness in the air, its worthless, unless you have a purple, you are better just rolling
speaking of rolling, do it a lot when ness jumps, one weird thing about ness is he can't deal with opponents who get behind him, so when he jumps, take that as your chance to roll behind him, and just mindgame him from there until he lands
you cannot challenge ness, but olimar's range allows him to punish ANY whiffed attack by ness, if he misses a fair, you can get in with running grabs and dash attack
grab is ness's best killing move, self explanatory, expect the grab to kill, and if ness gets frustrated he will start trying to fsmash and dair a lot
up-b is great, quite simply, up-b will **** ness's approaches, that is probably olimar's only way to counter fair, besides pivot grab if ness doesn't retreat the fair
side-b isn't good because ness knocks off pikmin easily just using his normal attacks, if you want to decay fair, use it for that, but otherwise, don't worry about doing damage through side-B spam, except with purples, casue those are amazing
ness isn't good at juggling TBH, olimar can dair ness in the air to stop upair, and if you remember to stay behind an aerial ness, bair is easy to nullify because it has startup and single hit attack
side-b stop recovery, thats it
spotdodge is too slow to use and punish ness afterwards, and since many of ness's moves are multi-hit, spotdodge will probably be beaten
thats what i got on ness, its a very hard MU IMHO, probably 40-60
don't shield, ness is safe on oli's shield, even JC US OOS shouldn't work when ness hits shield right (cept for yellows)
don't challenge ness in the air, its worthless, unless you have a purple, you are better just rolling
speaking of rolling, do it a lot when ness jumps, one weird thing about ness is he can't deal with opponents who get behind him, so when he jumps, take that as your chance to roll behind him, and just mindgame him from there until he lands
you cannot challenge ness, but olimar's range allows him to punish ANY whiffed attack by ness, if he misses a fair, you can get in with running grabs and dash attack
grab is ness's best killing move, self explanatory, expect the grab to kill, and if ness gets frustrated he will start trying to fsmash and dair a lot
up-b is great, quite simply, up-b will **** ness's approaches, that is probably olimar's only way to counter fair, besides pivot grab if ness doesn't retreat the fair
side-b isn't good because ness knocks off pikmin easily just using his normal attacks, if you want to decay fair, use it for that, but otherwise, don't worry about doing damage through side-B spam, except with purples, casue those are amazing
ness isn't good at juggling TBH, olimar can dair ness in the air to stop upair, and if you remember to stay behind an aerial ness, bair is easy to nullify because it has startup and single hit attack
side-b stop recovery, thats it
spotdodge is too slow to use and punish ness afterwards, and since many of ness's moves are multi-hit, spotdodge will probably be beaten
thats what i got on ness, its a very hard MU IMHO, probably 40-60
Slain Avenger
Smash Ace
I can vouch for that fact that purples are gods here, they stop everything off a ness.
And dabuz, what about a ness who's back air spammy, wouldn't rolling behind him get you hit? What I usually do (and I don't have much practice on the MU) is wait for him to jump and run under him to pivot grab. IMO, punishing his landings is pretty key. I don't ever jump in this MU and only shield when it is absolutely necessary.
Like wario, I feel running around and walking every once and a while is boss.
Edit: after reading the old MU some (not gonna read it all :/) I do agree with some things:
Yellows rule
letting him fair your shield is a bad position... Can someone confirm if we can do a retreating fair and space it correctly to hit him after his fair is done?
Don't get grabbed XD.
Also, throw reds at his PK fire, it's funny.
One last thing, can we oos upsmash a dair happy ness?
And dabuz, what about a ness who's back air spammy, wouldn't rolling behind him get you hit? What I usually do (and I don't have much practice on the MU) is wait for him to jump and run under him to pivot grab. IMO, punishing his landings is pretty key. I don't ever jump in this MU and only shield when it is absolutely necessary.
Like wario, I feel running around and walking every once and a while is boss.
Edit: after reading the old MU some (not gonna read it all :/) I do agree with some things:
Yellows rule
letting him fair your shield is a bad position... Can someone confirm if we can do a retreating fair and space it correctly to hit him after his fair is done?
Don't get grabbed XD.
Also, throw reds at his PK fire, it's funny.
One last thing, can we oos upsmash a dair happy ness?
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
um, the dair gives a lot of shield stun and knockback, so without a perfect shield, your better off trying to grab
also, about that bair, if ness gets conditioned to rolling and tries punishing with bair, this is where the guessing game comes in so olimar can do damage
also, about that bair, if ness gets conditioned to rolling and tries punishing with bair, this is where the guessing game comes in so olimar can do damage
You're better off Usmashing/Uairing Ness before the Dair hitbox comes out.
Yink
The Robo-PSIentist
This.
You guys should be focusing on how Ness is positioned in the air, then focusing on how he HAS to land. Punish him for landing. Don't challenge Ness in the air at all, wait patiently on the ground for him.
Also, if he's offstage, don't be afraid to toss pikmin at him. If one latches on and he's used his double jump, Ness is dead. The pikmin will clash with PKT and Ness will fall to his death helplessly.
Some general things to know: If Ness is far enough away he'll bat pikmin. If he's in the air, his Nair will get rid of pikmin in like, one hit I think (unless it's a white, right?).
Ness will harass with nairs, fairs and dairs. Just space well and punish the landings and you'll do lots better. Also, I find this matchup is very even onstage, but if you get him offstage it might be a little easier.
This matchup was discussed as even, so I'll say 50:50. I however, think it's a little harder, so I'm more willing to say 55:45 Oli's favor. Hope this was somewhat helpful.
Denti
Smash Master
My advice is uh... Don't lose to bad characters? Might wana start there
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
So how you doin against Polt brahhhh
(smirk)
(smirk)
Denti
Smash Master
So how you doin against Polt brahhhh
(:failfail: )
hobo 28
beat: alsm, K prime, poltergUst, gamma, tesH
So my real input towards this MU is...
yellow up and forward smash beat his fair approach because it's electrical.
Don't get caught in his ******** pk fire mind game when you respond to pluck pikmin, just run away from it.
having a latched pikmin on ness when he does his up B will do a variety of things... When you throw a pikmin on him you HAVE to latch it on his face or shoulders, if it lands on his feet he wont get gimped. If he already has connected his up B to himself you can throw a pikmin (side B or f smash) in front of him to considerably slow him down and shorten how far he travels.
His nair beats our incomplete nair to up smash so when you nair, just shield JC US his nair, it works.
avoid getting grabbed at death percent, this is dumb advice because i should rather tell you to not die and hold you stock.
I throw a lot of side B at ness to lag his attacks so i can punish them and make him predictable.
I don't really have any other advice other than ***** it out, our character is better than theirs and you should take advantage of that in every way, even if it means timing them out.
gl with it tho, not knowing a MU sucks really damn hard
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Oh **** got me there.
<3
That said, up smash isn't the best thing to try to counter his approach with. Not because it doesn't beat his fair, when yellow, but because it puts you in a bad spot near Ness. It would be better to try to beat it with yellow fair, which solidly beats Ness' fair.
As for what Yink said about gimp with pikmin toss, canceling his PKT, most of the time I've played against Smash64 he made sure to Nair the pikmin off if there are any on him. And most of the time he'll recover low, where you can't throw a pikmin on him, if that's the case, which is the smart thing to do against Olimar. The only times I got the trick off was when I caught him with a stale fsmash, falling off the ledge, stealing his jump and forcing him to immediately UpB. As soon as the fsmash connected I threw pikmin like a madman and a couple of them latched. So in short, the gimmick isn't realiable and isn't a matchup changer, but there are definitely a few ways to get it to work. Rely on your other edge guarding options more, though, because they're definitely better.
And yeah, like has been said, focus on punishing his landings, it's the main thing we have over Ness in this matchup. He has a really difficult time killing Olimar as long as you don't sit in a shield (which you don't) like a lot of Olimars do. Long as you're mobile and focus on staying away and laying traps that he will run into (fsmash, grab, etc) the matchup becomes a lot easier. It's a slight advantge for Olimar or even, but that's irrelevant.
It'd be easier if you had specific things that were messing you up that Ness was doing to ask about, though. Are there any videos of the set?
<3
That said, up smash isn't the best thing to try to counter his approach with. Not because it doesn't beat his fair, when yellow, but because it puts you in a bad spot near Ness. It would be better to try to beat it with yellow fair, which solidly beats Ness' fair.
As for what Yink said about gimp with pikmin toss, canceling his PKT, most of the time I've played against Smash64 he made sure to Nair the pikmin off if there are any on him. And most of the time he'll recover low, where you can't throw a pikmin on him, if that's the case, which is the smart thing to do against Olimar. The only times I got the trick off was when I caught him with a stale fsmash, falling off the ledge, stealing his jump and forcing him to immediately UpB. As soon as the fsmash connected I threw pikmin like a madman and a couple of them latched. So in short, the gimmick isn't realiable and isn't a matchup changer, but there are definitely a few ways to get it to work. Rely on your other edge guarding options more, though, because they're definitely better.
And yeah, like has been said, focus on punishing his landings, it's the main thing we have over Ness in this matchup. He has a really difficult time killing Olimar as long as you don't sit in a shield (which you don't) like a lot of Olimars do. Long as you're mobile and focus on staying away and laying traps that he will run into (fsmash, grab, etc) the matchup becomes a lot easier. It's a slight advantge for Olimar or even, but that's irrelevant.
It'd be easier if you had specific things that were messing you up that Ness was doing to ask about, though. Are there any videos of the set?
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
hilt, one thing, if you notice a ness nairing off pikmin when offstage, you have two options, fall offstage and continue to throw pikmin, making sure to save the jump, or you can jump off stage and when ness is so low he has o up-b or die, let olimar fall into ness, he gets hit BY PKT, gimps ness and gives olimar his jumpback
RichBrown
Smash Master
I don't really remember what I did wrong, other than I was jumping a lot for no reason. He was also jumping into me then DJretreating nair right as he was about to land, and I stupidly tried to run after him and punish.