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Nair Knockback Guide (posted in the guide section)

Sonicninja115

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Nair Knockback Guide


Uses for Nair:

Nair is great for Ledge-guarding, extending combos, option coverage, starting combos, jab-locking and killing. Nair has easy 20-35% combos, as it easily trues into Bair and Fair after a FH, the one hit pop-up will true into a killing Usmash and the final hit after a SH can even start a combo by truing into Dtilt. Nair can also set up a footstool or Disable.

Notice:
Not much was changed about Nair in the patch. The hitboxes are bigger, but this doesn't affect combo ability.


Overview of Nair Properties


There are five factors that go into which way the opponent flies: DI, Direction(Limited use), Sweet/Sourspot, Hurtbox(Limited use) and Hitboxes/Hit.

DI:

When DI'ing to the RIGHT, the opponent gets sent LEFT. When DI'ing to the LEFT, the opponent gets sent to the RIGHT, thus making it impossible to true combo.
However, After the initial DI you are able to DI in the opposite direction and not change the KB
Example: DI to the Right, DI to the LEFT, opponent gets sent to the LEFT.
Direction:
The Direction Mewtwo and the opponent are facing will change the KB of Nair as shown in the chart below.
Sweetspotting:
Sweetspotting is very integral in making this work. However, sweetspotting is very easy. Mewtwo just needs to make sure not to catch the opponent in the fringe.
Hurtbox:
The Hurtbox of the opponent can make straight Nair KB have different results.​

Hitboxes:
All credit to @Furil and whoever else might have helped him create this.

Mewtwo's Nair has 4 repetitive hitboxes, one on each hand, and one on each foot. These inner portions of the hitbox serve to send into the other ones, trapping the opponent in and generally making Nair not suck. The direction the opponent is sent is entirely dependent on where they are when the final hitbox, the very large one. And the pop up hitbox is dependent on getting hit by only the bottom hitboxes, and not the top ones as well.​

Hit:
The first hit section is three parts, Fringe Back, Fringe Front and Center.

Fringe: When the opponent gets hit by the fringe, it is both easier and harder to get the combo. The fringe is very easy to read, but can be easily DI'ed out of. Oftentimes, people will run too far forward after a Dtilt, and hit with only the back of Mewtwo, not the center like they should.

Center: The center is when Mewtwo jumps up straight into them, and they get trapped in the center of him. This is much harder to DI out of, but can be harder to read if the opponent counters your DI. Regardless, the opponent cannot escape nearly as easily as they can when hit by a fringe.

Then there are the separate hitboxes. These hitboxes are responsible for the wonkiness that happens when you end Nair on the ground, as the final hit decides where the opponent goes. Since there are four separate hitboxes that are all relatively close together, this can be rather problematic. Luckily, there are only two ways they can go when Nair is ended early, one of these leads into an easy Dtilt, and both true into a grab. This makes a 50/50 situation, however, there are ways to make this number a bit more favorable.
Section One: Straight Nair KnockBack

Key:

:4mewtwo:-Mewtwo
:4sheik:-Shiek (character I used in training mode)
-> = facing right
<- = facing left
:GCR: = shiek sent right
:GCL: = Shiek sent left
(Note: I did this on the ground right next to shiek and jumped straight up, not moving until after she was launched. I also checked to see if shiek could DI and she can't. Also, it differs depending on the character, I would lab it, but it would take forever. I might someday.)

:4mewtwo:->:4sheik:->

Direction sent :GCL:

:4sheik:-> :4mewtwo:->

Direction sent :GCR:

(Note: Same for the opposite direction of above graph)

<-:4mewtwo: :4sheik:->

Direction sent :GCR:

:4mewtwo:-> <-:4sheik:

Direction sent :GCL:

Use- None. This just proves that Nair KB can be read.

Video:

Section Two: Predicting Dtilt-Nair KB


How: Dtilt-Nair(DI forward)-DI Backwards-Bair

Explanation: After catching the opponent in Nair (DI Forward) you can DI Backwards in the final fifth of the move, and the opponent's KB will not change. The same works with DI'ing Back-DI Forward-Fair. This could take some time to learn but it is rather easy to do with muscle memory and knowledge of what to look for. And it results in an easy 25-30% True Combo.

See video below.

Section Three: Dtilt-Nair Dropping


At the apex of Mewtwo's SH, fast fall. There is a specific timing to this, and it won't be easy to get it consistently in the beginning, but it is definitely worth it. Keep SH Nairing, and then FF at the apex of the SH. Also, it is sometimes easier to SH, THEN FF Nair, but this doesn't always true. When done optimally, the opponent will slide in front of Mewtwo for an easy Dtilt, otherwise, go for Grab. with the reduced landing lag, there is always a true combo out of this.

How: Dtilt-Nair-FF- Dtilt-Combo

Video:

Section Four: Nair Landing


One version of Nair Landing is when Mewtwo hits a grounded opponent with Nair, while facing the opponent and maintaining forward momentum. If done perfectly, the opponent will fall lightly in front of Mewtwo. In other versions the opponent will go behind Mewtwo or will slide so far in front that only the tip of Dtilt will hit. This is rather unreliable, so I wouldn't suggest going for it. for this reason, I don't have a video to accompany it.

1st:

A RAR Nair can be rather useful for guaranteeing a hit. As the video below shows, it makes the opponent slide in an unfavorable way, however, Mewtwo is sliding in the same direction, allowing for an easy sweetspot. This way is great for getting some easy percent or securing the KO, and is extremely reliable.

Video:

2nd:

If you hit the opponent with only 1 hit of Nair, the opponent will pop up above Mewtwo, true comboing into Usmash. Hitting them with only one hit will always cause this to happen, but it also works when you land with a certain hit. Some characters will always pop up if Mewtwo fastfalls onto them, and most characters will pop-up if they are hit while crouching or laying down after a missed tech.

Characters: :4gaw::4olimar::4kirby::4pikachu: There are others, like :4villager::4ness:, but it isn't 90% likely.

Video:


3rd:

1:

A SH Nair will result in the final hitbox coming out right before landing. It also Auto-cancels the Nair. This final hit is great for combos at all percents barring 110%+. It is relatively safe on shield, being -2, as the only option is shield grab and is rewarding on hit.

Video:

Section Five: Alternative Methods for Telling KB

The opponent will be launched depending on what side of Mewtwo he is on. If he is on Mewtwo's back, then Bair is the follow-up, if he is in front of Mewtwo, then that is the direction he is going to go. Use this method as a confirmation of direction. (Note: This only works with Nair-Aerial)

Opponents DI:

The opponents DI will not affect their KB detrimentally. In fact, their DI often makes it easier to tell which direction they will be sent. If they DI to the right, and you DI to the left, then they can fall out. However, this DI can also be a blessing. If they are DI'ing to the Right, then you can DI to the right and know that they are still going to be sent that way. It makes a dangerous situation for the opponent, especially if they are DI'ing off-stage, as this could lead to a kill.

Another thing to note in regards to DI are Fringe hits. when doing a Dtilt > Nair, you don't always get the exact center of Mewtwo hitbox of Nair. Sometimes you are too far to the right or left, and in what I have dubbed the fringe. This is the area you want the opponent in at the END of Nair, as it is blatant which way they will be sent. However, if they are in this area at the beginning, then DI can drastically affect the Nair. In this fringe, the opponent is already half-way out, and if they DI out of the move and you don't counter it immediately, they are out.

The best way to DI Nair is into Mewtwo. This will cause the characters to overlap and make it exceedingly difficult for Mewtwo to accurately determine which way the opponent will go.

Credit:


@MewSquared For giving me the idea.
Chiroz Chiroz For intense Nair related discussions.
@Metalex For all the help and proofreading.
@Kamtheman56 for proofreading.
 
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U-Throw

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Cool! I always figured there was a way to predict the seemingly random launch angles of Mewtwo's N-Air, but I could never make 100% accurate predictions. If all of this can be applied in actual matches, then I think you may have just struck gold here. I can see this becoming very useful information, and I intend to learn all of it and put it to good use. Thanks so much! :)
 

Sonicninja115

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Cool! I always figured there was a way to predict the seemingly random launch angles of Mewtwo's N-Air, but I could never make 100% accurate predictions. If all of this can be applied in actual matches, then I think you may have just struck gold here. I can see this becoming very useful information, and I intend to learn all of it and put it to good use. Thanks so much! :)
I was thinking this could be used in Nair OOS, or possibly to catch someone if they jump off the ledge. I will definetly put more time into this tho...
 

lavagolem123

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Good stuff here! Hopefully this could be the gateway to consistency when it comes to followups after Nair. Normally, I leave it up to pure reaction ability with about 50-60% proficiency. When using Nair, I'm almost always moving horizontally in some way. As such, the way I tell where they're going to be sent (only after the final hit of Nair) is I'll be very watchful of which side of Mewtwo they're on when the last hit is about to occur and plan to follow up with an aerial on that side. The only time it gets tricky is when the character's body is overlapping with Mewtwo and not really favoring one side more so than the other.
 

Chiroz

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While this is very helpful in itself this isn't exactly what I wanted to know :p (What we were talking about in the other thread). The inconsistencies I cannot solve is "dropping" an opponent with a FF N-Air (landing before the last hit lands).



I am glad you did this and I don't mean to be a party pooper or anything. I just wanted to say that the combos I wrote on the other thread rely on FF the N-Air so this little info doesn't help them get more consistent. Still there is hope that someday we can find an 100% proof fire way of FF an N-Air at a specific moment that makes opponents land in front of Mewtwo.
 

Sonicninja115

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No worries! I will lab Nair KB some more to try to find an atleast 50/50 chance for this! I'm sure there is some way to predict this.
 

meleebrawler

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So the key is to jump backwards when nairing people on the ground?

Edit: Did some testing of short-hop nairs and it seems to help in terms of followups if you pull away from your opponent as you do it. Crossing up shields almost always ends with them behind you. Your goal when manipulating nair knockback is controlling the autolink angles in such a way that Mewtwo stays on one side of the target.

Edit #2: Actually, if you cross up while initially facing away they'll end right in front of you to grabbed or jabbed. So basically, if you're facing the opponent move back while nairing and vice-versa. Still not 100% but it helps. And of course this only applies on ground opponents.
 
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Sonicninja115

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So the key is to jump backwards when nairing people on the ground?

Edit: Did some testing of short-hop nairs and it seems to help in terms of followups if you pull away from your opponent as you do it. Crossing up shields almost always ends with them behind you. Your goal when manipulating nair knockback is controlling the autolink angles in such a way that Mewtwo stays on one side of the target.

Edit #2: Actually, if you cross up while initially facing away they'll end right in front of you to grabbed or jabbed. So basically, if you're facing the opponent move back while nairing and vice-versa. Still not 100% but it helps. And of course this only applies on ground opponents.
Ummm... Mewtwo is on the ground right behind sheik and they are both facing right. Mewtwo jumps straight up and Nairs, catching Shiek. Shiek will then be sent flying to the left allowing mewtwo to DJ Bair. If you do this scenario exactly the same, except with mewtwo in front, then shiek will be sent to the right, allowing Mewtwo to DJ Fair. When testing nair's KB I discovered this pattern, also, the opponent's DI will not affect this. I will soon be testing this in more detail. Such as trying to find a pattern in mewtwo moving right while using Nair. I hope this answered your question. I had a hard time understanding it.
 

meleebrawler

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Ummm... Mewtwo is on the ground right behind sheik and they are both facing right. Mewtwo jumps straight up and Nairs, catching Shiek. Shiek will then be sent flying to the left allowing mewtwo to DJ Bair. If you do this scenario exactly the same, except with mewtwo in front, then shiek will be sent to the right, allowing Mewtwo to DJ Fair. When testing nair's KB I discovered this pattern, also, the opponent's DI will not affect this. I will soon be testing this in more detail. Such as trying to find a pattern in mewtwo moving right while using Nair. I hope this answered your question. I had a hard time understanding it.
Well it seems your example involves optimizing followups from the final hit. Very different, fronm what I was testing, which was shorthops. The question was admittedly a knee-jerk response because of all the scenarios you listed the only one that results in the opponent being in front of Mewtwo has him facing away.

While this is very helpful in itself this isn't exactly what I wanted to know :p (What we were talking about in the other thread). The inconsistencies I cannot solve is "dropping" an opponent with a FF N-Air (landing before the last hit lands).



I am glad you did this and I don't mean to be a party pooper or anything. I just wanted to say that the combos I wrote on the other thread rely on FF the N-Air so this little info doesn't help them get more consistent. Still there is hope that someday we can find an 100% proof fire way of FF an N-Air at a specific moment that makes opponents land in front of Mewtwo.
I think the trick is not finding a specific moment of the attack but abusing the autolink's task of making the opponent follow Mewtwo. Look at nair as basically "hooking" yourself to the opponent and dragging him along. As you move in one direction the opponent follows behind, regardless of Mewtwo's orientation. So if you're moving towards your opponent while nairing, it's best to be facing backwards to increase the odds of them ending up in front of Mewtwo. And vice-versa if you're moving away.

Oh, and it works better if you move at full speed since otherwise your hooked target may dangle and move unpredictably.

With this in mind a "straight" nair (no left/right movement) is the hardest to predict.
 
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Sonicninja115

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Well it seems your example involves optimizing followups from the final hit. Very different, fronm what I was testing, which was shorthops. The question was admittedly a knee-jerk response because of all the scenarios you listed the only one that results in the opponent being in front of Mewtwo has him facing away.



I think the trick is not finding a specific moment of the attack but abusing the autolink's task of making the opponent follow Mewtwo. Look at nair as basically "hooking" yourself to the opponent and dragging him along. As you move in one direction the opponent follows behind, regardless of Mewtwo's orientation. So if you're moving towards your opponent while nairing, it's best to be facing backwards to increase the odds of them ending up in front of Mewtwo. And vice-versa if you're moving away.

Oh, and it works better if you move at full speed since otherwise your hooked target may dangle and move unpredictably.

With this in mind a "straight" nair (no left/right movement) is the hardest to predict.
I'm not sure you are quite understanding what I am saying... There are only 2 scenarios in which Mewtwo will be able to follow-up with a Fair. And they both Involve shiek and Mewtwo facing the same way with mewtwo in front. These are Full-Hop nairs that go straight up. without left or right movement. Also, a straight nair (no left/right movement) is what this is predicting.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am just trying to explain this method to you... I am also trying to find out a pattern for "dropping" the opponent, but I think that there may not be. However, I am confident that there is a pattern to moving left from a FH Nair and moving
right from a full hop nair.

I hope to be able to find a way to predict KB from which way you move, and I think I might be able to.
 

Aninymouse

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This got linked on Reddit. Bumping this because I didn't know this existed and I learned a lot from the OP.
 

Sonicninja115

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This got linked on Reddit. Bumping this because I didn't know this existed and I learned a lot from the OP.
I saw your post. I would like to encourage people to look at the version in the guide, as it is newer.

Also, the opponent can only DI out if the M2 messes up. You can counter their DI and it actually can help M2 as they will stay on the side that they DI towards easier and it will be more prominent.

The best thing to do is probably DI into Mewtwo to try and mess up his prediction, as M2 players can easily tell the direction by which side the opponent is on, but having the opponent be inside M2 makes it much harder to tell which way you are going to fly.
 

Murlough

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For some reason I have Nair -> Bair down to muscle memory, but I have never in my life landed Nair -> Fair.

I appreciate the guide though. Hopefully it'll help.
 

Sonicninja115

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For some reason I have Nair -> Bair down to muscle memory, but I have never in my life landed Nair -> Fair.

I appreciate the guide though. Hopefully it'll help.
Nair-Fair requires a backwards momentum with Mewtwo, something that is not done too often in a match.
 

LRodC

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I didn't know this existed until now. You should probably submit this as an actual guide on the site.

I figured there was some way to control n-air knockback, but I wasn't entirely sure. If there's a way to make it consistent all the time, this could potentially be pretty game changing, especially after 1.1.3 since it could potentially lead into down tilt or a grab.

I'll try a few things out since my n-air usage is pretty underdeveloped except for catching air dodges and gimping.
 
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Sonicninja115

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I didn't know this existed until now. You should probably submit this as an actual guide on the site.

I figured there was some way to control n-air knockback, but I wasn't entirely sure. If there's a way to make it consistent all the time, this could potentially be pretty game changing, especially after 1.1.3 since it could potentially lead into down tilt or a grab.

I'll try a few things out since my n-air usage is pretty underdeveloped except for catching air dodges and gimping.
I will fix it, add to it and adjust it. I will put some of my other stuff on hold for a bit to get this thing done with.

Okay, I adjusted it. If people could look it over and tell me if anything is missing that would be great. Chiroz Chiroz @Metalex @RichBrown @MewSquared @!Blue! What do you think? Did I miss anything? Incorrect info?
 
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Chiroz

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Are you sure these results are correct? I tested the 1st scenario 5 times and got the wrong result 2/5 times. How many times did you test each scenario?



Edit: Upon further testing on 3 other scenarios they also seem to randomly knock the opponent forward or backward, independent of facing. I don't think these tests are actually correct :S.



The only things I can confirm for sure is the fact that hitting a grounded opponent with only 1 hitbox of a FF N-Air will pop them into the air and the fact that if you're drifting at max speed towards a direction your opponent for sure will be knocked back on the opposite direction that you're moving towards.



Also - Confusion is an awesome follow up to N-Air at specific percents where getting an F-Air is impossible. You might also want to throw it out for mix ups, your opponent won't expect it most of the time so you can get an F-Air follow up (or even an U-Air combo follow up).
 
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Sonicninja115

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Are you sure these results are correct? I tested the 1st scenario 5 times and got the wrong result 2/5 times. How many times did you test each scenario?



Edit: Upon further testing on 3 other scenarios they also seem to randomly knock the opponent forward or backward, independent of facing. I don't think these tests are actually correct :S.



The only things I can confirm for sure is the fact that hitting a grounded opponent with only 1 hitbox of a FF N-Air will pop them into the air and the fact that if you're drifting at max speed towards a direction your opponent for sure will be knocked back on the opposite direction that you're moving towards.



Also - Confusion is an awesome follow up to N-Air at specific percents where getting an F-Air is impossible. You might also want to throw it out for mix ups, your opponent won't expect it most of the time so you can get an F-Air follow up (or even an U-Air combo follow up).
What sections are you referring to? The first section is debatable and probably isn't thoroughly tested. I tested each one five times at least, and the results were accurate. The main point of that first section is just to prove that it is possible to predict the KB. I will look into it more tomorrow. But I do know there is a pattern.

The first scenario is the only one dependent on the direction Mewtwo is facing. The others ones are legit to an extent.

Section two is badly explained. You DI forward to force your opponent behind you. At a certain point, you can DI in the opposite direction without any KB repercussions. DI'ing in the opposite direction at that point helps it to combo.

Section 3, didn't you prove that one? And that one is fact. I am assuming you are mainly referring to section one, but I will continue on for posterity.

Section 4
1 I need to change this a bit. The point of it is that this covers all the options. (Usually) if it sends in front of Mewtwo, the tip of Dtilt will hit, if it drops behind, Mewtwo will slide behind the opponent because of momentum, and get the base. This all depends on where you are when you land. (You need to be behind the opponent in order to cross-up.

2 I am going to combine one and two. They are basically the same thing.

Everything else is proven.

What are the hits that will knock the opponent up for Usmash?

I am not surprised about the first section. It was the first thing I labbed. Also, I like the new profile pic!
 
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Chiroz

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What sections are you referring to? The first section is debatable and probably isn't thoroughly tested. I tested each one five times at least, and the results were accurate. The main point of that first section is just to prove that it is possible to predict the KB. I will look into it more tomorrow. But I do know there is a pattern.

The first scenario is the only one dependent on the direction Mewtwo is facing. The others ones are legit to an extent.

Section two is badly explained. You DI forward to force your opponent behind you. At a certain point, you can DI in the opposite direction without any KB repercussions. DI'ing in the opposite direction at that point helps it to combo.

Section 3, didn't you prove that one? And that one is fact. I am assuming you are mainly referring to section one, but I will continue on for posterity.

Section 4
1 I need to change this a bit. The point of it is that this covers all the options. (Usually) if it sends in front of Mewtwo, the tip of Dtilt will hit, if it drops behind, Mewtwo will slide behind the opponent because of momentum, and get the base. This all depends on where you are when you land. (You need to be behind the opponent in order to cross-up.

2 I am going to combine one and two. They are basically the same thing.

Everything else is proven.

What are the hits that will knock the opponent up for Usmash?

I am not surprised about the first section. It was the first thing I labbed. Also, I like the new profile pic!

Section 2 depends on the speed you're travelling at, which is why at a certain point you can switch direction without KB repercussion because you won't drop below the required speed.

Section 3 is correct.

Section 4 could be revamped. With the -3 frames we got from patch 1.1.3, getting a followup from FF N-Air is now the norm instead of the exception. You could have the same info but just explain that now it's an actual thing the Mewtwo player should be aiming to do, instead of something that is (was) almost impossible to predict/perform.



Section 1 seems to be the core of the guide and doesn't seem to be accurate. That's the one I was referring to. As far as I can tell when you don't move at all the knockback seems to be random.

Once you move your speed and direction change many factors that decide the direction of the last KB. The opponent's DI also influences it btw. But moving at a high speed assures the opponent will be knocked out the other direction.




I honestly don't know the hits that knock the opponent into Up-Smash, I only know the timing to do it myself. I assumed it was either hit 3, 4 or 5 because it's one of the middle hitboxes and N-Air has 7 hits total. The very first hitbox does it too, and that one I am 100% sure.

Someone who knows how to break a video and check for things like this should probably lab it out.




Thanks about the picture :p.
 
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Sonicninja115

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Section 2 depends on the speed you're travelling at, which is why at a certain point you can switch direction without KB repercussion because you won't drop below the required speed.

Section 3 is correct.

Section 4 could be revamped. With the -3 frames we got from patch 1.1.3, getting a followup from FF N-Air is now the norm instead of the exception. You could have the same info but just explain that now it's an actual thing the Mewtwo player should be aiming to do, instead of something that is (was) almost impossible to predict/perform.



Section 1 seems to be the core of the guide and doesn't seem to be accurate. That's the one I was referring to. As far as I can tell when you don't move at all the knockback seems to be random.

Once you move your speed and direction change many factors that decide the direction of the last KB. The opponent's DI also influences it btw. But moving at a high speed assures the opponent will be knocked out the other direction.




I honestly don't know the hits that knock the opponent into Up-Smash, I only know the timing to do it myself. I assumed it was either hit 3, 4 or 5 because it's one of the middle hitboxes and N-Air has 7 hits total. The very first hitbox does it too, and that one I am 100% sure.

Someone who knows how to break a video and check for things like this should probably lab it out.




Thanks about the picture :p.
Okay, I will add those factors in. Did you read my thing on DI? I am pretty sure I explained it correctly, but did I miss something? The oppponent can DI, but not an any way that cannot be countered. And DI'ing actually can make it easier to read their KB. If they DI in is the best way as it makes their character overlap with Mewtwo and makes it a guessing/reaction game.
 

Chiroz

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Okay, I will add those factors in. Did you read my thing on DI? I am pretty sure I explained it correctly, but did I miss something? The oppponent can DI, but not an any way that cannot be countered. And DI'ing actually can make it easier to read their KB. If they DI in is the best way as it makes their character overlap with Mewtwo and makes it a guessing/reaction game.
I agree with your section on DI but I have no idea how to tell where my opponent is DIng mid-N-Air unless they are at the very corner of the attack.
 

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I don't really get much of what's being said in this thread but I'll just contribute by saying that Mewtwo's Neutral Air is awesome and by far my favorite move, not only of his, but of the entire roster. It's just so satisfying to land. You can interrupt so many things with it.

If only it dealt as much damage as it did in Melee...
 

Sonicninja115

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I don't really get much of what's being said in this thread but I'll just contribute by saying that Mewtwo's Neutral Air is awesome and by far my favorite move, not only of his, but of the entire roster. It's just so satisfying to land. You can interrupt so many things with it.

If only it dealt as much damage as it did in Melee...
I am working on making videos for each section.
 

Aninymouse

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If only it dealt as much damage as it did in Melee...
Man, that would be awesome.

I guess we'll see? Doesn't seem likely that we'll be getting new patches, let alone Mewtwo buffs, but a man can dream...
 

meleebrawler

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Man, that would be awesome.

I guess we'll see? Doesn't seem likely that we'll be getting new patches, let alone Mewtwo buffs, but a man can dream...
Aerials generally deal less damage in Smash 4 as a whole. Multihits in particular to compensate for newly added autolinks, such as Lucas's nair.
 
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BarSoapSoup

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Gah, my head is spinning after reading that! It's gonna take me a lot of practice to get the hang of this. :S

Luckily, I can start training with it tomorrow! Will do my best to implement it into my playstyle, since N-Air is one move I'd feel naked without when playing Mewtwo.
 
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