My problems with Project M.

[MrWeavile]

First off, I'll say before I star that my opinion on Project M as a whole is nothing but positive. It's a fantastic mod and I'm glad there are people who saw the problems with Brawl and worked on fixing them.
Well... Most of them.

There are some things in PM that I can't wrap my head around. Just things that I expected would be the first to be "fixed" and things I would assume would stay the same but didn't. I'll start off with the veteran fighters. Mario will be the first, since I just got confused at some of the stuff he possesses. As they said with Link, it seems as though they gave Mario "minor buffs". However overall it seems like they did a bit more than "minor".
I have yet to find another smash that can cancel his down smash. Not go through, just cancel it. It seems every smash contested with his uncharged down smash will cancel, yet Mario's will go through. With this being a very legitimate kill move, I don't understand how this could work in a character. One other thing I noticed is his moves cause a lot of block stun. By the time you lower you shield and counter attack, it seems as though he has time to shield which I can't wrap my head around. Unless a parry is used (save Mario's running normal with the active frames) it seems next to none of his attacks are punishable.

I think the next character will be well known: Snake. Anyone who played Brawl to any extensive degree will know how incredible Snake was, close enough to rival Meta Knight. And I expected him to be nerfed to at least some extent in PM. Which is where I got confused. It seems hardly any of Snake was changed. I won't say he's so good that he should be banned as Meta Knight was, but he's a character that can take out a hefty number of the cast. His explosives still have an unbelievable amount of smash power, to the point that mid 80% could potentially kill a character. The second problem I have is his controllable rocket. Like the mines, they have massive amounts of smash power and in a 4 player duke-out, it seems only slightly cheap to stay out of the fray and get 1-3 kills with a single move.
Finally it's his recovery. I do like the fact that he is no longer invincible with his U.B, but I expected it to b nerfed in the time it's out. The way it is, it seems he is unable to be killed downwards. The speed and the latency of the move is just something I don't understand.

Don't take this as someone wining or trolling. Just a few things I don't understand about the game. As I said, Project M is a fantastic mod and I'll continue to play it. I just hope someone can shed some light on these problems I have.

 

[Aenglaan]

I disagree with what you state about Snake. At first, it may appear only a few of his moves were changed, but he almost feels like an entirely different character now. His game is now less about charging head-on with his opponent(s) and more about being strategic and taking into account his mines and C4.

 

[CyberZixx]

I agree that Mario is super duper good. One of the best, free. Snake on the other hand I don't think is that up there. Yeah, he has kill power and great stage control but it's not instant. He has to set that up. I can see the rocket being extremely good in 4 player, but the game is not balanced around that mode, but tournament rulesets. His recovery is good and it makes him hard to gimp but duing it he's free to any number of attacks. Abuse that to rack up %.

 

[Giygacoal]

Here's my $0.02:

You have to think about the characters' viability in proportions; just because X character was hardly changed from Brawl to Melee doesn't mean the character will hold up the same way in Project M- maybe better, or maybe worse. Also, Melee and Project M style combat is conceptually more powerful overall than Brawl combat, so the fighting aptitude standards are generally much higher to begin with (recovery is also generally a lot harder).

Mario is a well-balanced character for sure. You just need to learn how to properly implement your shield in the play. Learn your character's out-of-shield options. Every character in the demo right now could at least jump out of shield and grab out of shield, and Bowser can do stuff like Up-B. Also, if Mario ends up using his shield, there's still a lot you can do. That's your chance to do a shield pressure. Mario's good, but he's certainly not the most threatening character in the aspects you're describing.

Snake can only have one grenade out at a time now. That change alone implies that this Snake requires more skilled micromanagement than the old one. You also said that Snake's explosives still have high power; true, but that doesn't mean the explosives are "overpowered". Pure knockout power is only one factor. When Snake does side-b, he has quite a bit of startup lag, and he's committed to being in a crouching position while the missile is being controlled. Compare to Ganondorf's up-tilt, which is very strong, but it's not considered overpowered because it's slow and requires so much commitment. As for whether the explosives are strong enough to get 1-3 kills in a "cheap" way in a 4-player match, it's either you're a bad player for just killing your partner, your opponents are so bad that they stay in one place long enough to BOTH get hit by one explosive, or you're playing a free-for-all (in which case, Project M's effort to balance doesn't matter nearly as much, and ALL your opponents are so bad that they all get hit by one explosive at the same time, and in such a scenario, they would have to be standing right next to each other and not even knocking each other around in order to be close enough to all get killed in one hit.) Also, the explosives are actually hard to hit skilled opponents with. As for whether the explosives can kill at 80%, I highly doubt that's true on most "legal-style" stages in the game, and adequate DI should make it even more unlikely. Also, when you consider Snake is up against Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Sonic, it's hard to consider him overpowered. He's actually one of the more fair opponents in the game. Also, Brawl Snake's Up-B isn't invincible; it instead has armor.

TL;DR: Learn the matchups and techniques to get good at the game. To be honest, a skilled enough player could make anyone on the roster (even Squirtle) seem overpowered by the fairly rudimentary criteria you're giving us. If you just play free-for-alls, though, there's nothing we could do to help you because 4-player free-for-alls are inherently full of s*** and there's no actual balance, just luck.

 

[ELI-mination]

And not a word about Fox or Falco, as if they're okay or something.

 

[Shadic]

As they said with Link, it seems as though they gave Mario "minor buffs". However overall it seems like they did a bit more than "minor".
I have yet to find another smash that can cancel his down smash. Not go through, just cancel it. It seems every smash contested with his uncharged down smash will cancel, yet Mario's will go through.

In both Melee and Brawl, moves within 9% of eachother will clank. This is unchanged in Project M.

One other thing I noticed is his moves cause a lot of block stun. By the time you lower you shield and counter attack, it seems as though he has time to shield which I can't wrap my head around. Unless a parry is used (save Mario's running normal with the active frames) it seems next to none of his attacks are punishable.

Shieldstun is based on damage percent. So either you're playing a Mario with absolutely fantastic spacing, in a poor matchup, or you're not acting out of shield well enough. Doesn't sound like you're shieldgrabbing either, which is extremely powerful at lower levels of play.

I think the next character will be well known: Snake. Anyone who played Brawl to any extensive degree will know how incredible Snake was, close enough to rival Meta Knight.

He's currently fifth on the Brawl Tier List under Metaknight, Olimar, Diddy, and Ice Climbers.

And I expected him to be nerfed to at least some extent in PM. Which is where I got confused. It seems hardly any of Snake was changed

1. One grenade (from two) that has a significantly smaller blast radius.
2. Generally weaker tilts, and the removal of one of the most stupidly designed moves of the game. (His Utilt)
3. No armor on his UpB.
4. Dash attack/DACUS that doesn't cover half of the stage.
5. Easy combo weight/decent combo speed in a game where combos are more relevant.
6. Sub-par movement speed and maneuverability in a game where movement options are king.

I won't say he's so good that he should be banned as Meta Knight was, but he's a character that can take out a hefty number of the cast. His explosives still have an unbelievable amount of smash power, to the point that mid 80% could potentially kill a character.

His explosives are only going to kill at 80% on smaller stages and when you're either off stage or close to the top of the stage. If they weren't killing at lowish percents in those situations, they wouldn't kill you until like 300% from the middle of the stage, either.

The second problem I have is his controllable rocket. Like the mines, they have massive amounts of smash power and in a 4 player duke-out, it seems only slightly cheap to stay out of the fray and get 1-3 kills with a single move.

Should take more than three Nikitas (His Side-B) to KO. And the game was generally designed/balanced for 1 on 1 combat.

Finally it's his recovery. I do like the fact that he is no longer invincible with his U.B, but I expected it to b nerfed in the time it's out. The way it is, it seems he is unable to be killed downwards. The speed and the latency of the move is just something I don't understand.

The move sends you up quicker, but has a significantly shorter duration. It should be recovering slightly less vertically than it did in Brawl, and quite a bit less horizontally.

 

[Phaiyte]

And not a word about Fox or Falco, as if they're okay or something.

Well yeah, they kinda are.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I agree with Mario, not Snake though

 

[JTsm]

lol at snake being broken.

Eli says it all except Fox is bad.

 

[trash?]

Well yeah, they kinda are.

If mario is "too good", then the spacies are the lord and saviors of the immortal. They are still widely better than the rest of the cast in MUs, and if anyone tries to say that any other character is "broken", they better damn well acknowledge that maybe keeping the zero-to-death one-frame traps wasn't a good idea first.

 

[GP&B]

My problem with Project M is that Kirby is virtually unplayable.

 

[ELI-mination]

Well yeah, they kinda are.

Well no, they kinda aren't.
The right to complain or even SLIGHTLY criticize other characters' design flaws goes out the window when you imply that spacies are somehow well designed and an example to follow.

LIKE. *thumbs up*

 

[Phaiyte]

If mario is "too good", then the spacies are the lord and saviors of the immortal. They are still widely better than the rest of the cast in MUs, and if anyone tries to say that any other character is "broken", they better damn well acknowledge that maybe keeping the zero-to-death one-frame traps wasn't a good idea first.

When the **** have I ever in my life said anything about Mario at all? I've never been close to saying anyone was "broken" either, because that doesn't exist in this game. Take your nerd rage somewhere else.

 

[Kally Wally]

When the **** have I ever in my life said anything about Mario at all? I've never been close to saying anyone was "broken" either, because that doesn't exist in this game. Take your nerd rage somewhere else.

You don't have an avatar. The OP doesn't have an avatar. Don't blame people for mixing you up.

 

[Phaiyte]

You don't have an avatar. The OP doesn't have an avatar. Don't blame people for mixing you up.

Oh I'm sorry. I completely forgot that I was in a very text based section of the internet where reading is supposed to be a thing.

 

[leelue]

Part A - When the **** have I ever in my life said anything about Mario at all? I've never been close to saying anyone was "broken" either, because that doesn't exist in this game.

Part B - Oh I'm sorry. I completely forgot that I was in a very text based section of the internet where reading is supposed to be a thing.

Part C - Take your nerd rage somewhere else.

Yeah, ok guy.

Also, in response to part B, Some people keep track of posting by avatar. I didn't know until 3 minutes ago that "?" was the symol for no avatar. It's reasonable for someone to get that mixed up. Calm the hell down.
------


Mr Weavle, what character do you play? Also listen to Shadic on this one.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Woah, wait, I'm not saying I think Mario needs to be nerfed, I ******* hate fighting him but I think he's fine, I think everyone else needs to be brought up to his level, and I don't think he's far off from the spacies level, but you know that's just my opinion

 

[Lex Jewthor]

My problem with Project M is that Kirby is virtually unplayable.

And yet he's STILL more playable than melee Kirby was. Fancy that. =P

 

[NinjaFoxX]

i just want Yoshi to be broken as hell...

 

[Deleted member]

mario is maybe a tad worse than fox/falco, but definitely in the same tier.

my problem with project m:

the entire character.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Sonic is such a gay character.

 

[leelue]

They should really get someone who understands the character at a molecular level to come in and revamp the character. Because idk, 3 failed versions in a row is kinda tough.

 

[CyberZixx]

What would even be done to sonic to keep him solid but not obnoxious?

 

[Spiffykins]

Sonic is such a gay character.

When I think of (hopefully) gay Ultra Smoosh Sibling characters, only one comes to mind...

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/176/0/b/marth__s_hair_stroke_by_origami170-d3jyaed.jpg

Maybe what you meant to say was "bad". Maybe you should try saying that instead.

edit: okay, i swear i tried to make that smaller.

 

[leelue]

What would even be done to sonic to keep him solid but not obnoxious?

Good place to start? Beat his dashdance with a nerf stick and throw silly add-ons like blast attack and a variable speed Dair out the window.
Options are not always a good thing.
There are a few different ways you can tackle spindashing being super free and obnoxious, but I don't know how effective each one would be while still keeping the move as a signature of the character.

 

[HyperrCrow]

What would even be done to sonic to keep him solid but not obnoxious?

Tie weights to his feet

 

[Jolteon]

Tie weights to his feet

 

[SpiderMad]

Seems I wasn't the only kid to get no enjoyment from that game

 

[Spiffykins]

Good place to start? Beat his dashdance with a nerf stick and throw silly add-ons like blast attack and a variable speed Dair out the window.
Options are not always a good thing.
There are a few different ways you can tackle spindashing being super free and obnoxious, but I don't know how effective each one would be while still keeping the move as a signature of the character.

We could start by not letting him shield out of it. I'll be sorely disappointed if that isn't removed in the next release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w3aUxi_P6ZI#t=33s

 

[Kink-Link5]

What would even be done to sonic to keep him solid but not obnoxious?

Taking out the whole spin2win design would be a nice place to start. Couple that obnoxiousness with priority on things like nair and fair and the whole match becomes a constant stream of REEE REEE REEE REEE.

 

[Vashimus]

Will people ever LIKE facing Sonic?

 

[trash?]

Probably not. There's no way to use that massive speed and make it anything other than for the purposes of annoyance without making him far too good for any reasonable metagame to flourish. You try anything else, you're either making a broken character, or you're making a character that isn't sonic.

 

[oksas]

solution: replace him with robotnik

 

[JacopeX]

LOL @ this thread's direction.

As long as they keep Sonic's aerials the way they are and not do **** to his neutral and side b, it's whatever.

Making down b punishable on block and getting stopped by a shield is a start but I can still do my wave dash/spin game which is what I use it for. I have to admit though spin dash into homing attack is kinda gay. But if you spot dodge it, I can get blown up big time so it's not so bad.

 

[Jolteon]

Eggman is pretty fast, man.

 

[Vashimus]

inb4 "On the topic of Sonic hate" thread.

 

[Kink-Link5]

On the Reee of reee

reeeeee

 

[CyberZixx]

As someone who played a lot of sonic the hedgehog 2 I actually like the sound effect. Very authentic. Best thing about his character.

 

[leelue]

There's no way to use that massive speed and make it anything other than for the purposes of annoyance without making him far too good for any reasonable metagame to flourish..

If you slow the acceleration on his run, he won't be able to weave like a loom

 

[9bit_alt]

Replace Sonic's slot with Geno.

He really never should have been in the game anyway. Just another tactic to generate buzz. Remember how bad that Mario vs Sonic at the Olympics game was? Bad idea. The two should never mix!