MU Thread : Vs Lucina (Maybe Marth?)

[~Rainbow Mika]

So, if there's one character besides Sheik or Zero Spamus that always come in FG (at least when i play), is Lucina the waifu.

So what to do against her?

1. First of all, keep your agressiveness at minimum, she can counter you and that's pretty annoying to deal, if you make a grab and go to an uair, she will counter you, if you try to chase her out of stage with an fair, counter, the objective is to lure her into thinking that you will attack her so she will activate it, only to get a grab or a charged smash! If ypu dthrown her and she don't counter, prepare for her dair.
2. There are Shieldbreaker spammers, a lot of them, so keep your space when she tries to do it, and after it fails, grab or egg lay is your friend! Remember, if you have a good timing, you can perfect shield it and punish it.
3. Take care of her usmash if you try to ground pound or go for an aerial, swords beats most of yoshi attacks, so keep an eye about it, also, don't be too close, since it still catchs you.
4. Her Fsmash is also a deal, it can connect if you're above her and send you flying to your death.
5. Egg Throw works really well against her, so use it, if she counter eggs, don't go for a dash attack.
6. Since her recovery isn't that good, you can use nair,eggs or bair to gimp her, take your timing or you'll be countered.
7. Egg Lay is good against her also, but first look at how much time take her to break free before attacking, since she can dodge, counter or fair you.

As for Marth, most of the Marths i've played plays the same as Lucina, except the tipper gimmick is really painful with his smashes, so don't be in the air that much.

Other than that, the key is Punish, most of her/his attacks leaves with long recovery frames, and that's when you take action and go for grabs, lays or aerials.

If someone has other options or some corrections, let me know, we must do our best against the waifu invasion

 

[Nikes]

Cool work here, great to see the initiative

When you say we shouldnt dash attack when she counters an egg, we could probably still get away with it if we delay the dash attack by buffering it and throwing out the timing with correct spacing, otherwise a dash grab or maybe even a well timed Dair should do fine to punish.
Landing against Lucina/Marth is still hard cause 20 Uairs, and they can read our ledge roll and Fsmash.

 

[Boshi PV]

I have found that a delayed DA against a counter happy Lucina/Marth will actually send us past the counter completely, after that I usually follow up with an egg toss to set up a quick juggle. Once I get them off stage I tend to just egg toss them if I know a counter is coming, if the egg toss happens to be spaced well enough for a Fair spike I take that option if not I bait it by immediatly fading back after jumping toward them. The few Marth/Lucinas I have played tend to try to dolphin that approach. if they miss, which usually happens they get punished by a juggle. That is how I've delt with the counter happy ones at least. Though this is just For Glory experience.

 

[Shiri]

Pressing anything when you can visually confirm someone countering eggs doesn't seem smart.

It seems unnecessary and risky; just being honest.

I think if you see someone countering, the smart thing to do is to stop, wait for the counter to activate and then punish during recovery frames. I can't think of any reason to press buttons on counters.

 

[jeck95]

Egg lay and grab is great against counters. If they go for it a lot, you can bait it as well. Marth and lucina have more range than yoshi but yoshi can either close the distance well or camp them out. Spacing and air mobility is important in this matchup(s) for yoshi. The most important thing is to punish hard and if they are off the stage, keep them off. There aren't many marths or lucinas out there so I only played against one marth and lucina so far tbh.

 

[~Rainbow Mika]

Like i sayed, the main thing in this match is take your time, and punish.
Counter is a pain in the @5$ to deal, but if you take your time, is the greatest chance for Yoshi to deal damage with grabs or lays, Shieldbreaker happy players are the same, trick them and make your move. There's some players that go for the dancing blade thing also, don't panic if you're close, just shield and you're set (and look if they do the full attack or just the 2nd part).

As for egg countering, best thing is to keep yourself in the same spot and keep tossing eggs, most sure is they will fail the counter or get annoyed and go for a dash attack.

 

[chipndip]

Organized response:

1) If she wants to counter an off-stage chase, eat her/him instead. Get back on the stage and DON'T FORGET TO DOWN/UP TAUNT. Most important part, I swear.

2) Use a crap ton of eggs to annoy the crap out of her/him. Short hopping is gonna dodge any shield break, but not a f-smash. Good thing Shield Breaker doesn't KO like it used to, even at a full charge.

3) Yes, don't approach her from directly above. To be fair, our u-smash is also invincible on our feet, and our u-air is pretty quick and leads into itself 2-3 times at low/mid-percentages. Getting approached from below is usually bad no matter how you slice it.

4) See 2.

5) If you hit her with an egg, that's a combo opportunity at relatively high percentages. You can follow up an egg with something to finish her off with if you're fast enough. Usually an u-air or n-air.

6) See 5 and 1, but yea, dat counter. Probably less likely to happen when they're farther away from the ledge since they still have to move and the counter stops horizontal momentum.

7) Any egg lay at over 100% is just almost guaranteed. Some people do break out every so often, but after 100%-110%, I'd start fishing for it here and there.

Me personally) If you get the spot dodge on the f-smash and you got them at about 120%, or around 100% while you're relatively high too, immediate Yoshi Bomb. If you block the dash attack and the above is true, immediate Yoshi Bomb (unless they tipped it, in which case they're probably far away). More knock back than u-smash and d-smash, but hits people in your face unlike f-smash. Just try to avoid getting too Yoshi Bomb happy. Part of improving one's game with Yoshi is learning this move, and the other part is making sure you don't spam it. Getting that through my head improved my play a good deal.

Also, I don't think Egg Lay is a great punish. You could just grab 'em. Maybe Egg Lay itself does more than like, 5% now and I didn't notice, but if not, I wouldn't punish with it.

 

[Yaddl]

After getting some significant buffs, Marth and Lucina are both seeing some more use as of late, and are much bigger threats. Personally, I've been having trouble with Marth's increased range and I find the matchup pretty difficult, but that's probably because I've never really played a skilled Marth until people started picking him up now that he's, well, good. What are everybody's thoughts on the "new" matchup(s)?

 

[100AngryTurtles]

I thought they were already hard to deal with pre-patch due to the disjoints. The buffs to both of them, especially the slight range buffs of Marth's tipper make the match up difficult. I find it hard to get in because of their range, but once I do it is easy to combo them. If they can't power shield eggs consistently then I think we can just camp them till kill percents.

 

[muddykips]

the thing is though, they don't even need to powershield that much. when they run, they do that naruto thing where they're low to the ground, which helps them just go under eggs. not to mention they can swat eggs away with falchion.

decreased lag on moves is one thing, and disjoint range increase is DEFINITELY another, but i think what i'm most worried about is the damage increase. it's hard enough to get in on a marth that knows what they're doing, and slapping increased damage on top of a larger tipper hitbox means that in addition to making it even harder to get in, we'll have less attempts available before they get us to kill%. offstage situations seem like they're gonna be especially devastating imo.

in any case, i already considered marth/lucina our worst matchup, which nobody ever agreed with me on, so now im hoping people might be more open to the idea of them being horrible for us :^)

 

[Lightsoul]

After getting some significant buffs, Marth and Lucina are both seeing some more use as of late, and are much bigger threats. Personally, I've been having trouble with Marth's increased range and I find the matchup pretty difficult, but that's probably because I've never really played a skilled Marth until people started picking him up now that he's, well, good. What are everybody's thoughts on the "new" matchup(s)?

Ya both are annoying to deal with but are not impossible to beat. I find Corrin more annoying to deal with than either Marth or Lucina since he/she has other tools in the box but that is getting off topic.

Marth and Lucina are annoying though the air and you/we have to anti-air them with Up-Tilt or egg toss. Some after so many failed attempts might begin to attack on the ground which is where Yoshi/we thrive at against them since Yoshi/we are quicker and have alot of good ground opinions. Dash Attack, a semi-tether grab, and ground egg toss all are good for mixing it up and keeping Marth/Lucina on their toes. Do not let them make you play their game since spacing is the key and the only want to deal with a true spacer is to pressure them and keep them on the run.

Thoughts or add on's?

 

[Delta-cod]

Is there a problem with shielding vs. the Blue haired wonders? Their hitboxes don't really autocancel (Except rising Bair?), so it kinda forces them to be grounded, where we can then try to beat them with Fair or jab or something.

I feel like exploring shield is key to this MU, now that we have the ability to use it. In Brawl I found not being able to shield their aerials a real killer. Now we can, their landings should be made a living hell for them.

 

[Yaddl]

Shielding the landing is a great idea. Just gotta make sure not to get hit by a B-reversed shieldbreaker.

 

[Delta-cod]

To my knowledge, that move will not pop shields in one hit if they're full, so we can still afford to be a little liberal with shield usage.

 

[Genma316]

I'd recommend a very egg heavy game for Lucina(and Marth) their aerials can eat throw the eggs yes, but they'll be spending a lot of time in the air and their aerials have a good amount of end lag. One or two eggs to convince them to approach and punish the fair or nair(that's all it will be). We shouldn't have to much problem on the ground even though we get out spaced, we've got the speed and frame data to make up for it. So long as we don't get caught reaching they won't have an opportunity to go for the counter.