MU Thread v2 | PM 3.5 Ness Matchup Discussion |

[~tgm_Zeej]

Usmash is for swag. Uair and even utilt are almost always better options. Usmash does work though, especially if they don't know the DI for it.

 

[jalued]

Usmash is for swag. Uair and even utilt are almost always better options. Usmash does work though, especially if they don't know the DI for it.

Haha i guess i just play for the swag then :D

I've never really tried uptllt cause the hitbox seems so small

 

[CaptinMoses]

I DJC Up Air, up throwing Fox leads to up airs for days, imo a better option than the yo yo, but I've never had any luck with it, so it could just be that I suck

 

[CaptinMoses]

I DJC Up Air, up throwing Fox leads to up airs for days, imo a better option than the yo yo, but I've never had any luck with it, so it could just be that I suck

 

[CaptinMoses]

Yeah, I always have much more success with Up Airs, How does the Yo Yo beat UpAirs? Up air for dayzzzz

 

[Mean Green]

This isn't on topic but it's relevant.. I'm wondering, why discuss one MU per week? That's 41 weeks until you get around to the last MU. I saw a post from August at the top of page 9. Maybe you can keep the discussions flowing by allowing daily changes? Or allow a change every 5-10 posts?

 

[jalued]

Talking of which: Link

In 3.02 he had a massive advantage over Ness (from previous discussions). How have the changes to him affected the matchup? He is now less defensive but has a better aggressive combo game. His recovery is also significantly worse so Ness can now edgeguard him.

60:40 Link?

 

[Bryonato]

This isn't on topic but it's relevant.. I'm wondering, why discuss one MU per week? That's 41 weeks until you get around to the last MU. I saw a post from August at the top of page 9. Maybe you can keep the discussions flowing by allowing daily changes? Or allow a change every 5-10 posts?

I feel like discussion is really disorganized this way. You might have 2 or 3 people talking about Lucas one day and then have the conversation shift to Luigi or something, but then a guy comes in and sees the Lucas discussion from the day before and still wants to chime in about that during the Luigi discussion.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

So, I played some games against one of our local Fox players, and I almost think this MU is close to even with the right stage bans. Fox wins the neutral, but not by as big of a gap as I once thought.

Vids should be up soon, I'll post them as soon as they are.

 

[Boiko]

So, I played some games against one of our local Fox players, and I almost think this MU is close to even with the right stage bans. Fox wins the neutral, but not by as big of a gap as I once thought.

Vids should be up soon, I'll post them as soon as they are.

My personal choices are FD, GHZ, Smashville, and DL. I don't like top platforms because uair. I personally think the MU is 55-45 Fox.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

My personal choices are FD, GHZ, Smashville, and DL. I don't like top platforms because uair. I personally think the MU is 55-45 Fox.

All good stages, for sure. I don't really mind top plats against Fox though, just because it mitigates the threat of uthrow-> uair as a damage builder somewhat.

In a 3 ban system, I usually ban Lylat, PS2, and either WW or Yoshi's Story depending on whether or not I think they're confident in WarioWare as a CP or not. Definitely don't like Fox on that stage.

 

[Player -0]

I feel like DL gives Fox too much space to move around. You basically want Fox to approach you and catch him out of it.

 

[Boiko]

I feel like DL gives Fox too much space to move around. You basically want Fox to approach you and catch him out of it.

It also gives you room to move around so you don't need to deal with the constant pressure of nair shine on your shield. Plus, the large open space in the middle and the height of the top platform allow for the up throw chains into uair/utilts.

All good stages, for sure. I don't really mind top plats against Fox though, just because it mitigates the threat of uthrow-> uair as a damage builder somewhat.

In a 3 ban system, I usually ban Lylat, PS2, and either WW or Yoshi's Story depending on whether or not I think they're confident in WarioWare as a CP or not. Definitely don't like Fox on that stage.

Most tournaments I go to, KTAR included, do a two stage ban system with these stages:
Starters:
GHZ, BF, FD, PS2, Smashville
CP:
Distant Planet, DL, Yoshi's Melee, Yoshi's Brawl, Warioware, Fountain

I always end up on Smashville or GHZ (or FD if they're a dummy). After that my bans are usually Yoshi's Melee and PS2 or Warioware, depending on how the first match went. I don't mind PS2 so much since the up smash nerf, so I may just go back to banning Yoshi's Melee and Warioware. I also really don't like Yoshi's brawl, period. If I know I'm going to win, I ban it because I just don't want to go there.

 

[Mean Green]

I feel like discussion is really disorganized this way. You might have 2 or 3 people talking about Lucas one day and then have the conversation shift to Luigi or something, but then a guy comes in and sees the Lucas discussion from the day before and still wants to chime in about that during the Luigi discussion.

Oh ok. It's just that I've noticed in the Tier List Speculation thread, the problem seems to work itself out, where everyone gets replied to. But I guess your way's probably for the best in a thread like this.

 

[Bryonato]

I always ALWAYS ban Lylat vs Fox if the stage is legal. He's such a beast on that stage

 

[Akhenderson]

My favorite stages against Fox are GHZ, Smashville, Final Destination and PS2. Bans should be Yoshi's Island Brawl and Lylat because bleghhhhh.
The match up feels like it's 55-45 or 60-40 in favor of Fox.

 

[Bryonato]

PS2 eh? I always tend to shy away from there vs most any spacie. IMO Fox is godlike there

 

[Akhenderson]

I like PS2 for the sole fact that it feels pretty much like Smashville except the platforms are in consistent locations rather than moving around.

 

[Boiko]

If you don't mind dying at 90 to uair, PS2 isn't super bad. I like there being very little platform interaction, so the moving ones on GHZ and Smashville are great.

 

[Yashichi]

How well can USmash hanging off the ledge be used to edge guard a Fox on stages where he can't ride up a wall? Smashville, Battlefield, PS2, etc. Nobody I play against can really do anything about this, but is it a safe option? I wouldn't want to go into a tourney and get punished heavily because of it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I don't really fear Fox so much on PS2, but I wouldn't want to let him go there on the first game either. I generally ban it if I know the opposing player won't switch characters, but I'll leave it open if I know they have secondaries.

@ Yashichi
I'm not a huge fan of hanging yoyos off the ledge to gimp Fox, but it's not really unsafe if you know they're going for the ledge. I would recommend using dsmash as a mix up if that's your strategy though, as if they miss the tech, they're in an extremely bad spot.

 

[Player -0]

If he's at certain spots you can but typically ledgehog is better.

 

[Soft Serve]

If you know the sweetspot range yourself, you can just charge a dsmash if they aren't going to sweetspot, and hit them as they come up. If they sweetspot just WD grab the ledge.

You can learn the sweetspot distances with the cpu foxes, they always sweetspot

 

[SoniCraft]

Rising nairs and dairs are always a safe yet effective option for edgeguarding Fox. And then if you want to hold the ledge, a LJC aerial to punish any landing should work in some cases. Of course you should always look for the side b's onto platforms, in which case waveland to bthrow/fthrow would be good if your fast enough, or dair to bair is always solid as well.

Question: Is there any standard way of dealing or working around Fox's shine pressure? I feel like there's something I'm missing when it comes to that part of Fox, not just with Ness.

100th post! :D

 

[Soft Serve]

Rising nairs and dairs are always a safe yet effective option for edgeguarding Fox. And then if you want to hold the ledge, a LJC aerial to punish any landing should work in some cases. Of course you should always look for the side b's onto platforms, in which case waveland to bthrow/fthrow would be good if your fast enough, or dair to bair is always solid as well.

Question: Is there any standard way of dealing or working around Fox's shine pressure? I feel like there's something I'm missing when it comes to that part of Fox, not just with Ness.

100th post! :D

Learn their pressure habits, you can roll away out of anything that isn't frame perfect double shine (you can buffer a roll out of multi shines )
just don't get predictable because if they read a roll they will just punish you.
The best work around to his pressure is don't get cornered and don't shield.

 

[SoniCraft]

Ok so basically I need to make buffering rolls a habit.

Anyone in favor of moving on to another MU? It's been longer than a week, and I want to discuss MUs that may be different now because of 3.5, such as Ganondorf or Diddy.

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy talk pls
I could write pages on what to do vs diddy, how to DI, how to shut down his nuetral, etc. I think we talked about him in 3.02 but 3.5 diddy has a much different game plan and the counterplay to him is easier/more effective

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

So, all in favor of calling this one a standard 6:4 for Fox, and moving on?

 

[SoniCraft]

Aye.

I liked your post as a vote.

 

[EarthboundHero]

If you time it right. Fox will up B right into you neutral b

 

[Bryonato]

Cool. I'll make a quick strawpoll for the new discussion based on what I've seen in here and in the Skype group.

pls vote!

http://strawpoll.me/3117924

 

[CaptinMoses]

Gannon discussion? Get hypee

 

[EarthboundHero]

I'd rather see an Ike discussion.

I need help with that match up. I can't but help but just be punished by any slip up by a good Ike.Just pure combo bait.

 

[ilysm]

Ganon seems like a solid plan as of right now, considering the fact that 3.5 has changed him significantly in a few ways that may affect the matchup. Has anyone got experience with a good 3.5 Ganon yet?

 

[Bryonato]

Results are pretty clear. Finally time for Ganon! I'll start updating the thread accordingly.

 

[CaptinMoses]

The only thinks I have any luck with facing Gannon is F-Throw into gimps. D throw set up for fair/nair depending on DI, and Mag has a ton of mileage in the MU, best one mistake and I get combo'd hard I'll be streaming tonight, so I'll try to get some footage

 

[SoniCraft]

Ganon also seems to have a swell time edgeguarding Ness, and float might just make that a bit easier for him. Or that brand new reflect cape. Or heck, maybe even his taunt sword if he times it right with how far that thing goes.

 

[Soft Serve]

60/40 ness on most stages, easy. Just ban Yoshi's melee/Warioware/GHZ.

Ganon didn't really gain anything that actually helps him in neutral. Both characters still blow each other up, but that's common in like every PM MU. Float is good and useful, but its still a commitment. If he tries to approach with it you know he has to throw out an aerial or burn his double jump, all of which can be avoided and punished, beat out with fair, or give up stage control.

Just like, play well. Idk, Ganon definitely has range on Ness but that doesn't matter much when he doesn't have the mobility to go along with it. Just don't try to challenge his moves unless you really started early and hit him during wind-up. If he fairs your shield, he will do one of a couple things. If he likes to jab/tilt, just keep shielding. His grab range is too small to get grabs unless he was right ontop of you. Spot dodge side-bs, and shield down-bs on reaction.

 

[Boiko]

60/40 ness on most stages, easy. Just ban Yoshi's melee/Warioware/GHZ.

Ganon didn't really gain anything that actually helps him in neutral. Both characters still blow each other up, but that's common in like every PM MU. Float is good and useful, but its still a commitment. If he tries to approach with it you know he has to throw out an aerial or burn his double jump, all of which can be avoided and punished, beat out with fair, or give up stage control.

Just like, play well. Idk, Ganon definitely has range on Ness but that doesn't matter much when he doesn't have the mobility to go along with it. Just don't try to challenge his moves unless you really started early and hit him during wind-up. If he fairs your shield, he will do one of a couple things. If he likes to jab/tilt, just keep shielding. His grab range is too small to get grabs unless he was right ontop of you. Spot dodge side-bs, and shield down-bs on reaction.

This is honestly all you need in terms of neutrals. This MU isn't that hard and Ganon didn't gain much.

As far as edge guarding goes, you can do yo-yo drops to force him to recover low. Also, invincible ledge drop rising nair/dair kind of murders him. If he's going to side b, you can just jump out and nair/magnet him or just grab ledge. If he's off stage at >40% he should be dead.

Recovering is tough because he can just spam fairs at the ledge, do your best to speet spot or recover high and use your weave to get around his uair. Ganon likes stages with platforms, and you generally don't want to be on a platform above him. Always ban Yoshi's Melee and Warioware. If your tournament allows three bans, I would say get rid of Yoshi's brawl over GHZ. Sure it has big blast zones, but support ghosts can give Ganon an easier time recovering, and when the MU is so gimp heavy, you don't want to do that. Also, it's just a generally bad stage for Ness.

Most stages are good for Ness here, so it's kind of a matter of preference (besides the two mentioned bans, don't go there.)

Although Ganon is somewhat floaty, he is generally combo food for Ness, especially at low percents. Dthrow>fair>mag>uair puts on almost 40% right away. You just want to build enough damage to get him off stage and then knock him out of his recovery distance.

A lot of his moves are safe on shield, so be careful. If he fairs your shield, expect either a jab or an ftilt to follow up depending on his range. If your far enough away you can try to WD OoS.

As Soft Serve said, spot dodge side b, shield down b. If you're caught with side b, tech behind him, as I believe that's the only way to avoid guaranteed follow ups.

Really, with Ganon, it comes down to baiting his moves and punishing the egregious end/start lag. Don't try to trade, he has great range. Just weave around and when he goes for that fair, punish the end/start lag with a fair>grab of your own.

Edit: 60:40 Ness

 

[Player -0]

I agree that Ganon still gets smacked neutral by Ness. Just space well and don't give up stage position. PKF can push him offstage. When weaving with DJC be careful or you can eat a Wizard Foot.

Gabon gets minor DJC stuff with his hover mechanic. It's really cool.