CaptinMoses
Smash Cadet
I'd like Ganon, like I said before, I think I struggle with it more than I should
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MU Thread v2 | PM 3.5 Ness Matchup Discussion |
- Thread starter Bryonato
- Start date
Bryonato
Green Hat
Vote here please!
http://strawpoll.me/2432234
http://strawpoll.me/2432234
I'll actually have things to contribute if it's fox lol
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i wasn't here for the lucas discussion but i read through some of it and there's some anti-lucas tech y'all might have missed
nairing in place will destroy pk freeze, so if you don't wanna risk absorbing it, just do that in the neutral game if you're not ready to approach
whoever said "harass with PKT and let him have the ledge" might be missing out on some edge guarding technology, so here's a tip:
lucas will pretty much always tether, so you can actually charge a usmash or dsmash off the ledge so that the yoyo dips down below the stage. this will very often knock tethers off the stage and even semi-spike them downward, forcing them to up-B.
source: my main training partner these days is a lucas, and the yoyo edgeguard made my life so much easier.
nairing in place will destroy pk freeze, so if you don't wanna risk absorbing it, just do that in the neutral game if you're not ready to approach
whoever said "harass with PKT and let him have the ledge" might be missing out on some edge guarding technology, so here's a tip:
lucas will pretty much always tether, so you can actually charge a usmash or dsmash off the ledge so that the yoyo dips down below the stage. this will very often knock tethers off the stage and even semi-spike them downward, forcing them to up-B.
source: my main training partner these days is a lucas, and the yoyo edgeguard made my life so much easier.
JTMerrell
Smash Journeyman
I'd vote Zelda or Roy.
Akhenderson
Smash Apprentice
I actually faced against a Ganon at a recent tournament (epeen gaming tourney. worst name for a tournament...)
and my goodness was it more difficult than I thought.
I'd actually like to talk about the Ganon match up just because I had such a weird time fighting against one.
and my goodness was it more difficult than I thought.
I'd actually like to talk about the Ganon match up just because I had such a weird time fighting against one.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Wouldn't it just be like, camp PKF, profit?
SoniCraft
Smash Journeyman
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- Sonicraft98
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Ganon's down-b/side b is a pretty good punish if we get caught out of position, and camping pkfire isn't as easy as it looks. Ganon can rack up big damage in a few hits, and it's pretty easy for him to edgeguard. That said, I still think the MU would be in Ness's favor because Ness can do all that and more.
Player -0
Smash Hero
PKF beats Down B, Side B, and Fair spacing. You can fair him out of his Side B or even just grab him out of it. You can also grab him out of Down B but it's slightly more risky. You can get him offstage easy enough throws and then his recovery sucks.
Edit - Don't get grabbed though, if you do get Down-Thrown for days -> Lolfeelthepain.
Edit - Don't get grabbed though, if you do get Down-Thrown for days -> Lolfeelthepain.
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HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
This thread isn't even updating anymore. I'd post a suggestion for a matchup, but I don't know how OP would react lol
Player -0
Smash Hero
Dash Danced -> Grab/Shine/Nair->Shine->etc/Grab/Dair/anything'ed?
I think the only way it makes up for it is Ness' punish and edgeguard game, Fox gets free lasers at mid/marth range and Ness can't absorb and has to tank it or else Fox gets free aerial or anything. Ness outranges Fox a bit with Fair but Fox can just dash dance and lol at you. He's also much faster than PKF but you can still use it to make him respect some of your space (This isn't that great because he can just dash dance.
- A lot of (bad) Foxes will get greedy when you're at kill percent and fish for Up-Smashes a lot. Just be wary of this and be ready to punish this really hard (you need to)
- Make sure you try to end combos with Fox offstage, do not under any circumstance accidentally end a combo with an Up-Air so Fox just flies above the stage. F-Smash, Bair, Nair (less so), most any throws, etc.
In my opinion the MU is really bad, probably like 6-4 / 7-3 in Fox's favor.
I think the only way it makes up for it is Ness' punish and edgeguard game, Fox gets free lasers at mid/marth range and Ness can't absorb and has to tank it or else Fox gets free aerial or anything. Ness outranges Fox a bit with Fair but Fox can just dash dance and lol at you. He's also much faster than PKF but you can still use it to make him respect some of your space (This isn't that great because he can just dash dance.
- A lot of (bad) Foxes will get greedy when you're at kill percent and fish for Up-Smashes a lot. Just be wary of this and be ready to punish this really hard (you need to)
- Make sure you try to end combos with Fox offstage, do not under any circumstance accidentally end a combo with an Up-Air so Fox just flies above the stage. F-Smash, Bair, Nair (less so), most any throws, etc.
In my opinion the MU is really bad, probably like 6-4 / 7-3 in Fox's favor.
CaptinMoses
Smash Cadet
Obviously, bread and butter against Fox is Up-throw regrabs until like 35%-40%, after that, DJC Uairs should get you regrabs if you can read the DI well enough.
SoniCraft
Smash Journeyman
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Capitalizing when Fox is offstage is so important in this MU. Nair is great for interrupting side b, and dair is great against firefox. Heck, even fair is good in some situations.
I think during the neutral it's good as Ness to just constantly full hop, and then to mix up what you do during the full hop.
Options we have during full hop include:
DJC pkfire/pkfire
DJC fair
rising fair/nair
empty jump
empty double jump
Dair(best to use reactively instead of proactively)
If you wanna get bold, PKT2 is usually a surprise, just don't mess it up
I think if we constantly stay in the air it's a better positional advantage for us as Ness than for the opponent as Fox. If he goes for any up airs, then we can respond with a dair. The only problem with this strategy is that we have to make it back to the ground safely somehow, which can be difficult.
In summary, this MU is definitely best played defensively instead of offensively, but capitilization is of utmost importance.
I think during the neutral it's good as Ness to just constantly full hop, and then to mix up what you do during the full hop.
Options we have during full hop include:
DJC pkfire/pkfire
DJC fair
rising fair/nair
empty jump
empty double jump
Dair(best to use reactively instead of proactively)
If you wanna get bold, PKT2 is usually a surprise, just don't mess it up
I think if we constantly stay in the air it's a better positional advantage for us as Ness than for the opponent as Fox. If he goes for any up airs, then we can respond with a dair. The only problem with this strategy is that we have to make it back to the ground safely somehow, which can be difficult.
In summary, this MU is definitely best played defensively instead of offensively, but capitilization is of utmost importance.
I've been super busy and I'm assuming byronato has been too
I want to contribute alot on this MU but I'll get to it soon
my most important thing for the MU would be to make your movement and punish games as crispy as possible. I mean deep fried chicken crispy.
I think that If your movement and punish games are 100% on point, the MU is 60/40 fox at worst. possibly even or better depending on the stage/fox's playstyle.
make the most out of your movement to get around his approaches and make wiff punishes. DD> grab/DA/Fair are your bread and butter. Try dash jump back>b-reverse magnet if you want to mix it up
If fox camps get close but be careful of running shines after a shdl, or sh drill approaches
I'll get back with more on the MU from a fox's perspective soon.
I want to contribute alot on this MU but I'll get to it soon
my most important thing for the MU would be to make your movement and punish games as crispy as possible. I mean deep fried chicken crispy.
I think that If your movement and punish games are 100% on point, the MU is 60/40 fox at worst. possibly even or better depending on the stage/fox's playstyle.
make the most out of your movement to get around his approaches and make wiff punishes. DD> grab/DA/Fair are your bread and butter. Try dash jump back>b-reverse magnet if you want to mix it up
If fox camps get close but be careful of running shines after a shdl, or sh drill approaches
I'll get back with more on the MU from a fox's perspective soon.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Up Air outranges Ness' Dair. Also he can come from the side after baiting and Bair/Nair. Fair outranges Fox's Nair, but Fox can dash dance.
Zero May Cry
Smash Cadet
So I played Milkman's Fox in tournament yesterday and I took two stocks off him both games. (it went down to game 3 as I had taken a game off his lucas before he switched to Fox) This matchup is tough, but Ness can win it. Like Soft Serve said, this MU is a test of how crispy you can play your neutral and how well you can maximize your punishes. A good Fox will maximize the hell out of his punishes and be very hard to catch. Some things I have to say after that experience:
1. LEARN UP THROW DI. Ness dies soooo early from the up throw up air stuff. It's sad. Even if you don't die a good Fox can chain more than one up air at once and it hurts so much. Against Milkman I died at literally 69% on PS2 from him chasing me with up airs. Not fun. Make it hard for him to get these followups.
2. Be patient. I'd recommend trying not to approach Fox unless you know you can punish, which in itself is a once in a blue moon opportunity. Try doing stuff like fadeaway fair in neutral if he tries to approach. If he's SHDLing, I would maybe try magdashing to at least discourage him from spamming lasers. Getting caught in Fox's pressure is not fun.
3. MAXIMIZE YOUR PUNISHES. Seriously, this is probably the most important point. Make the MOST out of every single hit. Every single PK fire, every single grab, convert it into big damage or better yet, death. Practice the hell out of your hit confirms and conversions off of grabs and stuff, and this matchup is immediately much more doable. Better yet, if they don't ban FD (which has happened to me before), know your space animal up throw combos. If you're tight with your combos a single grab can convert into an edgeguard or death. Which leads me to my next point.
4. OPTIMIZE YOUR EDGEGUARDS. Yo-Yo is your friend. Dangling up smash off the ledge and then doing foward smash when they miss the sweet spot is a fantastic way to do this. also don't be afraid to go deep and do rising fair or rising dair.
It's a hard matchup, but I firmly believe it's doable for Ness. Just grind it out and know how to optimize. Good luck.
1. LEARN UP THROW DI. Ness dies soooo early from the up throw up air stuff. It's sad. Even if you don't die a good Fox can chain more than one up air at once and it hurts so much. Against Milkman I died at literally 69% on PS2 from him chasing me with up airs. Not fun. Make it hard for him to get these followups.
2. Be patient. I'd recommend trying not to approach Fox unless you know you can punish, which in itself is a once in a blue moon opportunity. Try doing stuff like fadeaway fair in neutral if he tries to approach. If he's SHDLing, I would maybe try magdashing to at least discourage him from spamming lasers. Getting caught in Fox's pressure is not fun.
3. MAXIMIZE YOUR PUNISHES. Seriously, this is probably the most important point. Make the MOST out of every single hit. Every single PK fire, every single grab, convert it into big damage or better yet, death. Practice the hell out of your hit confirms and conversions off of grabs and stuff, and this matchup is immediately much more doable. Better yet, if they don't ban FD (which has happened to me before), know your space animal up throw combos. If you're tight with your combos a single grab can convert into an edgeguard or death. Which leads me to my next point.
4. OPTIMIZE YOUR EDGEGUARDS. Yo-Yo is your friend. Dangling up smash off the ledge and then doing foward smash when they miss the sweet spot is a fantastic way to do this. also don't be afraid to go deep and do rising fair or rising dair.
It's a hard matchup, but I firmly believe it's doable for Ness. Just grind it out and know how to optimize. Good luck.
I have plenty of experience in the match up playing top Foxes such as Codi, M2K, and...Animal (shudder). If you haven't seen Animal's Fox in PM...He made fools out of John Numbers and Gallo.
Zero May Cry is definitely right about learning how to DI up throw up airs. DO NOT CHALLENGE IT COMING DOWN WITH DAIR. If anything, you will more than likely trade giving Fox enough time to get back up and come after you again. It's super painful and kills real early. I recommend DIing the throw in either direction for mix up and then smash DIing the uair up. I've had the most success with that. If you're stuck in the air, consider a magnet stall or two to mix up your fall speed and try to safely get back to the ground.
I disagree with Zero saying not to approach. I understand Fox has a lot of options to punish your approach, but keeping reasonable pressure on is key. Baiting approaches is also good. Force him to come to you with something punishable. The simple fact is that if Fox gets in on you, Ness has no way to break up the pressure. Nair OOS if too slow to deal with multi shines and a waveshine goes perfect distance behind your shield. I've been hit with far too many waveshine turn around grabs into uair combos. You cannot get stuck in your shield, period. You will pay for it. Keep smart pressure on and punish aggro approaches.
The next part of this is key. Ness has a super hard punish game on Fox where one grab or PKF can lead to death. I don't recommend going for more than two or three up throw regrabs, as I believe Fox can shine out at around 35%. Instead, DJC uairs are your friend. Also, at mid percents, DJC Nair into wavedash forward charged up smash is godlike. If you get Fox off stage, it's extremely important that you close out that stock. If they are coming from below the ledge, Yo-yo drop. Read the distance that they're recovering from. If they're going to sweet spot, just grab ledge, if they're going to go above the ledge, a well timed Fsmash (which I got on M2K), or Ftilt can close it out. If they are recovering above the ledge using fire fox, jump out fair during the start up into rising nair is guaranteed to super high percents and almost always kills. If they're already in the animation coming toward the stage, you can intercept with a bair, which beats fire fox if you sweet spot. If they shoot up ward, try to read the angle and where they may land and do what you can to get them off stage, nair is a good tool. Magnet ledge guards also work but they're generally less effective.
Closing notes, this match up is winnable. M2K beat me but it was hype. Fox wins the neutral hard. What makes this MU winnable is your punish game. Capitalize on double lasers. If you're within range, they are extremely punishable. Forward throw near the ledge is god like. Around 95%-100% dtilt combos into ftilt. Down smash is great. ALWAYS CROSS UP SHIELD WITH YOUR AERIALS OUTSIDE OF SHINE RANGE, otherwise, you'll eat an up smash OOS or shine OOS.
60-40 Fox.
EDIT: If you're using yo-yo to edgeguard, it's almost always better to use dsmash. If you time the pull back correctly, it can stage spike.
Zero May Cry is definitely right about learning how to DI up throw up airs. DO NOT CHALLENGE IT COMING DOWN WITH DAIR. If anything, you will more than likely trade giving Fox enough time to get back up and come after you again. It's super painful and kills real early. I recommend DIing the throw in either direction for mix up and then smash DIing the uair up. I've had the most success with that. If you're stuck in the air, consider a magnet stall or two to mix up your fall speed and try to safely get back to the ground.
I disagree with Zero saying not to approach. I understand Fox has a lot of options to punish your approach, but keeping reasonable pressure on is key. Baiting approaches is also good. Force him to come to you with something punishable. The simple fact is that if Fox gets in on you, Ness has no way to break up the pressure. Nair OOS if too slow to deal with multi shines and a waveshine goes perfect distance behind your shield. I've been hit with far too many waveshine turn around grabs into uair combos. You cannot get stuck in your shield, period. You will pay for it. Keep smart pressure on and punish aggro approaches.
The next part of this is key. Ness has a super hard punish game on Fox where one grab or PKF can lead to death. I don't recommend going for more than two or three up throw regrabs, as I believe Fox can shine out at around 35%. Instead, DJC uairs are your friend. Also, at mid percents, DJC Nair into wavedash forward charged up smash is godlike. If you get Fox off stage, it's extremely important that you close out that stock. If they are coming from below the ledge, Yo-yo drop. Read the distance that they're recovering from. If they're going to sweet spot, just grab ledge, if they're going to go above the ledge, a well timed Fsmash (which I got on M2K), or Ftilt can close it out. If they are recovering above the ledge using fire fox, jump out fair during the start up into rising nair is guaranteed to super high percents and almost always kills. If they're already in the animation coming toward the stage, you can intercept with a bair, which beats fire fox if you sweet spot. If they shoot up ward, try to read the angle and where they may land and do what you can to get them off stage, nair is a good tool. Magnet ledge guards also work but they're generally less effective.
Closing notes, this match up is winnable. M2K beat me but it was hype. Fox wins the neutral hard. What makes this MU winnable is your punish game. Capitalize on double lasers. If you're within range, they are extremely punishable. Forward throw near the ledge is god like. Around 95%-100% dtilt combos into ftilt. Down smash is great. ALWAYS CROSS UP SHIELD WITH YOUR AERIALS OUTSIDE OF SHINE RANGE, otherwise, you'll eat an up smash OOS or shine OOS.
60-40 Fox.
EDIT: If you're using yo-yo to edgeguard, it's almost always better to use dsmash. If you time the pull back correctly, it can stage spike.
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CaptinMoses
Smash Cadet
I always prefer Up Smash for the Yo-Yo against Spacies. Its got less lag and you can easily punish the panic up B again with an F Smash.
OKAY so finally making a significant contribution on the MU from a fox's perspective. Its been much more than a week but its fine lol, we've been pretty inactive.
As a fox approaching this MU, my gameplan is to treat it sort of like you would treat a marth, except that while the marth has less mobility, he has far better burst-air mobility and has a good space controlling projectile. What I want to do is get inside ness's space so he can't use PK Fire. Then I want to keep the pressure up and try to to corner ness so that he has no options to get away that I cant punish or capitalize off of. When I do get a hit, I want to convert in similar ways to other MU's. repeated drill>shines across the stage if Ness isn't DIing the shines away, drill>shine>grab/upsmash if he is. Nair planes across the stage, the goal is to keep ness low to the ground for most of my punish game in order to stay in a place where I can react to whatever ness tries to do to combo break or jump out of the string. If I can bait out and steal a double jump, I'm content with just wracking up percent with uairs and bairs as ness tries to get down.
My plans of taking stocks consist of converting into up-airs or upsmashes, or gimps. I edge guard by trying to force you to recover low, then intercepting ness's up-b with timed shines and bairs using ledge invincibility. If ness starts an up-b too close and I'm in a position to punish, I'll go for a shine spike or eating/reflecting the PK thunder.
What I want to avoid is giving ness space or stage control so that he can confortably set up fair walls and PK fire zoning. If I get caught by either, they would convert into a grab which will be 80+% or a stock if the ness is playing optimally. If possible I'll try to DI onto a top platform to get out of combos, because ness's vertical air speed is sub-par. I dont want to get tricked by wavebounced/breversed magnets making my approached whiff and netting ness a tech chase or uair. If I'm off stage, I want to try to recover high. If forced to recover low, I'm okay with eating dairs on walled stages/FD, because I'm probably a melee player who is used to SDI>teching the ledge. I'm not that worried about losing stocks from dairs unless I'm recovering from max distance at a diagonal angle.
Neutral doesn't feel free for fox unless he has complete momentum and isn't afraid of trying to pressure you and your shield. The creativity and variability of his approaches and movement will completely depend on the caliber of player you're fighting, so don't expect anything in particular.
Basically try to do what fox doesn't want you to do, which is gain the momentum through optimal punishes and good spacing. Dont let him set the pace or you'll get caught in his rhythm and never recover from the damage.
As a fox approaching this MU, my gameplan is to treat it sort of like you would treat a marth, except that while the marth has less mobility, he has far better burst-air mobility and has a good space controlling projectile. What I want to do is get inside ness's space so he can't use PK Fire. Then I want to keep the pressure up and try to to corner ness so that he has no options to get away that I cant punish or capitalize off of. When I do get a hit, I want to convert in similar ways to other MU's. repeated drill>shines across the stage if Ness isn't DIing the shines away, drill>shine>grab/upsmash if he is. Nair planes across the stage, the goal is to keep ness low to the ground for most of my punish game in order to stay in a place where I can react to whatever ness tries to do to combo break or jump out of the string. If I can bait out and steal a double jump, I'm content with just wracking up percent with uairs and bairs as ness tries to get down.
My plans of taking stocks consist of converting into up-airs or upsmashes, or gimps. I edge guard by trying to force you to recover low, then intercepting ness's up-b with timed shines and bairs using ledge invincibility. If ness starts an up-b too close and I'm in a position to punish, I'll go for a shine spike or eating/reflecting the PK thunder.
What I want to avoid is giving ness space or stage control so that he can confortably set up fair walls and PK fire zoning. If I get caught by either, they would convert into a grab which will be 80+% or a stock if the ness is playing optimally. If possible I'll try to DI onto a top platform to get out of combos, because ness's vertical air speed is sub-par. I dont want to get tricked by wavebounced/breversed magnets making my approached whiff and netting ness a tech chase or uair. If I'm off stage, I want to try to recover high. If forced to recover low, I'm okay with eating dairs on walled stages/FD, because I'm probably a melee player who is used to SDI>teching the ledge. I'm not that worried about losing stocks from dairs unless I'm recovering from max distance at a diagonal angle.
Neutral doesn't feel free for fox unless he has complete momentum and isn't afraid of trying to pressure you and your shield. The creativity and variability of his approaches and movement will completely depend on the caliber of player you're fighting, so don't expect anything in particular.
Basically try to do what fox doesn't want you to do, which is gain the momentum through optimal punishes and good spacing. Dont let him set the pace or you'll get caught in his rhythm and never recover from the damage.
Good players don't typically panic up b, although I get what you're saying. Check out 3:58:30 of this video to see what I'm talking about: http://www.twitch.tv/xfiregamingli/b/574274226
I did a brief write up in the Ness' good MU thread. I agree that it's one of his if not his hardest MU. This is what I wrote:@Bryonato can we revive this thread. Also if we do my suggestion for the next character is Samus. It's one of Ness' hardest matchups and I think a discussion of how to deal with her would be good.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Hey everyone. Sincerest apologies for sorta dropping off the face of the Earth for a few months there. Real life became a huge thing. I've been doing a lot of travelling, working, etc etc. and at the same time grew a little bored with 3.02. 3.5 has really revitalized my interest in the game and I'm back to restart this thread.
3.5 obviously has brought a lot of balance changes. Any matchups you think will be dramatically different now?
3.5 obviously has brought a lot of balance changes. Any matchups you think will be dramatically different now?
Not a problem, buddy. Good to have you back.
As for the ones that were already discussed: Mario, Link, Mewtwo, and Lucas are the big ones that jump out at me.
As for the ones that were already discussed: Mario, Link, Mewtwo, and Lucas are the big ones that jump out at me.
Zeko
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 16
I completely agree with the Mario matchup. I was playing some today and since the patch Ive been having problems with Mario
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
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- 1,979
I think in 3.5, Fox is a really hard matchup. I don't think its necessarily harder because of the pkfire change (although that was a pretty good move to resolve a stalemate dash dancing campfest), but because of hte pkt2 nerf. Now, with pkt2, if you play someone who knows what it does, they will simply run into position and charge an usmash. And let me tell you, fox's charged usmash is pretttttty ****ing good.
I think patience is the key. Just don't approach or throw stuff out. Also, learn Awestin's pkthunder gimp as it is incredibly potent against even good foxes (you up b and swoop the pkthunder down or up in front of the stage, covering the side b with the tail, and then move the head of the pkthunder towards where you think they'll up b from. ideally, you hit them on their backside. Then, they are below the stage setting up a very easy dair.
65-35 in Fox's favor. 60-40 or 55-45 in 3.02.
I think patience is the key. Just don't approach or throw stuff out. Also, learn Awestin's pkthunder gimp as it is incredibly potent against even good foxes (you up b and swoop the pkthunder down or up in front of the stage, covering the side b with the tail, and then move the head of the pkthunder towards where you think they'll up b from. ideally, you hit them on their backside. Then, they are below the stage setting up a very easy dair.
65-35 in Fox's favor. 60-40 or 55-45 in 3.02.
I like the Fox MU. I don't think it's good, but I like it. The PKT2 nerf does make a charged upsmash a good option, so it's much more important to utilize the flexibility of your recovery and either sweet spot or edge cancel. Learning to SDI up throw up air is also a key piece of this MU. The trick is to SDI the upair the direction Fox is coming from, so his momentum carries him past you. PKT edge guards are great but super risky. If Fox is far enough off stage and you can start it early, go for it, but don't do it too late, or else you're going to get punished.
The key in this MU is to make the most of your punishes. Grab up throw > regrab > upthrow > DJC uair > regrab > djc uair > djc uair > rising uair > bair is a pretty dope combo that works well if you can read their DI and there are no platforms in your way.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Yeah, for sure vertical punish combos are amazing. I just think the pkthunder gimp is extremely potent at any range whree the fox can't jump air dodge on to the stage. THere are very few answers to it from fox that don't at worst give you a tech read. Also, if you are good with your pkthunder spacing, if they recover high with firefox, you can swing the pkthunder back to you and hit yourself and catch them in the blast. It sounds really gimmicky but its actually reliable option coverage.
I usually try to fish for the gimp after I'm up a stock because I think Fox's getting gimped on stock 2 by something so insanely annoying puts you in a huge advantage in the mental game against most players. Like...fox requires a lot of consistent mental prowess to not get sloppy so putting a fox player on tilt is pretty good.
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I'd say the MU is still around 6-4 for a few reasons. Ftilt is super good, and you can land it off of a well spaced fair. That angle is horrible for Fox.
Also his Usmash nerf means he actually has to charge usmash for it to kill early.
More later, work johns.
Also his Usmash nerf means he actually has to charge usmash for it to kill early.
More later, work johns.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Gonna update the OP since Fox discussion is clearly in order 
jalued
Smash Lord
What are people's opinions of using upsmash to continue combo strings on fox?
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CaptinMoses
Smash Cadet
I've never been a fan of up smash, for me it's always been really situational
jalued
Smash Lord
The endlag is pretty minimal whilst correct timing of the move can give greater coverage and damage than the upair. It seems pretty solid to me as long as you know it won't wiff
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CaptinMoses
Smash Cadet
Yeah, I can never find the right spot to throw it in there though, they normally DI away, and don't DI well enough for me to grab them
jalued
Smash Lord
I've felt that in 3.5, ness needs to mix up his followups more than just leading into a grab. With the dthrow no longer reliably comboing into a kill at ~70%, other options such as upsmash and DJC upairs are more important for getting those bair and edgeguarding setups.