[MU] Fox

[Izanagi97]

Fox also runs extremely slow too, so use that your advantage!

Unless you are joking, this is wrong as hell.

4th fastest runner
2nd fastest walker
Fastest falling Speed
Fastest fast falling speed

 

[Zelkam]

Unless you are joking, this is wrong as hell.

4th fastest runner
2nd fastest walker
Fastest falling Speed
Fastest fast falling speed

@ A_Phoenix_Down TFW your sarcasm is so good that people take you seriously

 

[Elessar]

And to think, we all rejoiced when Sakurai announced for glory...

The memory and the pain are too fresh still.

Unless you are joking, this is wrong as hell.

4th fastest runner
2nd fastest walker
Fastest falling Speed
Fastest fast falling speed

Poe's Law is a tricky one, isn't it?

 

[Izanagi97]

@ A_Phoenix_Down TFW your sarcasm is so good that people take you seriously

The memory and the pain are too fresh still.



Poe's Law is a tricky one, isn't it?

Poe's law is why I have to outright tell someone on battlelog (that wretched hive of a forum I used to visit a lot) when I'm making fun of them or when I'm acting like an egotistical jackhole for the sake of humor rather than actually having an over inflated ego.

In real life, it is much easier for me to get away with feigning idiocy despite being a few IQ points short of a genius (though the social awkwardness is genuine.)

 

[luke_atyeo]

izanagi plz

 

[Zelkam]

Where do you people come from?

WiFi Warriors that use Link because the Event Hubs tier list says he's "teh bestest". Now you feel our pain.

Anyways, back on topic. I've been testing some things with Fox recently while working on my guide over there and I discovered that I was mistaken about his Illusion. As it turns out, he doesn't have intangibility or invincibility or anything like that on Illusion. He simply moves so fast that he creates the illusion (see what I did there?) that he has intangibility. As you can see from the image below, on frame 21 Fox moves a considerable distance. This creates what I'm calling a "dead zone" that Fox's hurtbox never touches. So any hitbox in that area between frames 20 and 21 won't hit Fox because he essentially teleports right past it.

Nothing major, but I thought it was interesting so I figured I'd post it.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Ah @ Zelkam ... Its a gift and a curse I suppose

 

[Elessar]

WiFi Warriors that use Link because the Event Hubs tier list says he's "teh bestest". Now you feel our pain.

Anyways, back on topic. I've been testing some things with Fox recently while working on my guide over there and I discovered that I was mistaken about his Illusion. As it turns out, he doesn't have intangibility or invincibility or anything like that on Illusion. He simply moves so fast that he creates the illusion (see what I did there?) that he has intangibility. As you can see from the image below, on frame 21 Fox moves a considerable distance. This creates what I'm calling a "dead zone" that Fox's hurtbox never touches. So any hitbox in that area between frames 20 and 21 won't hit Fox because he essentially teleports right past it.

Nothing major, but I thought it was interesting so I figured I'd post it.

That info is awesome Zelkam. As always, you make us all proud.

 

[Zelkam]

My Smash Corner uploaded a video Fox's double jab cancel. Figured it would be relevant to post it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTPENb_1gY

 

[RoronoaTREY15]

For Glory. They all. Come from For Glory.

The ramparts misinformation on this thread is giving me a head ache. We need to somehow differentiate the good advise from the bad advise for new readers.



This is a bad idea, all over. You don't have to force Fox to play a overly aggressive, that's how any half decent Fox will always play. Good Foxes won't even bother with the reflector mist times they'll just rush you down and bust you up. The gale has horrible start up lag, just awful, and catching it is one of the worst things you can do since it stops you dead on your tracks. I'm not saying don't use it, but never spam it because a competent player will adapt, will bait and you will be punished. An empty jump. Will work twice, max thrice before you get punished for it, so mix it up.

My advise for everyone here giving bad advise on the MU is to go offline and play at a tourney or try to play people from ladders or here who main fox. Stop playing FG so much because, trust us, FG is chock full of scrubs.

I actually play really good fox players offline, and my GSP tells me I ain't playing any scrubs.

 

[Elessar]

I actually play really good fox players offline, and my GSP tells me I ain't playing any scrubs.

That screenshot doesn't impress anyone nor proves anything. The only thing that can impress people here and earn respect is placing in offline tourneys. For Glory is filled with bad players that would not even qualify as bottom feeders in a tourney. Do understand that "filled with" does not equate to "is comprised solely of". You can beat everyone at FG (which you seem to do) and still be bad at the game.

Go offline and place at a tourney. Get actual competitive MU experience. Trust me, heck, trust us when we say that FG is bad and only forms bad habits.

 

[Lawz.]

That screenshot doesn't impress anyone nor proves anything. The only thing that can impress people here and earn respect is placing in offline tourneys. For Glory is filled with bad players that would not even qualify as bottom feeders in a tourney. Do understand that "filled with" does not equate to "is comprised solely of". You can beat everyone at FG (which you seem to do) and still be bad at the game.

Go offline and place at a tourney. Get actual competitive MU experience. Trust me, heck, trust us when we say that FG is bad and only forms bad habits.

Why go to tournaments when you can sit on your ass and play For Glory all day? Having a good W/L ratio online obviously has more merit than placing in a tournament.


































/sarcasm

 

[Zelkam]

I played against a Fox on FG recently that only knew how to fire lasers and charge Fsmash. Needless to say, I beat him pretty badly. And even the competent Fox players online aren't going be playing to their full potential because even the slightest bit of lag is enough to mess with a rush down character's game.

I get that you want to contribute @ RoronoaTREY15 but the general rule of thumb is that WiFi, in any form, shouldn't be used as a benchmark for match up discussions.

 

[Sabaca]

Another important piece of knowledge vs Fox is , that the Jab Cancel Combo True Combos him from 68% -> death with utilt if excecuted properly. On FD he starts dying to utilt at ~120%

Also i am attenting a smashfest this weekend , where i'll be playing against the best Fox of Germany , Sodrek , and share my experience in this Thread/ reflecting on the advice i posted in this thread.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Another important piece of knowledge vs Fox is , that the Jab Cancel Combo True Combos him from 68% -> death with utilt if excecuted properly. On FD he starts dying to utilt at ~120%

Frame perfect, it combos from 62%. But because of the difficulty in Jabbing consistently at almost frame perfect timing, considering Fox merely has to shield and wait for you to screw up, considering also how fast Fox falls, I recommended that it be started at around 95 to 105%, at which point, you have no doubt noticed, it is not that far from killing percents. On Fox it is not so much useful as a damage dealer as it is a good way of securing a kill towards kill percents. (That is of course, unless you have amazing timing for some reason.) I would also recommend Jabbbing beyond 120% as U-tilt is a slower move and you'll want to make sure it connects, and besides, at that point the Jabs are a lot easier so there's no fear of screwing up, so why not keep it going?
Having said that, this advantage is not to be scoffed at. Small combos are very common at lower percents, but at higher percents when characters are usually harder to combo, with the combo leading directly into a guaranteed kill? It will ease up the pressure of Fox's rush down game when he is at higher percents and maybe you won't even get to use the Jabs, but the threat of them will make a definite difference.

 

[Sabaca]

Utilt is only 1 Frame slower and starts to be true way lower than 120%. And ye where you can start depends on how good your timing is. Personally i can do it from 85%.

 

[Catana]

I actually play really good fox players offline, and my GSP tells me I ain't playing any scrubs.

You are a ****ing scrub and nobody gives a flying **** about your win ratio on a casual ass online mode. Stop waving your stupidity around and start posting things people can learn something from.

If you can.

 

[Dumbfire]

I actually play really good fox players offline, and my GSP tells me I ain't playing any scrubs.

Stop this, kid, please.

 

[link7]

You are a ****ing scrub and nobody gives a flying **** about your win ratio on a casual *** online mode. Stop waving your stupidity around and start posting things people can learn something from.

If you can.

I'd like to divert your attention to page 114 in the social thread. Have fun.

On a more serious matter, Foxes jab cancel infinite to Usmash, is there anyway for Link to DI out of it?

 

[Teh Sandwich]

jab a lot. Empty short hops to jab.
Fox can get out of most of links jab combos, so at lower percents I like to get the 3 hit jab then start charging an arrow to hit him when he gets up. Or tech chase and grab. It's an easy way a get some damage.

 

[Knife8193]

I'd like to divert your attention to page 114 in the social thread. Have fun.

On a more serious matter, Foxes jab cancel infinite to Usmash, is there anyway for Link to DI out of it?

I kinda wanted to bump this post. Is there a way to avoid that kill setup? I ask because I've fallen victim to it many times.

I also agree, I feel like this is Link's hardest MU in the game.

 

[Zelkam]

I kinda wanted to bump this post. Is there a way to avoid that kill setup? I ask because I've fallen victim to it many times.

I also agree, I feel like this is Link's hardest MU in the game.

iirc the video I posted up there (post #49) talks about how to DI out of the jab lock

 

[Knife8193]

I see. But how are Link's specific options to get out of that? I know that fastfall shield works from low to mid percents, but how does he get out of that at kill percents? Nair and DJ seem to come out too slow to avoid the Usmash.

Or is it unavoidable?

 

[Dumbfire]

lol

don't use link

 

[TropicalTaco]

Nah, it's fine. Just gimp him. You heard him. "Link has the tools to do it. He has a really good nair."

Lol...

 

[Tshadow7]

bumping this thread

I know this is basically the worst MU for Link, what do you guys think after the latest patch, with the hitstun added, is there any new ways to fight fox, toe to toe,?

I have a big tourney comming this sunday the 25th and im fighting the best fox in my country,

what strategies would you recommend using, and what I shouldnt definitly avoid??

i hate fox Upsmash

id really appreciate your help

thanks

 

[Knife8193]

Use a secondary otherwise pivot tilts, jabs, and dthrow upair are all you got.

 

[Natmax]

What is optimal DI to get out of up-tilt combo at given percents? At 0% I try to DI down and shield and it sometimes works, but at higher percents I'm just at a total loss, I can't tell whether I should DI up and jump, diagonally in some direction or just straight out, does anyone know what is optimal?

 

[Sheik_Pwns]

for me playing against fox requires a good nuetral with jabs and alot of mind games with z drops pivot up throw to Up smash combos and a a Glide cancels

 

[Natmax]

for me playing against fox requires a good nuetral with jabs and alot of mind games with z drops pivot up throw to Up smash combos and a a Glide cancels

Wait what? Up-throw to upsmash? do you mean down-throw? Up-throw doesn't combo into anything at any percent as far as I know, it can be jumped out of even at 0 with no rage.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Unlike previous games, at least Fox can't really make you approach him (because your shield blocks his lasers) and he's much lighter. He also has no throw combos or kill throws that I'm aware of, so shield is probably the preferred defense.

So something I was noticing yesterday was that Link's jab actually can send Fox downwards when launching him over the edge (because of his fall speed). If you can force him into using Fire Fox (especially if closer to the stage), it doesn't seem too hard to gimp (Level 9 Fox CPUs did this all the time for some reason lol). Obviously good players won't give you this opportunity all that easily, but it's just a thought. Dair is risky unless the Fox is near the stage or if you know the Fox has to go straight up. Otherwise probably Nair or Fair is best.

Is it considered a good idea to challenge Fox offstage as Link? Getting hit by Fire Fox doesn't seem to be the worst thing in the world, and there's always a chance of getting the DAir spike if done well.

 

[Natmax]

Yes, challenging fox offstage is literally the only way to win against a competent fox player. Unfortunately any good fox player will just sweetspot side-b after being jabbed off the stage, but this can still be easily covered with drop-off nair or 2-frame ftilt. Honestly, If fox ever goes off stage he should not come back: side b can be covered with a forward tilt (2 frame punish), covering the option leaves enough time to gimp fox once he uses firefox instead. If fox rides the stage I drop down and back-air, if he's anywhere near the stage I dair spike (I have SD'd because of this though, so don't go too ham, only do it when it's really guaranteed or the fox player hasn't seen you do it before and you're feeling lucky). In terms of the bair, I find that generally ASA right after the bair catches fox in his tech and kills early, so if they don't tech they die and if they do tech they (often) die. I've spent countless hours in the lab working on fox edgeguards since it's our worst matchup. It definitely has allowed me to beat some of the top fox players in our region (people who almost always beat Rooky for example), so it's well worth the practice. That said, if the fox plays well and you can't get him off stage...let's just say goodluck.

Also the fact that Hylian shield blocks lasers is not all that useful imho, because they actually push you back, so if the fox does decide to spam lasers and you deal with it like that, you'll get pushed off the stage, not only into a bad position, but you'll also take laser damage coming back on stage. If they're laser spamming it might be better in general to platform camp. I tend to just approach with a bombslide.

 

[Sheik_Pwns]

Wait what? Up-throw to upsmash? do you mean down-throw? Up-throw doesn't combo into anything at any percent as far as I know, it can be jumped out of even at 0 with no rage.

your right my bad lol

 

[Stryker95]

Patch 1.1.6
So I am trying to go through and optimize options out of shield, especially since we don’t have very good options. For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers). I tested every move on shield to test if they pushed Link away or how well they could space and then tested what options we had that could still reach. (Moves such as D-Smash and Dash Attack).

Link’s OOS:

Spoiler: Link's OOS

Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up
Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up
Shield Grab- 11 frame start up (12 grab frame start, 2 frame spot dodge start up for Fox, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)
Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)
U-Tilt- 15 (7 frame shield drop, 8 frame start up)
D-Smash- 16 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 9 frame start up)
D-Tilt- 18 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 11 frame start up)
F-Tilt- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)
F-Smash- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)
Dash Attack- 27 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 20 frame start up)

Bomb throw- 8 frame start up (7 frames start up, 1 frame before blast)
Note on bombs: Bombs will connect even if enemy is right in your face. They come out faster than grab, but while both are active (tether and bomb moving through the air) tether moves faster than a bomb. No move Fox has pushes Link far enough away where a bomb will not hit when a tether does.

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

Spoiler

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames Link has to punish Fox after dropping shield first.

For example, Link has a jab with a 7 frame start up. If the DD of a move is 7 or more, Link can punish Fox with this move.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames Link has to punish Fox using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.

For example, Up-B OOS has an 8 frame start-up, so if the DO is 8 or more, than Up-B OOS will punish.

I tested this in training mode 1/4 speed hold L, so these are frame perfect, keep that in mind when deciding what you want to use for your punish. I list all possible punishes considering good spacing and the fact that some moves push Link away, making some options that are fast enough not an option, I will point these out as they come.

Next are Fox’s moves:

Spoiler: Jab

Jab (1): DD: 5, DO:12
Up-B can punish Jab 1 if the fox does not input another jab, grab can only punish if Fox is literally in your face. Fox can block bomb if spaced well but if close bomb will connect.

Jab (2): DD: 9, DO: 16
Up-B, U-Smash, bomb, and grab can punish, but only if Fox does not input the rapid jab.

Rapid jab: During rapid jab you can roll away once his rapid jab pushes your shield so it no longer hits you, but if he releases soon enough his ending move can hit you, but pretty rare from my testing.

Rapid Jab ender: DD 19, DO: 26
If hit while close, Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash can hit. If rapid jab pushes you far enough away so he no longer hits your shield and then hits the shield with the Rapid jab ender (cause Fox will lean in and hit the shield) it will push you far enough away where U-Smash and U-Tilt will no longer work, but all else will).

Spoiler: F-Tilt

F-Tilt: DD: 5 DO: 12
If close, Up-B, Bomb, Grab, and U-Smash will connect but Fox can push Link far enough away so he can no longer punish.

Spoiler: D-Tilt

D-Tilt: DD: 7 DO: 14
Up-Tilt, Bomb, Jab, U-Smash, Up-B, and Grab can usually punish, but if Fox barely hits the shield, only grab can punish.

Spoiler: U-Tilt

U-Tilt: DD: 10 DO: 17
If Fox is facing you, Up-B, Grab, Jab, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and D-Smash can punish. If his back is facing you, Up-B, Bomb, and Grab will punish but all others can be spaced out to where U-Smash, U-Tilt, Jab and D-Smash won’t hit.

Spoiler: Dash Attack

Dash Attack: DD: 19 DO: 26
If he stays in front of you, Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash will punish. If Fox goes through you, 2nd hit of D-Smash will not hit nor will the back hitbox of Up-Tilt or Up-Smash. Turn around all other may hit.

Spoiler: F-Smash

F-Smash: DD: 15 DO: 22
If he stays in front of you, Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash will punish. If Fox goes through you, 2nd hit of D-Smash will not hit. Turn around F-tilt will not hit as Fox can perfect shield it but turnaround F-Smash can hit if frame perfect. Turn around all others can hit.

Spoiler: D-Smash

D-Smash: DD: 29 DO:36
F-Tilt, Bomb, F-Smash, D-Smash, and grab will punish. D-Smash will push Link far enough away that many other options will not reach, like U-Tilt, Up-Smash, D-Tilt, Up-B, and jab.

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Up-Smash: DD: 29 DO: 36
F-Tilt, Bomb, F-Smash, D-Smash, and grab will punish. Up-Smash will push Link far enough away that many other options will not reach, like U-Tilt, Up-Smash, D-Tilt, Up-B, and jab.

Aerials: This is tricky. Aerials will vary because of when they hit the shield (on top, the middle, etc.), sweetspot or sourspot, autocancelling, or if the opponent screws up or not. I will just place the DD and DO as well as landing lag and auto-cancels at the end of moves. (Note: If auto cancelled, Fox suffers only 4 frames of landing lag.)

Spoiler: Nair

Nair: DD: -3/-1 DO: 4/6 (strong hit/weak hit). Landing lag:11 Auto-cancel: 32>
Impossible to punish if Fox plays perfectly.

Spoiler: Fair

Fair: DD: 17 DO 24. Landing Lag: 27 Auto-cancel: 45>
Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, Up-Smash can punish. If Fox spaces it well, U-Tilt and Up-Smash will miss as Fox is too far away.

Spoiler: Bair

Bair: DD: -1 DO: 6 Landing lag: 15 Auto-cancel: 15>
Impossible to punish if Fox plays perfectly.

Spoiler: Dair

Dair: DD: 7 DO: 14 Landing lag: 25 Auto-cancel: 29>
Jab, Bomb, Up-B, Grab, U-Smash can punish.

Spoiler: Upair

Upair: DD:11/7 DO:18/14 Landing Lag: 22 Auto-Cancel: 25>
Depending on which hit connects gives a different situation. Jab, Bomb, Grab, Up-Smash, Up-B can punish on all hits so long as it is not auto cancelled.

Specials

Spoiler: Blaster

Blaster: DD: 13 DO 20
Jab, U-tilt, D-Smash, D-Tilt, Grab, Up-B, Up-Smash. This is done as if the laser hits your shield and Fox begins to put away his weapon.

Spoiler: Illusion

Illusion (Grounded): DD: 33 DO: 40
If they land near you, in front or pass through your shield and land closely behind, literally anything can punish. If he is just out of F-Tilt range and begins the Illusion, you can chase him out of shield and punish with a dash-attack, but can be difficult to hit.

Illusion (Aerial): Treated as an aerial, 16 frames landing lag.
Depends on spacing, Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, Up-B or grab can punish. Other wise chase down and go for a read or just accept the new neutral.

Spoiler: Reflector (RIP Shine)

Reflector: DD: 24 DO: 31
Horrible on shield. If just one hits shield it will push you out of the way for another. Any move can punish.

Spoiler: Firefox

Firefox: DD: 31 DO: 38
If close and goes horizontally, cannot punish as landing lag is 20 frames. But it has so much start up you can hit him out of it. If he does it right next to you, the flames can hit you so pivot grab, pivot F-Tilt, whatever. If at medium range you can punish with dash attack.

 

[ZSaberLink]

So I am trying to go through and optimize options out of shield, especially since we don’t have very good options.
Link’s OOS:

Spoiler: Link's OOS

Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up

Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up

Shield Grab- 14 frame start up (12 grab frame start, 2 frame spot dodge start up for Fox, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)

Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)

Nair- 14 frame start up (7 frame jump squat, 7 frame start up) (Same speed as jab, harder to do perfectly, and has less range)

Bomb throw- 20 frames start up.

Fair (for anyone who thinks this could be an option)- 33 frame start up (7 frame jump squat, 2nd hit comes out frame 26, 1st hit won’t hit because Fox is too short. This is also kinda hard to hit, and because it is so slow, I will not consider this an option, but it may be decent in some incredibly rare situations for those of you who like to find those.)

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

Spoiler

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many at most frames someone can punish Fox when dropping shield first.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many at most someone can punish Fox using a shield grab or jump out of shield (including jump cancelled moves).

Under each move I list all possibilities and then state my suggestion. Keep in mind that these tests were done in training mode at 1/4 speed hold L, meaning done at nearly frame perfect timings. So don't think that we can do more than we can, use the DD and DO to make your own decisions on what may be best (but look for the exceptions I point out).

Next are Fox’s moves:

Spoiler: Jab

Jab (1): DD: 5, DO:-12 Up-B can punish Jab 1 if the fox does not input another jab, grab can only punish if Fox is literally in your face, don’t ever expect to punish this.

Wait.

Jab (2): DD: 9, DO: 16 Up-B, U-Smash, and grab can punish, but Fox will probably input the rapid jab, don’t bother trying to punish unless you condition him to not rapid jab (by punishing the rapid jab ender).

Wait.

Rapid jab: During rapid jab you can roll away once his rapid jab pushes your shield so it no longer hits you, but if he releases soon enough his ending move can hit you, but pretty rare from my testing.

Wait unless it stops hitting your shield, then roll or hope they end the move so you can punish

Rapid Jab ender: DD 19, DO: 26 If hit while close, Jab, F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash can hit. If rapid jab pushes you far enough away so he no longer hits your shield and then hits the shield with the Rapid jab ender (cause Fox will lean in and hit the shield) it will push you far enough away where U-Smash and U-Tilt will no longer work, but all else will).

Grab, D-Smash or Jab, but Grab probably best.

Spoiler: F-Tilt

F-Tilt: DD: 5 DO: 12 If close, Up-B, Grab, and U-Smash will connect but Fox can push Link far enough away so he can no longer punish.

Reset neutral.

Spoiler: D-Tilt

D-Tilt: DD: 7 DO: 14 Up-Tilt, Jab, U-Smash, Up-B, and Grab can usually punish, but if Fox barely hits the shield, only grab can punish.

Reset neutral is best bet, but grab may work if you are good with timing.

Spoiler: U-Tilt

U-Tilt: DD: 10 DO: 17 If Fox is facing you, Up-B, Grab, Jab, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and D-Smash can punish. If his back is facing you, Up-B and grab will punish but all others can be spaced out to where U-Smash, U-Tilt, Jab and D-Smash won’t hit.

Grab or Up-B. Reset neutral also okay.

Spoiler: Dash Attack

Dash Attack: DD: 19 DO: 26 If he stays in front of you, Jab, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash will punish. If Fox goes through you, 2nd hit of D-Smash will not hit nor Up-Tilt or Up-Smash. Turn around all other may hit but can be difficult to do.

If in front, Up-Smash (best damage and knockback) or grab (for follow-ups). If behind, Up-B may reach but best option is reset neutral.

Spoiler: F-Smash

F-Smash: DD: 15 DO: 22 If he stays in front of you, Jab, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash will punish. If Fox goes through you, 2nd hit of D-Smash will not hit. Turn around F-tilt and F-Smash will not hit.

Grab or Up-Smash if in front, Up-B if behind.

Spoiler: D-Smash

D-Smash: DD: 29 DO:36 F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, and grab will punish. D-Smash will push Link far enough away that many other options will not reach, like U-Tilt, Up-Smash, D-Tilt, Up-B, and jab.

F-Tilt or F-Smash or grab.

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Up-Smash: DD: 29 DO: 36 F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, and grab will punish. Up-Smash will push Link far enough away that many other options will not reach, like U-Tilt, Up-Smash, D-Tilt, Up-B, and jab.

F-Tilt, F-Smash, or grab.

Aerials: This is looked at for if they hit your shield and then land, suffering landing lag. Keep in mind that the landing lag can be auto-cancelled for all his aerials into hard landing lag, which is 5 frames for Fox.

Spoiler: Nair

Nair: Nair is incredibly safe on shield, get out of there.

Spoiler: Fair

Fair: DD: 17 DO 24Jab, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, Up-Smash can punish. If Fox spaces it well, U-Tilt and Up-Smash will miss. Auto-cancels after frame 45

Grab, D-Smash, Jab or Up-B best options.

Spoiler: Bair

Bair: Not happening bud.

Spoiler: Dair

Dair: DD: 7 DO: 14 Jab, Up-B, Grab, U-Smash can punish. Auto-cancels after frame 29.

Risky, most foxes will auto-cancel and may go for a follow up like Up-Smash. Reset neutral.

Spoiler: Upair

Upair: Nope.

Specials

Spoiler: Blaster

Blaster: DD: 13 DO 20 Jab, U-tilt, D-Smash, D-Tilt, Grab, Up-B, Up-Smash. But the better question is why are you not using the Hylian Shield?

Hylian shield and do whatever.

Spoiler: Illusion

Illusion: DD: 33 DO: 40 If stupid enough to land near you, in front or pass through your shield and land closely behind, literally anything can punish. Go grab a donut, use the latrine and then punish with anything you feel like. If he is just out of F-Tilt range and begins the Illusion, you can chase him out of shield and punish with a dash-attack, but can be difficult to hit.

Spoiler: Reflector (RIP Shine)

Reflector: DD: 24 DO: 31 Horrible on shield. If just one hits shield it will push you out of the way for another.

Any move can punish.

Spoiler: Firefox

Firefox: DD: 31 DO: 38 If close and goes horizontally, cannot punish. But it has so much start up you can hit him out of it. If he does it right next to you, the flames can hit you so pivot grab, pivot F-Tilt, whatever. If at medium range you can punish with dash attack.

I hope I didn’t goof up. If I did, please inform me so I can fix myself for the next MU I look at.

I'm pretty sure that bomb throw isn't 20 frames? It's about 6-7 when I'm testing it, and probably 7 because of this: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/ItemTossForward

 

[Stryker95]

I'm pretty sure that bomb throw isn't 20 frames? It's about 6-7 when I'm testing it, and probably 7 because of this: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/ItemTossForward

Thanks. Will revise and send to Fox is Openly Deceptive for approval before posting.
Edit: Bomb throw has 7 frames start-up and one frame before the bomb becomes active, so bombs will be 8 frame OOS.
Edit2: Ok, the above post has been fixed. All should be correct now.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So I am trying to go through and optimize options out of shield, especially since we don’t have very good options. For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers). I tested every move on shield to test if they pushed Link away or how well they could space and then tested what options we had that could still reach. (Moves such as D-Smash and Dash Attack).

Link’s OOS:

Spoiler: Link's OOS

Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up


Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up


Shield Grab- 11 frame start up (12 grab frame start, 2 frame spot dodge start up for Fox, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)


Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)
U-Tilt- 15 (7 frame shield drop, 8 frame start up)
D-Smash- 16 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 9 frame start up)
D-Tilt- 18 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 11 frame start up)
F-Tilt- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)
F-Smash- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)
Dash Attack- 27 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 20 frame start up)

Bomb throw- 8 frame start up (7 frames start up, 1 frame before blast)
Note on bombs: Bombs will connect even if enemy is right in your face. They come out faster than grab, but while both are active (tether and bomb moving through the air) tether moves faster than a bomb. No move Fox has pushes Link far enough away where a bomb will not hit when a tether does.

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

Spoiler

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames Link has to punish Fox after dropping shield first.

For example, Link has a jab with a 7 frame start up. If the DD of a move is 7 or more, Link can punish Fox with this move.


DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames Link has to punish Fox using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.

For example, Up-B OOS has an 8 frame start-up, so if the DO is 8 or more, than Up-B OOS will punish.

I tested this in training mode 1/4 speed hold L, so these are frame perfect, keep that in mind when deciding what you want to use for your punish. I list all possible punishes considering good spacing and the fact that some moves push Link away, making some options that are fast enough not an option, I will point these out as they come.

Next are Fox’s moves:

Spoiler: Jab

Jab (1): DD: 5, DO:12
Up-B can punish Jab 1 if the fox does not input another jab, grab can only punish if Fox is literally in your face. Fox can block bomb if spaced well but if close bomb will connect.

Jab (2): DD: 9, DO: 16
Up-B, U-Smash, bomb, and grab can punish, but only if Fox does not input the rapid jab.

Rapid jab: During rapid jab you can roll away once his rapid jab pushes your shield so it no longer hits you, but if he releases soon enough his ending move can hit you, but pretty rare from my testing.

Rapid Jab ender: DD 19, DO: 26
If hit while close, Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash can hit. If rapid jab pushes you far enough away so he no longer hits your shield and then hits the shield with the Rapid jab ender (cause Fox will lean in and hit the shield) it will push you far enough away where U-Smash and U-Tilt will no longer work, but all else will).

Spoiler: F-Tilt

F-Tilt: DD: 5 DO: 12
If close, Up-B, Bomb, Grab, and U-Smash will connect but Fox can push Link far enough away so he can no longer punish.

Spoiler: D-Tilt

D-Tilt: DD: 7 DO: 14
Up-Tilt, Bomb, Jab, U-Smash, Up-B, and Grab can usually punish, but if Fox barely hits the shield, only grab can punish.

Spoiler: U-Tilt

U-Tilt: DD: 10 DO: 17
If Fox is facing you, Up-B, Grab, Jab, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and D-Smash can punish. If his back is facing you, Up-B, Bomb, and Grab will punish but all others can be spaced out to where U-Smash, U-Tilt, Jab and D-Smash won’t hit.

Spoiler: Dash Attack

Dash Attack: DD: 19 DO: 26
If he stays in front of you, Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash will punish. If Fox goes through you, 2nd hit of D-Smash will not hit nor will the back hitbox of Up-Tilt or Up-Smash. Turn around all other may hit.

Spoiler: F-Smash

F-Smash: DD: 15 DO: 22
If he stays in front of you, Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, and Up-Smash will punish. If Fox goes through you, 2nd hit of D-Smash will not hit. Turn around F-tilt will not hit as Fox can perfect shield it but turnaround F-Smash can hit if frame perfect. Turn around all others can hit.

Spoiler: D-Smash

D-Smash: DD: 29 DO:36
F-Tilt, Bomb, F-Smash, D-Smash, and grab will punish. D-Smash will push Link far enough away that many other options will not reach, like U-Tilt, Up-Smash, D-Tilt, Up-B, and jab.

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Up-Smash: DD: 29 DO: 36
F-Tilt, Bomb, F-Smash, D-Smash, and grab will punish. Up-Smash will push Link far enough away that many other options will not reach, like U-Tilt, Up-Smash, D-Tilt, Up-B, and jab.

Aerials: This is tricky. Aerials will vary because of when they hit the shield (on top, the middle, etc.), sweetspot or sourspot, autocancelling, or if the opponent screws up or not. I will just place the DD and DO as well as landing lag and auto-cancels at the end of moves. (Note: If auto cancelled, Fox suffers only 4 frames of landing lag.)

Spoiler: Nair

Nair: DD: -3/-1 DO: 4/6 (strong hit/weak hit). Landing lag:11 Auto-cancel: 32>
Impossible to punish if Fox plays perfectly.

Spoiler: Fair

Fair: DD: 17 DO 24. Landing Lag: 27 Auto-cancel: 45>
Jab, Bomb, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-B, Grab, Up-Smash can punish. If Fox spaces it well, U-Tilt and Up-Smash will miss as Fox is too far away.

Spoiler: Bair

Bair: DD: -1 DO: 6 Landing lag: 15 Auto-cancel: 15>
Impossible to punish if Fox plays perfectly.

Spoiler: Dair

Dair: DD: 7 DO: 14 Landing lag: 25 Auto-cancel: 29>
Jab, Bomb, Up-B, Grab, U-Smash can punish.

Spoiler: Upair

Upair: DD:11/7 DO:18/14 Landing Lag: 22 Auto-Cancel: 25>
Depending on which hit connects gives a different situation. Jab, Bomb, Grab, Up-Smash, Up-B can punish on all hits so long as it is not auto cancelled.

Specials

Spoiler: Blaster

Blaster: DD: 13 DO 20
Jab, U-tilt, D-Smash, D-Tilt, Grab, Up-B, Up-Smash. This is done as if the laser hits your shield and Fox begins to put away his weapon.

Spoiler: Illusion

Illusion (Grounded): DD: 33 DO: 40
If they land near you, in front or pass through your shield and land closely behind, literally anything can punish. If he is just out of F-Tilt range and begins the Illusion, you can chase him out of shield and punish with a dash-attack, but can be difficult to hit.

Illusion (Aerial): Treated as an aerial, 16 frames landing lag.
Depends on spacing, Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, Up-B or grab can punish. Other wise chase down and go for a read or just accept the new neutral.

Spoiler: Reflector (RIP Shine)

Reflector: DD: 24 DO: 31
Horrible on shield. If just one hits shield it will push you out of the way for another. Any move can punish.

Spoiler: Firefox

Firefox: DD: 31 DO: 38
If close and goes horizontally, cannot punish as landing lag is 20 frames. But it has so much start up you can hit him out of it. If he does it right next to you, the flames can hit you so pivot grab, pivot F-Tilt, whatever. If at medium range you can punish with dash attack.

Just so you guys know, this post ^ has been edited and given the official Foxy stamp of approval. It's a pretty good resource. It just goes to show that if you're mentally prepared to take a certain move on your shield then immediately punish it, our shield game isn't as bad as we thought. I look forward to seeing what we can do against other characters too.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Just so you guys know, this post ^ has been edited and given the official Foxy stamp of approval. It's a pretty good resource. It just goes to show that if you're mentally prepared to take a certain move on your shield then immediately punish it, our shield game isn't as bad as we thought. I look forward to seeing what we can do against other characters too.

Btw Fox, is there a nice resource to show what can be done out of shield without shield dropping? When experimenting I could definitely grab, jump or throw an item (bomb), but I personally wasn't able to Up-B and wasn't sure why.

Edit: You can jump cancel an Up-B? Interesting.

 

[Knife8193]

You can punish Fox's dash attack with an fsmash? I didn't know it was that unsafe. If you really can punish it and the cross up version, that would discourage a lot of dash attack pressure. Good write up

 

[Stryker95]

You can punish Fox's dash attack with an fsmash? I didn't know it was that unsafe. If you really can punish it and the cross up version, that would discourage a lot of dash attack pressure. Good write up

The DD is 19 frames and F-Smash comes out frame 15, if you input F-Smash within 4 frames then it can punish. It can be difficult to do but is possible.